Major POV/factual cleanup needed on completely pro-Gerson article (see also Max Gerson. The page history shows that the main contributor of this material -
is Howard Straus, Gerson's grandson, biographer and promoter. Tearlach 17:01, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
The below is repeated on the discussion page of Max Gerson, but so are the critical comments, so the rebuttals need to be as well.
There are two relevant quotes that come from the literature regarding the effectiveness of the Gerson Therapy against tuberculosis:
Under the influence of the Gerson-Sauerbruch-Herrmannsdorfer diet tubercular skin lesions, namely also lupus lesions disappear and heal. This fact cannot be argued. But how does disappearance and healing happen? -- Jesionek, A., Münch. Med. Wchnschr., 76:867, 1929
[Gerson’s original] dietary therapy for cutaneous tuberculosis has been extensively tested and approved by the majority of authors (Jesionek, Jesionek and Bernhardt, Bommer, Volk, Wichmann, Jadassohn, Stuempke and Mohrmann, Brunsgaard, Scolari, Dundas-Grant, Stokes, and others. Particularly noteworthy are the investigations which Jacobson and Brill and Gawalowski carried out over a number of years on extensive material. The Russian authors treated 124 patients who were under observation for five years, while the Czechoslovak investigator followed 127 cases. Both groups showed marked improvement. – Erich Urbach, MD, FACA and Edward B. LeWinn, BS, MD, FACP, Skin Diseases, Nutrition and Metabolism, p. 530. Grune and Stratton, New York, 1946.
The information on the Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Research page regarding the extreme danger of electrolyte imbalance and even death from coffee enemas is complete nonsense. If it were not, the Gerson Clinics, which have been administering five OR MORE coffee enemas per day to their critically ill patients would be killing a majority of them, and would quickly receive a reputation for just that. There would need to be no more discussion, as the Gerson Therapy would be self-destructive. That is not the case. Thousands of extremely ill patients have passed through the Gerson Therapy clinics over the past 30 years, and none has been damaged by coffee enemas. Coffee enemas are safe and effective when properly administered in the context of the complete Gerson Therapy.
Another item of disinformation is included in the above site, perhaps due to poor research or perhaps not. Sloan-Kettering claims that several cases of campylobacter were contracted through liver injections in the 1980s. Their information is incorrect. Several cases of campylobacter occurred at a Gerson clinic, contracted from infected raw calf's liver juices given to the patients. Raw calf's liver juice was immediately discontinued when the source of the infections was identified, and no further cases of campylobacter have been experienced over the past 15 years.
The erroneous nature of the two main items of criticism from Sloan-Kettering should call the rest of their information into question.
Howard Straus —Preceding unsigned comment added by Howard Straus ( talk • contribs) 02:48, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
[Comments moved from WP:PNA] —Preceding unsigned comment added by R. S. Shaw ( talk • contribs) 02:06, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
"Gerson therapy, illegal in the US..." What, possession/use of carefully prepared fresh vegetable juices, additional vitamins, other supplements, with old fashioned enemas, etc is illegal? Do-it-yourself is illegal in the US? Don't think so. In fact, $10-15 at Amazon or a public library card for much of the US population is going to get someone started if they really want to. Ah, perhaps it is meant that if a licensed MD prescribes it, in the absence of an approved medical therapy, that doctor is going to have problems with a medical society/board/state functionary. Or perhaps that a physician would be well advised to avoid the name, "Gerson therapy" for any dietary advice in many locales. Let us at least identify and describe the item for a sentence or two before the ritual vilification begins. Disclaimer: 95+% of my lifetime exposure to vegetable juice drinks is the stuff that they serve in little cans while on airplanes; I admit to some canned tomato juice on the ground. -- 66.58.130.26 08:57, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Shame this isn't piloted on hospital wards, as individuals trying to pursue it on their own waste an enormous amount of energy, when it would be more expedient to prepare for a number of people.-- Darrelljon 21:03, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Cleaned up grammar and added links to Guardian article referenced in the section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.9.215.87 ( talk • contribs) 20:30, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Just a reminder that it's not appropriate to describe it in its article as a 'con' or a 'scam'. We are responsible for presenting material in this encyclopedia from a neutral point of view, without allowing our own biases to colour our writing. We report on the verifiable statements of reliable sources. Original research is to be avoided—instead, we need to be able to cite published sources for any statements of fact.
To illustrate, the following phrase is not appropriate:
Instead, you might write something like,
Note the use of an inline link to the outside web source, and the attribution of the statements of fact. Hope that helps. TenOfAllTrades( talk) 21:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted the following section. Firstly, it's in breach of Wikipedia:Don't include copies of primary sources to include such a long quote. Secondly, I doubt if it's up to the requirements of WP:RS: being written by a relative and proponent of Gerson, it is not from a reliable third-party published source. 82.25.238.167 10:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Excerpt from "The Gerson Therapy":
In April 1997, Celia Collins, aged fifty-eight, a prefessional puppeteer, arrived at the Gerson clinic in Sedona, Arizona (now closed), diagnosed with breast cancer. Her pathology was described in medical records she had brought with her as "an infiltrating ductal carinoma (closed margins) of the right breast 1.5 centimeters in diameter and involving three lymph nodes." The tumor was classified by the woman's oncologist as stage II cancer at grade III (most agressive) and non-estrogen-receptive. ''In April 1997, the computerized axial tomography (CAT) scan that Mrs. Collins had undergone also showed some areas that doctors declared they needed to "watch" on her liver and lung. She chose to receive a lumpectomy breast procedure, after which the attending oncologist recommended that six months of chemotherapy be carried out. But her brest surgeon did not agree. He said that in his experience such a series of toxic chemical treatments had never prolonged anyone's life and he would not suggest that she accept chemotherapy. The oncologist also wanted Mrs. Collins to take seven weeks of radiation therapy with some extra radiation "swats" for the closed margins. The brest surgeon did not express enthusiasm for radiotherapy either. "I was staggered by being confronted with the oncologist's negative choices. They just did not add up and so I began to look for some options. I selected the Gerson Therapy rather than accept the chemo and radiation," Mrs. Collins stated for publication. She was intriged with Dr. Gerson's saltless diet, for the woman had for years suspected that most of us take in too much salt by excessive seasoning. And she often experienced cellular edema (swelling) from the sodium chloride added to foods. So Mrs. Collings thought she would adapt well to the Gerson theraupeutic saltless eating program. Thus, she immediately embarked on the full menu plan of the Gerson Therapy. "The decision made, my daughter and I took off for the Gerson Healing Center in Sedona where we involved ourselves in the healing atmosphere. It was so refreshing and invigorating. Everyone was exceedingly positive, happy, and encouraging, even the cleaning lady. The care, the wonderful saltless food, the other patients and staff...were all special and good. As a result, my healing took place swiftly. I underwent another CAT scan in September 1997, after being on the Gerson Therapy for six months, and all of the scans were reported as clear of cancer - my lesions are gone. And it's official from by breast surgeon too, who additionally reported on my diagnostic tests. He said that I am free of cancer without having taken any chemotherapy or radiation," said Celia Collins.'' "I'm so happy!"
This page is unsupported nonsense, all sources quoted in the article in support of the "therapy" fall below normal scientific standards. I also see links to commercial organisation's websites. I'm new here, and liable to fall foul of the required etiquette if I were to try, but could someone with more experience remove everything without a reliable source from the page. I think you'll find that if you do, there will be no article left, only criticism. 80.168.87.20 15:32, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed this from the "Efficacy" since whoever wrote did not do enough research on the topic and decided to write his opinion about it. As I found easily a 5 year study done by the University of California, San Diego. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quicktime ( talk • contribs) 01:33, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
While anecdotal reports abound the Gerson literature, no statistical scientific studies are available at any Gerson website or in their literature. For example, the many clinics listed below reportedly receive many patients for training, but no data has been published to define how many enter, what their actual medical history is, or what their actual outcome was after treatment. There is no scientifically valid evidence for the efficacy of this treatment.
Someone needs to do soemthing about the vandal below [above]. The removed text summarises medical opinion, and is entirely backed by the external sources links. It has been replaced by text backed only by a single study by the gerson institute.I think it's pretty clear that this vandal is the unsigned author of the nonsense in the last section. I dont want to get into childish tit for tat on this, I'm going to revert it all once. I think an admin needs to step in
80.168.87.20
09:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
What is a coffee enema? How is it performed? Can you used ground coffee or do you have to use whole beans? Regular or Decafe (Copyright W.W.)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.192.10.219 ( talk • contribs) 16:44- 17:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I have cleared the references section, as these references were for the previous gerson propaganda version of the article, and are no longer applicable. 80.168.87.18 14:26- 14:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
The references have been put back in, as have the spelling mistakes and duplications of text which I removed at the same time. The person doing this claims the stuff reverted is "POV fluff". As the references are 100% uncritical Gerson Propaganda, and most of what was reverted was spelling mistakes and duplications, this seems an unsustainable argument. I'm going to take them out one more time. 80.168.87.18 19:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I have moved the following comments from the article to the discussion page, though as they are unattributed, unsupported personal opinion, and simple personal abuse it would perhaps be more valid to delete them entirely.
"The following section is corrupt and the negativity flowing from the writer proves that he/she has a slanted view. Do not believe the negative comments the writer has included, this person is obviously an unhappy individual who most probably doesn't have very many friends due to his/her agressive and insane behavior which was most probably created by the writers unhappiness with the size or shape of their genitals. We feel for you!" (Added to article 04:39, 6 October 2006 (UTC) by Special:Contributions/206.45.184.53)
They are unworthy of further comment 80.168.87.18 09:42- 09:49, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Major POV/factual cleanup needed on completely pro-Gerson article (see also Max Gerson. The page history shows that the main contributor of this material -
is Howard Straus, Gerson's grandson, biographer and promoter. Tearlach 17:01, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
The below is repeated on the discussion page of Max Gerson, but so are the critical comments, so the rebuttals need to be as well.
There are two relevant quotes that come from the literature regarding the effectiveness of the Gerson Therapy against tuberculosis:
Under the influence of the Gerson-Sauerbruch-Herrmannsdorfer diet tubercular skin lesions, namely also lupus lesions disappear and heal. This fact cannot be argued. But how does disappearance and healing happen? -- Jesionek, A., Münch. Med. Wchnschr., 76:867, 1929
[Gerson’s original] dietary therapy for cutaneous tuberculosis has been extensively tested and approved by the majority of authors (Jesionek, Jesionek and Bernhardt, Bommer, Volk, Wichmann, Jadassohn, Stuempke and Mohrmann, Brunsgaard, Scolari, Dundas-Grant, Stokes, and others. Particularly noteworthy are the investigations which Jacobson and Brill and Gawalowski carried out over a number of years on extensive material. The Russian authors treated 124 patients who were under observation for five years, while the Czechoslovak investigator followed 127 cases. Both groups showed marked improvement. – Erich Urbach, MD, FACA and Edward B. LeWinn, BS, MD, FACP, Skin Diseases, Nutrition and Metabolism, p. 530. Grune and Stratton, New York, 1946.
The information on the Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Research page regarding the extreme danger of electrolyte imbalance and even death from coffee enemas is complete nonsense. If it were not, the Gerson Clinics, which have been administering five OR MORE coffee enemas per day to their critically ill patients would be killing a majority of them, and would quickly receive a reputation for just that. There would need to be no more discussion, as the Gerson Therapy would be self-destructive. That is not the case. Thousands of extremely ill patients have passed through the Gerson Therapy clinics over the past 30 years, and none has been damaged by coffee enemas. Coffee enemas are safe and effective when properly administered in the context of the complete Gerson Therapy.
Another item of disinformation is included in the above site, perhaps due to poor research or perhaps not. Sloan-Kettering claims that several cases of campylobacter were contracted through liver injections in the 1980s. Their information is incorrect. Several cases of campylobacter occurred at a Gerson clinic, contracted from infected raw calf's liver juices given to the patients. Raw calf's liver juice was immediately discontinued when the source of the infections was identified, and no further cases of campylobacter have been experienced over the past 15 years.
The erroneous nature of the two main items of criticism from Sloan-Kettering should call the rest of their information into question.
Howard Straus —Preceding unsigned comment added by Howard Straus ( talk • contribs) 02:48, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
[Comments moved from WP:PNA] —Preceding unsigned comment added by R. S. Shaw ( talk • contribs) 02:06, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
"Gerson therapy, illegal in the US..." What, possession/use of carefully prepared fresh vegetable juices, additional vitamins, other supplements, with old fashioned enemas, etc is illegal? Do-it-yourself is illegal in the US? Don't think so. In fact, $10-15 at Amazon or a public library card for much of the US population is going to get someone started if they really want to. Ah, perhaps it is meant that if a licensed MD prescribes it, in the absence of an approved medical therapy, that doctor is going to have problems with a medical society/board/state functionary. Or perhaps that a physician would be well advised to avoid the name, "Gerson therapy" for any dietary advice in many locales. Let us at least identify and describe the item for a sentence or two before the ritual vilification begins. Disclaimer: 95+% of my lifetime exposure to vegetable juice drinks is the stuff that they serve in little cans while on airplanes; I admit to some canned tomato juice on the ground. -- 66.58.130.26 08:57, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Shame this isn't piloted on hospital wards, as individuals trying to pursue it on their own waste an enormous amount of energy, when it would be more expedient to prepare for a number of people.-- Darrelljon 21:03, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Cleaned up grammar and added links to Guardian article referenced in the section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.9.215.87 ( talk • contribs) 20:30, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Just a reminder that it's not appropriate to describe it in its article as a 'con' or a 'scam'. We are responsible for presenting material in this encyclopedia from a neutral point of view, without allowing our own biases to colour our writing. We report on the verifiable statements of reliable sources. Original research is to be avoided—instead, we need to be able to cite published sources for any statements of fact.
To illustrate, the following phrase is not appropriate:
Instead, you might write something like,
Note the use of an inline link to the outside web source, and the attribution of the statements of fact. Hope that helps. TenOfAllTrades( talk) 21:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted the following section. Firstly, it's in breach of Wikipedia:Don't include copies of primary sources to include such a long quote. Secondly, I doubt if it's up to the requirements of WP:RS: being written by a relative and proponent of Gerson, it is not from a reliable third-party published source. 82.25.238.167 10:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Excerpt from "The Gerson Therapy":
In April 1997, Celia Collins, aged fifty-eight, a prefessional puppeteer, arrived at the Gerson clinic in Sedona, Arizona (now closed), diagnosed with breast cancer. Her pathology was described in medical records she had brought with her as "an infiltrating ductal carinoma (closed margins) of the right breast 1.5 centimeters in diameter and involving three lymph nodes." The tumor was classified by the woman's oncologist as stage II cancer at grade III (most agressive) and non-estrogen-receptive. ''In April 1997, the computerized axial tomography (CAT) scan that Mrs. Collins had undergone also showed some areas that doctors declared they needed to "watch" on her liver and lung. She chose to receive a lumpectomy breast procedure, after which the attending oncologist recommended that six months of chemotherapy be carried out. But her brest surgeon did not agree. He said that in his experience such a series of toxic chemical treatments had never prolonged anyone's life and he would not suggest that she accept chemotherapy. The oncologist also wanted Mrs. Collins to take seven weeks of radiation therapy with some extra radiation "swats" for the closed margins. The brest surgeon did not express enthusiasm for radiotherapy either. "I was staggered by being confronted with the oncologist's negative choices. They just did not add up and so I began to look for some options. I selected the Gerson Therapy rather than accept the chemo and radiation," Mrs. Collins stated for publication. She was intriged with Dr. Gerson's saltless diet, for the woman had for years suspected that most of us take in too much salt by excessive seasoning. And she often experienced cellular edema (swelling) from the sodium chloride added to foods. So Mrs. Collings thought she would adapt well to the Gerson theraupeutic saltless eating program. Thus, she immediately embarked on the full menu plan of the Gerson Therapy. "The decision made, my daughter and I took off for the Gerson Healing Center in Sedona where we involved ourselves in the healing atmosphere. It was so refreshing and invigorating. Everyone was exceedingly positive, happy, and encouraging, even the cleaning lady. The care, the wonderful saltless food, the other patients and staff...were all special and good. As a result, my healing took place swiftly. I underwent another CAT scan in September 1997, after being on the Gerson Therapy for six months, and all of the scans were reported as clear of cancer - my lesions are gone. And it's official from by breast surgeon too, who additionally reported on my diagnostic tests. He said that I am free of cancer without having taken any chemotherapy or radiation," said Celia Collins.'' "I'm so happy!"
This page is unsupported nonsense, all sources quoted in the article in support of the "therapy" fall below normal scientific standards. I also see links to commercial organisation's websites. I'm new here, and liable to fall foul of the required etiquette if I were to try, but could someone with more experience remove everything without a reliable source from the page. I think you'll find that if you do, there will be no article left, only criticism. 80.168.87.20 15:32, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed this from the "Efficacy" since whoever wrote did not do enough research on the topic and decided to write his opinion about it. As I found easily a 5 year study done by the University of California, San Diego. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quicktime ( talk • contribs) 01:33, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
While anecdotal reports abound the Gerson literature, no statistical scientific studies are available at any Gerson website or in their literature. For example, the many clinics listed below reportedly receive many patients for training, but no data has been published to define how many enter, what their actual medical history is, or what their actual outcome was after treatment. There is no scientifically valid evidence for the efficacy of this treatment.
Someone needs to do soemthing about the vandal below [above]. The removed text summarises medical opinion, and is entirely backed by the external sources links. It has been replaced by text backed only by a single study by the gerson institute.I think it's pretty clear that this vandal is the unsigned author of the nonsense in the last section. I dont want to get into childish tit for tat on this, I'm going to revert it all once. I think an admin needs to step in
80.168.87.20
09:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
What is a coffee enema? How is it performed? Can you used ground coffee or do you have to use whole beans? Regular or Decafe (Copyright W.W.)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.192.10.219 ( talk • contribs) 16:44- 17:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I have cleared the references section, as these references were for the previous gerson propaganda version of the article, and are no longer applicable. 80.168.87.18 14:26- 14:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
The references have been put back in, as have the spelling mistakes and duplications of text which I removed at the same time. The person doing this claims the stuff reverted is "POV fluff". As the references are 100% uncritical Gerson Propaganda, and most of what was reverted was spelling mistakes and duplications, this seems an unsustainable argument. I'm going to take them out one more time. 80.168.87.18 19:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I have moved the following comments from the article to the discussion page, though as they are unattributed, unsupported personal opinion, and simple personal abuse it would perhaps be more valid to delete them entirely.
"The following section is corrupt and the negativity flowing from the writer proves that he/she has a slanted view. Do not believe the negative comments the writer has included, this person is obviously an unhappy individual who most probably doesn't have very many friends due to his/her agressive and insane behavior which was most probably created by the writers unhappiness with the size or shape of their genitals. We feel for you!" (Added to article 04:39, 6 October 2006 (UTC) by Special:Contributions/206.45.184.53)
They are unworthy of further comment 80.168.87.18 09:42- 09:49, 6 October 2006 (UTC)