![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I found these quotes (Mamoru Oshii is know to be concern by religious implications since his earlier age)
"Innocence is life untested, but virtue is innocence tested and triumphant" in WH Griffith Thomas, Hebrews: A Devotional Commentary, found at [1]
He learned obedience in the sense that He learned to obey His father's will as a human. For Jesus, God's will involved suffering (cf. Phil. 2:6-8). "Innocence is life untested, but virtue is innocence tested and triumphant." note 153
"Innocence was lost and conscience was born"
Another quote related to Adam and Eve in W. H. Griffith Thomas, The Book of Genesis.
"And banished from man's life his happiest life,Simplicity and spotless innocence!" Paradise Lost, by John Milton
The movie is so full of quotes i mean it is really a part of Oshii work... -- Neuromancien 09:26, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Removed this link while editing. I can't read japanese, can anyone tell me if it's useful? http://www8.ocn.ne.jp/~medaka/diary-innocence.html . Kim Bruning 07:26, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
Often, the title seems to be given as "Ghost In The Shell: Innocence", "Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence" or even just "Innocence" - in fact, "Innocence: Ghost in the Shell" seems to be the least-used form of title. IMDB entry, for example. I know this is being a bit picky, but it would be good if we could figure out which is the best title to put the article under.
In any case, I've set up several redirects in the meantime, since someone could use any of the names - plus a disambiguation page for "Ghost in the Shell 2", which a lot of people seem to call it. (No disambiguation for "Innocence", though.) I'm not 100% sure these are entirely neccesary, but they should all help people find this entry more easily. - makomk 13:13, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The correct name would be Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence, would it not? That's how movie titles work ... main title number: subtitle. I think the whole "Innocence: Ghost in the Shell 2" thing is just a mistranslation that, for whatever reason, is still around. -- Cyde Weys talk contribs 12:28, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
The official title of the movie IS Innocence:Ghost in the Shell. This is the title on original press materials, and the title the film was entered into the Cannes Film Festival under. The confusion about the title started when Dreamworks decided to rename the movie Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence for its release in the USA. The title should be changed back to Innocence: Ghost in the Shell for the Wikipedia page, as that is the film's original English title.
I changed what the article said about the movie literally quoting Isaac Asimov's Third Law of Robotics. I don't know Japanese nearly well enough to tell how close the translation was, but the subtitles on my copy say that "Moral Code #3" is "Maintain existence without harming humans." Allowing for variations in translation, English to Japanese and back again, this still sounds like it leaves out a chunk of the Law, i.e., obeying the orders of human beings. It's a clear reference, all right, but not a literal quotation.
Babelfish humor:
The Japanese Wikipedia article on the Three Laws translates the Third Law as "ロボットは、前掲第一条および第二条に反するおそれのないかぎり、自己をまもらなければならない。". (They provide the original English phrasing too.) Running this back through Babelfish produces "If as for the robot, the aforementioned Ichijo or there is no possibility of opposing to second provision, oneself must be protected."
And gosh, don't I feel cyberpunk scrolling past pages of kana! If only I could make them show up green on a black background.... Anville 11:25, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I know it is only suppossed to be a summary, but the film is quite complicated and I would like to really get to understand it. For one, why and who hacked Batusa? What is the relation between the hacker Kim and Locus? Why did the dolls in the end also attack the security guards? Cgonzalezdelhoyo 04:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I second that. The plot summary way to short, please expand it. -yongke, 20 Aug 2006
"After receiving numerous complaints, DreamWorks released a statement saying that unsatisfied customers could exchange their DVDs for properly subtitled ones, postage paid; and that version 4 already had the proper subtitling."
The link takes you to an error page. And I don't know what version Amazon is selling (I can't find that on the box or disc), but it still has only the closed caption option.
I see that Kenneth Colley is noted as the voice actor for Aramaki. Without checking the others, I know this to be incorrect since IMDB lists the voice actor as William Knight. See http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0292823/ . Before I edit the article I wanted to check whether there are differences in the English cast between the 2004 and 2006 releases? Coldmachine 21:50, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Michael McCarty is the English voice actor for Ishikawa, not Nicholas Smith. This is an obvious error. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Howen633 (
talk •
contribs)
17:01, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
There's an english version!? Damn! The version I bought only has japanese audio. Monksbane 5:43, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Image:Innocence Ghost In The Shell Poster.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 17:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Image:LocusSolus.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 13:23, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
The song was performed in early eighties by Demis Roussos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9YleiapnDo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.230.212.37 ( talk) 19:33, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
There are a lot of externally linked references in the text which are now broken, they should be updated or removed. Akriasas ( talk) 23:40, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
The Story section needs a major overhaul. It’s written from the POV of someone who’s already watched the whole movie and describes how things happened in ways that the characters and viewer don’t know at the time. I realize Wikipedia probably doesn’t have any policy against spoilers, but describing the plot in this way totally undersells the criminal / film noir elements of the movie. — NRen2k5( TALK), 18:06, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
The Literary References addition was removed because most of those are already mentioned in "Allusions and references."
"The animation features a motif of figurative deformation of scenery — especially the massive cathedral-like Locus Solus building in the Northern Territories (Kurile Islands) and the Chinese parade, which will stay as one of the most amazing scenes in recent memory. Although the style is quite realistic and detailed, it mixes in startling distortions."
I've checked the official site and I've found nothing. Also "stay as one of the most amazing scenes in recent memory" is completely POV. You cannot prove if something is amazing or not; the adjective is inherently POV.-- Lavenderx ( talk) 23:20, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
For example http://www.adobe.com/jp/motion/features/innocence/page2.html is not (yet) dead but lot of english translated pages are dead now ... day after day you just lose the spirit of Innocence ! Each man kills the things he loves... yeah I know I do... Videos from Cannes ( Highlights May 20th 2004, Steps : Innocence, Interview / Photo Call, Press conference... ) are gone ( at least for you ) like Kurile Islands mentions from the makers etc ... LEARN TO SEARCH - SEARCH TO LEARN... things like http://anime.about.com/library/weekly/bl_makingof.htm... traces, memories, interviews, making-off... "Distinguishing the virtual from the real is a major error on the part of human beings. To me, the birth and death of a human being is already a virtual event," the 52-year-old director told a news conference on 2004 Cannes Film Festival. "I think that accepting that what we are seeing is not real will open the doors of truth for mankind" he added.
The beautiful meditation of Mamoru Oshii resides however in this paradoxical requirement.
"The film is set in the future, but it's looking at present-day society. And as I said, there's an autobiographical element as well. I'm looking back at some of the things I liked as a child -- the 1950's cars and so on. Basically, I wanted to create a different world -- not a future world."
"Innocence was lost and conscience was born" ( Adam and Eve - Genesis )
Life and death come and go like marionettes dancing on a table. Once their strings are cut, they easily crumble.
Why are humans so obsessed with recreating themselves?
Let one walk alone, committing no sin, with few wishes, like an elephant in the forest.
"I'm happier if 10,000 people see the film 10 times each than if 1 million people see it once. I'm not making it for the general public, but for a core group of fans -- I hope it will make a big impression on them. If I can do that, I'm happy."
"This movie does not hold the view that the world revolves around the human race. Instead it concludes that all forms of life – humans, animals and robots – are equal. In this day and age when everything is uncertain, we should all think about what to value in life and how to coexist with others."
others related sources:
Peace ;-)
According to my readings, Harraway character would rather be a salute to Donna Harrawa than to asimov novel.
Donna Haraway is a feminist scholar who is famous for her cyborg manifesto. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donna_Haraway#.22A_Cyborg_Manifesto.22
My source :
Manifeste cyborg et autres essais : sciences, fictions, féminismes
* Auteur: Donna Jeanne Haraway * Sujets: Femme ; Féminisme ; Patriarcat ; Race * Titres liés: Collections : Essais * Éditeur: Paris : Exils * Date: 2007 * Description: 333 p. : ill. ; 2007. * Identifiant: ISBN 9782912969637 * Langue: Français
on page 21
Unfortunately the point is being made in the french edition preface. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.89.253.194 ( talk) 03:24, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
Since there are two separate English dubs - one by Manga and one by Bandai - with different actors for minor parts, I'm thinking the English Dub Cast section should be changed somehow to reflect both casts. Gatotsu911 ( talk) 23:44, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Can we please leave the soundtrack section on this page? I don't see why it should be deleted. NewYorkStyledCheesecakes! ( talk) 07:52, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
it's not deleted, it's already in the Music of Ghost in the Shell. there's no reason why we need to keep it here, it gives unnecessary weight to the article. I suspect the motive for it staying is due to the images. similar to the Tachikoma Bread Ninja ( talk) 08:08, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
I think we should move the novel here, what do u guys think??? the article doesn't even pass the general notability guideline. Bread Ninja ( talk) 19:47, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
The statement "The female dolls are based on the art of Hans Bellmer, who is the pioneer of ball-jointed dolls." is not validated by any citations. Although the influence is undeniable, the attribution of Hans Bellmer as "the pioneer of ball-jointed dolls" is blatantly untrue. Bellmer was continuing a long tradition of automatons and ball-jointed figures with his creations. If no one changes this, I would be glad to. Two sources on the topic: Brown, Steven T. 2010. "Machinic Desires: Hans Bellmer's Dolls and the Technological Uncanny in Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence". Mechademia. 3, no. 1: 222-253. http://anime.about.com/library/weekly/bl_inspiration.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by MNicolou ( talk • contribs) 00:13, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Yup. Another list.
Just 3. Lucia Black ( talk) 05:22, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I found these quotes (Mamoru Oshii is know to be concern by religious implications since his earlier age)
"Innocence is life untested, but virtue is innocence tested and triumphant" in WH Griffith Thomas, Hebrews: A Devotional Commentary, found at [1]
He learned obedience in the sense that He learned to obey His father's will as a human. For Jesus, God's will involved suffering (cf. Phil. 2:6-8). "Innocence is life untested, but virtue is innocence tested and triumphant." note 153
"Innocence was lost and conscience was born"
Another quote related to Adam and Eve in W. H. Griffith Thomas, The Book of Genesis.
"And banished from man's life his happiest life,Simplicity and spotless innocence!" Paradise Lost, by John Milton
The movie is so full of quotes i mean it is really a part of Oshii work... -- Neuromancien 09:26, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Removed this link while editing. I can't read japanese, can anyone tell me if it's useful? http://www8.ocn.ne.jp/~medaka/diary-innocence.html . Kim Bruning 07:26, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
Often, the title seems to be given as "Ghost In The Shell: Innocence", "Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence" or even just "Innocence" - in fact, "Innocence: Ghost in the Shell" seems to be the least-used form of title. IMDB entry, for example. I know this is being a bit picky, but it would be good if we could figure out which is the best title to put the article under.
In any case, I've set up several redirects in the meantime, since someone could use any of the names - plus a disambiguation page for "Ghost in the Shell 2", which a lot of people seem to call it. (No disambiguation for "Innocence", though.) I'm not 100% sure these are entirely neccesary, but they should all help people find this entry more easily. - makomk 13:13, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The correct name would be Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence, would it not? That's how movie titles work ... main title number: subtitle. I think the whole "Innocence: Ghost in the Shell 2" thing is just a mistranslation that, for whatever reason, is still around. -- Cyde Weys talk contribs 12:28, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
The official title of the movie IS Innocence:Ghost in the Shell. This is the title on original press materials, and the title the film was entered into the Cannes Film Festival under. The confusion about the title started when Dreamworks decided to rename the movie Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence for its release in the USA. The title should be changed back to Innocence: Ghost in the Shell for the Wikipedia page, as that is the film's original English title.
I changed what the article said about the movie literally quoting Isaac Asimov's Third Law of Robotics. I don't know Japanese nearly well enough to tell how close the translation was, but the subtitles on my copy say that "Moral Code #3" is "Maintain existence without harming humans." Allowing for variations in translation, English to Japanese and back again, this still sounds like it leaves out a chunk of the Law, i.e., obeying the orders of human beings. It's a clear reference, all right, but not a literal quotation.
Babelfish humor:
The Japanese Wikipedia article on the Three Laws translates the Third Law as "ロボットは、前掲第一条および第二条に反するおそれのないかぎり、自己をまもらなければならない。". (They provide the original English phrasing too.) Running this back through Babelfish produces "If as for the robot, the aforementioned Ichijo or there is no possibility of opposing to second provision, oneself must be protected."
And gosh, don't I feel cyberpunk scrolling past pages of kana! If only I could make them show up green on a black background.... Anville 11:25, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I know it is only suppossed to be a summary, but the film is quite complicated and I would like to really get to understand it. For one, why and who hacked Batusa? What is the relation between the hacker Kim and Locus? Why did the dolls in the end also attack the security guards? Cgonzalezdelhoyo 04:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I second that. The plot summary way to short, please expand it. -yongke, 20 Aug 2006
"After receiving numerous complaints, DreamWorks released a statement saying that unsatisfied customers could exchange their DVDs for properly subtitled ones, postage paid; and that version 4 already had the proper subtitling."
The link takes you to an error page. And I don't know what version Amazon is selling (I can't find that on the box or disc), but it still has only the closed caption option.
I see that Kenneth Colley is noted as the voice actor for Aramaki. Without checking the others, I know this to be incorrect since IMDB lists the voice actor as William Knight. See http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0292823/ . Before I edit the article I wanted to check whether there are differences in the English cast between the 2004 and 2006 releases? Coldmachine 21:50, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Michael McCarty is the English voice actor for Ishikawa, not Nicholas Smith. This is an obvious error. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Howen633 (
talk •
contribs)
17:01, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
There's an english version!? Damn! The version I bought only has japanese audio. Monksbane 5:43, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Image:Innocence Ghost In The Shell Poster.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 17:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Image:LocusSolus.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 13:23, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
The song was performed in early eighties by Demis Roussos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9YleiapnDo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.230.212.37 ( talk) 19:33, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
There are a lot of externally linked references in the text which are now broken, they should be updated or removed. Akriasas ( talk) 23:40, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
The Story section needs a major overhaul. It’s written from the POV of someone who’s already watched the whole movie and describes how things happened in ways that the characters and viewer don’t know at the time. I realize Wikipedia probably doesn’t have any policy against spoilers, but describing the plot in this way totally undersells the criminal / film noir elements of the movie. — NRen2k5( TALK), 18:06, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
The Literary References addition was removed because most of those are already mentioned in "Allusions and references."
"The animation features a motif of figurative deformation of scenery — especially the massive cathedral-like Locus Solus building in the Northern Territories (Kurile Islands) and the Chinese parade, which will stay as one of the most amazing scenes in recent memory. Although the style is quite realistic and detailed, it mixes in startling distortions."
I've checked the official site and I've found nothing. Also "stay as one of the most amazing scenes in recent memory" is completely POV. You cannot prove if something is amazing or not; the adjective is inherently POV.-- Lavenderx ( talk) 23:20, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
For example http://www.adobe.com/jp/motion/features/innocence/page2.html is not (yet) dead but lot of english translated pages are dead now ... day after day you just lose the spirit of Innocence ! Each man kills the things he loves... yeah I know I do... Videos from Cannes ( Highlights May 20th 2004, Steps : Innocence, Interview / Photo Call, Press conference... ) are gone ( at least for you ) like Kurile Islands mentions from the makers etc ... LEARN TO SEARCH - SEARCH TO LEARN... things like http://anime.about.com/library/weekly/bl_makingof.htm... traces, memories, interviews, making-off... "Distinguishing the virtual from the real is a major error on the part of human beings. To me, the birth and death of a human being is already a virtual event," the 52-year-old director told a news conference on 2004 Cannes Film Festival. "I think that accepting that what we are seeing is not real will open the doors of truth for mankind" he added.
The beautiful meditation of Mamoru Oshii resides however in this paradoxical requirement.
"The film is set in the future, but it's looking at present-day society. And as I said, there's an autobiographical element as well. I'm looking back at some of the things I liked as a child -- the 1950's cars and so on. Basically, I wanted to create a different world -- not a future world."
"Innocence was lost and conscience was born" ( Adam and Eve - Genesis )
Life and death come and go like marionettes dancing on a table. Once their strings are cut, they easily crumble.
Why are humans so obsessed with recreating themselves?
Let one walk alone, committing no sin, with few wishes, like an elephant in the forest.
"I'm happier if 10,000 people see the film 10 times each than if 1 million people see it once. I'm not making it for the general public, but for a core group of fans -- I hope it will make a big impression on them. If I can do that, I'm happy."
"This movie does not hold the view that the world revolves around the human race. Instead it concludes that all forms of life – humans, animals and robots – are equal. In this day and age when everything is uncertain, we should all think about what to value in life and how to coexist with others."
others related sources:
Peace ;-)
According to my readings, Harraway character would rather be a salute to Donna Harrawa than to asimov novel.
Donna Haraway is a feminist scholar who is famous for her cyborg manifesto. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donna_Haraway#.22A_Cyborg_Manifesto.22
My source :
Manifeste cyborg et autres essais : sciences, fictions, féminismes
* Auteur: Donna Jeanne Haraway * Sujets: Femme ; Féminisme ; Patriarcat ; Race * Titres liés: Collections : Essais * Éditeur: Paris : Exils * Date: 2007 * Description: 333 p. : ill. ; 2007. * Identifiant: ISBN 9782912969637 * Langue: Français
on page 21
Unfortunately the point is being made in the french edition preface. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.89.253.194 ( talk) 03:24, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
Since there are two separate English dubs - one by Manga and one by Bandai - with different actors for minor parts, I'm thinking the English Dub Cast section should be changed somehow to reflect both casts. Gatotsu911 ( talk) 23:44, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Can we please leave the soundtrack section on this page? I don't see why it should be deleted. NewYorkStyledCheesecakes! ( talk) 07:52, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
it's not deleted, it's already in the Music of Ghost in the Shell. there's no reason why we need to keep it here, it gives unnecessary weight to the article. I suspect the motive for it staying is due to the images. similar to the Tachikoma Bread Ninja ( talk) 08:08, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
I think we should move the novel here, what do u guys think??? the article doesn't even pass the general notability guideline. Bread Ninja ( talk) 19:47, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
The statement "The female dolls are based on the art of Hans Bellmer, who is the pioneer of ball-jointed dolls." is not validated by any citations. Although the influence is undeniable, the attribution of Hans Bellmer as "the pioneer of ball-jointed dolls" is blatantly untrue. Bellmer was continuing a long tradition of automatons and ball-jointed figures with his creations. If no one changes this, I would be glad to. Two sources on the topic: Brown, Steven T. 2010. "Machinic Desires: Hans Bellmer's Dolls and the Technological Uncanny in Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence". Mechademia. 3, no. 1: 222-253. http://anime.about.com/library/weekly/bl_inspiration.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by MNicolou ( talk • contribs) 00:13, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Yup. Another list.
Just 3. Lucia Black ( talk) 05:22, 3 November 2012 (UTC)