This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | → | Archive 25 |
There are some very clear ownership issues on this article. Any attempt to improve the article, to expand coverage to deal with some obvious NPOV issues, or introduce relevant material is resisted by several editors. Arguments are inconsistently applied, material that is tangential on one subject must be included but other material that is relevant is reverted with the claim it is tangential. Talk page discussion is fruitless as there is no attempt to achieve a consensus, rather discussions on consensus are a stalling tactic to deter editors from attempting to improve the article. Outside opinion is discouraged by flooding the talk page with tendentious arguments and there is some serious misrepresentation of sources. Tag team edit warring has been used to impose content that clearly did not have consensus, there is also a very unhealthy attitude where consensus is decided by straw poll among a group of editors who always agree with one another. Justin talk 12:52, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
(His words were "fear of revenge following the murders") Richard Keatinge ( talk) 12:19, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
If we do this properly with diffs, I really hope that something useful will come out of it. I summarize by saying that Justin's main problem at present is not the incivility, which he has toned down to mildly irritating asides. It is incompetence; in the first place, dragging up old issues, but more importantly, failing to organize the discussion stage of WP:BRD.
1. He began by introducing the long-contested term " self-governing" in the lede. After a very long discussion (see above under POV tag, Self-governing in the lede) Justin complains: "ADDENDUM Again the proposed edit is self-governing with the qualifier except defence and foreign relations. I emphasise this as once again Imalbornoz has chosen to misrepresent the proposed edit as the basis to criticise it. I note my proposal earlier made this explicitly clear. Justin talk 21:20, 12 October 2010 (UTC") I cannot find - correct me if I'm wrong - any comment from Justin that made this new wording clear. As far as I can see, the discussion to that point had been specifically about the term "self-governing".
2. Next, he introduced a long section entitled "Parallels with Spanish territories": "The strategic position of the Strait of Gibraltar has left a legacy of a number of sovereignty disputes. Spain maintains sovereignty over Ceuta, Melilla, Penon de Velez de la Gomera, Alhucemas and the Chafarinas Islands (captured following the christian reconquest of Spain) based upon historical grounds, security reasons and on the basis of the UN principle of territorial integrity. Spain also maintains that the majority of residents are Spanish. Morocco claims these territories on the basis of the UN principles of decolonisation, territorial integrity and that Spanish arguments for the recovery of Gibraltar substantiate Morocco’s claim. [1]
Olivenza ( Spanish) or Olivença ( Portuguese) is a town and seat of a municipality, on a disputed section of the border between Portugal and Spain, which is claimed de jure by both countries and administered de facto as part of the Spanish autonomous community of Extremadura. The population is 80% ethnic portuguese and 30% of portuguese language. Olivenza had been under continuous Portuguese sovereignty since 1297 when it was occupied by the Spanish in 1801 and formally ceded by Portugal later that year by the Treaty of Badajoz. Spain claims the de jure sovereignty over Olivenza on the grounds that the Treaty of Badajoz still stands and has never been revoked. Thus, the border between the two countries in the region of Olivenza should be as demarcated by that treaty. Portugal claims the de jure sovereignty over Olivenza on the grounds that the Treaty of Badajoz was revoked by its own terms (the breach of any of its articles would lead to its cancellation) when Spain invaded Portugal in the Peninsular War of 1807.
Portugal further bases its case on Article 105 of the Treaty of Vienna of 1815, which Spain signed in 1817, that states that the winning countries are to "endeavour with the mightiest conciliatory effort to return Olivenza to Portuguese authority". Thus, the border between the two countries in the region of Olivenza should be as demarcated by the Treaty of Alcanizes of 1297. Spain interprets Article 105 as not being mandatory on demanding Spain to return Olivenza to Portugal, thus not revoking the Treaty of Badajoz. Portugal has never made a formal claim to the territory after the Treaty of Vienna, but has equally never directly acknowledged the Spanish sovereignty over Olivenza.
Spanish public opinion is not generally aware of the Portuguese claim on Olivenza (in contrast to the Spanish claim on Gibraltar or the Moroccan claims on Ceuta, Melilla and the Plazas de soberanía). On the other hand, awareness in Portugal has been increasing under the efforts of pressure groups to have the question raised and debated in public."
Red Hat reverted it, commenting (as others agreed) that it would be better under the dispute article or Foreign policy of Spain. After a significant discussion on this text in Parallels above, Justin then writes
"May I request that you strike through the text above, because that isn't actually what I propose. That is text I plan to put elsewhere, when I have the time. The proposal is actually a brief resume of the analogy of Ceuta/Melila and its relevance to the politics of Sovereignty and that is all. Thank you.
Justin
talk
14:36, 13 October 2010 (UTC)" It seems that he had changed his mind in accordance with Red Hat's comments, but hadn't bothered to tell anyone else, instead indulging in a long wrangle about whether his two casual quotations support notability in the Gibraltar context. My jaw dropped and I shook my head, but, for the sake of being obliging, I struck the text through as he requested. Above, at the end of the Parallels section, I asked:
"OK, could we have your revised proposal then?"
to which Justin replied:
"Indeed, patience grasshopper. I didn't see the point in writing anything if it was just going to be rejected."
As I mentioned above, not actual incivility, just a mildly irritating aside. The point is the incompetence in discussion and the waste of time.
3. Then Justin removed " San Roque" from the History section. As a one-off bold edit, this might be acceptable, though given the long previous arguments about it and the multiple references which firmly establish its notability, it would have been tactful to introduce the possibility on the talk page first. But I am left astonished that he should think that the comment "to be consistent with the argument in Parallels" is adequate. He may think that the multiply-referenced main destination of most of the previous population of Gibraltar is as trivial as a perceived inconsistency in Spanish policy, but other editors are unlikely to agree. His change was reverted.
4. Justin then removed San Roque again and also the sentence: "The terms of surrender provided certain assurances but commanders lost control, sailors and marines engaged in rape and pillage, desecrating most churches, and townspeople carried out reprisal killings." His edit summary was again entirely inadequate: "slimming down the text relevant to an overview, the detail can go in the history article, rm material that is peripheral as per current discussion". His repeated removal after a revert came with the summary "rv per discussion in talk, with a request that accusations of disruptive editing and other PA cease and a plea to focus on content". Again, nowhere near adequate, and an editor without longstanding involvement reverted to the last stable version.
5. Justin then inserted a considerable expansion of the account of the British takeover, referenced and well-written but probably far too long for an overview article: "After a heavy naval bombardment on 2 August, the marines launched a pincer attack on the town, advancing south from the isthmus and north from Europa Point. Gibraltar's defenders were well stocked with food and ammunition but were heavily outnumbered and outgunned. The Spanish position was clearly untenable and on the morning of 4 November, the governor, Diego de Salinas, agreed to surrender. Rooke remembered the looting at Cádiz but could not prevent a repetition at Gibraltar. Hesse's and Rooke's senior officers did their utmost to impose discipline but lost control in the days following the capture, sailors and marines engaged in rape and pillage, desecrating most churches, and townspeople carried out reprisal killings. The terms of surrender provided certain assurances (Article V promised freedom or religion and full civil rights to all Spaniards who wished to stay in Hapsburg Gibraltar), the perpetrators of crimes against the population were severely punished, order was restored but by 7 August the majority population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and opted to leave. They initially settled around the hermitage of San Roque later dispersing into nearby areas of Spain. The temporary resting place around the hermitage ultimately became the modern town of San Roque founded in 1706. The Allied conduct aroused anger in Spain against the 'heretics, and the chance of winning over Andalusians to the Imperial cause was lost. Several counter attacks by sea and land followed but all were repelled by the English and Dutch marines and Spaniards loyal to Charles."
6. Justin then returned to the Parallels to insert a brief (and possibly defensible) comment: "In turn, Spain's position is criticised as anomalous, whilst it maintain the enclaves of Ceuta and Melila in Moroccan territory." I reverted almost all of these edits anyway to await consensus. Discussion in the Overview section above was getting lost in Justin's complaints (as opposed to relevant comments) about how the present text was achieved: "In actual fact, there was no consensus for including this material - you and others chose to tag team edit war that material into the article. And again you drag up the past and use the threat of admin action to impose content rather than discussing. There is also a major inconsistency in your approach. Above you insist we shouldn't include material on the grounds you assert it is relevant to Spain but tangential to Gibraltar; an argument that isn't sustainable given the prominence in sources. Yet something that is tangential to Gibraltar but relevant to Spain you insist must be included and edit war to impose it. I am prepared to discuss it but if you insist on personaling this discussion as a dispute and make personal attacks and accusations as you've done at ANI I will be going to arbitration enforcement. I have given you plenty of warnings. Justin talk 00:55, 11 October 2010 (UTC)"
7. In the hope of getting discussion back on track I started the section above "Request for one-line comments on proposed changes". As will be clear from the diffs here, the proposals listed were direct quotations (some trivially amended) from Justin's edits. Justin then complained about ownership of the article, and wrote (above): "The comment above is not the proposal, reflecting a continued theme of anything I suggest being misrepresented. I have clearly made the contents of my proposal plain above. Please also note that sources support my suggestion and that the content of sources has been grossly misrepresented."
Even from Justin, this seemed remarkable. It appears impossible to engage Justin in a meaningful discussion at all. If he disclaims his own edits and refuses to write any other proposals, I really cannot understand how anybody is supposed to guess what his proposals actually are. At this point, and considering Justin's immense past history of argumentation, I came to the conclusion that as long as Justin continues to edit in this fashion, this article will remain bogged in futile wrangles. I should add that I do not merely assume good faith, I judge that he is editing in good faith, but without displaying sufficient competence to conduct a constructive discussion. I will remind him that the arbitration remedies included specifically "Editors wishing to edit in the area of dispute are advised to edit carefully, to adopt Wikipedia's communal approaches (including appropriate conduct, dispute resolution...", and that advice on dispute resolution includes "Resolve disputes calmly, through civil discussion and consensus-building on relevant discussion pages.". Making highly contentious edits and following them with semi-relevant wrangles, accusations, and disclaimers does not help us to build a better encyclopedia and it is a behaviour pattern which might reasonably attract enforcement action under the terms of the existing arbitration decision.
I do have a suggestion which I hope will allow Justin's knowledge and interest to be used constructively. If we all wish to put suggested edits on the talk page, with references, and then to engage in clear, relevant, and specific discussion in accordance with Wikipedia's principles, this would be welcome and useful. I really hope that he does so. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 12:19, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
UNINDENT
Richard alleges that it is impossible to have a meaningful discussion alleging I'm somehow unclear, that I cannot be understood.
“ | One, is the behaviour of the troops, two, is a fear of revenge following the murders of the British and Dutch troops followed by descration of their remains and, three, there was a natural expectation of a Spanish counter attack and a full blooded battle in the town. I personally feel that latter is the one that most stands up to logical examination as by the time of the exodus order had been restored. | ” |
I add the emphasis to make plain a personal opinion on one of the reasons for the exodus. Which you will note I amplified in the following sentence and that I acknowledge as a personal opinion, with the additional point that personal opion is not the basis. All have been previously advanced as reasons for the exodus. The argument I present is supported by the source: Jackson, William (1990). The Rock of the Gibraltarians. A History of Gibraltar (2nd ed.). Grendon, Northamptonshire, UK: Gibraltar Books. pp. 100-101. ISBN 0-948466-14-6. :
“ | Fortresses changed hands quite frequently in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. The English hold on Gibraltar might be only temporary. When the fortunes of war changed, the Spanish citizens would be able to re-occupy their property and rebuild their lives. | ” |
I would hope there would be agreement that the sources supports the expectation of a counter attack. So I do not understand why you are demanding I provide a sources for a comment that is not my principal argument. Perhaps you could elaborate for the reason for doing so. Equally perhaps you could explain why Pfainuk is attacked for suggesting that my comments have merit, alleging he is responsible for introducing this throw away line.
Opinions please
I'd like to ask for opinions on whether to remove the present sentence:
"The
terms of surrender provided certain assurances but commanders lost control, sailors and marines engaged in rape and
pillage, desecrating most churches, and townspeople carried out reprisal killings."
Richard Keatinge (
talk)
11:37, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
On 4 August 1704, during the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo-Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. The terms of surrender provided certain assurances but commanders lost control, sailors and marines engaged in rape and pillage, desecrating most churches, and townspeople carried out reprisal killings. By 7 August, after order was restored, almost all the population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and fled to San Roque and other nearby areas of Spain.
On 4 August 1704, during the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo-Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. By 7 August, after order was restored, almost all the population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and fled to San Roque and other nearby areas of Spain.
Or alternatively, per a recent bold edit, to expand the paragraph to: " After a heavy naval bombardment on 2 August, the marines launched a pincer attack on the town, advancing south from the isthmus and north from Europa Point. [2] Gibraltar's defenders were well stocked with food and ammunition but were heavily outnumbered and outgunned. The Spanish position was clearly untenable and on the morning of 4 November, the governor, Diego de Salinas, agreed to surrender. [3] Rooke remembered the looting at Cádiz but could not prevent a repetition at Gibraltar. Hesse's and Rooke's senior officers did their utmost to impose discipline but lost control in the days following the capture, sailors and marines engaged in rape and pillage, desecrating most churches, and townspeople carried out reprisal killings [4] [5] [6] [7]. The terms of surrender provided certain assurances (Article V promised freedom or religion and full civil rights to all Spaniards who wished to stay in Hapsburg Gibraltar), the perpetrators of crimes against the population were severely punished [8], order was restored but by 7 August the majority population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and opted to leave. [5] They initially settled around the hermitage of San Roque later dispersing into nearby areas of Spain. The temporary resting place around the hermitage ultimately became the modern town of San Roque founded in 1706. The Allied conduct aroused anger in Spain against the 'heretics, and the chance of winning over Andalusians to the Imperial cause was lost. Several counter attacks by sea and land followed but all were repelled by the English and Dutch marines and Spaniards loyal to Charles." Richard Keatinge ( talk) 11:37, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
And, on whether to remove the mention of San Roque as the main destination: Richard Keatinge ( talk) 11:37, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
And, whether to insert the sentence: "In turn, Spain's position is criticised as anomalous, whilst it maintain the enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla in Moroccan territory." Richard Keatinge ( talk) 11:37, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
And,whether to include in the lede the comment "self-governing"? At present this is omitted, leaving the issue for the main body of the article, which presently reads "Under its current Constitution, Gibraltar has almost complete internal democratic self-government through an elected parliament. The head of state is Queen Elizabeth II, who is represented by the Governor of Gibraltar. Defence, foreign policy and internal security are formally the responsibility of the Governor; judicial and other appointments are also made on behalf of the Queen in consultation with the head of the elected government.". Richard Keatinge ( talk) 14:11, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
OK, let's try a qualified mention of self-government. Should we include in the lede a comment of "largely self-governing", "mostly self-governing", "self-governing with some reserved powers", or some other closely similar formulation, the detail to be decided later?
In response to Pfainuk's call below for greater specificity, I ask: should we include in the lede the phrase "self-governing with some reserved powers". I would support this or any other accurate comment. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 07:09, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
“ | La reforma del decreto constitucional no modifica el estatus internacional de Gibraltar y, aunque desarrolla su autogobierno, no altera la soberanía británica sobre el Peñón, el cual sigue siendo un territorio dependiente del Reino Unido, de cuyas relaciones exteriores y defensa sigue siendo responsable. | ” |
“ | The reform of the constitutional decree does not change the international status of Gibraltar and, although self-government develops, does not alter British sovereignty over Gibraltar, which remains a dependent territory of the United Kingdom, for whose external relations and defense are still responsible. | ” |
“ | Gibraltar es un Territorio Británico de Ultramar, dotado de un estatus específico dentro de la Unión Europea (UE). Está excluido del Territorio Aduanero Común y de la Política Agrícola Común (PAC), de la Política Pesquera Común y del requisito de recaudar el Impuesto sobre el Valor Añadido (IVA). | ” |
“ | Gibraltar is a British Overseas Territory, which has a special status within the European Union (EU). It is excluded from the Customs Territory and Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) of the Common Fisheries Policy and the requirement to collect Value Added Tax (VAT). | ” |
“ | Gibraltar (English pronunciation: /dʒɪˈbrɔːltɚ/) is a self-governing British overseas territory with the UK retaining responsibility for foreign relations and defence. It is located on the southern end of the Iberian Peninsula at the entrance of the Mediterranean, overlooking the Strait of Gibraltar. | ” |
“ | The sovereignty of Gibraltar is a major point of contention in Anglo-Spanish relations as Spain asserts a claim to the territory and seeks its return.[4] Gibraltarians resoundingly rejected proposals for Spanish sovereignty in referendums held in 1967 and 2002. Under its new constitution, Gibraltar has almost complete internal self-government [17]. | ” |
unindent
I'm sorry but I cannot accept that as a proposal, since it does not reflect what the majority of sources say. Going forward I feel it is necessary to establish a few ground rules.
Establishing some ground rules would help frame the discussions and cease the endless arguments over points that have been explained more times than I care to count. Justin talk 13:16, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
I suggest that acceptable solutions would include:
Richard Keatinge ( talk) 14:08, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
UNINDENT
I have commented on Justin's proposal and made another proposal trying to find some common ground, in line with Justin's and Pfainuk's desire to make sure that the lede indicates that Gibraltar is part of the group of BOTs with a large degree of self-government. Richard has given his (positive) opinion about it. Please, Justin and Pfainuk, could you explain what's your view about it? Do you find it acceptable? Do you find anything wrong about it? My proposal was:
“ | The sovereignty of Gibraltar is a major point of contention in Anglo-Spanish relations as Spain asserts a claim to the territory and seeks its return.[4] Gibraltarians resoundingly rejected proposals for Spanish sovereignty in referendums held in 1967 and 2002. Under its new constitution, Gibraltar has almost complete internal self-government [20]. | ” |
Thank you very much for your time and interest! -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 20:59, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
We seem to be squeezing closer and closer to actual agreement. We now have: Under its new constitution, Gibraltar: either - has almost complete internal self-government or - is self-governing except for reserved powers including defence and foreign relations
Or possibly both, because I have just re-read the rest of this page and I really don't see any important difference, either semantic or relating to Wikipedia policies, between them. I have to say that if I was trying to emphasize the degree of self-government, I'd slightly prefer Imalbornoz's version, and it's also shorter. But both are correct, encyclopedic, acceptable. Who else is prepared to accept either? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 19:22, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
“ | Most Overseas Territories have elected governments. These have varying degrees of responsibility for domestic matters, ranging from Bermuda and Gibraltar which have almost complete internal self-government to Tristan da Cunha and the Pitcairn Islands, where the Governor is the law-making authority and there are only advisory councils. In the majority of Territories the Governor has special responsibility for defence, external affairs and internal security (including the police, the public service, and administration of the courts). In Anguilla, Montserrat and the Turks and Caicos Islands the Governor also has special responsibility for financial services. In St Helena the Governor is responsible for finance and shipping. | ” |
OK It boils down to this. Do we go with text that the majority of the sources reflect per WP:NPOV and WP:DUE, as per the text I suggest, fully in line with wikipedia's policy of WP:V. This is a proposal that all bar 1 editor finds acceptable. The alternative which was not supported by 3 editors relies on a single source. If there is not a substantive policy based objection to the proposal that has majority support then I propose we insert it within one week. I am disappointed that once again, as Pfainuk note, accusations of partisanship have crept in, equally disappointing is that positions are being repeatedly stated, counter arguments ignored and those accursed accusations substituted instead. Justin talk 10:19, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Coming back to the phrase "is self-governing except for reserved powers including defence and foreign relations". I'm quite happy with it, but Imalbornoz, whose English is excellent, says that he doesn't understand it too well. Perhaps it could be clearer while preserving the meaning? What about "is self-governing except for powers reserved to the UK Government, which include defence and foreign relations"? Does that make the comment clearer? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 17:15, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Gibraltar (English pronunciation: /dʒɪˈbrɔːltɚ/) is a British overseas territory located on the southern end of the Iberian Peninsula at the entrance of the Mediterranean, overlooking the Strait of Gibraltar. The territory itself is a peninsula of 6.843 square kilometres (2.642 sq mi) whose isthmus connects to the north with Spain. The Rock of Gibraltar is the major landmark of the region and gives its name to the densely populated area with city status, it is home to almost 30,000 Gibraltarians.
An Anglo-Dutch force captured Gibraltar in 1704 during the War of the Spanish Succession. The territory was subsequently ceded to Britain by Spain under the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713. It became an important base for the British Royal Navy, which drove the local economy and provided employment for a large portion of the local population. Today its economy is based largely on tourism, financial services and shipping. It is self-governing except for powers reserved to the UK Government, which include defence and foreign relations.
The sovereignty of Gibraltar is a major point of contention in Anglo-Spanish relations as Spain asserts a claim to the territory and seeks its return.[4] Gibraltarians resoundingly rejected proposals for Spanish sovereignty in referenda held in 1967 and 2002.
I'd be happy to put that in, or quite a few other variants. Indeed I propose to insert it within the next couple of days, unless anybody really objects. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 09:12, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
“ | Gibraltar (English pronunciation: /dʒɪˈbrɔːltɚ/) is a British overseas territory located on the southern end of the Iberian Peninsula. Gibraltar is self-governing except for powers reserved to the UK Government, which include defence and foreign relations. The territory itself is a peninsula of 6.843 square kilometres (2.642 sq mi) whose isthmus connects to the north with Spain. The Rock of Gibraltar is the major landmark of the region and gives its name to the densely populated area with city status, it is home to almost 30,000 Gibraltarians. | ” |
“ | Gibraltar (English pronunciation: /dʒɪˈbrɔːltɚ/) is a British overseas territory located on the southern end of the Iberian Peninsula. Gibraltar is self-governing except for powers reserved to the UK Government, which include defence and foreign relations. The territory itself is a peninsula of 6.843 square kilometres (2.642 sq mi) whose isthmus connects to the north with Spain. The Rock of Gibraltar is the major landmark of the region and gives its name to the densely populated area with city status, it is home to almost 30,000 Gibraltarians. | ” |
Alternatively we could have the shorter formulation: "Gibraltar is self-governing except for some powers reserved to the UK Government." Can we settle for one or the other? I'm happy with both. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 08:21, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
(unindent) Moving on, and taking Justin's point about other minor improvements to the lede, how about this one?
“ | Gibraltar (English pronunciation: /dʒɪˈbrɔːltɚ/) is a British overseas territory located on the southern end of the Iberian Peninsula. It is a peninsula of 6.843 square kilometres (2.642 sq mi) whose isthmus connects to the north with Spain. The Rock of Gibraltar is the major landmark of the region. At its foot is the densely populated area with city status, which is home to almost 30,000 Gibraltarians. Gibraltar is self-governing except for powers reserved to the UK Government, which include defence and foreign relations. | ” |
Richard Keatinge ( talk) 09:40, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
“ | Gibraltar (English pronunciation: /dʒɪˈbrɔːltɚ/) is a British overseas territory located on the southern end of the Iberian Peninsula. It is a peninsula of 6.843 square kilometres (2.642 sq mi) whose isthmus connects to the north with Spain. The Rock of Gibraltar is the major landmark of the region. At its foot is the densely populated city area, home to almost 30,000 Gibraltarians.
An Anglo-Dutch force captured Gibraltar in 1704 during the War of the Spanish Succession. The territory was subsequently ceded to Britain by Spain under the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713. It became an important base for the British Royal Navy, which drove the local economy and provided employment for a large portion of the local population. Today its economy is based largely on tourism, financial services and shipping.[3][4] The sovereignty of Gibraltar is a major point of contention in Anglo-Spanish relations as Spain asserts a claim to the territory and seeks its return.[4] Gibraltarians resoundingly rejected proposals for Spanish sovereignty in referenda held in 1967 and 2002. Under its current constitution Gibraltar is self-governing except for powers reserved to the UK Government, which include defence and foreign relations. |
” |
I do hope we don't need to argue about exactly where things go in the lede; I'd suggest that good organization takes precedence over any such issue. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 21:03, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
“ | Gibraltar (English pronunciation: /dʒɪˈbrɔːltɚ/) is a British overseas territory located on the southern end of the Iberian Peninsula. It is a peninsula of 6.843 square kilometres (2.642 sq mi) whose isthmus connects to the north with Spain. The Rock of Gibraltar is the major landmark of the region. At its foot is the densely populated city area, home to almost 30,000 Gibraltarians.
An Anglo-Dutch force captured Gibraltar in 1704 during the War of the Spanish Succession. The territory was subsequently ceded to Britain by Spain under the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713. It became an important base for the British Royal Navy, which drove the local economy and provided employment for a large portion of the local population. Today its economy is based largely on tourism, financial services and shipping.[3][4] The sovereignty of Gibraltar is a major point of contention in Anglo-Spanish relations as Spain asserts a claim to the territory and seeks its return.[4] Gibraltarians resoundingly rejected proposals for Spanish sovereignty in referenda held in 1967 and 2002. Under its current constitution Gibraltar has self-government except for powers reserved to the UK Government, which include defence and foreign relations. |
” |
UNINDENT
I've restored Richard's edit, supported by Pfainuk's amendment. There is clearly a consensus to add this. If Imalbornoz wishes to propose an improvement he can do so here. I hope we won't see edit warring to remove it.
Now moving on, this [21] and this [22] should have been an uncontroversial edit. Per WP:DUE and WP:NPOV they're clearly relevant and provide due coverage of the issue. Justin talk 13:48, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
I've never said or intended to imply that it was awkward because you are not a native speaker. I am an English native speaker and I certainly write awkward sentences sometimes, particularly when I try to change bits of already-written sentences. No, I rather figured you didn't get it because I hadn't explained it clearly enough.
Second, you claim to be trying to restore a stable consensus - but at the same time were reverting to a position that had never had and does not have consensus. If you're trying to return the text to the previous consensus position, why on earth are you edit warring to maintain a position that apparently does not have consensus and never has had consensus? While majorities do not define a consensus, let us note that Richard's text (of 21:03, 3 November) has the largest level of support that we've had since this whole thing started.
Third, I've just checked the Spanish government document. Sorry for the length, here are the sections I see that reference the word "autogobierno" ("self-governing"):
En el citado Comunicado Conjunto se añadía que el objetivo compartido de España y el Reino Unido era el de lograr un futuro en el que Gibraltar disfrutase de un mayor autogobierno y de la oportunidad de aprovechar plenamente los beneficios derivados de una convivencia normal con la región circunvecina.
In the cited joint communiqué [the British and Spanish governments] added that the shared objective of Spain and the United Kingdom was to achieve a future in which Gibraltar enjoys greater self-government and opportunity to fully exploit the benefits of normal coexistence with the surrounding region.
Su objetivo común era superar todas sus diferencias sobre Gibraltar y garantizar un futuro seguro para ese territorio, en el que Gibraltar conservase su modo de vida y sus tradiciones, gozase de un mayor autogobierno interno, aumentase su prosperidad de forma sostenible y recibiese todos los beneficios correspondientes a una cooperación armoniosa y mutuamente beneficiosa, en todos los terrenos, entre Gibraltar y el Campo de Gibraltar.
[The British and Spanish foreign ministers'] joint goal was to overcome all of their differences over Gibraltar and to guarantee a secure future for this territory, in which Gibraltar conserves her way of life and her traditions, enjoys greater internal self-government, increases her prosperity in a sustainable manner and receives all the benefits corresponding to a harmonious and mutually beneficial cooporation between Gibraltar and the Campo de Gibraltar in all fields.
Los gibraltareños serían consultados, en un referéndum, sobre el acuerdo una vez ultimado. Los gibraltareños tendrían más autogobierno, de acuerdo con el texto del acuerdo, y podrían preservar sus costumbres y cultura. La idea de que la soberanía compartida fuese una fórmula transitoria no era, según Peter Hain, aceptable para el Gobierno británico.
The Gibraltarians would be consulted, in a referendum, on [the joint sovereignty proposals of 2002] once they had been finalised. The Gibraltarians would have more self-government, in accordance with the text of the agreement, and would preserve their customs and culture. The idea that joint sovereignty would be a transitory formula was not, according to Peter Hain, acceptable to the British government.
Los gibraltareños debían entender que el acuerdo era en su mejor interés ya que tendrían un amplio autogobierno y mejores relaciones económicas con España. Si no aprovechaban esta oportunidad, España seguiría insistiendo para que Gibraltar siguiera estando excluido de los acuerdos de la UE.
[According to José María Aznar in an interview with the Guardian,] [t]he Gibraltarians should understand that [the joint sovereignty proposals of 2002] was in their best interests as they would get broad self-government and improve economic relations with Spain. If they didn't take this opportunity, Spain would continue to insist that Gibraltar be excluded from EU agreements.
La reforma del decreto constitucional no modifica el estatus internacional de Gibraltar y, aunque desarrolla su autogobierno, no altera la soberanía británica sobre el Peñón, el cual sigue siendo un territorio dependiente del Reino Unido, de cuyas relaciones exteriores y defensa sigue siendo responsable.
The reform of the constitutional decree does not modify the international status of Gibraltar and, though self-government develops, does not alter British sovereignty over the peninsula, which remains a dependent territory of the United Kingdom, which is still responsible for external relations and defence.
Thus I can find no evidence whatsoever to back up your claim that Spain says that Gibraltar is not self-governing. I note in passing that they do use the Spanish equivalent of the UN term, "territorio no autónomo" (non-autonomous territory), several times - and primarily in two contexts. It's used when describing Gibraltar's status in international law, and when describing Gibraltar's relationship with the UN. It does not use it to make any judgement as to Gibraltar's level of self-government.
We can move on to the UN. Resolution 1541 uses both the terms "self-governing" and "self-government" to refer to status. Not level of self-government, but political status. As such I see no reason to assume that one form of the word is any more controversial than the other, and thus no reason not to go for better English. Pfainuk talk 11:13, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
unindent ...Returning to constructive discourse, we have come very close to a consensus. What about the phrase "Gibraltar governs itself except..."? Alternatively "Under its 2006 constitution Gibraltar elects its own government; some powers including defence and foreign relations are reserved to the UK."? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 13:24, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
Also, I have copied the seedling discussion of Ceuta and Melilla to a new section below. Until we have consensus to insert it here, rather than under Foreign relations of Spain, this comment needs to be removed. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 13:24, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
A few comments on the above.
Ecemaml, there are few things more likely to be disruptive to progress on this page than editors dragging up the past. The four of us who have been in this discussion have avoided it for the last few days and we've managed to make some good headway on the matters in hand - progress that could not have been made had editors been focussed on the past rather than the future. I would strongly suggest that you do not jeopardise this progress by making any more such unhelpful comments.
Imalbornoz, consensus is not, and never has been, a matter of voting. The substance of the arguments made do matter as well. Just like here, we need to come to a position that all can accept. I will put my position in detail below, but we're going to need compromise there as well as here.
Richard, it still sounds a touch awkward to my ear, but am willing to accept something on the lines you propose. It may be a case of varying mileage, but I will make an edit to try and get something that sounds better to me. Pfainuk talk 18:57, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
there is no contradiction with the UN position but we don't explain the UN position so you can expect some POV troll to drop by in future and further disrupt the article.
As long as the UN allow the state of Israel to exist, I think there is no point in discussing other areas. Should there be a time limit (year), how the area was gained, what the inhabitants want, or what should decide who owns what? Why haven't the UN thrown Turkey out of Cyprus? This is a much more resent and devastating dispute than Gibraltar. An why do the Spaniards still occupy Moroccos cities? And what about the west Indies? When I see a Jamaican, Holland is of course the first thing on my mind. So please shut up! If it hadn't been for piracy and warfare, there would not have been any Britain nor Spain. Why shouldn't Denmark-Norway be given back southern Sweden? It belonged to them for centuries longer than it has been under Swedish reign. Why don't we start a new war right now? The winner takes it all! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.108.99.225 ( talk) 03:21, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
The proposal was to insert: "In turn, Spain's position is criticised as anomalous, whilst it maintain the enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla in Moroccan territory." Richard Keatinge ( talk) 11:37, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
And once again, this isn't the edit, I corrected a POV error in my proposal already. Since when did we have scrutiny of well-written sourced and relevant material? Which policy change did I miss? Justin talk 13:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
WP:NPOVN#Ceuta, Melilla and Gibraltar Please allow outside comment without flooding the page with walls of text. Justin talk 20:02, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
So just to check, your proposal is:
“ | In turn, Spain's position is criticised as anomalous, whilst it maintains the enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla (claimed by Morocco) on the North African coast. [9] [10] | ” |
Is that right? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 22:56, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
I note that I now have a "cabal". So far I have generally been ignoring any comments that don't seem offer any contribution to improving the article. But if you want to discuss matters of this sort, perhaps your talk page or mine would be the best place? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 12:29, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Having looked through the article while reviewing the previous point, I noticed with surprise that no significant discussion of the dispute is included in the Politics section of this article. Whereas detailed discussion of the dispute properly belongs on the (sadly dreadful) dispute article, and there is clearly more to Gibraltar politics than the relationship with Spain, this is nonetheless an important part of Gibraltar politics and should properly be discussed.
I thus suggest that the following, or something like it, be included underneath that section, and that the third paragraph (on the UN) be removed as redundant.
--
Relations with Spain
Spain, while recognising British sovereignty over the town of Gibraltar, requests that the territory be handed over to Spanish control, arguing that Gibraltar's status undermines Spain's territorial integrity.<Spanish government document discussed above> In response, the British government argues that the Gibraltarian people have the right to self-determination, limited only by the Treaty of Utrecht, which gives Spain "first refusal" if the British decide to leave.< this FCO doc, page 5, marked as page 58> The Gibraltar government, for its part, argues that Gibraltarians have an unlimited right to self-determination.< this Times article>
Two referendums on the subject have been held, in 1967 (on a handover to Spain) and 2002 (on the principle of joint sovereignty). In each case, more than 98% of voters rejected the outlined change. Both referenda were opposed by the Spanish government.<Sources from the articles on the referendums>
Spain further asserts that British sovereignty only extends to those areas explicitly mentioned by the Treaty of Utrecht. On this basis, Spain disputes Britain's claim to sovereignty over the isthmus connecting Gibraltar with Spain and does not recognise any right of Gibraltar to territorial waters, for example.<the same Spanish gov't document> The UK and Gibraltar governments do not accept any such limitations on British sovereignty,< this Gibraltar Chronicle article> and claim the isthmus based on longstanding occupation.< same FCO doc>
Gibraltar is included on the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories. While the British and Gibraltar governments argue for removal, stating that Gibraltar has effectively been decolonised, Spain opposes such attempts, and Spanish commentators still commonly describe Gibraltar as a colony.<Same references as now>
--
References are provided in <angle brackets>. Thoughts? Pfainuk talk 21:28, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
(ec with Imalbornoz, 18:47 11 Nov. 2010) Ecemaml, while your quote is accurate, your statement that my phrase is not fully supported by the source is not. If you check the first line under "Sovereignty", you will see the words: Under the Treaty of Utrecht, Spain has right of ‘first refusal’ should Britain decide to relinquish sovereignty over Gibraltar. This is a British government POV, so is couched in those terms in my proposal.
The other points you list would appear to me to be so far beyond the point of reasonable summary that it would be unacceptable to me. Better to have no change than to create a WP:COATRACK on the detail of the referenda, which would be the effect of your proposal.
The only reason the text mentions the referenda is to point out implications of the British and Gibraltar POV: that self-determination effectively means the status quo. If we're mentioning the referenda to make a point about current politics (as I propose), it seems fair to point out that these were not conducted with Spanish consent as might otherwise be inferred - that Spain did not implicitly accept self-determination through the referenda. What the UN had to say on a referendum in 1967 in its non-binding opinion is pretty irrelevant to the political situation as of 2010.
The point made about the UN is independently relevant - it would be relevant even if there were no dispute. I propose it go in this section only because it would be illogical to go into the British and Spanish positions on the C24 listing before mentioning why they might care. And I agree with Justin that a reference to GA resolution 1541 would not be inappropriate to give context to the C24 list - again, it would be relevant as of 2010 regardless of the dispute, unlike the UN resolutions noted.
As to Richard's point regarding referencing - the article on the 1967 referendum is surprisingly bare of references, so I've had a look online. This book (p33) was the first I found, and it makes the point well enough. Pfainuk talk 18:50, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
I have moved the detail about the number of inhabitants who are local citizens from the lede to the Demography section, with its reference. I hope this is helpful. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 13:33, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
I am restoring the previous text, which is the established consensus, and restoring the wikilink associated with it. Gibraltarian applies to both native born and residents. So the edit and lede fixation was unnecessary. The removal of the wikilink to an article that explains the demographics has left the article poorer. I trust we can have a mature level headed discussion about changing the consensus rather than further incivility. Justin talk 12:26, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
UNINDENT
I think that the reason why the current version does not sound fine in my ear is because it's like adding apples to pears:
Or maybe I am missing some subtlety of the English language? (e.g. that nationalities can also be colloquially used to mean individuals?)
If Justin wants to keep the link to Gibraltarian people (which is fine with me), what about:
Does it sound any better, or does anybody have a better alternative? -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 10:09, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
All users are reminded that this article is subject to sanctions under the ARBCOM rulings on Gibraltar. Please remember that we have specific policies for multiple reverts and for edit waring. Since there are no significant edits in the past day or so I have not issued blocks. I hope we do not come to that. All an encouraged to continue discussions on the talk page, respect all editors and avoid edit summaries and comments that may be deemed uncivil. Thanks JodyB talk 19:49, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
I am expanding the warning to include incivility on the part of all. Vigorous debate is encouraged but focus on the content and not the editors. Badgering, name calling and other forms of dispute are blockable offenses as under the ARBCOM ruling. JodyB talk 14:27, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
On 4 August 1704, during the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo-Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. The terms of surrender provided certain assurances but commanders lost control, sailors and marines engaged in rape and pillage, desecrating most churches, and townspeople carried out reprisal killings. By 7 August, after order was restored, almost all the population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and fled to San Roque and other nearby areas of Spain.
be changed to:
On 4 August 1704, during the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo-Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. By 7 August, after order was restored, almost all the population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and left for nearby areas of Spain.
I have a number of problems with the sentence "The terms of surrender provided certain assurances but commanders lost control, sailors and marines engaged in rape and pillage, desecrating most churches, and townspeople carried out reprisal killings." In the first instance, it is a classic example of WP:CHERRY, picking out facts to make a point not supported by the original texts. As written it implies the evil Anglo-Dutch forces were deliberately beastly to the population to force them to leave. There are number of key factors that are not included here that would be relevant if this text is to persist. First of all the Anglo-Dutch forces and their Spanish allies had the objective of seeking support for their cause from the people, so the activities of some of their forces was disastrous as it alienated the population. Secondly, the forces tried desperately to control their troops and severely punished the offenders; the rapists were hanged for example. Thirdly, another factor in the exodus was an expected Spanish counter attack in the near future. The population believed they would return shortly. Fourthly, to say they fled to San Roque is emotive language, they did not flee, they chose to leave and they left unmolested. If anything in the article is WP:SYN this phrasing is it. Finally, the use of English language is poor the sentence structure is appalling and it reads badly. Not the product of quality writing for a quality encyclopedia.
Secondly, mention of San Roque. I am aware that this is mentioned in historical texts as a destination. The point that it is sourced is not the issue here. There are many other destinations such as Algeciras and other towns founded nearby, which we do not think to mention. I believe this is another example of WP:CHERRY picking out a fact for inclusion, which is only tangentially related to Gibraltar. In addition, we risk WP:COATRACK due to the importance attached to San Roque by certain ardent nationalists, whereby the people of San Roque are claimed to be the "real Gibraltarians" and the only ones who can determine the future of Gibraltar. Now I do not claim that consideration of offending or otherwise a particular nationalist group should ever be a reason for suppressing content but we should not shirk from considering whether mention improves the article or merely sates a nationalist aspiration to provide a WP:COATRACK for expressing nationalist sentiment. How long before someone decides to put in the fact that the Spanish consider San Roque to be the "real Gibraltar". Finally, San Roque was in fact founded in 1706, some 2 years later. Yes, it was founded by the people who left Gibraltar but it didn't exist as a town in 1704. So basically the article says they went to a town that didn't exist at the time and I'm sorry but I really don't see that as an example of quality writing for a quality encyclopedia.
This is a overview article, rather than a full account of historical events, and it now seems to me that we would need to put in an excessive number of details to achieve consensus text that treats these events in a neutral manner. A NPOV blow-by-blow account of the whole thing, including the who did what to whom, who went where, towns that were founded in SPAIN not GIBRALTAR, and so on, just seems too much for an incident in a overview. Personally I'd go for slimming down the text as above, which no doubt will satisfy no one but treat the incident in a neutral manner. As I have pointed out many times, I do not feel the article benefits from a pre-occupation with what I refer to as "atrocity tennis". Justin talk 12:48, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
On 4 August 1704, during the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo-Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. Following three days of disorder, almost all of the townspeople (had?) left for nearby areas of Spain (including the hermitage of San Roque).
“ | On 4 August 1704, during the
War of the Spanish Succession, a combined
Anglo-
Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. After a heavy naval bombardment on 2 August, the marines launched a pincer attack on the town, advancing south from the isthmus and north from Europa Point.
[11] Gibraltar's defenders were well stocked with food and ammunition but were heavily outnumbered and outgunned. The Spanish position was clearly untenable and on the morning of 4 November, the governor, Diego de Salinas, agreed to surrender.
[12] Rooke remembered the looting at Cádiz but could not prevent a repetition at Gibraltar. Hesse's and Rooke's senior officers did their utmost to impose discipline but lost control in the days following the capture, sailors and marines engaged in rape and
pillage, desecrating most churches, and townspeople carried out reprisal killings
[13]
[5]
[14]
[15]. The
terms of surrender provided certain assurances (Article V promised freedom or religion and full civil rights to all Spaniards who wished to stay in Hapsburg Gibraltar), the perpetrators of crimes against the population were severely punished
[16], order was restored but by 7 August the majority population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and opted to leave.
[5] They initially settled around the hermitage of San Roque later dispersing into
nearby areas of Spain. The temporary resting place around the hermitage ultimately became the modern town of
San Roque founded in 1706. The Allied conduct aroused anger in Spain against the 'heretics, and the chance of winning over Andalusians to the Imperial cause was lost.
Several counter attacks by sea and land followed but all were repelled by the English and Dutch marines and Spaniards loyal to Charles. |
” |
May I just point out something from my earlier comment Please note that I'm not suggesting we don't need to mention the violence that occurred. I couldn't make this any plainer. Imalbornoz responds I honestly believe that the violence during the capture and the exile to San Roque is noteworthy enough to be mentioned in the article. I make the point that starting a premise like this in response to my comments can all too easily be interpreted as not listening. Justin talk 13:40, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
If you have come here to assist in the RFC we all thank you. There is considerable discussion about the nature of the lead. Please discuss this with us and offer your ideas and comments about the various points you will find below. Thank you so much! JodyB talk 11:18, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Would you think it helpful to retry an RFC on this point only? I know that a previous attempt did not really produce any outsiders. However we could go to some of the involved projects and ask for input. I'll be glad to arrange it and canvass for outside opinions. You have all done good work here and I sense you are trying to reach consensus but have reached a good faith stalemate. If you are interested let me know. Each should prepare the paragraph/sentence of his choosing. We will create the section, start the RFC and ask for help. JodyB talk 11:28, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
I think the consensus is to move toward and RFC. Notifying others may or may not be inappropropriate. That is why I offered do it. Since I am not involved in the editing of the page except in an administrative manner, it would be less likely I would be accused of canvassing inappropriately. Please reconsider and continue to work with us. JodyB talk 02:41, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Only minimally changed from the current version:
“ | On 4 August 1704, during the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo- Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. The terms of surrender provided assurances of security but commanders lost control, sailors and marines engaged in rape and pillage, desecrating most churches, and townspeople carried out reprisal killings. [17] [5] [18] [19] On 7 August, after order was restored, almost all the population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and left for San Roque and other nearby areas of Spain. [5] | ” |
Ecemaml has usefully supplied two pages with relevant references: User:Ecemaml/Nursery/Exodus of the Spanish population of Gibraltar in 1704 and User:Ecemaml/Selected quotations about Gibraltar
We have three sentences. The first is uncontroversial, though I suppose we could add something to indicate that the date given is New Style. The second mentions the terms of surrender, the serious violence of the attacking force despite those terms, and the violence with which some of the townspeople responded. These are well-referenced; they are also an ongoing part of the Spanish discourse on the question of Gibraltar. I won't quote from certain offensive remarks made by a now-absent editor, but it seems that there is also a nationalist British discourse that prefers to see the previous inhabitants as morally inferior beings who committed crimes after surrender; the fact of illegitimate expulsion is seen as relevant to modern issues of legitimacy.
The third sentence mentions the main reason for the final exodus, namely fear, and specifies the main initial destination, San Roque. San Roque was a hamlet with a shrine, a few kilometres north of the Rock of Gibraltar, within the Campo, the townlands, of Gibraltar. It became a refugee camp and in due course a town, which remains proud of its continuity with Spanish Gibraltar. I copy from its English Wikipedia article: " San Roque's official motto is "Very Noble and Very Loyal city of San Roque, where Gibraltar lives on" (Spanish: Muy Noble y Muy Leal ciudad de San Roque, donde reside la de Gibraltar)." The fact of San Roque as a destination is also well-referenced - see Ecemaml's pages - and its ongoing self-image is again a major part of one modern nationalist discourse and very upsetting to the other. If necessary I could reference the archives to make this point.
Both the importance of certain facts to one discourse, and their heartfelt rejection by another, contribute to the importance of the facts in these two sentences. It is not possible to reduce them significantly without omitting points that were significant at the time and are still fundamental to the modern political discussion. It would be possible to argue for slight expansion, and no doubt the points could also be phrased better, but I feel that the version above is one of the best available and as good as anything I can think of.
I'm off to be educated in cardiology and will check this page again tomorrow. Thank you for reading this. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 18:56, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
“ | Fortresses changed hands quite frequently in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. The English hold on Gibraltar might be only temporary. When the fortunes of war changed, the Spanish citizens would be able to re-occupy their property and rebuild their lives. | ” |
UNINDENT
What? Where do you see in that text that it says that the population were afraid of a Spanish counter attack? Or is it a conclusion that you reach by yourself? On the other hand, the source clearly says that "English atrocities at Cádiz and elsewhere and the behaviour of the English sailors in the first days after the surrender suggested that if they stayed they might not live to see that day." and "By the time discipline was fully restored, few of the inhabitants wished or dared to remain."
BTW, I am sure that Bosnia was a terrible experience, but you should know that "I've seen it time and time again in Bosnia, I know how it works, I've seen the way refugees act." is exactly what WP:OR is about... -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 10:31, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
As an aside Richard, you have raised the spectre of nationalism again, which of course has led to comments about various nationalist groups' tendency to rewrite history to support modern claims. May I suggest you rewrite your justification to avoid mention of various nationalist apiration as they have no relevance to writing an encyclopedia. We should be writing for our readers based on a NPOV of the history and the only notice we should take of such sentiments is to be careful to avoid favouring one or the other. Justin talk 15:22, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
I agree to the above, and feel it useful to divide proposals with headings. My proposal would be:
On 4 August 1704, during the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo-Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. Following three days of violence, almost all of the townspeople left for nearby areas of Spain (including the hermitage of San Roque).
I would argue that:
Note that I will be away for a few days as noted above, and may not respond in a very timely manner.
Pfainuk talk 09:09, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Would someone please remind Imalbornoz of talk page etiquette as I have done, time and time again, that edits such as this [50] are unacceptable as they change the narrative of the discussion. He has been warned time and time again about this - please ask the admin user:Atama.
Aside from anything, this is the opinion of one author and opinions are not facts. As I anticipated, I doubt any RFC has a chance as he can't resist interfering and he has an utter inability to separate opinion from fact. Justin talk 23:45, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
I just wanted to comment on a throw away line. "Officers seldom hang their own men for no reason, to say no more." Dans ce pays-ci, il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres. Sadly yes they do [52], especially if there is a politic imperative. Justin talk 00:04, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
I have two suggestions:
“ | On 4 August 1704, during the
War of the Spanish Succession, a combined
Anglo-
Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. Following a heavy naval bombardment on 2 August, marines launched a pincer attack on the town.
[20] Gibraltar's defenders although well stocked with food and ammunition were heavily outnumbered and outgunned. The position was clearly untenable and in the morning the Spanish governor surrendered.
[21] Rooke remembered the looting at Cádiz but could not prevent a repetition at Gibraltar. Senior officers did their utmost to impose discipline but lost control in the days following the capture, sailors and marines ran amok
[22]
[5]
[23]
[24]. This aroused anger in Spain against the 'heretics, and the chance of winning over Andalusians to the Imperial cause was lost. The
terms of surrender provided certain assurances (Article V promised freedom of religion and full civil rights to all Spaniards who wished to stay in Hapsburg Gibraltar), the perpetrators of crimes against the population were severely punished
[25] and order restored but by 7 August the majority of the population felt staying was too dangerous and opted to leave.
[5] Anticipating a Spanish counter attack and that they would shortly return
[26], they initially settled around the hermitage of San Roque later dispersing into
nearby areas of Spain. The temporary resting place around the hermitage ultimately became the modern town of
San Roque founded in 1706.
Several counter attacks by sea and land followed but all were repelled by the English and Dutch marines and Spaniards loyal to Charles. |
” |
My second, more compact suggestion:
“ | During the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo-Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar on 4 August 1704 [27]. Attempts to win over the population to the Imperial cause were frustrated by the disorder [28] that followed. The effects of this, combined with the expectation of a Spanish counter attack [29] led most of the townspeople to leave, settling initially around the nearby hermitage of San Roque. | ” |
I don't propose to justify this, I have confidence in the community to select the best text that represents a neutral point of view, giving due coverage of key issues and avoiding words that label or cherry picking from sources or creating a coat rack for modern irredentist claims. Thank you. Justin talk 23:36, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
And a third even more compact version without tangential information:
“ | During the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo-Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar on 4 August 1704 [30]. Attempts to win over the population to the Imperial cause were frustrated by the disorder [31] that followed. The effects of this, combined with the expectation of a Spanish counter attack [32] led most of the townspeople to leave. | ” |
Thank you and goodnight. Justin talk 18:54, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
{{
cite web}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
(
help) Of course, Spain argues this while happily sitting on a dozen separate enclaves on another continent, Africa, including two cities, in the territory of what would otherwise naturally be the territory of the Kingdom of Morocco.
Spain passionately believes these to be Spanish by virtue of history, the passage of time (around 500 years) and the fact that the Kingdom of Morocco did not exist at that time in the same legal form as it exists now. With respect, those distinctions seem wholly insufficient to justify Spain holding and advocating diametrically opposed positions in the cases of Gibraltar and her own enclaves in North Africa just 15 kilometres away from Gibraltar across the Strait of Gibraltar.
{{
cite web}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
(
help) In this respect, the Spanish have a convincing argument that the British occupation of Gibraltar is anomalous given its location compared to Britain. However, such an argument is undermined by Spain’s similar occupation of Ceuta and Melilla in Northern Africa.
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | → | Archive 25 |
There are some very clear ownership issues on this article. Any attempt to improve the article, to expand coverage to deal with some obvious NPOV issues, or introduce relevant material is resisted by several editors. Arguments are inconsistently applied, material that is tangential on one subject must be included but other material that is relevant is reverted with the claim it is tangential. Talk page discussion is fruitless as there is no attempt to achieve a consensus, rather discussions on consensus are a stalling tactic to deter editors from attempting to improve the article. Outside opinion is discouraged by flooding the talk page with tendentious arguments and there is some serious misrepresentation of sources. Tag team edit warring has been used to impose content that clearly did not have consensus, there is also a very unhealthy attitude where consensus is decided by straw poll among a group of editors who always agree with one another. Justin talk 12:52, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
(His words were "fear of revenge following the murders") Richard Keatinge ( talk) 12:19, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
If we do this properly with diffs, I really hope that something useful will come out of it. I summarize by saying that Justin's main problem at present is not the incivility, which he has toned down to mildly irritating asides. It is incompetence; in the first place, dragging up old issues, but more importantly, failing to organize the discussion stage of WP:BRD.
1. He began by introducing the long-contested term " self-governing" in the lede. After a very long discussion (see above under POV tag, Self-governing in the lede) Justin complains: "ADDENDUM Again the proposed edit is self-governing with the qualifier except defence and foreign relations. I emphasise this as once again Imalbornoz has chosen to misrepresent the proposed edit as the basis to criticise it. I note my proposal earlier made this explicitly clear. Justin talk 21:20, 12 October 2010 (UTC") I cannot find - correct me if I'm wrong - any comment from Justin that made this new wording clear. As far as I can see, the discussion to that point had been specifically about the term "self-governing".
2. Next, he introduced a long section entitled "Parallels with Spanish territories": "The strategic position of the Strait of Gibraltar has left a legacy of a number of sovereignty disputes. Spain maintains sovereignty over Ceuta, Melilla, Penon de Velez de la Gomera, Alhucemas and the Chafarinas Islands (captured following the christian reconquest of Spain) based upon historical grounds, security reasons and on the basis of the UN principle of territorial integrity. Spain also maintains that the majority of residents are Spanish. Morocco claims these territories on the basis of the UN principles of decolonisation, territorial integrity and that Spanish arguments for the recovery of Gibraltar substantiate Morocco’s claim. [1]
Olivenza ( Spanish) or Olivença ( Portuguese) is a town and seat of a municipality, on a disputed section of the border between Portugal and Spain, which is claimed de jure by both countries and administered de facto as part of the Spanish autonomous community of Extremadura. The population is 80% ethnic portuguese and 30% of portuguese language. Olivenza had been under continuous Portuguese sovereignty since 1297 when it was occupied by the Spanish in 1801 and formally ceded by Portugal later that year by the Treaty of Badajoz. Spain claims the de jure sovereignty over Olivenza on the grounds that the Treaty of Badajoz still stands and has never been revoked. Thus, the border between the two countries in the region of Olivenza should be as demarcated by that treaty. Portugal claims the de jure sovereignty over Olivenza on the grounds that the Treaty of Badajoz was revoked by its own terms (the breach of any of its articles would lead to its cancellation) when Spain invaded Portugal in the Peninsular War of 1807.
Portugal further bases its case on Article 105 of the Treaty of Vienna of 1815, which Spain signed in 1817, that states that the winning countries are to "endeavour with the mightiest conciliatory effort to return Olivenza to Portuguese authority". Thus, the border between the two countries in the region of Olivenza should be as demarcated by the Treaty of Alcanizes of 1297. Spain interprets Article 105 as not being mandatory on demanding Spain to return Olivenza to Portugal, thus not revoking the Treaty of Badajoz. Portugal has never made a formal claim to the territory after the Treaty of Vienna, but has equally never directly acknowledged the Spanish sovereignty over Olivenza.
Spanish public opinion is not generally aware of the Portuguese claim on Olivenza (in contrast to the Spanish claim on Gibraltar or the Moroccan claims on Ceuta, Melilla and the Plazas de soberanía). On the other hand, awareness in Portugal has been increasing under the efforts of pressure groups to have the question raised and debated in public."
Red Hat reverted it, commenting (as others agreed) that it would be better under the dispute article or Foreign policy of Spain. After a significant discussion on this text in Parallels above, Justin then writes
"May I request that you strike through the text above, because that isn't actually what I propose. That is text I plan to put elsewhere, when I have the time. The proposal is actually a brief resume of the analogy of Ceuta/Melila and its relevance to the politics of Sovereignty and that is all. Thank you.
Justin
talk
14:36, 13 October 2010 (UTC)" It seems that he had changed his mind in accordance with Red Hat's comments, but hadn't bothered to tell anyone else, instead indulging in a long wrangle about whether his two casual quotations support notability in the Gibraltar context. My jaw dropped and I shook my head, but, for the sake of being obliging, I struck the text through as he requested. Above, at the end of the Parallels section, I asked:
"OK, could we have your revised proposal then?"
to which Justin replied:
"Indeed, patience grasshopper. I didn't see the point in writing anything if it was just going to be rejected."
As I mentioned above, not actual incivility, just a mildly irritating aside. The point is the incompetence in discussion and the waste of time.
3. Then Justin removed " San Roque" from the History section. As a one-off bold edit, this might be acceptable, though given the long previous arguments about it and the multiple references which firmly establish its notability, it would have been tactful to introduce the possibility on the talk page first. But I am left astonished that he should think that the comment "to be consistent with the argument in Parallels" is adequate. He may think that the multiply-referenced main destination of most of the previous population of Gibraltar is as trivial as a perceived inconsistency in Spanish policy, but other editors are unlikely to agree. His change was reverted.
4. Justin then removed San Roque again and also the sentence: "The terms of surrender provided certain assurances but commanders lost control, sailors and marines engaged in rape and pillage, desecrating most churches, and townspeople carried out reprisal killings." His edit summary was again entirely inadequate: "slimming down the text relevant to an overview, the detail can go in the history article, rm material that is peripheral as per current discussion". His repeated removal after a revert came with the summary "rv per discussion in talk, with a request that accusations of disruptive editing and other PA cease and a plea to focus on content". Again, nowhere near adequate, and an editor without longstanding involvement reverted to the last stable version.
5. Justin then inserted a considerable expansion of the account of the British takeover, referenced and well-written but probably far too long for an overview article: "After a heavy naval bombardment on 2 August, the marines launched a pincer attack on the town, advancing south from the isthmus and north from Europa Point. Gibraltar's defenders were well stocked with food and ammunition but were heavily outnumbered and outgunned. The Spanish position was clearly untenable and on the morning of 4 November, the governor, Diego de Salinas, agreed to surrender. Rooke remembered the looting at Cádiz but could not prevent a repetition at Gibraltar. Hesse's and Rooke's senior officers did their utmost to impose discipline but lost control in the days following the capture, sailors and marines engaged in rape and pillage, desecrating most churches, and townspeople carried out reprisal killings. The terms of surrender provided certain assurances (Article V promised freedom or religion and full civil rights to all Spaniards who wished to stay in Hapsburg Gibraltar), the perpetrators of crimes against the population were severely punished, order was restored but by 7 August the majority population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and opted to leave. They initially settled around the hermitage of San Roque later dispersing into nearby areas of Spain. The temporary resting place around the hermitage ultimately became the modern town of San Roque founded in 1706. The Allied conduct aroused anger in Spain against the 'heretics, and the chance of winning over Andalusians to the Imperial cause was lost. Several counter attacks by sea and land followed but all were repelled by the English and Dutch marines and Spaniards loyal to Charles."
6. Justin then returned to the Parallels to insert a brief (and possibly defensible) comment: "In turn, Spain's position is criticised as anomalous, whilst it maintain the enclaves of Ceuta and Melila in Moroccan territory." I reverted almost all of these edits anyway to await consensus. Discussion in the Overview section above was getting lost in Justin's complaints (as opposed to relevant comments) about how the present text was achieved: "In actual fact, there was no consensus for including this material - you and others chose to tag team edit war that material into the article. And again you drag up the past and use the threat of admin action to impose content rather than discussing. There is also a major inconsistency in your approach. Above you insist we shouldn't include material on the grounds you assert it is relevant to Spain but tangential to Gibraltar; an argument that isn't sustainable given the prominence in sources. Yet something that is tangential to Gibraltar but relevant to Spain you insist must be included and edit war to impose it. I am prepared to discuss it but if you insist on personaling this discussion as a dispute and make personal attacks and accusations as you've done at ANI I will be going to arbitration enforcement. I have given you plenty of warnings. Justin talk 00:55, 11 October 2010 (UTC)"
7. In the hope of getting discussion back on track I started the section above "Request for one-line comments on proposed changes". As will be clear from the diffs here, the proposals listed were direct quotations (some trivially amended) from Justin's edits. Justin then complained about ownership of the article, and wrote (above): "The comment above is not the proposal, reflecting a continued theme of anything I suggest being misrepresented. I have clearly made the contents of my proposal plain above. Please also note that sources support my suggestion and that the content of sources has been grossly misrepresented."
Even from Justin, this seemed remarkable. It appears impossible to engage Justin in a meaningful discussion at all. If he disclaims his own edits and refuses to write any other proposals, I really cannot understand how anybody is supposed to guess what his proposals actually are. At this point, and considering Justin's immense past history of argumentation, I came to the conclusion that as long as Justin continues to edit in this fashion, this article will remain bogged in futile wrangles. I should add that I do not merely assume good faith, I judge that he is editing in good faith, but without displaying sufficient competence to conduct a constructive discussion. I will remind him that the arbitration remedies included specifically "Editors wishing to edit in the area of dispute are advised to edit carefully, to adopt Wikipedia's communal approaches (including appropriate conduct, dispute resolution...", and that advice on dispute resolution includes "Resolve disputes calmly, through civil discussion and consensus-building on relevant discussion pages.". Making highly contentious edits and following them with semi-relevant wrangles, accusations, and disclaimers does not help us to build a better encyclopedia and it is a behaviour pattern which might reasonably attract enforcement action under the terms of the existing arbitration decision.
I do have a suggestion which I hope will allow Justin's knowledge and interest to be used constructively. If we all wish to put suggested edits on the talk page, with references, and then to engage in clear, relevant, and specific discussion in accordance with Wikipedia's principles, this would be welcome and useful. I really hope that he does so. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 12:19, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
UNINDENT
Richard alleges that it is impossible to have a meaningful discussion alleging I'm somehow unclear, that I cannot be understood.
“ | One, is the behaviour of the troops, two, is a fear of revenge following the murders of the British and Dutch troops followed by descration of their remains and, three, there was a natural expectation of a Spanish counter attack and a full blooded battle in the town. I personally feel that latter is the one that most stands up to logical examination as by the time of the exodus order had been restored. | ” |
I add the emphasis to make plain a personal opinion on one of the reasons for the exodus. Which you will note I amplified in the following sentence and that I acknowledge as a personal opinion, with the additional point that personal opion is not the basis. All have been previously advanced as reasons for the exodus. The argument I present is supported by the source: Jackson, William (1990). The Rock of the Gibraltarians. A History of Gibraltar (2nd ed.). Grendon, Northamptonshire, UK: Gibraltar Books. pp. 100-101. ISBN 0-948466-14-6. :
“ | Fortresses changed hands quite frequently in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. The English hold on Gibraltar might be only temporary. When the fortunes of war changed, the Spanish citizens would be able to re-occupy their property and rebuild their lives. | ” |
I would hope there would be agreement that the sources supports the expectation of a counter attack. So I do not understand why you are demanding I provide a sources for a comment that is not my principal argument. Perhaps you could elaborate for the reason for doing so. Equally perhaps you could explain why Pfainuk is attacked for suggesting that my comments have merit, alleging he is responsible for introducing this throw away line.
Opinions please
I'd like to ask for opinions on whether to remove the present sentence:
"The
terms of surrender provided certain assurances but commanders lost control, sailors and marines engaged in rape and
pillage, desecrating most churches, and townspeople carried out reprisal killings."
Richard Keatinge (
talk)
11:37, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
On 4 August 1704, during the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo-Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. The terms of surrender provided certain assurances but commanders lost control, sailors and marines engaged in rape and pillage, desecrating most churches, and townspeople carried out reprisal killings. By 7 August, after order was restored, almost all the population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and fled to San Roque and other nearby areas of Spain.
On 4 August 1704, during the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo-Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. By 7 August, after order was restored, almost all the population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and fled to San Roque and other nearby areas of Spain.
Or alternatively, per a recent bold edit, to expand the paragraph to: " After a heavy naval bombardment on 2 August, the marines launched a pincer attack on the town, advancing south from the isthmus and north from Europa Point. [2] Gibraltar's defenders were well stocked with food and ammunition but were heavily outnumbered and outgunned. The Spanish position was clearly untenable and on the morning of 4 November, the governor, Diego de Salinas, agreed to surrender. [3] Rooke remembered the looting at Cádiz but could not prevent a repetition at Gibraltar. Hesse's and Rooke's senior officers did their utmost to impose discipline but lost control in the days following the capture, sailors and marines engaged in rape and pillage, desecrating most churches, and townspeople carried out reprisal killings [4] [5] [6] [7]. The terms of surrender provided certain assurances (Article V promised freedom or religion and full civil rights to all Spaniards who wished to stay in Hapsburg Gibraltar), the perpetrators of crimes against the population were severely punished [8], order was restored but by 7 August the majority population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and opted to leave. [5] They initially settled around the hermitage of San Roque later dispersing into nearby areas of Spain. The temporary resting place around the hermitage ultimately became the modern town of San Roque founded in 1706. The Allied conduct aroused anger in Spain against the 'heretics, and the chance of winning over Andalusians to the Imperial cause was lost. Several counter attacks by sea and land followed but all were repelled by the English and Dutch marines and Spaniards loyal to Charles." Richard Keatinge ( talk) 11:37, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
And, on whether to remove the mention of San Roque as the main destination: Richard Keatinge ( talk) 11:37, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
And, whether to insert the sentence: "In turn, Spain's position is criticised as anomalous, whilst it maintain the enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla in Moroccan territory." Richard Keatinge ( talk) 11:37, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
And,whether to include in the lede the comment "self-governing"? At present this is omitted, leaving the issue for the main body of the article, which presently reads "Under its current Constitution, Gibraltar has almost complete internal democratic self-government through an elected parliament. The head of state is Queen Elizabeth II, who is represented by the Governor of Gibraltar. Defence, foreign policy and internal security are formally the responsibility of the Governor; judicial and other appointments are also made on behalf of the Queen in consultation with the head of the elected government.". Richard Keatinge ( talk) 14:11, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
OK, let's try a qualified mention of self-government. Should we include in the lede a comment of "largely self-governing", "mostly self-governing", "self-governing with some reserved powers", or some other closely similar formulation, the detail to be decided later?
In response to Pfainuk's call below for greater specificity, I ask: should we include in the lede the phrase "self-governing with some reserved powers". I would support this or any other accurate comment. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 07:09, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
“ | La reforma del decreto constitucional no modifica el estatus internacional de Gibraltar y, aunque desarrolla su autogobierno, no altera la soberanía británica sobre el Peñón, el cual sigue siendo un territorio dependiente del Reino Unido, de cuyas relaciones exteriores y defensa sigue siendo responsable. | ” |
“ | The reform of the constitutional decree does not change the international status of Gibraltar and, although self-government develops, does not alter British sovereignty over Gibraltar, which remains a dependent territory of the United Kingdom, for whose external relations and defense are still responsible. | ” |
“ | Gibraltar es un Territorio Británico de Ultramar, dotado de un estatus específico dentro de la Unión Europea (UE). Está excluido del Territorio Aduanero Común y de la Política Agrícola Común (PAC), de la Política Pesquera Común y del requisito de recaudar el Impuesto sobre el Valor Añadido (IVA). | ” |
“ | Gibraltar is a British Overseas Territory, which has a special status within the European Union (EU). It is excluded from the Customs Territory and Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) of the Common Fisheries Policy and the requirement to collect Value Added Tax (VAT). | ” |
“ | Gibraltar (English pronunciation: /dʒɪˈbrɔːltɚ/) is a self-governing British overseas territory with the UK retaining responsibility for foreign relations and defence. It is located on the southern end of the Iberian Peninsula at the entrance of the Mediterranean, overlooking the Strait of Gibraltar. | ” |
“ | The sovereignty of Gibraltar is a major point of contention in Anglo-Spanish relations as Spain asserts a claim to the territory and seeks its return.[4] Gibraltarians resoundingly rejected proposals for Spanish sovereignty in referendums held in 1967 and 2002. Under its new constitution, Gibraltar has almost complete internal self-government [17]. | ” |
unindent
I'm sorry but I cannot accept that as a proposal, since it does not reflect what the majority of sources say. Going forward I feel it is necessary to establish a few ground rules.
Establishing some ground rules would help frame the discussions and cease the endless arguments over points that have been explained more times than I care to count. Justin talk 13:16, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
I suggest that acceptable solutions would include:
Richard Keatinge ( talk) 14:08, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
UNINDENT
I have commented on Justin's proposal and made another proposal trying to find some common ground, in line with Justin's and Pfainuk's desire to make sure that the lede indicates that Gibraltar is part of the group of BOTs with a large degree of self-government. Richard has given his (positive) opinion about it. Please, Justin and Pfainuk, could you explain what's your view about it? Do you find it acceptable? Do you find anything wrong about it? My proposal was:
“ | The sovereignty of Gibraltar is a major point of contention in Anglo-Spanish relations as Spain asserts a claim to the territory and seeks its return.[4] Gibraltarians resoundingly rejected proposals for Spanish sovereignty in referendums held in 1967 and 2002. Under its new constitution, Gibraltar has almost complete internal self-government [20]. | ” |
Thank you very much for your time and interest! -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 20:59, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
We seem to be squeezing closer and closer to actual agreement. We now have: Under its new constitution, Gibraltar: either - has almost complete internal self-government or - is self-governing except for reserved powers including defence and foreign relations
Or possibly both, because I have just re-read the rest of this page and I really don't see any important difference, either semantic or relating to Wikipedia policies, between them. I have to say that if I was trying to emphasize the degree of self-government, I'd slightly prefer Imalbornoz's version, and it's also shorter. But both are correct, encyclopedic, acceptable. Who else is prepared to accept either? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 19:22, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
“ | Most Overseas Territories have elected governments. These have varying degrees of responsibility for domestic matters, ranging from Bermuda and Gibraltar which have almost complete internal self-government to Tristan da Cunha and the Pitcairn Islands, where the Governor is the law-making authority and there are only advisory councils. In the majority of Territories the Governor has special responsibility for defence, external affairs and internal security (including the police, the public service, and administration of the courts). In Anguilla, Montserrat and the Turks and Caicos Islands the Governor also has special responsibility for financial services. In St Helena the Governor is responsible for finance and shipping. | ” |
OK It boils down to this. Do we go with text that the majority of the sources reflect per WP:NPOV and WP:DUE, as per the text I suggest, fully in line with wikipedia's policy of WP:V. This is a proposal that all bar 1 editor finds acceptable. The alternative which was not supported by 3 editors relies on a single source. If there is not a substantive policy based objection to the proposal that has majority support then I propose we insert it within one week. I am disappointed that once again, as Pfainuk note, accusations of partisanship have crept in, equally disappointing is that positions are being repeatedly stated, counter arguments ignored and those accursed accusations substituted instead. Justin talk 10:19, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Coming back to the phrase "is self-governing except for reserved powers including defence and foreign relations". I'm quite happy with it, but Imalbornoz, whose English is excellent, says that he doesn't understand it too well. Perhaps it could be clearer while preserving the meaning? What about "is self-governing except for powers reserved to the UK Government, which include defence and foreign relations"? Does that make the comment clearer? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 17:15, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Gibraltar (English pronunciation: /dʒɪˈbrɔːltɚ/) is a British overseas territory located on the southern end of the Iberian Peninsula at the entrance of the Mediterranean, overlooking the Strait of Gibraltar. The territory itself is a peninsula of 6.843 square kilometres (2.642 sq mi) whose isthmus connects to the north with Spain. The Rock of Gibraltar is the major landmark of the region and gives its name to the densely populated area with city status, it is home to almost 30,000 Gibraltarians.
An Anglo-Dutch force captured Gibraltar in 1704 during the War of the Spanish Succession. The territory was subsequently ceded to Britain by Spain under the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713. It became an important base for the British Royal Navy, which drove the local economy and provided employment for a large portion of the local population. Today its economy is based largely on tourism, financial services and shipping. It is self-governing except for powers reserved to the UK Government, which include defence and foreign relations.
The sovereignty of Gibraltar is a major point of contention in Anglo-Spanish relations as Spain asserts a claim to the territory and seeks its return.[4] Gibraltarians resoundingly rejected proposals for Spanish sovereignty in referenda held in 1967 and 2002.
I'd be happy to put that in, or quite a few other variants. Indeed I propose to insert it within the next couple of days, unless anybody really objects. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 09:12, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
“ | Gibraltar (English pronunciation: /dʒɪˈbrɔːltɚ/) is a British overseas territory located on the southern end of the Iberian Peninsula. Gibraltar is self-governing except for powers reserved to the UK Government, which include defence and foreign relations. The territory itself is a peninsula of 6.843 square kilometres (2.642 sq mi) whose isthmus connects to the north with Spain. The Rock of Gibraltar is the major landmark of the region and gives its name to the densely populated area with city status, it is home to almost 30,000 Gibraltarians. | ” |
“ | Gibraltar (English pronunciation: /dʒɪˈbrɔːltɚ/) is a British overseas territory located on the southern end of the Iberian Peninsula. Gibraltar is self-governing except for powers reserved to the UK Government, which include defence and foreign relations. The territory itself is a peninsula of 6.843 square kilometres (2.642 sq mi) whose isthmus connects to the north with Spain. The Rock of Gibraltar is the major landmark of the region and gives its name to the densely populated area with city status, it is home to almost 30,000 Gibraltarians. | ” |
Alternatively we could have the shorter formulation: "Gibraltar is self-governing except for some powers reserved to the UK Government." Can we settle for one or the other? I'm happy with both. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 08:21, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
(unindent) Moving on, and taking Justin's point about other minor improvements to the lede, how about this one?
“ | Gibraltar (English pronunciation: /dʒɪˈbrɔːltɚ/) is a British overseas territory located on the southern end of the Iberian Peninsula. It is a peninsula of 6.843 square kilometres (2.642 sq mi) whose isthmus connects to the north with Spain. The Rock of Gibraltar is the major landmark of the region. At its foot is the densely populated area with city status, which is home to almost 30,000 Gibraltarians. Gibraltar is self-governing except for powers reserved to the UK Government, which include defence and foreign relations. | ” |
Richard Keatinge ( talk) 09:40, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
“ | Gibraltar (English pronunciation: /dʒɪˈbrɔːltɚ/) is a British overseas territory located on the southern end of the Iberian Peninsula. It is a peninsula of 6.843 square kilometres (2.642 sq mi) whose isthmus connects to the north with Spain. The Rock of Gibraltar is the major landmark of the region. At its foot is the densely populated city area, home to almost 30,000 Gibraltarians.
An Anglo-Dutch force captured Gibraltar in 1704 during the War of the Spanish Succession. The territory was subsequently ceded to Britain by Spain under the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713. It became an important base for the British Royal Navy, which drove the local economy and provided employment for a large portion of the local population. Today its economy is based largely on tourism, financial services and shipping.[3][4] The sovereignty of Gibraltar is a major point of contention in Anglo-Spanish relations as Spain asserts a claim to the territory and seeks its return.[4] Gibraltarians resoundingly rejected proposals for Spanish sovereignty in referenda held in 1967 and 2002. Under its current constitution Gibraltar is self-governing except for powers reserved to the UK Government, which include defence and foreign relations. |
” |
I do hope we don't need to argue about exactly where things go in the lede; I'd suggest that good organization takes precedence over any such issue. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 21:03, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
“ | Gibraltar (English pronunciation: /dʒɪˈbrɔːltɚ/) is a British overseas territory located on the southern end of the Iberian Peninsula. It is a peninsula of 6.843 square kilometres (2.642 sq mi) whose isthmus connects to the north with Spain. The Rock of Gibraltar is the major landmark of the region. At its foot is the densely populated city area, home to almost 30,000 Gibraltarians.
An Anglo-Dutch force captured Gibraltar in 1704 during the War of the Spanish Succession. The territory was subsequently ceded to Britain by Spain under the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713. It became an important base for the British Royal Navy, which drove the local economy and provided employment for a large portion of the local population. Today its economy is based largely on tourism, financial services and shipping.[3][4] The sovereignty of Gibraltar is a major point of contention in Anglo-Spanish relations as Spain asserts a claim to the territory and seeks its return.[4] Gibraltarians resoundingly rejected proposals for Spanish sovereignty in referenda held in 1967 and 2002. Under its current constitution Gibraltar has self-government except for powers reserved to the UK Government, which include defence and foreign relations. |
” |
UNINDENT
I've restored Richard's edit, supported by Pfainuk's amendment. There is clearly a consensus to add this. If Imalbornoz wishes to propose an improvement he can do so here. I hope we won't see edit warring to remove it.
Now moving on, this [21] and this [22] should have been an uncontroversial edit. Per WP:DUE and WP:NPOV they're clearly relevant and provide due coverage of the issue. Justin talk 13:48, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
I've never said or intended to imply that it was awkward because you are not a native speaker. I am an English native speaker and I certainly write awkward sentences sometimes, particularly when I try to change bits of already-written sentences. No, I rather figured you didn't get it because I hadn't explained it clearly enough.
Second, you claim to be trying to restore a stable consensus - but at the same time were reverting to a position that had never had and does not have consensus. If you're trying to return the text to the previous consensus position, why on earth are you edit warring to maintain a position that apparently does not have consensus and never has had consensus? While majorities do not define a consensus, let us note that Richard's text (of 21:03, 3 November) has the largest level of support that we've had since this whole thing started.
Third, I've just checked the Spanish government document. Sorry for the length, here are the sections I see that reference the word "autogobierno" ("self-governing"):
En el citado Comunicado Conjunto se añadía que el objetivo compartido de España y el Reino Unido era el de lograr un futuro en el que Gibraltar disfrutase de un mayor autogobierno y de la oportunidad de aprovechar plenamente los beneficios derivados de una convivencia normal con la región circunvecina.
In the cited joint communiqué [the British and Spanish governments] added that the shared objective of Spain and the United Kingdom was to achieve a future in which Gibraltar enjoys greater self-government and opportunity to fully exploit the benefits of normal coexistence with the surrounding region.
Su objetivo común era superar todas sus diferencias sobre Gibraltar y garantizar un futuro seguro para ese territorio, en el que Gibraltar conservase su modo de vida y sus tradiciones, gozase de un mayor autogobierno interno, aumentase su prosperidad de forma sostenible y recibiese todos los beneficios correspondientes a una cooperación armoniosa y mutuamente beneficiosa, en todos los terrenos, entre Gibraltar y el Campo de Gibraltar.
[The British and Spanish foreign ministers'] joint goal was to overcome all of their differences over Gibraltar and to guarantee a secure future for this territory, in which Gibraltar conserves her way of life and her traditions, enjoys greater internal self-government, increases her prosperity in a sustainable manner and receives all the benefits corresponding to a harmonious and mutually beneficial cooporation between Gibraltar and the Campo de Gibraltar in all fields.
Los gibraltareños serían consultados, en un referéndum, sobre el acuerdo una vez ultimado. Los gibraltareños tendrían más autogobierno, de acuerdo con el texto del acuerdo, y podrían preservar sus costumbres y cultura. La idea de que la soberanía compartida fuese una fórmula transitoria no era, según Peter Hain, aceptable para el Gobierno británico.
The Gibraltarians would be consulted, in a referendum, on [the joint sovereignty proposals of 2002] once they had been finalised. The Gibraltarians would have more self-government, in accordance with the text of the agreement, and would preserve their customs and culture. The idea that joint sovereignty would be a transitory formula was not, according to Peter Hain, acceptable to the British government.
Los gibraltareños debían entender que el acuerdo era en su mejor interés ya que tendrían un amplio autogobierno y mejores relaciones económicas con España. Si no aprovechaban esta oportunidad, España seguiría insistiendo para que Gibraltar siguiera estando excluido de los acuerdos de la UE.
[According to José María Aznar in an interview with the Guardian,] [t]he Gibraltarians should understand that [the joint sovereignty proposals of 2002] was in their best interests as they would get broad self-government and improve economic relations with Spain. If they didn't take this opportunity, Spain would continue to insist that Gibraltar be excluded from EU agreements.
La reforma del decreto constitucional no modifica el estatus internacional de Gibraltar y, aunque desarrolla su autogobierno, no altera la soberanía británica sobre el Peñón, el cual sigue siendo un territorio dependiente del Reino Unido, de cuyas relaciones exteriores y defensa sigue siendo responsable.
The reform of the constitutional decree does not modify the international status of Gibraltar and, though self-government develops, does not alter British sovereignty over the peninsula, which remains a dependent territory of the United Kingdom, which is still responsible for external relations and defence.
Thus I can find no evidence whatsoever to back up your claim that Spain says that Gibraltar is not self-governing. I note in passing that they do use the Spanish equivalent of the UN term, "territorio no autónomo" (non-autonomous territory), several times - and primarily in two contexts. It's used when describing Gibraltar's status in international law, and when describing Gibraltar's relationship with the UN. It does not use it to make any judgement as to Gibraltar's level of self-government.
We can move on to the UN. Resolution 1541 uses both the terms "self-governing" and "self-government" to refer to status. Not level of self-government, but political status. As such I see no reason to assume that one form of the word is any more controversial than the other, and thus no reason not to go for better English. Pfainuk talk 11:13, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
unindent ...Returning to constructive discourse, we have come very close to a consensus. What about the phrase "Gibraltar governs itself except..."? Alternatively "Under its 2006 constitution Gibraltar elects its own government; some powers including defence and foreign relations are reserved to the UK."? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 13:24, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
Also, I have copied the seedling discussion of Ceuta and Melilla to a new section below. Until we have consensus to insert it here, rather than under Foreign relations of Spain, this comment needs to be removed. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 13:24, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
A few comments on the above.
Ecemaml, there are few things more likely to be disruptive to progress on this page than editors dragging up the past. The four of us who have been in this discussion have avoided it for the last few days and we've managed to make some good headway on the matters in hand - progress that could not have been made had editors been focussed on the past rather than the future. I would strongly suggest that you do not jeopardise this progress by making any more such unhelpful comments.
Imalbornoz, consensus is not, and never has been, a matter of voting. The substance of the arguments made do matter as well. Just like here, we need to come to a position that all can accept. I will put my position in detail below, but we're going to need compromise there as well as here.
Richard, it still sounds a touch awkward to my ear, but am willing to accept something on the lines you propose. It may be a case of varying mileage, but I will make an edit to try and get something that sounds better to me. Pfainuk talk 18:57, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
there is no contradiction with the UN position but we don't explain the UN position so you can expect some POV troll to drop by in future and further disrupt the article.
As long as the UN allow the state of Israel to exist, I think there is no point in discussing other areas. Should there be a time limit (year), how the area was gained, what the inhabitants want, or what should decide who owns what? Why haven't the UN thrown Turkey out of Cyprus? This is a much more resent and devastating dispute than Gibraltar. An why do the Spaniards still occupy Moroccos cities? And what about the west Indies? When I see a Jamaican, Holland is of course the first thing on my mind. So please shut up! If it hadn't been for piracy and warfare, there would not have been any Britain nor Spain. Why shouldn't Denmark-Norway be given back southern Sweden? It belonged to them for centuries longer than it has been under Swedish reign. Why don't we start a new war right now? The winner takes it all! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.108.99.225 ( talk) 03:21, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
The proposal was to insert: "In turn, Spain's position is criticised as anomalous, whilst it maintain the enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla in Moroccan territory." Richard Keatinge ( talk) 11:37, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
And once again, this isn't the edit, I corrected a POV error in my proposal already. Since when did we have scrutiny of well-written sourced and relevant material? Which policy change did I miss? Justin talk 13:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
WP:NPOVN#Ceuta, Melilla and Gibraltar Please allow outside comment without flooding the page with walls of text. Justin talk 20:02, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
So just to check, your proposal is:
“ | In turn, Spain's position is criticised as anomalous, whilst it maintains the enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla (claimed by Morocco) on the North African coast. [9] [10] | ” |
Is that right? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 22:56, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
I note that I now have a "cabal". So far I have generally been ignoring any comments that don't seem offer any contribution to improving the article. But if you want to discuss matters of this sort, perhaps your talk page or mine would be the best place? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 12:29, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Having looked through the article while reviewing the previous point, I noticed with surprise that no significant discussion of the dispute is included in the Politics section of this article. Whereas detailed discussion of the dispute properly belongs on the (sadly dreadful) dispute article, and there is clearly more to Gibraltar politics than the relationship with Spain, this is nonetheless an important part of Gibraltar politics and should properly be discussed.
I thus suggest that the following, or something like it, be included underneath that section, and that the third paragraph (on the UN) be removed as redundant.
--
Relations with Spain
Spain, while recognising British sovereignty over the town of Gibraltar, requests that the territory be handed over to Spanish control, arguing that Gibraltar's status undermines Spain's territorial integrity.<Spanish government document discussed above> In response, the British government argues that the Gibraltarian people have the right to self-determination, limited only by the Treaty of Utrecht, which gives Spain "first refusal" if the British decide to leave.< this FCO doc, page 5, marked as page 58> The Gibraltar government, for its part, argues that Gibraltarians have an unlimited right to self-determination.< this Times article>
Two referendums on the subject have been held, in 1967 (on a handover to Spain) and 2002 (on the principle of joint sovereignty). In each case, more than 98% of voters rejected the outlined change. Both referenda were opposed by the Spanish government.<Sources from the articles on the referendums>
Spain further asserts that British sovereignty only extends to those areas explicitly mentioned by the Treaty of Utrecht. On this basis, Spain disputes Britain's claim to sovereignty over the isthmus connecting Gibraltar with Spain and does not recognise any right of Gibraltar to territorial waters, for example.<the same Spanish gov't document> The UK and Gibraltar governments do not accept any such limitations on British sovereignty,< this Gibraltar Chronicle article> and claim the isthmus based on longstanding occupation.< same FCO doc>
Gibraltar is included on the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories. While the British and Gibraltar governments argue for removal, stating that Gibraltar has effectively been decolonised, Spain opposes such attempts, and Spanish commentators still commonly describe Gibraltar as a colony.<Same references as now>
--
References are provided in <angle brackets>. Thoughts? Pfainuk talk 21:28, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
(ec with Imalbornoz, 18:47 11 Nov. 2010) Ecemaml, while your quote is accurate, your statement that my phrase is not fully supported by the source is not. If you check the first line under "Sovereignty", you will see the words: Under the Treaty of Utrecht, Spain has right of ‘first refusal’ should Britain decide to relinquish sovereignty over Gibraltar. This is a British government POV, so is couched in those terms in my proposal.
The other points you list would appear to me to be so far beyond the point of reasonable summary that it would be unacceptable to me. Better to have no change than to create a WP:COATRACK on the detail of the referenda, which would be the effect of your proposal.
The only reason the text mentions the referenda is to point out implications of the British and Gibraltar POV: that self-determination effectively means the status quo. If we're mentioning the referenda to make a point about current politics (as I propose), it seems fair to point out that these were not conducted with Spanish consent as might otherwise be inferred - that Spain did not implicitly accept self-determination through the referenda. What the UN had to say on a referendum in 1967 in its non-binding opinion is pretty irrelevant to the political situation as of 2010.
The point made about the UN is independently relevant - it would be relevant even if there were no dispute. I propose it go in this section only because it would be illogical to go into the British and Spanish positions on the C24 listing before mentioning why they might care. And I agree with Justin that a reference to GA resolution 1541 would not be inappropriate to give context to the C24 list - again, it would be relevant as of 2010 regardless of the dispute, unlike the UN resolutions noted.
As to Richard's point regarding referencing - the article on the 1967 referendum is surprisingly bare of references, so I've had a look online. This book (p33) was the first I found, and it makes the point well enough. Pfainuk talk 18:50, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
I have moved the detail about the number of inhabitants who are local citizens from the lede to the Demography section, with its reference. I hope this is helpful. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 13:33, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
I am restoring the previous text, which is the established consensus, and restoring the wikilink associated with it. Gibraltarian applies to both native born and residents. So the edit and lede fixation was unnecessary. The removal of the wikilink to an article that explains the demographics has left the article poorer. I trust we can have a mature level headed discussion about changing the consensus rather than further incivility. Justin talk 12:26, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
UNINDENT
I think that the reason why the current version does not sound fine in my ear is because it's like adding apples to pears:
Or maybe I am missing some subtlety of the English language? (e.g. that nationalities can also be colloquially used to mean individuals?)
If Justin wants to keep the link to Gibraltarian people (which is fine with me), what about:
Does it sound any better, or does anybody have a better alternative? -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 10:09, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
All users are reminded that this article is subject to sanctions under the ARBCOM rulings on Gibraltar. Please remember that we have specific policies for multiple reverts and for edit waring. Since there are no significant edits in the past day or so I have not issued blocks. I hope we do not come to that. All an encouraged to continue discussions on the talk page, respect all editors and avoid edit summaries and comments that may be deemed uncivil. Thanks JodyB talk 19:49, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
I am expanding the warning to include incivility on the part of all. Vigorous debate is encouraged but focus on the content and not the editors. Badgering, name calling and other forms of dispute are blockable offenses as under the ARBCOM ruling. JodyB talk 14:27, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
On 4 August 1704, during the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo-Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. The terms of surrender provided certain assurances but commanders lost control, sailors and marines engaged in rape and pillage, desecrating most churches, and townspeople carried out reprisal killings. By 7 August, after order was restored, almost all the population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and fled to San Roque and other nearby areas of Spain.
be changed to:
On 4 August 1704, during the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo-Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. By 7 August, after order was restored, almost all the population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and left for nearby areas of Spain.
I have a number of problems with the sentence "The terms of surrender provided certain assurances but commanders lost control, sailors and marines engaged in rape and pillage, desecrating most churches, and townspeople carried out reprisal killings." In the first instance, it is a classic example of WP:CHERRY, picking out facts to make a point not supported by the original texts. As written it implies the evil Anglo-Dutch forces were deliberately beastly to the population to force them to leave. There are number of key factors that are not included here that would be relevant if this text is to persist. First of all the Anglo-Dutch forces and their Spanish allies had the objective of seeking support for their cause from the people, so the activities of some of their forces was disastrous as it alienated the population. Secondly, the forces tried desperately to control their troops and severely punished the offenders; the rapists were hanged for example. Thirdly, another factor in the exodus was an expected Spanish counter attack in the near future. The population believed they would return shortly. Fourthly, to say they fled to San Roque is emotive language, they did not flee, they chose to leave and they left unmolested. If anything in the article is WP:SYN this phrasing is it. Finally, the use of English language is poor the sentence structure is appalling and it reads badly. Not the product of quality writing for a quality encyclopedia.
Secondly, mention of San Roque. I am aware that this is mentioned in historical texts as a destination. The point that it is sourced is not the issue here. There are many other destinations such as Algeciras and other towns founded nearby, which we do not think to mention. I believe this is another example of WP:CHERRY picking out a fact for inclusion, which is only tangentially related to Gibraltar. In addition, we risk WP:COATRACK due to the importance attached to San Roque by certain ardent nationalists, whereby the people of San Roque are claimed to be the "real Gibraltarians" and the only ones who can determine the future of Gibraltar. Now I do not claim that consideration of offending or otherwise a particular nationalist group should ever be a reason for suppressing content but we should not shirk from considering whether mention improves the article or merely sates a nationalist aspiration to provide a WP:COATRACK for expressing nationalist sentiment. How long before someone decides to put in the fact that the Spanish consider San Roque to be the "real Gibraltar". Finally, San Roque was in fact founded in 1706, some 2 years later. Yes, it was founded by the people who left Gibraltar but it didn't exist as a town in 1704. So basically the article says they went to a town that didn't exist at the time and I'm sorry but I really don't see that as an example of quality writing for a quality encyclopedia.
This is a overview article, rather than a full account of historical events, and it now seems to me that we would need to put in an excessive number of details to achieve consensus text that treats these events in a neutral manner. A NPOV blow-by-blow account of the whole thing, including the who did what to whom, who went where, towns that were founded in SPAIN not GIBRALTAR, and so on, just seems too much for an incident in a overview. Personally I'd go for slimming down the text as above, which no doubt will satisfy no one but treat the incident in a neutral manner. As I have pointed out many times, I do not feel the article benefits from a pre-occupation with what I refer to as "atrocity tennis". Justin talk 12:48, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
On 4 August 1704, during the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo-Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. Following three days of disorder, almost all of the townspeople (had?) left for nearby areas of Spain (including the hermitage of San Roque).
“ | On 4 August 1704, during the
War of the Spanish Succession, a combined
Anglo-
Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. After a heavy naval bombardment on 2 August, the marines launched a pincer attack on the town, advancing south from the isthmus and north from Europa Point.
[11] Gibraltar's defenders were well stocked with food and ammunition but were heavily outnumbered and outgunned. The Spanish position was clearly untenable and on the morning of 4 November, the governor, Diego de Salinas, agreed to surrender.
[12] Rooke remembered the looting at Cádiz but could not prevent a repetition at Gibraltar. Hesse's and Rooke's senior officers did their utmost to impose discipline but lost control in the days following the capture, sailors and marines engaged in rape and
pillage, desecrating most churches, and townspeople carried out reprisal killings
[13]
[5]
[14]
[15]. The
terms of surrender provided certain assurances (Article V promised freedom or religion and full civil rights to all Spaniards who wished to stay in Hapsburg Gibraltar), the perpetrators of crimes against the population were severely punished
[16], order was restored but by 7 August the majority population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and opted to leave.
[5] They initially settled around the hermitage of San Roque later dispersing into
nearby areas of Spain. The temporary resting place around the hermitage ultimately became the modern town of
San Roque founded in 1706. The Allied conduct aroused anger in Spain against the 'heretics, and the chance of winning over Andalusians to the Imperial cause was lost.
Several counter attacks by sea and land followed but all were repelled by the English and Dutch marines and Spaniards loyal to Charles. |
” |
May I just point out something from my earlier comment Please note that I'm not suggesting we don't need to mention the violence that occurred. I couldn't make this any plainer. Imalbornoz responds I honestly believe that the violence during the capture and the exile to San Roque is noteworthy enough to be mentioned in the article. I make the point that starting a premise like this in response to my comments can all too easily be interpreted as not listening. Justin talk 13:40, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
If you have come here to assist in the RFC we all thank you. There is considerable discussion about the nature of the lead. Please discuss this with us and offer your ideas and comments about the various points you will find below. Thank you so much! JodyB talk 11:18, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
Would you think it helpful to retry an RFC on this point only? I know that a previous attempt did not really produce any outsiders. However we could go to some of the involved projects and ask for input. I'll be glad to arrange it and canvass for outside opinions. You have all done good work here and I sense you are trying to reach consensus but have reached a good faith stalemate. If you are interested let me know. Each should prepare the paragraph/sentence of his choosing. We will create the section, start the RFC and ask for help. JodyB talk 11:28, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
I think the consensus is to move toward and RFC. Notifying others may or may not be inappropropriate. That is why I offered do it. Since I am not involved in the editing of the page except in an administrative manner, it would be less likely I would be accused of canvassing inappropriately. Please reconsider and continue to work with us. JodyB talk 02:41, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Only minimally changed from the current version:
“ | On 4 August 1704, during the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo- Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. The terms of surrender provided assurances of security but commanders lost control, sailors and marines engaged in rape and pillage, desecrating most churches, and townspeople carried out reprisal killings. [17] [5] [18] [19] On 7 August, after order was restored, almost all the population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and left for San Roque and other nearby areas of Spain. [5] | ” |
Ecemaml has usefully supplied two pages with relevant references: User:Ecemaml/Nursery/Exodus of the Spanish population of Gibraltar in 1704 and User:Ecemaml/Selected quotations about Gibraltar
We have three sentences. The first is uncontroversial, though I suppose we could add something to indicate that the date given is New Style. The second mentions the terms of surrender, the serious violence of the attacking force despite those terms, and the violence with which some of the townspeople responded. These are well-referenced; they are also an ongoing part of the Spanish discourse on the question of Gibraltar. I won't quote from certain offensive remarks made by a now-absent editor, but it seems that there is also a nationalist British discourse that prefers to see the previous inhabitants as morally inferior beings who committed crimes after surrender; the fact of illegitimate expulsion is seen as relevant to modern issues of legitimacy.
The third sentence mentions the main reason for the final exodus, namely fear, and specifies the main initial destination, San Roque. San Roque was a hamlet with a shrine, a few kilometres north of the Rock of Gibraltar, within the Campo, the townlands, of Gibraltar. It became a refugee camp and in due course a town, which remains proud of its continuity with Spanish Gibraltar. I copy from its English Wikipedia article: " San Roque's official motto is "Very Noble and Very Loyal city of San Roque, where Gibraltar lives on" (Spanish: Muy Noble y Muy Leal ciudad de San Roque, donde reside la de Gibraltar)." The fact of San Roque as a destination is also well-referenced - see Ecemaml's pages - and its ongoing self-image is again a major part of one modern nationalist discourse and very upsetting to the other. If necessary I could reference the archives to make this point.
Both the importance of certain facts to one discourse, and their heartfelt rejection by another, contribute to the importance of the facts in these two sentences. It is not possible to reduce them significantly without omitting points that were significant at the time and are still fundamental to the modern political discussion. It would be possible to argue for slight expansion, and no doubt the points could also be phrased better, but I feel that the version above is one of the best available and as good as anything I can think of.
I'm off to be educated in cardiology and will check this page again tomorrow. Thank you for reading this. Richard Keatinge ( talk) 18:56, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
“ | Fortresses changed hands quite frequently in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. The English hold on Gibraltar might be only temporary. When the fortunes of war changed, the Spanish citizens would be able to re-occupy their property and rebuild their lives. | ” |
UNINDENT
What? Where do you see in that text that it says that the population were afraid of a Spanish counter attack? Or is it a conclusion that you reach by yourself? On the other hand, the source clearly says that "English atrocities at Cádiz and elsewhere and the behaviour of the English sailors in the first days after the surrender suggested that if they stayed they might not live to see that day." and "By the time discipline was fully restored, few of the inhabitants wished or dared to remain."
BTW, I am sure that Bosnia was a terrible experience, but you should know that "I've seen it time and time again in Bosnia, I know how it works, I've seen the way refugees act." is exactly what WP:OR is about... -- Imalbornoz ( talk) 10:31, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
As an aside Richard, you have raised the spectre of nationalism again, which of course has led to comments about various nationalist groups' tendency to rewrite history to support modern claims. May I suggest you rewrite your justification to avoid mention of various nationalist apiration as they have no relevance to writing an encyclopedia. We should be writing for our readers based on a NPOV of the history and the only notice we should take of such sentiments is to be careful to avoid favouring one or the other. Justin talk 15:22, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
I agree to the above, and feel it useful to divide proposals with headings. My proposal would be:
On 4 August 1704, during the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo-Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. Following three days of violence, almost all of the townspeople left for nearby areas of Spain (including the hermitage of San Roque).
I would argue that:
Note that I will be away for a few days as noted above, and may not respond in a very timely manner.
Pfainuk talk 09:09, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Would someone please remind Imalbornoz of talk page etiquette as I have done, time and time again, that edits such as this [50] are unacceptable as they change the narrative of the discussion. He has been warned time and time again about this - please ask the admin user:Atama.
Aside from anything, this is the opinion of one author and opinions are not facts. As I anticipated, I doubt any RFC has a chance as he can't resist interfering and he has an utter inability to separate opinion from fact. Justin talk 23:45, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
I just wanted to comment on a throw away line. "Officers seldom hang their own men for no reason, to say no more." Dans ce pays-ci, il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres. Sadly yes they do [52], especially if there is a politic imperative. Justin talk 00:04, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
I have two suggestions:
“ | On 4 August 1704, during the
War of the Spanish Succession, a combined
Anglo-
Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. Following a heavy naval bombardment on 2 August, marines launched a pincer attack on the town.
[20] Gibraltar's defenders although well stocked with food and ammunition were heavily outnumbered and outgunned. The position was clearly untenable and in the morning the Spanish governor surrendered.
[21] Rooke remembered the looting at Cádiz but could not prevent a repetition at Gibraltar. Senior officers did their utmost to impose discipline but lost control in the days following the capture, sailors and marines ran amok
[22]
[5]
[23]
[24]. This aroused anger in Spain against the 'heretics, and the chance of winning over Andalusians to the Imperial cause was lost. The
terms of surrender provided certain assurances (Article V promised freedom of religion and full civil rights to all Spaniards who wished to stay in Hapsburg Gibraltar), the perpetrators of crimes against the population were severely punished
[25] and order restored but by 7 August the majority of the population felt staying was too dangerous and opted to leave.
[5] Anticipating a Spanish counter attack and that they would shortly return
[26], they initially settled around the hermitage of San Roque later dispersing into
nearby areas of Spain. The temporary resting place around the hermitage ultimately became the modern town of
San Roque founded in 1706.
Several counter attacks by sea and land followed but all were repelled by the English and Dutch marines and Spaniards loyal to Charles. |
” |
My second, more compact suggestion:
“ | During the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo-Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar on 4 August 1704 [27]. Attempts to win over the population to the Imperial cause were frustrated by the disorder [28] that followed. The effects of this, combined with the expectation of a Spanish counter attack [29] led most of the townspeople to leave, settling initially around the nearby hermitage of San Roque. | ” |
I don't propose to justify this, I have confidence in the community to select the best text that represents a neutral point of view, giving due coverage of key issues and avoiding words that label or cherry picking from sources or creating a coat rack for modern irredentist claims. Thank you. Justin talk 23:36, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
And a third even more compact version without tangential information:
“ | During the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo-Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar on 4 August 1704 [30]. Attempts to win over the population to the Imperial cause were frustrated by the disorder [31] that followed. The effects of this, combined with the expectation of a Spanish counter attack [32] led most of the townspeople to leave. | ” |
Thank you and goodnight. Justin talk 18:54, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
{{
cite web}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
(
help) Of course, Spain argues this while happily sitting on a dozen separate enclaves on another continent, Africa, including two cities, in the territory of what would otherwise naturally be the territory of the Kingdom of Morocco.
Spain passionately believes these to be Spanish by virtue of history, the passage of time (around 500 years) and the fact that the Kingdom of Morocco did not exist at that time in the same legal form as it exists now. With respect, those distinctions seem wholly insufficient to justify Spain holding and advocating diametrically opposed positions in the cases of Gibraltar and her own enclaves in North Africa just 15 kilometres away from Gibraltar across the Strait of Gibraltar.
{{
cite web}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
(
help) In this respect, the Spanish have a convincing argument that the British occupation of Gibraltar is anomalous given its location compared to Britain. However, such an argument is undermined by Spain’s similar occupation of Ceuta and Melilla in Northern Africa.