![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Since the altarpiece figures so prominently in the movie Monuments_Men_(film), I suggest that a section on Ghent Altarpiece in Literature and Film would show its influence on modern times. 71.230.201.203 ( talk) 16:34, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
Where is it exactly now? Maybe that is important to be in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.57.23.82 ( talk) 01:36, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
The Adoration of the Lamb is full of symbolism. Yet the most significant key to its interpretation - one that curiously seems to have eluded the art historians - is that the central section is arranged in the form of the Kabbalistic Tree of Life.
The Tree of Life comprises three pillars and ten sephiroth. At the top of the central pillar, the pillar of Consciousness, is Kether, the Crown. This represents the Godhead through which God's will is manifest in the world. Below Kether is Da'at or Knowledge, symbolised in the painting by the Holy Spirit. At the center is Tipheret or Beauty, represented by the Lamb itself - the heart of God in the world. Next comes Yesod or Foundation, identified here by the fountain. Lastly comes Malkuth, the Kingdom. This is the world in which you and I, the observers, live. As the Kabbalistic saying goes, "Kether is in Malkuth and Malkuth is in Kether".
To the right we have the masculine pillar, the pillar of Force. At the top is Hochmah or Wisdom. Below is Chesed or Mercy represented by the women carrying palms. Below that is Netzach or Victory, which conveys cyclical repetition, represented by the popes and bishops.
To the left we have the female pillar, the pillar of Form. At the top is Binah or Understanding. Below is Gevurah or Judgement, which can be interpreted as the enforcement of tradition on a day to day basis, and represented here by the clergy. Below that is Hod or Splendor, often associated with learning and represented by the Jewish scholars.
Clearly, the artists, Hubert and Jan van Eyck, were strongly influenced by Christian Kabbalah. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gbs ( talk • contribs)
Not I think so known in English (only the thing in the male throat is so called, nowadays anyway). Do you know the botantic/English name for the species? Johnbod 20:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
The text says "The painting was stored in a museum in Pau for the duration of the war" but this is contradicted later when we learn it was moved to Germany on Hitler's orders. 89.100.251.145 ( talk) 17:15, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
Sunday Times, Perth 28.2.1943, p. 2)
Loot for Goering
New York. "La Libre" underground Belgian newspaper, confirms that Goering has snaffled van Eyck's painting of the "Adoration of the Lamb", one of the world's greatest art treasures.
The "Adoration" was some weeks ago reported to have been presented to Goering by the French Government, which had the painting in its safekeeping since the Nazi onslaught against Belgium.
This rumor was received with scepticism, but investigation has proved it true.
Goering's loot belongs to Ghent Cathedral. Central panels, which came into the possession of the King of Prussia, were restored to the Cathedral under the Versailles Treaty of 1919. "Adam and Eve" panels, which were removed in 1781, because Emperor Joseph II. thought them "too liberal for a cathedral", were restored at the same time.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/59175968 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.145.231.231 ( talk) 08:10, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Some of the images, in particular the central figures, have a foggy quality on my computer monitor although others reproduce O.K. Can anybody improve the images? Xxanthippe ( talk) 11:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC).
Re this edit by TK [4]. Agree with this, find the current organisation, with so many sections unwieldy, I'd at least merge the outer panel bits, I think long blocks of text without 20 fourth level headers is fine. There was a similar problem with The Garden of Earthly Delights, I think the solution worked out there would do here. Might comment out some of the images for now as we work through, they can be restored later when there is enough text to accomidate. Maybe a third level heading for each register (ie 2 and 3). Ceoil ( talk) 22:47, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
If the answer to this question shall be based on fact, we have to look for evidence in the painting itself. This applies both to the two panels showing the groups of musicians and to the whole altarpiece.
Concerning the whole altarpiece, there are 14 angels in the central panel of the lower register. They are shown in a central position circling around the lamb. All of them have wings and they are wearing simple white gowns.
The two groups of musicians in the upper register, however, have no wings and are wearing extremely expensive gowns that are typical for queens and kings, and - without jewels - for priests and bishops during church service on special days.
The music stand of the left group is typical for church singers of those days. This and the singers' gowns indicate a setting that is typical for a church performance. The only difference is that the gowns are more expensive than they could be in real life.
We should also bear in mind that Jan van Eyck was a Renaissance artist and as such aimed at copying nature as realistic as possible. The demeanor of the singers' faces clearly is human-like. It is not idealized, as one would expect for images of angels.
I will therefore re-edit the article accordingly and would kindly ask that the edits be not reverted again until valid evidence for such a measure is presented. Agric ( talk) 11:41, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, Ceoil, for the hard work. In particular I like the two new images, where one can now see the faces in detail. On the angel question, however, I am afraid we are not yet done at all. You reported two arguments for the angel opinion from the literature. First, there is a tradition to show holy persons accompanied by angels. Second, the musicians have angel-like faces. Sorry, did you find this convincing? The first argument only points out the possibility that the painter intended to show angels, not more. The second argument is circular, of course. Also it is impossible to define what an angel-like face is. There are many beautiful female faces in 15-century art. Not all of them show angels or prostitutes. See this one: http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/hans-memling/tommaso-portinari-and-his-wife There still remain two serious counterarguments. First, all other angels in the altarpiece have wings and strikingly different clothes. Second, clothes, the music stand, and the floor are all typical for a setting in a church. Suggestion, if we cannot settle this issue, should we not present both views, as views, in the article? Agric ( talk) 16:29, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
The top is the Kingdom of Heaven and the bottom is the earthly sacrifice. Hence the father of Jesus wearing a crown and Jesus on earth bringing pilgrimage. Angels don't fly in heaven they fly on earth. I guess the bible isn't a cite-able resource though, or is it? I'm new to editing. MookJong ( talk) 09:27, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
Ceoil, you wrote at the beginning of the musicians section: “The two "musical angels" wings are positioned within the overall framework of the altarpiece as attendants to the King of Kings, that is, to God the father as presented in the center-most panel of the upper register. This is a turn on a motif popular in the hagiography of the early 15th century.” Surely, panels 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, and 7 of the inner upper register are all oriented towards the center-most panel No 4. This can be seen from the orientation of the heads in all of the six flanking panels. But does this mean that all persons in these six panels are positioned as attendants to God? Adam and Eve would be very indirect attendants then. Perhaps we should also consider the differences in localities. While the three center-most panels may show one locality, the four wing panels show different ones. So, clearly, the musicians and God are not in the same room. Would it then seem correct to say that the musicians images are in the artistic tradition of angels attending God? What do you think? Agric ( talk) 16:49, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
Here I present two sources from the music and art historical literature that emphasize the naturalistic human-like depiction of the musicians and the naturalistic depiction of the setting as that of a church ceremony. 1) Reinhold Hammerstein, Die Musik der Engel, Berne 1962, pp 249-51. 2) Studies in the Performance of Late Medieval Music, edited by Stanley Boorman, Cambridge University Press 1983, p 30.
The view that the musicians are meant to represent angels is widespread in the art historical literature of the past 100 years. However, arguments for this view are missing. In fact, we are confronted with a typical Flat Earth syndrome. All believe it, because all believe it. It is clear that according to the rules of Wikipedia such a belief needs to be reported. But it needs to be called a belief, not a fact. Would it be alright, if we added the two references above and pointed out that Jan van Eyck was a Renaissance artist and as such strongly oriented toward depicting humans and things as naturalistic as possible? Agric ( talk) 17:22, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
As the attached contemporary painting of St Catherine by Rogier van der Weyden shows, the faces and the hair style of the female musician precisely mirror the common image of beautiful women of those days. They do not mirror the image of angels, prostitutes, or anything sexless. Please bear in mind that in the Cathoic Church saints are no angels. They are historic persons that were made saints by the Pope of Rome due to alleged heroic deeds for their religion. We can be sure that van Eyck painted young female musicians in about the same shape and behavior as they were common at the court of Philip the Good, where Jan van Eyck had his main professional position when he was working on the altar piece. It is known that in choirs outside of the church female singers had equal importance and fame as male singers. The fact that van Eyck presented a secular female choir in church clothing surely must have had a reason. Perhaps it should be taken up in the context of the views of Tilman Seebass, as refrenced above. Agric ( talk) 20:23, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Here is a source on the role of female musicians during the days of Philip the Good and Jan van Eyck:
Edwards, J. Michele. "Women in Music to ca. 1450." In Women and Music: A History. Ed. Karin Pendle. Bloomington and Indianapolis: Indiana Univ. Press, 1991, pp. 8-28. Agric ( talk) 13:19, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
Angels can be depicted as sexless, but in the case of the musicians in the Ghent altarpiece van Eyck vehemently rejected this option. Skilled artists such as van Eyck have a full command of all the facial and behavioral attributes of a person that denote the sex of the person. Because of this skill and knowledge it is easy for them to paint a sex-ambiguous person. For example, look at the detail of Caravaggio’s painting on the left. This angel can be regarded with equal probability as male or female.
The musicians of van Eyck, however, are depicted as female as can be. Anatomy of the faces, inclination of the heads, and way of looking are archetypically female and – taken together – definitely exclude any possibility that the musicians could be sex-ambiguous or sexless. The strong emphasis with which van Eyck opts in favor of naturalistic female attributes should perhaps also be taken as an indication of the artist’s intentions. Agric ( talk) 16:23, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
I've tidied the article up as best as I can without access to the sources. Anyone who does might want to check whether I've taken too many liberties. I've tried to regularise the use of "inner" and "outer" and "interior" and "exterior" as much as possible. "Wings" should, surely, only be used for the folding parts, not for individual panels.
I've no idea what a "timer swivel" is. Timber?
A couple of remainig problems: The article says the central figure is Christ, and then says he hasn't been identified, and then says he's God the father. Also the angels are said to have "cherub" faces, while cherubs are traditionally portrayed as having the faces of children.
About the work Altar (2014) by Kris Martin and its connection to the Ghent Altarpiece at the High Line (New York City):
Worth mentioning? -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 16:44, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Ghent Altarpiece. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{ Sourcecheck}}).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 01:59, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
The lamb stands on an altar, facing the viewer and is surrounded by 14 angels arranged in a circle,[51] some holding symbols of Christ's Passion, and two swing censers.[49] The lamb[B] has a wound on its breast from which blood gushes into a golden chalice, yet it shows no outward expression of pain, a reference to Christ's sacrifice. The angels have multicolored wings and hold instruments of Christ's passion, including the cross and the crown of thorns.
Slight repetition here. A rough stab at rewording it:
No doubt this could be further improved, but with one of the "passions" cut it does flow a bit better. -- Hillbillyholiday talk 03:19, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
Is there a translation of the 3 lines of greek above Mary, Father, and John the baptist? Including the symbols?
Why isn't the Cane and Able Sacrifice and Murder labels for the sculptures above adam and eve?
The bottom right panel labeled Pegrini, Isn't that Jesus leading in new followers? Since he's over-sized like the angels Mary and Gabriel? He's even pointing "this way". Too speculative?
I'm curious why their are so many variations of the swastika, some left facing, some right facing, some with shorter horizontal lines, some are very small? Or maybe some suggested reading regarding the possibilities?
First timer, sorry if I'm not following protocol. These questions are bugging me. MookJong ( talk) 08:59, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
The four original panels still in the hands of St Bavo's Cathedral at the outbreak of WWI were carefully hidden by Canon Van den Gheyn. Nobody apart from him and his four helpers knew where the panels were kept. This makes me think that the assertion that panels were pilfered by the Germans during the war is inaccurate and based on legend rather than fact. The panels in the Altes Museum in Berlin and acquired from Solly were the panels that were the subject (along with a work by Dirk Boudts) of the restitution mandated by the Treaty of Versailles. This explains the bitterness of the Germans, who had acquired the Van Eyck panels perfectly legitimately almost a hundred years before. Everybody got to be somewhere! ( talk) 22:46, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
While I do not have the time to edit the article, note that unlike what could be concluded from some newspaper articles, the restoration is global and not focused on one element (see recent edit by an anonymous user). Ref: https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2019/12/17/lam-gods-gerestaureerd-en-klaar-voor-terugkeer/ Regards, Voorlandt ( talk) 18:47, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
The reattribution of the Prado's Levensbron (Fountain of Life) creates a context you should examine. A clerical error made in the cataloguing of the work when it was entered into the Trinidade Collection in the secularisation of the Monasteries created a fictitious atelier of van Eyck's in 1454. That was the date it was first recorded in the Lebero de Bercel (Vellum Book, the asset register) of the Hieronimite Monastery of the Parral in Segovia, and implies "before 1454".
The general reattribution of all artworks in the 1990s, following decades of forgeries being discovered, saw a dendrochronological study of the boards it is painted on establish the tree was felled in 1420, and after ten years seasoning would have been used in the early 1430s, the time Jan van Eyck was there on a diplomatic mission to Spain. The iconic identity with the Lamb is unmistakable, and so the two must be viewed as a pair.
They fit within a wider context, too, documented in Professor Bernard Guenée's biography of Cardinal Pierre d'Ailly, the Convenor of the Council of Constance 1414-18, in his Beyond Church and State. This documents the formation of the Devotio Moderna based on Jan van Ruusbroec's consolidation of the theology of the Eucharist, in his Spiritual Tabernacle. This thinking was taken up by Gerardus Groot in the creation of the Windesheim School (the two having spent a week in instruction at the very end of Ruusbroek's life), which was then adopted as the core of Renaissance theology. Professor Guenée's work stopped on d'Ailly's death, but the political drive behind it didn't, namely the Holy Roman Empire's attempts to gather support for a Crusade against the Ottoman threat to their Black Sea holdings.
Unfortunately, the Valous and Plantagenets were at each others' throat, although d'Ailly's letter of congratulations to Henry V for removing French influence after Agincourt (Gesta Henrici Quinti) shows a wider Burgundian (ie an HRE sockpuppet) alignment not recognised in English versions of the tale. Thus it was that d'Ailly's plans had carte blanche, inverting the power structure of the Concilium, restoring Rome - and then it came unstuck for the oddest of reasons. Having fired the three schismatic Popes, he placated the traditionalists with one of their own number, Martin V, a very sickly prelate not expected to live long. He didn't reckon on the Papal nuns, the sisters who care for his physical needs. They recognised lactose intolerance, and switched him to goat's milk. His health restored, he lived an inconveniently long time. On his death, the Venetian Gabriele Condulmer was annointed Eugenius IV, and hit the ground running.
d'Ailly's retinue at Constance included two young pages, Guillaume Dufay and Jan van Eyck. Dufay became a composer, and wrote the Papal Coronation Anthem Ecclesie Militate, Church Take Arms! The call was about to go out when bad news came the other way, La Pucelle had restarted the war, nobody was interested. Eugenius made the case d'Ailly had prepared, with Dufay's L'Homme Armé folk mass alongside van Eyck's two works (Yale's Professor Craig Wright's The Maze and the Warrior goes into great depth), forming an academic case conformant to the norms of the day, the quadrivium: Ruusbroec's theology, Dufay's arithmetical music, van Eyck's geometric cosmology in it's purest form, eschatology. Till Holger Borchert agrees, and would welcome research into van Eyck's diplomatic career.
It's my personal opinion the Parral work was either a study or a copy, as it's a good fit for the altarpiece of a chapel Eugenius built in Brussels at the same time, destroyed in 1955: an exact copy had been built and is now the Chapel of the European Commission. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.68.80.209 ( talk) 01:45, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
I can't produce a picture of my own computer monitor. But without limiting the top image box via the px method? The image box takes up well over 90% of the monitor's screen shot width. This distorts the written content, as a result. GoodDay ( talk) 23:24, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Since the altarpiece figures so prominently in the movie Monuments_Men_(film), I suggest that a section on Ghent Altarpiece in Literature and Film would show its influence on modern times. 71.230.201.203 ( talk) 16:34, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
Where is it exactly now? Maybe that is important to be in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.57.23.82 ( talk) 01:36, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
The Adoration of the Lamb is full of symbolism. Yet the most significant key to its interpretation - one that curiously seems to have eluded the art historians - is that the central section is arranged in the form of the Kabbalistic Tree of Life.
The Tree of Life comprises three pillars and ten sephiroth. At the top of the central pillar, the pillar of Consciousness, is Kether, the Crown. This represents the Godhead through which God's will is manifest in the world. Below Kether is Da'at or Knowledge, symbolised in the painting by the Holy Spirit. At the center is Tipheret or Beauty, represented by the Lamb itself - the heart of God in the world. Next comes Yesod or Foundation, identified here by the fountain. Lastly comes Malkuth, the Kingdom. This is the world in which you and I, the observers, live. As the Kabbalistic saying goes, "Kether is in Malkuth and Malkuth is in Kether".
To the right we have the masculine pillar, the pillar of Force. At the top is Hochmah or Wisdom. Below is Chesed or Mercy represented by the women carrying palms. Below that is Netzach or Victory, which conveys cyclical repetition, represented by the popes and bishops.
To the left we have the female pillar, the pillar of Form. At the top is Binah or Understanding. Below is Gevurah or Judgement, which can be interpreted as the enforcement of tradition on a day to day basis, and represented here by the clergy. Below that is Hod or Splendor, often associated with learning and represented by the Jewish scholars.
Clearly, the artists, Hubert and Jan van Eyck, were strongly influenced by Christian Kabbalah. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gbs ( talk • contribs)
Not I think so known in English (only the thing in the male throat is so called, nowadays anyway). Do you know the botantic/English name for the species? Johnbod 20:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
The text says "The painting was stored in a museum in Pau for the duration of the war" but this is contradicted later when we learn it was moved to Germany on Hitler's orders. 89.100.251.145 ( talk) 17:15, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
Sunday Times, Perth 28.2.1943, p. 2)
Loot for Goering
New York. "La Libre" underground Belgian newspaper, confirms that Goering has snaffled van Eyck's painting of the "Adoration of the Lamb", one of the world's greatest art treasures.
The "Adoration" was some weeks ago reported to have been presented to Goering by the French Government, which had the painting in its safekeeping since the Nazi onslaught against Belgium.
This rumor was received with scepticism, but investigation has proved it true.
Goering's loot belongs to Ghent Cathedral. Central panels, which came into the possession of the King of Prussia, were restored to the Cathedral under the Versailles Treaty of 1919. "Adam and Eve" panels, which were removed in 1781, because Emperor Joseph II. thought them "too liberal for a cathedral", were restored at the same time.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/59175968 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.145.231.231 ( talk) 08:10, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Some of the images, in particular the central figures, have a foggy quality on my computer monitor although others reproduce O.K. Can anybody improve the images? Xxanthippe ( talk) 11:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC).
Re this edit by TK [4]. Agree with this, find the current organisation, with so many sections unwieldy, I'd at least merge the outer panel bits, I think long blocks of text without 20 fourth level headers is fine. There was a similar problem with The Garden of Earthly Delights, I think the solution worked out there would do here. Might comment out some of the images for now as we work through, they can be restored later when there is enough text to accomidate. Maybe a third level heading for each register (ie 2 and 3). Ceoil ( talk) 22:47, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
If the answer to this question shall be based on fact, we have to look for evidence in the painting itself. This applies both to the two panels showing the groups of musicians and to the whole altarpiece.
Concerning the whole altarpiece, there are 14 angels in the central panel of the lower register. They are shown in a central position circling around the lamb. All of them have wings and they are wearing simple white gowns.
The two groups of musicians in the upper register, however, have no wings and are wearing extremely expensive gowns that are typical for queens and kings, and - without jewels - for priests and bishops during church service on special days.
The music stand of the left group is typical for church singers of those days. This and the singers' gowns indicate a setting that is typical for a church performance. The only difference is that the gowns are more expensive than they could be in real life.
We should also bear in mind that Jan van Eyck was a Renaissance artist and as such aimed at copying nature as realistic as possible. The demeanor of the singers' faces clearly is human-like. It is not idealized, as one would expect for images of angels.
I will therefore re-edit the article accordingly and would kindly ask that the edits be not reverted again until valid evidence for such a measure is presented. Agric ( talk) 11:41, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, Ceoil, for the hard work. In particular I like the two new images, where one can now see the faces in detail. On the angel question, however, I am afraid we are not yet done at all. You reported two arguments for the angel opinion from the literature. First, there is a tradition to show holy persons accompanied by angels. Second, the musicians have angel-like faces. Sorry, did you find this convincing? The first argument only points out the possibility that the painter intended to show angels, not more. The second argument is circular, of course. Also it is impossible to define what an angel-like face is. There are many beautiful female faces in 15-century art. Not all of them show angels or prostitutes. See this one: http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/hans-memling/tommaso-portinari-and-his-wife There still remain two serious counterarguments. First, all other angels in the altarpiece have wings and strikingly different clothes. Second, clothes, the music stand, and the floor are all typical for a setting in a church. Suggestion, if we cannot settle this issue, should we not present both views, as views, in the article? Agric ( talk) 16:29, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
The top is the Kingdom of Heaven and the bottom is the earthly sacrifice. Hence the father of Jesus wearing a crown and Jesus on earth bringing pilgrimage. Angels don't fly in heaven they fly on earth. I guess the bible isn't a cite-able resource though, or is it? I'm new to editing. MookJong ( talk) 09:27, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
Ceoil, you wrote at the beginning of the musicians section: “The two "musical angels" wings are positioned within the overall framework of the altarpiece as attendants to the King of Kings, that is, to God the father as presented in the center-most panel of the upper register. This is a turn on a motif popular in the hagiography of the early 15th century.” Surely, panels 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, and 7 of the inner upper register are all oriented towards the center-most panel No 4. This can be seen from the orientation of the heads in all of the six flanking panels. But does this mean that all persons in these six panels are positioned as attendants to God? Adam and Eve would be very indirect attendants then. Perhaps we should also consider the differences in localities. While the three center-most panels may show one locality, the four wing panels show different ones. So, clearly, the musicians and God are not in the same room. Would it then seem correct to say that the musicians images are in the artistic tradition of angels attending God? What do you think? Agric ( talk) 16:49, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
Here I present two sources from the music and art historical literature that emphasize the naturalistic human-like depiction of the musicians and the naturalistic depiction of the setting as that of a church ceremony. 1) Reinhold Hammerstein, Die Musik der Engel, Berne 1962, pp 249-51. 2) Studies in the Performance of Late Medieval Music, edited by Stanley Boorman, Cambridge University Press 1983, p 30.
The view that the musicians are meant to represent angels is widespread in the art historical literature of the past 100 years. However, arguments for this view are missing. In fact, we are confronted with a typical Flat Earth syndrome. All believe it, because all believe it. It is clear that according to the rules of Wikipedia such a belief needs to be reported. But it needs to be called a belief, not a fact. Would it be alright, if we added the two references above and pointed out that Jan van Eyck was a Renaissance artist and as such strongly oriented toward depicting humans and things as naturalistic as possible? Agric ( talk) 17:22, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
As the attached contemporary painting of St Catherine by Rogier van der Weyden shows, the faces and the hair style of the female musician precisely mirror the common image of beautiful women of those days. They do not mirror the image of angels, prostitutes, or anything sexless. Please bear in mind that in the Cathoic Church saints are no angels. They are historic persons that were made saints by the Pope of Rome due to alleged heroic deeds for their religion. We can be sure that van Eyck painted young female musicians in about the same shape and behavior as they were common at the court of Philip the Good, where Jan van Eyck had his main professional position when he was working on the altar piece. It is known that in choirs outside of the church female singers had equal importance and fame as male singers. The fact that van Eyck presented a secular female choir in church clothing surely must have had a reason. Perhaps it should be taken up in the context of the views of Tilman Seebass, as refrenced above. Agric ( talk) 20:23, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Here is a source on the role of female musicians during the days of Philip the Good and Jan van Eyck:
Edwards, J. Michele. "Women in Music to ca. 1450." In Women and Music: A History. Ed. Karin Pendle. Bloomington and Indianapolis: Indiana Univ. Press, 1991, pp. 8-28. Agric ( talk) 13:19, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
Angels can be depicted as sexless, but in the case of the musicians in the Ghent altarpiece van Eyck vehemently rejected this option. Skilled artists such as van Eyck have a full command of all the facial and behavioral attributes of a person that denote the sex of the person. Because of this skill and knowledge it is easy for them to paint a sex-ambiguous person. For example, look at the detail of Caravaggio’s painting on the left. This angel can be regarded with equal probability as male or female.
The musicians of van Eyck, however, are depicted as female as can be. Anatomy of the faces, inclination of the heads, and way of looking are archetypically female and – taken together – definitely exclude any possibility that the musicians could be sex-ambiguous or sexless. The strong emphasis with which van Eyck opts in favor of naturalistic female attributes should perhaps also be taken as an indication of the artist’s intentions. Agric ( talk) 16:23, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
I've tidied the article up as best as I can without access to the sources. Anyone who does might want to check whether I've taken too many liberties. I've tried to regularise the use of "inner" and "outer" and "interior" and "exterior" as much as possible. "Wings" should, surely, only be used for the folding parts, not for individual panels.
I've no idea what a "timer swivel" is. Timber?
A couple of remainig problems: The article says the central figure is Christ, and then says he hasn't been identified, and then says he's God the father. Also the angels are said to have "cherub" faces, while cherubs are traditionally portrayed as having the faces of children.
About the work Altar (2014) by Kris Martin and its connection to the Ghent Altarpiece at the High Line (New York City):
Worth mentioning? -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 16:44, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Ghent Altarpiece. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{ Sourcecheck}}).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 01:59, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
The lamb stands on an altar, facing the viewer and is surrounded by 14 angels arranged in a circle,[51] some holding symbols of Christ's Passion, and two swing censers.[49] The lamb[B] has a wound on its breast from which blood gushes into a golden chalice, yet it shows no outward expression of pain, a reference to Christ's sacrifice. The angels have multicolored wings and hold instruments of Christ's passion, including the cross and the crown of thorns.
Slight repetition here. A rough stab at rewording it:
No doubt this could be further improved, but with one of the "passions" cut it does flow a bit better. -- Hillbillyholiday talk 03:19, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
Is there a translation of the 3 lines of greek above Mary, Father, and John the baptist? Including the symbols?
Why isn't the Cane and Able Sacrifice and Murder labels for the sculptures above adam and eve?
The bottom right panel labeled Pegrini, Isn't that Jesus leading in new followers? Since he's over-sized like the angels Mary and Gabriel? He's even pointing "this way". Too speculative?
I'm curious why their are so many variations of the swastika, some left facing, some right facing, some with shorter horizontal lines, some are very small? Or maybe some suggested reading regarding the possibilities?
First timer, sorry if I'm not following protocol. These questions are bugging me. MookJong ( talk) 08:59, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
The four original panels still in the hands of St Bavo's Cathedral at the outbreak of WWI were carefully hidden by Canon Van den Gheyn. Nobody apart from him and his four helpers knew where the panels were kept. This makes me think that the assertion that panels were pilfered by the Germans during the war is inaccurate and based on legend rather than fact. The panels in the Altes Museum in Berlin and acquired from Solly were the panels that were the subject (along with a work by Dirk Boudts) of the restitution mandated by the Treaty of Versailles. This explains the bitterness of the Germans, who had acquired the Van Eyck panels perfectly legitimately almost a hundred years before. Everybody got to be somewhere! ( talk) 22:46, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
While I do not have the time to edit the article, note that unlike what could be concluded from some newspaper articles, the restoration is global and not focused on one element (see recent edit by an anonymous user). Ref: https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2019/12/17/lam-gods-gerestaureerd-en-klaar-voor-terugkeer/ Regards, Voorlandt ( talk) 18:47, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
The reattribution of the Prado's Levensbron (Fountain of Life) creates a context you should examine. A clerical error made in the cataloguing of the work when it was entered into the Trinidade Collection in the secularisation of the Monasteries created a fictitious atelier of van Eyck's in 1454. That was the date it was first recorded in the Lebero de Bercel (Vellum Book, the asset register) of the Hieronimite Monastery of the Parral in Segovia, and implies "before 1454".
The general reattribution of all artworks in the 1990s, following decades of forgeries being discovered, saw a dendrochronological study of the boards it is painted on establish the tree was felled in 1420, and after ten years seasoning would have been used in the early 1430s, the time Jan van Eyck was there on a diplomatic mission to Spain. The iconic identity with the Lamb is unmistakable, and so the two must be viewed as a pair.
They fit within a wider context, too, documented in Professor Bernard Guenée's biography of Cardinal Pierre d'Ailly, the Convenor of the Council of Constance 1414-18, in his Beyond Church and State. This documents the formation of the Devotio Moderna based on Jan van Ruusbroec's consolidation of the theology of the Eucharist, in his Spiritual Tabernacle. This thinking was taken up by Gerardus Groot in the creation of the Windesheim School (the two having spent a week in instruction at the very end of Ruusbroek's life), which was then adopted as the core of Renaissance theology. Professor Guenée's work stopped on d'Ailly's death, but the political drive behind it didn't, namely the Holy Roman Empire's attempts to gather support for a Crusade against the Ottoman threat to their Black Sea holdings.
Unfortunately, the Valous and Plantagenets were at each others' throat, although d'Ailly's letter of congratulations to Henry V for removing French influence after Agincourt (Gesta Henrici Quinti) shows a wider Burgundian (ie an HRE sockpuppet) alignment not recognised in English versions of the tale. Thus it was that d'Ailly's plans had carte blanche, inverting the power structure of the Concilium, restoring Rome - and then it came unstuck for the oddest of reasons. Having fired the three schismatic Popes, he placated the traditionalists with one of their own number, Martin V, a very sickly prelate not expected to live long. He didn't reckon on the Papal nuns, the sisters who care for his physical needs. They recognised lactose intolerance, and switched him to goat's milk. His health restored, he lived an inconveniently long time. On his death, the Venetian Gabriele Condulmer was annointed Eugenius IV, and hit the ground running.
d'Ailly's retinue at Constance included two young pages, Guillaume Dufay and Jan van Eyck. Dufay became a composer, and wrote the Papal Coronation Anthem Ecclesie Militate, Church Take Arms! The call was about to go out when bad news came the other way, La Pucelle had restarted the war, nobody was interested. Eugenius made the case d'Ailly had prepared, with Dufay's L'Homme Armé folk mass alongside van Eyck's two works (Yale's Professor Craig Wright's The Maze and the Warrior goes into great depth), forming an academic case conformant to the norms of the day, the quadrivium: Ruusbroec's theology, Dufay's arithmetical music, van Eyck's geometric cosmology in it's purest form, eschatology. Till Holger Borchert agrees, and would welcome research into van Eyck's diplomatic career.
It's my personal opinion the Parral work was either a study or a copy, as it's a good fit for the altarpiece of a chapel Eugenius built in Brussels at the same time, destroyed in 1955: an exact copy had been built and is now the Chapel of the European Commission. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.68.80.209 ( talk) 01:45, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
I can't produce a picture of my own computer monitor. But without limiting the top image box via the px method? The image box takes up well over 90% of the monitor's screen shot width. This distorts the written content, as a result. GoodDay ( talk) 23:24, 11 January 2023 (UTC)