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This article was listed on votes for deletion; see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Gerovital. [[User:Poccil| Peter O. ( Talk, automation script)]] 05:36, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)
For a December 2004 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Gerovital
This page reads like a pamphlet from Aslan herself. It should be rewritten in an objective tone.
Tourist attraction: http://www.romaniatourism.com/blacksea.html:
I have to wonder... C. S. Lewis's first Narnia book, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, was published in 1950. In these books, Aslan is a magical lion who is also a Christ-like or God-like figure. It's an interesting name, and it is surprisng to me to suddenly encounter it in a completely different context. Ana Aslan was apparently just starting to become well known in 1950... I wonder if Aslan is a common Romanian surname? I wonder if Lewis was aware of it as a Romanian surname and liked the sound of it, or what? [[User:Dpbsmith| Dpbsmith (talk)]] 02:40, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It does not seem to be a terribly common Romanian surname. Google search on Romanian-language results only for "aslan" gives 802 hits, "aslan -ana" 509 hits so over a third of all the Aslans known to Google are Ana Aslan...
...seems to always be given as Gerovital H3. It is not just "Gerovital." There does not seem to be a hyphen between the H and the 3. I have seen some instances where the 3 was superscripted, Gerovital H3. If the article survives VfD I will leave it under Gerovital because that's shorter and easier to look up, but intend to add a redirect from Gerovital H3 and possibly GH3 and G-H3 which seem to be common abbreviations. [[User:Dpbsmith| Dpbsmith (talk)]] 21:45, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Procaine dosages suggested by Gerovital suppliers are low compared to those used for anesthesia. The "package insert" link in the article shows that one preparation contains 100 mg. of procaine per individual dose. Dosages of over 500 mg are commonly used in local anesthesia. One figure for the "minimum anesthetic dose associated with adverse reactions" 19.2 mg of procaine per kg of body weight, or over 1300 mg for an a person weighting 70 kg (154 lb). This shouldn't go into the article though because I'm not sure of my ground and this is really too close to expressing a medical opinion.
http://www.btinternet.com/~teppic2000/KurtCobainCase/DMDPT8.htm says procaine is a common adulterant in street heroin and strongly implies that it may have played a factor in Kurt Cobain's death. [[User:Dpbsmith| Dpbsmith (talk)]] 03:03, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The url
http://www.btinternet.com/~teppic2000/KurtCobainCase/DMDPT8.htm cited as the basis for the above entry by Dpbsmith does not "strongly imply" - or imply at all - that procaine "may have played a factor in Kurt Cobain's death. Section 3 on the referenced url page mentions procaine is sometimes used as a filler in heroin, but does not give an opinion as to whether the heroin used by Kurt Cobain contained procaine.
It does say, however, that combining benzodiazepines (diazepam) and heroin are common partners in death because "both drugs cause respiratory depression" and increase the likelihood of respiratory failure.
I'm still researching this, but this Gerovital advocacy article, http://www.medical-library.net/sites/framer.html?/sites/_gerovital_(gh3).html, stays that it is still banned by the FDA, and as nearly as I can tell all websites offering to supply it are located overseas, so I'm reasonably sure it is still illegal to sell it in interstate commerce in the United States. [[User:Dpbsmith| Dpbsmith (talk)]] 17:30, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
How is it administered? From the prohibition list, I understand that it can be taken orally, injected and as a cream, isn't it? What did Aslan use? -- 84.20.17.84 13:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC) It is a cream. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.228.152.6 ( talk) 18:46, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
The paragraphs in the first section beginning "As with many scientific discoveries," "Ana Aslan, MD was a Doctor of the National Institute of Gerontology and Geriatrics," "This notion launched her," and "Claims coming out of the Institute's clinics" all need sources. All that's needed is to say where they came from. Very likely they are from some book or magazine article about Aslan or Gerovital. All I'm asking for good citation(s) of the book or article--title, year of publication, publisher, magazine if not a book, page numbers, etc. It's just a question of where the information came from. If it's a book by Aslan, that would be a very good source. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:57, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
It was necessary to alter some sentences to insure neutrality. These particular sentences had no citations and were apparently the product of the imagination of someone who really, really hates Gerovital. Medicine is amazingly political and I've been fascinated how slanted some articles on science, particularly medicine, can be here on Wikipedia. Gingermint ( talk) 23:46, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
The sentence He adds, "don't bother with a conventional doctor [who] will have the usual American medical establishment brain wash attitude." seems to give a POV weighted against medicine and towards Supplementary, Complementary, and Alternative Medicines. I'd delete it but I bring it here first. Jerod Lycett ( talk) 06:38, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Gerovital/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
More and standardized reference citations would be very helpful. John Carter 20:15, 11 July 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 20:15, 11 July 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 16:10, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
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The article is clearly one sided, it could be because the company is not chipping in. Just sources that denounce it are mentioned, and misleading quotations are used, like in that 1973 article the quote was taken out of context:
The article clearly states that scienVats tried something else with little effects, while the wikipedia article says the article mentions 3 clinical trials, which were mentioned but they were taken 10 years before, not related to the "cold" water statement. In the article the defender's of the drugs views are also mentioned, still the editor managed to collect just the negative review.
Only failed clinical trials are mentioned.
Also, saying that it is promoted using false claims, that would be illegal, still it is sold all over Europe. Talking about false claims, we have many other anti-aging creams that are promoted in the same way, just with different main ingredients such as Retinol or Coenzime Q10.
The FDA has banned many other drugs that are used in the EU and other parts of the world, so if the FDA has banned it it does not mean that is automatically something dangerous.
Some of the sources are from the communist period, when the propaganda was writing one sided articles in order to denounce on purpose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.103.128.131 ( talk) 04:44, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
In the Effectiveness section, only one source is mentioned, a source that denounces the drug 3 times on the page:
Perls T (June 2013). "The reappearance of procaine hydrochloride (Gerovital H3) for antiaging". J Am Geriatr Soc. 61 (6): 1024–5. doi:10.1111/jgs.12278. PMID 23772727.
Jump up ^
Perls T seems to be the only authority on this, even if many other sources that claim different views can be found online.
Other 3 from 8 sources are using FDA arguments to denounce the drug, so the same authority is present as 3 different sources, basically the FDA Ban Section, and the Quaility Control section are based on the same authority. The same authority is used in Denouncement.
Jed Disbennett (March 1994). "Unproven Medical Treatments Lure Elderly". FDA Consumer Magazine. Archived from the original on 2004-12-11.
Jump up ^
"FDA Quotes". Tierra Mega-Nutrients. Archived from the original on 2006-06-20. Retrieved 2006-11-28.
Jump up ^
"Automatic Detention [for Gerovital] (IA#61-01)". U.S. Food and Drug Administration. Archived from the original on 2006-09-30. Retrieved 2006-11-28.
The above criticism, a year and a half old, is largely accurate. This article manages to be too negative about a quack product, and that is difficult. This article needs a little toning down. We don't need to be quite as hard in the voice of Wikipedia. There must be plenty of anti-quack newsletters to quote from. Robert McClenon ( talk) 08:49, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Gerovital article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was listed on votes for deletion; see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Gerovital. [[User:Poccil| Peter O. ( Talk, automation script)]] 05:36, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)
For a December 2004 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Gerovital
This page reads like a pamphlet from Aslan herself. It should be rewritten in an objective tone.
Tourist attraction: http://www.romaniatourism.com/blacksea.html:
I have to wonder... C. S. Lewis's first Narnia book, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, was published in 1950. In these books, Aslan is a magical lion who is also a Christ-like or God-like figure. It's an interesting name, and it is surprisng to me to suddenly encounter it in a completely different context. Ana Aslan was apparently just starting to become well known in 1950... I wonder if Aslan is a common Romanian surname? I wonder if Lewis was aware of it as a Romanian surname and liked the sound of it, or what? [[User:Dpbsmith| Dpbsmith (talk)]] 02:40, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It does not seem to be a terribly common Romanian surname. Google search on Romanian-language results only for "aslan" gives 802 hits, "aslan -ana" 509 hits so over a third of all the Aslans known to Google are Ana Aslan...
...seems to always be given as Gerovital H3. It is not just "Gerovital." There does not seem to be a hyphen between the H and the 3. I have seen some instances where the 3 was superscripted, Gerovital H3. If the article survives VfD I will leave it under Gerovital because that's shorter and easier to look up, but intend to add a redirect from Gerovital H3 and possibly GH3 and G-H3 which seem to be common abbreviations. [[User:Dpbsmith| Dpbsmith (talk)]] 21:45, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Procaine dosages suggested by Gerovital suppliers are low compared to those used for anesthesia. The "package insert" link in the article shows that one preparation contains 100 mg. of procaine per individual dose. Dosages of over 500 mg are commonly used in local anesthesia. One figure for the "minimum anesthetic dose associated with adverse reactions" 19.2 mg of procaine per kg of body weight, or over 1300 mg for an a person weighting 70 kg (154 lb). This shouldn't go into the article though because I'm not sure of my ground and this is really too close to expressing a medical opinion.
http://www.btinternet.com/~teppic2000/KurtCobainCase/DMDPT8.htm says procaine is a common adulterant in street heroin and strongly implies that it may have played a factor in Kurt Cobain's death. [[User:Dpbsmith| Dpbsmith (talk)]] 03:03, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The url
http://www.btinternet.com/~teppic2000/KurtCobainCase/DMDPT8.htm cited as the basis for the above entry by Dpbsmith does not "strongly imply" - or imply at all - that procaine "may have played a factor in Kurt Cobain's death. Section 3 on the referenced url page mentions procaine is sometimes used as a filler in heroin, but does not give an opinion as to whether the heroin used by Kurt Cobain contained procaine.
It does say, however, that combining benzodiazepines (diazepam) and heroin are common partners in death because "both drugs cause respiratory depression" and increase the likelihood of respiratory failure.
I'm still researching this, but this Gerovital advocacy article, http://www.medical-library.net/sites/framer.html?/sites/_gerovital_(gh3).html, stays that it is still banned by the FDA, and as nearly as I can tell all websites offering to supply it are located overseas, so I'm reasonably sure it is still illegal to sell it in interstate commerce in the United States. [[User:Dpbsmith| Dpbsmith (talk)]] 17:30, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
How is it administered? From the prohibition list, I understand that it can be taken orally, injected and as a cream, isn't it? What did Aslan use? -- 84.20.17.84 13:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC) It is a cream. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.228.152.6 ( talk) 18:46, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
The paragraphs in the first section beginning "As with many scientific discoveries," "Ana Aslan, MD was a Doctor of the National Institute of Gerontology and Geriatrics," "This notion launched her," and "Claims coming out of the Institute's clinics" all need sources. All that's needed is to say where they came from. Very likely they are from some book or magazine article about Aslan or Gerovital. All I'm asking for good citation(s) of the book or article--title, year of publication, publisher, magazine if not a book, page numbers, etc. It's just a question of where the information came from. If it's a book by Aslan, that would be a very good source. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:57, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
It was necessary to alter some sentences to insure neutrality. These particular sentences had no citations and were apparently the product of the imagination of someone who really, really hates Gerovital. Medicine is amazingly political and I've been fascinated how slanted some articles on science, particularly medicine, can be here on Wikipedia. Gingermint ( talk) 23:46, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
The sentence He adds, "don't bother with a conventional doctor [who] will have the usual American medical establishment brain wash attitude." seems to give a POV weighted against medicine and towards Supplementary, Complementary, and Alternative Medicines. I'd delete it but I bring it here first. Jerod Lycett ( talk) 06:38, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Gerovital/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
More and standardized reference citations would be very helpful. John Carter 20:15, 11 July 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 20:15, 11 July 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 16:10, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Gerovital. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 03:48, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
The article is clearly one sided, it could be because the company is not chipping in. Just sources that denounce it are mentioned, and misleading quotations are used, like in that 1973 article the quote was taken out of context:
The article clearly states that scienVats tried something else with little effects, while the wikipedia article says the article mentions 3 clinical trials, which were mentioned but they were taken 10 years before, not related to the "cold" water statement. In the article the defender's of the drugs views are also mentioned, still the editor managed to collect just the negative review.
Only failed clinical trials are mentioned.
Also, saying that it is promoted using false claims, that would be illegal, still it is sold all over Europe. Talking about false claims, we have many other anti-aging creams that are promoted in the same way, just with different main ingredients such as Retinol or Coenzime Q10.
The FDA has banned many other drugs that are used in the EU and other parts of the world, so if the FDA has banned it it does not mean that is automatically something dangerous.
Some of the sources are from the communist period, when the propaganda was writing one sided articles in order to denounce on purpose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.103.128.131 ( talk) 04:44, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
In the Effectiveness section, only one source is mentioned, a source that denounces the drug 3 times on the page:
Perls T (June 2013). "The reappearance of procaine hydrochloride (Gerovital H3) for antiaging". J Am Geriatr Soc. 61 (6): 1024–5. doi:10.1111/jgs.12278. PMID 23772727.
Jump up ^
Perls T seems to be the only authority on this, even if many other sources that claim different views can be found online.
Other 3 from 8 sources are using FDA arguments to denounce the drug, so the same authority is present as 3 different sources, basically the FDA Ban Section, and the Quaility Control section are based on the same authority. The same authority is used in Denouncement.
Jed Disbennett (March 1994). "Unproven Medical Treatments Lure Elderly". FDA Consumer Magazine. Archived from the original on 2004-12-11.
Jump up ^
"FDA Quotes". Tierra Mega-Nutrients. Archived from the original on 2006-06-20. Retrieved 2006-11-28.
Jump up ^
"Automatic Detention [for Gerovital] (IA#61-01)". U.S. Food and Drug Administration. Archived from the original on 2006-09-30. Retrieved 2006-11-28.
The above criticism, a year and a half old, is largely accurate. This article manages to be too negative about a quack product, and that is difficult. This article needs a little toning down. We don't need to be quite as hard in the voice of Wikipedia. There must be plenty of anti-quack newsletters to quote from. Robert McClenon ( talk) 08:49, 12 December 2018 (UTC)