![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Result is not to merge. Frankly, this seems to be a fairly heated topic, but overall, the feeling seems to be that this is about more than the manga side of things. All I can urge everyone to do is to move on and help the encyclopedia, and please do not restart this pointless debate going back and forth for a long time to come; Article names are not the most important things in the short, long or in fact any term. -- Mdann 52 talk to me! 14:55, 14 January 2014 (UTC) ( non-admin closure) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
As I believe the mediation has overstepped its bounds and therefore negated its utility, I will instead raise this issue to the general editing public. It is very obvious that Ghost in the Shell the manga is notable. As are the films, the Stand Alone Complex television series, and the Arise films/OVAs. However, this does not confer notability onto the concept of a "franchise" that encompasses all of the topics. The content of this page ( Ghost in the Shell) can easily be incorporated as a "media" section onto a page that says "Ghost in the Shell is a manga by Masamune Shirow", which in my opinion should be a page titled "Ghost in the Shell" and not one titled "Ghost in the Shell (manga)". The manga clearly passes the requirements of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC as it is the originator of all of the subseuqent related media, so therefore turning this into a disambiguation page (as Ghost in the Shell (disambiguation) exists as) is not necessary. It most definitely holds the long term status as the item which is known as "Ghost in the Shell" around the world rather than any regional popularity of its offspring. As far as I can tell, en.wp is the only project that has this divide (although ja.wp has separate stub pages for 2.0 and 1.5), but that may be because someone may have not linked the "(manga)" page to any other projects. — Ryulong ( 琉竜) 08:58, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
@ DragonZero:: I'm merely pointing out that the most recognized (popular) version is not reason enough to consider making an "index/franchise" like article, and the fact that you mention that proves my point further to use Stand Alone Complex/film series being more popular null and void as they are substantially different from the original (on more or less than the other). And i also disagree with making a disambiguation page. The point is that all spin offs or adaptations are directly linked to the manga. Giving the manga even more lasting status. This series is not like Gundam. There's no proof that Ghost in the Shell (as a whole) is a metaseries. After all, all of the series revolves around the original manga (film = direct/loose adaptation. TV series = Alternate telling but still sharing most of the elements of the original. OVA series = Prequel) not originally (or proven to ever be) owned by Production I.G. If you read my first comment, you can better understand what Ghost in the Shell as a whole is and why keeping the manga as primary topic would benefit it well. I may be repeating myself, but like i said, all these are directly connected to the manga. So all this information such as a film/stand alone complex/arise series is just as relevant in the manga article just as it is if it was a franchise. Making it unnecessary for both disambiguation/franchise article. It's not like each new series is another "entry" in the overall series. After all, each one is done individually yet connected to the original manga. The perfect examples are Fullmetal Alchemist, Rozen Maiden, Blood: The Last Vampire (two of which are GAs). Lucia Black ( talk) 17:21, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
Section break
You gave ryulong permission to merge, i asked ryulong if he would allow me to do it for him, in which he agreed. And i'm sure you have his talkpage in watchlist to know that i indeed asked. But since you gave permission to ryulong to merge it, which meant you were content with the merge (at least at the time). So right now (literally 3 posts before) you're alerting the editors of me "acting on my own" when this was something you're directly involved. It is not a "baseless accusation". I understand the current situation wont allow it but considering you're vote at the time was to allow it, that was 4/3. But this is not leaning toward disamb and it wont be anytime soon. And at the moment, the GAN related to franchise/film can't begin until after everything has been decided. So it can't be promoted to GA, if there's still issues that are being discussed, such as whether it should be merged. If so, then the article will fail for not meeting toward stability. Something that almost costed the GA status for Kingdom Hearts 358/2 days. Lucia Black ( talk) 02:10, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
THats just the facts Chris. You can't game the system by attempting to GA something to oversee a discussion. And i'm not enforcing anything. this is whats what. Lucia Black ( talk) 02:32, 11 November 2013 (UTC) And i'm not trying to fail any GA. this isn't about the film, this is mainly about the manga/franchise. Lucia Black ( talk) 02:34, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
ChrisGualtieri this was a terrible fucking idea. There was no consensus to do this. This is in no way what any of the parties wanted. And now you've just made everything more difficult for everyone else. I am sick and tired of this. You asked me not to do a new merge discussion while the RFC was going at Bleach (anime) and you go ahead and do this shit instead? This is bullshit.— Ryulong ( 琉竜) 08:54, 11 November 2013 (UTC) And you know hat Dream Focus, ChrisGualtieri explicitly said this should happen before the onset of the RFC. So it's just him renegging because I never went ahead with it due to real life commitments.— Ryulong ( 琉竜) 09:09, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Single Disamb to overtake franchise pageShould the Ghost in the Shell page redirect to Ghost in the Shell (disambiguation) under the reading from WP:DISAMB? ChrisGualtieri ( talk) 00:30, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
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The movie extensively treats themes of consciousness, and how it relates to the convergence of man and machine. I believe it should be in the summary, because it is what sets Ghost in The Shell apart from conventional action anime. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.112.134.61 ( talk) 20:31, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
I can't believe that when I leave this article it just goes the way ChrisGualtieri wants it, having extensive discussions on content peripheral to the subject at hand in the "media" section. Information on the Stand Alone Complex material should be on the Stand Alone Complex article, rather than peppered through this one. There is no need to have such extensive detail on the video games or the novels here. I've removed this content, again.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜) 16:04, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
{{
lang|ja}}
.If the article will continue to exist, i believe that it should be organized appropriately by each individual series. Having a "video game" section for only one video game is not necessary as its based off the manga's continuity (intentionally separate from that of the film's). the rest are series of their own. Mamoru Oshii's Films, Kenji Kamiyama's Stand Alone Complex, and the recent Kise's Arise series. Lucia Black ( talk) 20:26, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Here Ryūlóng can explain why he thinks it's not clear the game has nothing to do with the film whatsoever -- SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 11:36, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Can you two please have a civil conversation over this. SNAAAAKE!! you wish to make changes, under BRD you've made changes, they were reverted now it's time to discuss. Please discuss civilly what you wish to change and your reasoning behind it. Canterbury Tail talk 13:46, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
The reason is that the developers of the video game itself confirm it falls in the continuity of the manga over the film. Understand that the films, Stand Alone Complex series, and Arise series are re-imagines of the original media, however the video game does exactly what the other video games have been doing for their respected series, serving as gaidens to fit within a specific continuity. Especially since the game came out after the original film. The term "spin-off" is wide, but lets see it in terms of "complimentary media" and "separate entity". the video game is meant to compliment the manga, but the films, Stand Alone Complex series, and Arise series are not designed to compliment the original manga, they are designed to being separate entities of their own (which is why we need the original manga as the main page, to further show this relationship between specific media)
The only way it should be treated equally to the rest of the series is if it reaches the same level of the others, such as becoming an alternate plot that no longer fits the original manga and receiving adaptations/spin-offs of its own. But again, the game is designed the same way the Stand Alone Complex games are designed for the Stand Alone Complex series. It is designed to fit into that continuity, and because the video game was released "after" the film, the video game intentionally treats itself as part of the manga over the film. Lucia Black ( talk) 18:06, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Which contain side media of their own, and common sense dictates organizing the article by series because multiple subseries have more than one media in common. the fact that you added a mention of Stand Alone Complex video games just to make that section more relevant just destroys the purpose of your previous argument. I find it rather advantagous. its all or nothing, like i said. either we include all the media unilaterally, or we divide it by series even if it means the original video game doesn't get a section of its own. sacrifice one or the other. Lucia Black ( talk) 00:09, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Result is not to merge. Frankly, this seems to be a fairly heated topic, but overall, the feeling seems to be that this is about more than the manga side of things. All I can urge everyone to do is to move on and help the encyclopedia, and please do not restart this pointless debate going back and forth for a long time to come; Article names are not the most important things in the short, long or in fact any term. -- Mdann 52 talk to me! 14:55, 14 January 2014 (UTC) ( non-admin closure) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
As I believe the mediation has overstepped its bounds and therefore negated its utility, I will instead raise this issue to the general editing public. It is very obvious that Ghost in the Shell the manga is notable. As are the films, the Stand Alone Complex television series, and the Arise films/OVAs. However, this does not confer notability onto the concept of a "franchise" that encompasses all of the topics. The content of this page ( Ghost in the Shell) can easily be incorporated as a "media" section onto a page that says "Ghost in the Shell is a manga by Masamune Shirow", which in my opinion should be a page titled "Ghost in the Shell" and not one titled "Ghost in the Shell (manga)". The manga clearly passes the requirements of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC as it is the originator of all of the subseuqent related media, so therefore turning this into a disambiguation page (as Ghost in the Shell (disambiguation) exists as) is not necessary. It most definitely holds the long term status as the item which is known as "Ghost in the Shell" around the world rather than any regional popularity of its offspring. As far as I can tell, en.wp is the only project that has this divide (although ja.wp has separate stub pages for 2.0 and 1.5), but that may be because someone may have not linked the "(manga)" page to any other projects. — Ryulong ( 琉竜) 08:58, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
@ DragonZero:: I'm merely pointing out that the most recognized (popular) version is not reason enough to consider making an "index/franchise" like article, and the fact that you mention that proves my point further to use Stand Alone Complex/film series being more popular null and void as they are substantially different from the original (on more or less than the other). And i also disagree with making a disambiguation page. The point is that all spin offs or adaptations are directly linked to the manga. Giving the manga even more lasting status. This series is not like Gundam. There's no proof that Ghost in the Shell (as a whole) is a metaseries. After all, all of the series revolves around the original manga (film = direct/loose adaptation. TV series = Alternate telling but still sharing most of the elements of the original. OVA series = Prequel) not originally (or proven to ever be) owned by Production I.G. If you read my first comment, you can better understand what Ghost in the Shell as a whole is and why keeping the manga as primary topic would benefit it well. I may be repeating myself, but like i said, all these are directly connected to the manga. So all this information such as a film/stand alone complex/arise series is just as relevant in the manga article just as it is if it was a franchise. Making it unnecessary for both disambiguation/franchise article. It's not like each new series is another "entry" in the overall series. After all, each one is done individually yet connected to the original manga. The perfect examples are Fullmetal Alchemist, Rozen Maiden, Blood: The Last Vampire (two of which are GAs). Lucia Black ( talk) 17:21, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
Section break
You gave ryulong permission to merge, i asked ryulong if he would allow me to do it for him, in which he agreed. And i'm sure you have his talkpage in watchlist to know that i indeed asked. But since you gave permission to ryulong to merge it, which meant you were content with the merge (at least at the time). So right now (literally 3 posts before) you're alerting the editors of me "acting on my own" when this was something you're directly involved. It is not a "baseless accusation". I understand the current situation wont allow it but considering you're vote at the time was to allow it, that was 4/3. But this is not leaning toward disamb and it wont be anytime soon. And at the moment, the GAN related to franchise/film can't begin until after everything has been decided. So it can't be promoted to GA, if there's still issues that are being discussed, such as whether it should be merged. If so, then the article will fail for not meeting toward stability. Something that almost costed the GA status for Kingdom Hearts 358/2 days. Lucia Black ( talk) 02:10, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
THats just the facts Chris. You can't game the system by attempting to GA something to oversee a discussion. And i'm not enforcing anything. this is whats what. Lucia Black ( talk) 02:32, 11 November 2013 (UTC) And i'm not trying to fail any GA. this isn't about the film, this is mainly about the manga/franchise. Lucia Black ( talk) 02:34, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
ChrisGualtieri this was a terrible fucking idea. There was no consensus to do this. This is in no way what any of the parties wanted. And now you've just made everything more difficult for everyone else. I am sick and tired of this. You asked me not to do a new merge discussion while the RFC was going at Bleach (anime) and you go ahead and do this shit instead? This is bullshit.— Ryulong ( 琉竜) 08:54, 11 November 2013 (UTC) And you know hat Dream Focus, ChrisGualtieri explicitly said this should happen before the onset of the RFC. So it's just him renegging because I never went ahead with it due to real life commitments.— Ryulong ( 琉竜) 09:09, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Single Disamb to overtake franchise pageShould the Ghost in the Shell page redirect to Ghost in the Shell (disambiguation) under the reading from WP:DISAMB? ChrisGualtieri ( talk) 00:30, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
|
The movie extensively treats themes of consciousness, and how it relates to the convergence of man and machine. I believe it should be in the summary, because it is what sets Ghost in The Shell apart from conventional action anime. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.112.134.61 ( talk) 20:31, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
I can't believe that when I leave this article it just goes the way ChrisGualtieri wants it, having extensive discussions on content peripheral to the subject at hand in the "media" section. Information on the Stand Alone Complex material should be on the Stand Alone Complex article, rather than peppered through this one. There is no need to have such extensive detail on the video games or the novels here. I've removed this content, again.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜) 16:04, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
{{
lang|ja}}
.If the article will continue to exist, i believe that it should be organized appropriately by each individual series. Having a "video game" section for only one video game is not necessary as its based off the manga's continuity (intentionally separate from that of the film's). the rest are series of their own. Mamoru Oshii's Films, Kenji Kamiyama's Stand Alone Complex, and the recent Kise's Arise series. Lucia Black ( talk) 20:26, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Here Ryūlóng can explain why he thinks it's not clear the game has nothing to do with the film whatsoever -- SNAAAAKE!! ( talk) 11:36, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Can you two please have a civil conversation over this. SNAAAAKE!! you wish to make changes, under BRD you've made changes, they were reverted now it's time to discuss. Please discuss civilly what you wish to change and your reasoning behind it. Canterbury Tail talk 13:46, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
The reason is that the developers of the video game itself confirm it falls in the continuity of the manga over the film. Understand that the films, Stand Alone Complex series, and Arise series are re-imagines of the original media, however the video game does exactly what the other video games have been doing for their respected series, serving as gaidens to fit within a specific continuity. Especially since the game came out after the original film. The term "spin-off" is wide, but lets see it in terms of "complimentary media" and "separate entity". the video game is meant to compliment the manga, but the films, Stand Alone Complex series, and Arise series are not designed to compliment the original manga, they are designed to being separate entities of their own (which is why we need the original manga as the main page, to further show this relationship between specific media)
The only way it should be treated equally to the rest of the series is if it reaches the same level of the others, such as becoming an alternate plot that no longer fits the original manga and receiving adaptations/spin-offs of its own. But again, the game is designed the same way the Stand Alone Complex games are designed for the Stand Alone Complex series. It is designed to fit into that continuity, and because the video game was released "after" the film, the video game intentionally treats itself as part of the manga over the film. Lucia Black ( talk) 18:06, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Which contain side media of their own, and common sense dictates organizing the article by series because multiple subseries have more than one media in common. the fact that you added a mention of Stand Alone Complex video games just to make that section more relevant just destroys the purpose of your previous argument. I find it rather advantagous. its all or nothing, like i said. either we include all the media unilaterally, or we divide it by series even if it means the original video game doesn't get a section of its own. sacrifice one or the other. Lucia Black ( talk) 00:09, 4 July 2014 (UTC)