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I have never heard of a pronunciation gi-haris. Can anyone confirm this to be accurate? Ben MacDui 08:31, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I now note that this information was provided by User:195.93.32.13 who was later blocked for contributing childish vandalism. I will remove the reference. Ben MacDui 09:00, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I have added a paragraph outlining the case for Gigha being the site of the Battle of Deglon in 574 and the possible seat of the Dalriadan king, Conall mac Comgall.
Any comments are welcome. Karl Craig 02:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Alan Orr Anderson's Early Sources of Scottish History (I, 78) doesn't give a gloss for Delgu/Deloch/Teloch. Marjorie Ogilvie Anderson's Kings and Kingship in Early Scotland (149() says the battle was in Kintyre and presumes that the aggressor was probably Báetán mac Cairill. Bannerman's Studies in the History of Dalriada (80) also places the battle in Kintyre. The Annals agree on Kintyre as well: "Cath Delgon a Cínd Tire"; "Bellum Telocho i Ciunn Tire". Watson's The Place-Names of Celtic Scotland (497) says delgu is "thorny place". If Skene thought Delgu was on Gigha, that's worth mentioning, but, like a lot of his geographical guess-work, it doesn't seem to have left much impression. The Onomasticon Godelicum at CELT/Documents of Ireland ( http://www.ucc.ie:8080/cocoon/doi/locus/D which rarely works but is cached by Google) gives "Delgon: Cath D. in Cenn-tíre, Cps. 67; ¶ cath Delgan in Kantire, Of. 473; ¶ cath Delgenn .i. Telocho i Ciunntíre, Adr. 371." That's helpful! Cheers, Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Not from scratch as BM has already improved it greatly.
Sections
Pretty comprehensive improvement - needs a bit more on the modern era and economy to finish it off. Could you fill in the blanks on the "Roberts (1999)" in the refs section? Ben Mac Dui 07:53, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
About the Ardminish image, that is not a palm tree. You can see these things masquerading as such in many resorts in the British Isles, including freezing ones! The tree in question is more closely related to the lily family than palms. It's called the New Zealand Cabbage Tree. They're often misidentified as palms - in the IOM they call them "Manx Palms". They're nothing of the sort - just a marketer's dream!-- MacRusgail ( talk) 13:31, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
"It is also widely planted as an ornamental tree, in New Zealand and also in western Europe (including the British Isles) and the Northwest coast of the United States[1]. Because it tolerates cold weather better than many other tree-sized monocots, this plant is often planted by people wishing to give a tropical, exotic look to their yards or gardens. The overall visual effect is said by many to create a view reminiscent of a palm tree (it is occasionally even mis-named "Cornish palm", "Torbay palm" or "Manx palm" in the British Isles due to its extensive use within Torbay and as the official symbol of that area under its alternative identity, the English Riviera). " Quoth MacRusgail and copied here by Ben Mac Dui 15:06, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
The Norse is not unknown. Czerkawaska (2006) pp 35-36 has "It has long been accepted that the name of the island, Gigha, or as it appears on some of the old maps, Gega, is derived from the Norse invaders of the island, who called the place Gudey, meaning either God's island or the Island of the Good Harbour." A Norse name is attested by H-Smith, Murray, Keay and Mac an Tailleir as well.
I have to agree with Akerbeltz [1] that the Sheila na Gig idea is little more than speculation. Czerkawaska herself calls the possibility "a remote and contentious one!" as now included in the footnote, although I agree this was not clear in the original text. Ben Mac Dui 10:56, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
LOL a lot of things said on Wikipedia pages about etymology make me suspicious. It's perhaps the one consistently dark spot that I've come across because every foolish etymology ever proposed in a leaflet or book sooner or later finds its way onto here. It's ... upsetting at times. And even in Old French a g around u would still be /g/. I personally have no attestation of the Norse place name but my material on Norse is thin. I remember a similar discussion when we were doing Skye and we left a note on a Norse specialists page who then actually came up with an occurrence of skið in a sage. Perhaps we should do the same? Akerbeltz ( talk) 11:31, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
I have a different copy of the Orkneyinga Saga, I have the Pálsson and Edwards (1981) Penguin classic version which is based on the 1978 Hogarth Press edition. Sorry, but quoting a book without a page number (or in this case a chapter number / Genealogy / Glossary) does not provide an adequate WP:Verify of anything, especially if its not linked to anything in particular (apart from the Info box). From a process of elimination I could work out that in was not intended to verify the OS coordinates and/or the 2001 population and/or the Local Authority; but I am still unsure what it is being quoted. The names Gigha, Guðey and Gjáey do not appear in the Pálsson and Edwards version. Re-looking at your reply and the link to Wikipedia:WikiProject Scottish Islands/Orkneyinga Saga, it appears to be an unstated use of the maps in the Joseph Anderson's edition that is being referenced (if it is, then specifically say so). The Pálsson and Edwards edition has only three maps: Orkney and Caithness, The Faroes - West Norway - British Isles, and Shetland; and the "GB" map is too small to name Gigha. Do you really think that this "uncertainty" is compliant with WP:Verify?
Hm, I know it's a reference but I think we need to be *very* careful here. A lot of tourist guides are utterly hopeless when it comes to etymology. They just like a good story. I think the only way to resolve this is to find an actual mention of it in some Norse text. Let's face it - it may be solid research tha Jemima did, or she may have just looked it up on Wikipedia... Akerbeltz ( talk) 17:51, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Didn't these people know how to be concise LOL found it. It's on page 573 (of the original page numbering) of the Norse link above, and the name given is Guðey. Can someone else check though - it looks like a nominative to me but my Norse is ... patchy. Akerbeltz ( talk) 00:13, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
There's an island "off Kintyre" (Satir) called Guðey at § 328, line 8 ( trans. "Then King Hakon sailed south long Kintyre and lay at the place that is called Gigha") and § 329, line 7 (trans "Then they went out under Gigha, to King Hakon"). That's clearly Gigha (supported by name and geography), and our Norse name is not in doubt, independent of the etymology or how it is spelled in modern Gaelic. This can be separated from the etymology now. :) So is there any objection to listing Guðey as the Old Norse name in the infobox with reference clearly indicating the source and modern interpretation? I don't think this is too much for a GA. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk) 12:12, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
I've put the collapsible infobox in there with the Etymology section that gives the pronunciation of all the Gaelic words that don't have their own pages. Putting the IPA into the text for each Gaelic name, phrase or place name would just look totally ugly. I'll try and make sound files too. They're currently in alphabetical order - anyone have any thoughts on that? Akerbeltz ( talk) 15:44, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: Moved. ( non-admin closure) Cwmhiraeth ( talk) 09:54, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
Gigha →
Isle of Gigha – Per
WP:WIAN this is the English name ("Giogha" is the Scottish Gaelic name) per the
Ordnance Survey. Thus being
consistent with the OS in other cases. As to other sources that use "Isle of Gigha" are
its website,
Google Maps,
Southern Hebrides and
Walkhighlands. Although the name is tautological there are many other places that are also tautological, see
List of tautological place names#Islands and per
WP:USENGLISH this is acceptable (note that neighboring
Cara Island is tautological). Since there don't appear to be other uses of "
Gigha", "Gigha" can continue to redirect to the island like
Skye does. This move was reverted in
2006 because "all the other Hebrides articles exclude the 'Isle of ' part. also this broke the box at the bottom." but that's not the case (for example
Isle of Skye) and like that it will be piped and defaultsorted. It was formerly "Gigha Island" as can be seen on
old OS maps but per
WP:MODERNPLACENAME and
WP:NAMECHANGES it is now "Isle of Gigha".
Crouch, Swale (
talk)
12:10, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
Hello,
I looked into the source saying that Gigha was a Seat of Power for Conall mac Comgall, and it doesn't seem to be saying that at all. It identifies the battlefield with Eilean da Ghallagan, which is a known island in West Tarbert Bay. Perhaps I have missed something, but I think this section should probably be removed or editted. If there is a case for believing Gigha was a Dal Riatan seat of power, it needs a better source.
(This is my first time editting on wikipedia, so apologies if I have not placed this in the right location). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pjhrandall16 ( talk • contribs) 22:27, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for this input - I will check it out in due course. Meantime I will have to recover from the dreadful page move which I missed above. Ben Mac Dui 15:33, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. —usernamekiran (talk) 23:16, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
Isle of Gigha →
Gigha – There are various main sources for articles about Scottish islands. The primary one is Haswell-Smith, Hamish (2004).
The Scottish Islands. Edinburgh: Canongate.
ISBN
978-1-84195-454-7. who has a chapter sub-section No 2.3 starting on page 37 called "Gigha".
Ben
Mac
Dui 15:10, 10 August 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. —
Amakuru (
talk)
12:20, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
The following books listed as regular sources at WP:GOODISLE refer to "Gigha":
This title from that page equivocates a little
There are no books that I have on that page that so refer to "Isle of Gigha". In addition, the following refer to "Gigha".
In other words, most of the sources listed as refs in the article use "Gigha". It is quite true that the Ordnance Survey have chosen to use "Isle of Gigha" I don't have any idea why they have done that (or for Skye). It is also true that the local development trust is called "Isle of Gigha Heritage Trust" but you will also notice that after introducing themselves the next section on their home page is "About Gigha" and that both "Gigha" and "Isle of Gigha" are liberaly sprinkled about.
The only reference on JSTOR I could find is "An Account of the Fungi of Arran, Gigha and Kintyre". P. M. Kirk, B. M. Spooner. Kew Bulletin, Vol. 38, No. 4 (1984), pp. 503-597
So if you do few web searches "Isle of Gigha" looks good. If you examine the literature in print about the topic this is at best an occassional use. Even web searches to more reliable sources that are less interested in marketing such as the Gazetteer have "Gigha". In other words "Isle of Gigha" is nowhere near being the WP:WIAN and (unlike e.g. Mull) there is no need to disambiguate. Respectfully, Ben Mac Dui 15:10, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
Should we include a reference to the island being the location for this TV series? AndyCPrivate ( talk) 21:30, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
![]() | Gigha has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||
|
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
I have never heard of a pronunciation gi-haris. Can anyone confirm this to be accurate? Ben MacDui 08:31, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I now note that this information was provided by User:195.93.32.13 who was later blocked for contributing childish vandalism. I will remove the reference. Ben MacDui 09:00, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I have added a paragraph outlining the case for Gigha being the site of the Battle of Deglon in 574 and the possible seat of the Dalriadan king, Conall mac Comgall.
Any comments are welcome. Karl Craig 02:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Alan Orr Anderson's Early Sources of Scottish History (I, 78) doesn't give a gloss for Delgu/Deloch/Teloch. Marjorie Ogilvie Anderson's Kings and Kingship in Early Scotland (149() says the battle was in Kintyre and presumes that the aggressor was probably Báetán mac Cairill. Bannerman's Studies in the History of Dalriada (80) also places the battle in Kintyre. The Annals agree on Kintyre as well: "Cath Delgon a Cínd Tire"; "Bellum Telocho i Ciunn Tire". Watson's The Place-Names of Celtic Scotland (497) says delgu is "thorny place". If Skene thought Delgu was on Gigha, that's worth mentioning, but, like a lot of his geographical guess-work, it doesn't seem to have left much impression. The Onomasticon Godelicum at CELT/Documents of Ireland ( http://www.ucc.ie:8080/cocoon/doi/locus/D which rarely works but is cached by Google) gives "Delgon: Cath D. in Cenn-tíre, Cps. 67; ¶ cath Delgan in Kantire, Of. 473; ¶ cath Delgenn .i. Telocho i Ciunntíre, Adr. 371." That's helpful! Cheers, Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Not from scratch as BM has already improved it greatly.
Sections
Pretty comprehensive improvement - needs a bit more on the modern era and economy to finish it off. Could you fill in the blanks on the "Roberts (1999)" in the refs section? Ben Mac Dui 07:53, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
About the Ardminish image, that is not a palm tree. You can see these things masquerading as such in many resorts in the British Isles, including freezing ones! The tree in question is more closely related to the lily family than palms. It's called the New Zealand Cabbage Tree. They're often misidentified as palms - in the IOM they call them "Manx Palms". They're nothing of the sort - just a marketer's dream!-- MacRusgail ( talk) 13:31, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
"It is also widely planted as an ornamental tree, in New Zealand and also in western Europe (including the British Isles) and the Northwest coast of the United States[1]. Because it tolerates cold weather better than many other tree-sized monocots, this plant is often planted by people wishing to give a tropical, exotic look to their yards or gardens. The overall visual effect is said by many to create a view reminiscent of a palm tree (it is occasionally even mis-named "Cornish palm", "Torbay palm" or "Manx palm" in the British Isles due to its extensive use within Torbay and as the official symbol of that area under its alternative identity, the English Riviera). " Quoth MacRusgail and copied here by Ben Mac Dui 15:06, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
The Norse is not unknown. Czerkawaska (2006) pp 35-36 has "It has long been accepted that the name of the island, Gigha, or as it appears on some of the old maps, Gega, is derived from the Norse invaders of the island, who called the place Gudey, meaning either God's island or the Island of the Good Harbour." A Norse name is attested by H-Smith, Murray, Keay and Mac an Tailleir as well.
I have to agree with Akerbeltz [1] that the Sheila na Gig idea is little more than speculation. Czerkawaska herself calls the possibility "a remote and contentious one!" as now included in the footnote, although I agree this was not clear in the original text. Ben Mac Dui 10:56, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
LOL a lot of things said on Wikipedia pages about etymology make me suspicious. It's perhaps the one consistently dark spot that I've come across because every foolish etymology ever proposed in a leaflet or book sooner or later finds its way onto here. It's ... upsetting at times. And even in Old French a g around u would still be /g/. I personally have no attestation of the Norse place name but my material on Norse is thin. I remember a similar discussion when we were doing Skye and we left a note on a Norse specialists page who then actually came up with an occurrence of skið in a sage. Perhaps we should do the same? Akerbeltz ( talk) 11:31, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
I have a different copy of the Orkneyinga Saga, I have the Pálsson and Edwards (1981) Penguin classic version which is based on the 1978 Hogarth Press edition. Sorry, but quoting a book without a page number (or in this case a chapter number / Genealogy / Glossary) does not provide an adequate WP:Verify of anything, especially if its not linked to anything in particular (apart from the Info box). From a process of elimination I could work out that in was not intended to verify the OS coordinates and/or the 2001 population and/or the Local Authority; but I am still unsure what it is being quoted. The names Gigha, Guðey and Gjáey do not appear in the Pálsson and Edwards version. Re-looking at your reply and the link to Wikipedia:WikiProject Scottish Islands/Orkneyinga Saga, it appears to be an unstated use of the maps in the Joseph Anderson's edition that is being referenced (if it is, then specifically say so). The Pálsson and Edwards edition has only three maps: Orkney and Caithness, The Faroes - West Norway - British Isles, and Shetland; and the "GB" map is too small to name Gigha. Do you really think that this "uncertainty" is compliant with WP:Verify?
Hm, I know it's a reference but I think we need to be *very* careful here. A lot of tourist guides are utterly hopeless when it comes to etymology. They just like a good story. I think the only way to resolve this is to find an actual mention of it in some Norse text. Let's face it - it may be solid research tha Jemima did, or she may have just looked it up on Wikipedia... Akerbeltz ( talk) 17:51, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Didn't these people know how to be concise LOL found it. It's on page 573 (of the original page numbering) of the Norse link above, and the name given is Guðey. Can someone else check though - it looks like a nominative to me but my Norse is ... patchy. Akerbeltz ( talk) 00:13, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
There's an island "off Kintyre" (Satir) called Guðey at § 328, line 8 ( trans. "Then King Hakon sailed south long Kintyre and lay at the place that is called Gigha") and § 329, line 7 (trans "Then they went out under Gigha, to King Hakon"). That's clearly Gigha (supported by name and geography), and our Norse name is not in doubt, independent of the etymology or how it is spelled in modern Gaelic. This can be separated from the etymology now. :) So is there any objection to listing Guðey as the Old Norse name in the infobox with reference clearly indicating the source and modern interpretation? I don't think this is too much for a GA. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk) 12:12, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
I've put the collapsible infobox in there with the Etymology section that gives the pronunciation of all the Gaelic words that don't have their own pages. Putting the IPA into the text for each Gaelic name, phrase or place name would just look totally ugly. I'll try and make sound files too. They're currently in alphabetical order - anyone have any thoughts on that? Akerbeltz ( talk) 15:44, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: Moved. ( non-admin closure) Cwmhiraeth ( talk) 09:54, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
Gigha →
Isle of Gigha – Per
WP:WIAN this is the English name ("Giogha" is the Scottish Gaelic name) per the
Ordnance Survey. Thus being
consistent with the OS in other cases. As to other sources that use "Isle of Gigha" are
its website,
Google Maps,
Southern Hebrides and
Walkhighlands. Although the name is tautological there are many other places that are also tautological, see
List of tautological place names#Islands and per
WP:USENGLISH this is acceptable (note that neighboring
Cara Island is tautological). Since there don't appear to be other uses of "
Gigha", "Gigha" can continue to redirect to the island like
Skye does. This move was reverted in
2006 because "all the other Hebrides articles exclude the 'Isle of ' part. also this broke the box at the bottom." but that's not the case (for example
Isle of Skye) and like that it will be piped and defaultsorted. It was formerly "Gigha Island" as can be seen on
old OS maps but per
WP:MODERNPLACENAME and
WP:NAMECHANGES it is now "Isle of Gigha".
Crouch, Swale (
talk)
12:10, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
Hello,
I looked into the source saying that Gigha was a Seat of Power for Conall mac Comgall, and it doesn't seem to be saying that at all. It identifies the battlefield with Eilean da Ghallagan, which is a known island in West Tarbert Bay. Perhaps I have missed something, but I think this section should probably be removed or editted. If there is a case for believing Gigha was a Dal Riatan seat of power, it needs a better source.
(This is my first time editting on wikipedia, so apologies if I have not placed this in the right location). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pjhrandall16 ( talk • contribs) 22:27, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for this input - I will check it out in due course. Meantime I will have to recover from the dreadful page move which I missed above. Ben Mac Dui 15:33, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. —usernamekiran (talk) 23:16, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
Isle of Gigha →
Gigha – There are various main sources for articles about Scottish islands. The primary one is Haswell-Smith, Hamish (2004).
The Scottish Islands. Edinburgh: Canongate.
ISBN
978-1-84195-454-7. who has a chapter sub-section No 2.3 starting on page 37 called "Gigha".
Ben
Mac
Dui 15:10, 10 August 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. —
Amakuru (
talk)
12:20, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
The following books listed as regular sources at WP:GOODISLE refer to "Gigha":
This title from that page equivocates a little
There are no books that I have on that page that so refer to "Isle of Gigha". In addition, the following refer to "Gigha".
In other words, most of the sources listed as refs in the article use "Gigha". It is quite true that the Ordnance Survey have chosen to use "Isle of Gigha" I don't have any idea why they have done that (or for Skye). It is also true that the local development trust is called "Isle of Gigha Heritage Trust" but you will also notice that after introducing themselves the next section on their home page is "About Gigha" and that both "Gigha" and "Isle of Gigha" are liberaly sprinkled about.
The only reference on JSTOR I could find is "An Account of the Fungi of Arran, Gigha and Kintyre". P. M. Kirk, B. M. Spooner. Kew Bulletin, Vol. 38, No. 4 (1984), pp. 503-597
So if you do few web searches "Isle of Gigha" looks good. If you examine the literature in print about the topic this is at best an occassional use. Even web searches to more reliable sources that are less interested in marketing such as the Gazetteer have "Gigha". In other words "Isle of Gigha" is nowhere near being the WP:WIAN and (unlike e.g. Mull) there is no need to disambiguate. Respectfully, Ben Mac Dui 15:10, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
Should we include a reference to the island being the location for this TV series? AndyCPrivate ( talk) 21:30, 12 October 2021 (UTC)