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Should this be moved to simply Germanic law? Srnec 01:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I think it's better to keep it as Early Germanic law, so that legal codes of modern Germanic peoples can be treated separately should the need arise. 128.187.0.164 01:30, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Why isn't Anglo-Saxon law included among the list of Early Germanic law. It's actually in a Germanic language, rather than Latin, and there's already a Wikipedia article on it: Anglo-Saxon_law 128.187.0.164 01:30, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
First of all the word homosexuality and our modern concept of it did not exist prior to the 1880'th. That is why I use the term "samesex erotisism" below. The translation of "corpore infames" as "unnatural prostitutes" is an anacronism. The argument of branding samesex erotisism as unnatural was mainly put forward by the christian church, long time after Tacitus. There is nothing to surgest that Tacitus or the germans about whom he wrote thought of samesex erotisism as either unnatural or "dishonorable". The latter being the correct translation of the latin word "infames." The sentence "corpore infames" means "those who has dishonored their body." It is placed in a long line of words discribing unwanted behaveour in battle. There is no reason why a sexual practis would suddenly appear in such a context. The grecco-roman view on samesex erotisism may or may not have been the same amongst the germanic peoples. We don't know. and Taitus text doesn't sayanything about it. The grecco-roman view on samesex erotisism would have been Tacitus background. To him there would have been nothing "unnatural" or "dishonorable" about buggering an other man. And even though the one being buggerd would have been rediculed if he was a real roman he-man there where no laws against it and there is nothing to surgest that Tacitus thought it was a problem. The assosiation of "corpore infames" with homosexuality is a 19'th century christian prejudice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.107.12.196 ( talk) 11:51, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Rouche seems to have a political agenda maligning the oral judges system, in favor of a more rationalistic constructivist one. If you look at the analogous lawspeaker article for medieval scandinavian law there seems to be no indication that these people were viewed as unpredictably terrifying or overly subjective. The quotes should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.24.134.170 ( talk) 16:21, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
Someone here has misunderstood the use of the progressive tenses in English. Wegesrand ( talk) 09:31, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
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Possibly useful-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 09:49, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
(
help) (Seems to be based on Wormald)@ Srnec: you've done some work on Germanic law. Any interest in helping here? Also, I agree with your question way back when. This article should be at Germanic law. I'm not aware of any scholarship that calls it "Early".-- Ermenrich ( talk) 16:04, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
Suggestion 196.21.236.5 ( talk) 12:13, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
I've reverted recent changes by an IP because they changed what Schmidt-Wiegand says to exclude a Roman origin of wergild. There were other additions, however. I've so far been unable to identify "Lenski 2022/2023" (either two citations or a single citation but with the wrong years in one or both places), but Bothe, Esders and Nijdam 2021 is [this https://brill-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/display/title/33000?rskey=fSnDAV&result=1], available at Brill. I can't say the citation it was used for is that significant, but the book, entirely on wergild and recent, could be useful if properly cited.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 14:06, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
Zu den noch nicht restlos geklärten Fragen in der wiss. Forsch. gehört die nach dem Ursprung der Kompositionsregelung: röm. Vorbild oder traditionelles Verfahren?This is a statement that scholars are divided on the issue, which must be reflected as such in the article. Schmidt-Wiegand does indeed argue for one side or another, but we cannot take that as the definitive position on the issue. Camby, for instance, would disagree.
More recent work has shown that the range of enumerated offenses for personal injury is generally uniform across the codes and that the compositions mirror one another closely if calculated as a percentage of an individual's Wergild value, indications of a shared tradition.This is cited to you - I've only skimmed the chapter, but I don't recall you referring to other scholars who share this opinion. If there aren't any/you don't cite them, we had better change it to "Noel Lenski, however, argues" or something to that effect. And for purposes of WP:DUE, we should make sure that your opinion is not given undue weight in our summary. Such is the way of Wikipedia.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 01:21, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
I think that this section needs drastic trimming and rewriting with more recent sources. I'm not even sure we need to summarize the Leges at all. Each of them have their own page, after all.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 13:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
Things that should probably be discussed here in some capacity:
I bring these things up not because scholarship necessarily believes they are "Germanic" nowadays, but because they have historically been assumed to be Germanic and some readers might expect them here. Their "Germanicness" would be a subject of the section.
What else? I wonder if a brief section on the Scandinavian laws wouldn't be in order as well.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 15:28, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
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Should this be moved to simply Germanic law? Srnec 01:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I think it's better to keep it as Early Germanic law, so that legal codes of modern Germanic peoples can be treated separately should the need arise. 128.187.0.164 01:30, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Why isn't Anglo-Saxon law included among the list of Early Germanic law. It's actually in a Germanic language, rather than Latin, and there's already a Wikipedia article on it: Anglo-Saxon_law 128.187.0.164 01:30, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
First of all the word homosexuality and our modern concept of it did not exist prior to the 1880'th. That is why I use the term "samesex erotisism" below. The translation of "corpore infames" as "unnatural prostitutes" is an anacronism. The argument of branding samesex erotisism as unnatural was mainly put forward by the christian church, long time after Tacitus. There is nothing to surgest that Tacitus or the germans about whom he wrote thought of samesex erotisism as either unnatural or "dishonorable". The latter being the correct translation of the latin word "infames." The sentence "corpore infames" means "those who has dishonored their body." It is placed in a long line of words discribing unwanted behaveour in battle. There is no reason why a sexual practis would suddenly appear in such a context. The grecco-roman view on samesex erotisism may or may not have been the same amongst the germanic peoples. We don't know. and Taitus text doesn't sayanything about it. The grecco-roman view on samesex erotisism would have been Tacitus background. To him there would have been nothing "unnatural" or "dishonorable" about buggering an other man. And even though the one being buggerd would have been rediculed if he was a real roman he-man there where no laws against it and there is nothing to surgest that Tacitus thought it was a problem. The assosiation of "corpore infames" with homosexuality is a 19'th century christian prejudice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.107.12.196 ( talk) 11:51, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Rouche seems to have a political agenda maligning the oral judges system, in favor of a more rationalistic constructivist one. If you look at the analogous lawspeaker article for medieval scandinavian law there seems to be no indication that these people were viewed as unpredictably terrifying or overly subjective. The quotes should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.24.134.170 ( talk) 16:21, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
Someone here has misunderstood the use of the progressive tenses in English. Wegesrand ( talk) 09:31, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:13, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
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Possibly useful-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 09:49, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
(
help) (Seems to be based on Wormald)@ Srnec: you've done some work on Germanic law. Any interest in helping here? Also, I agree with your question way back when. This article should be at Germanic law. I'm not aware of any scholarship that calls it "Early".-- Ermenrich ( talk) 16:04, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
Suggestion 196.21.236.5 ( talk) 12:13, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
I've reverted recent changes by an IP because they changed what Schmidt-Wiegand says to exclude a Roman origin of wergild. There were other additions, however. I've so far been unable to identify "Lenski 2022/2023" (either two citations or a single citation but with the wrong years in one or both places), but Bothe, Esders and Nijdam 2021 is [this https://brill-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/display/title/33000?rskey=fSnDAV&result=1], available at Brill. I can't say the citation it was used for is that significant, but the book, entirely on wergild and recent, could be useful if properly cited.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 14:06, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
Zu den noch nicht restlos geklärten Fragen in der wiss. Forsch. gehört die nach dem Ursprung der Kompositionsregelung: röm. Vorbild oder traditionelles Verfahren?This is a statement that scholars are divided on the issue, which must be reflected as such in the article. Schmidt-Wiegand does indeed argue for one side or another, but we cannot take that as the definitive position on the issue. Camby, for instance, would disagree.
More recent work has shown that the range of enumerated offenses for personal injury is generally uniform across the codes and that the compositions mirror one another closely if calculated as a percentage of an individual's Wergild value, indications of a shared tradition.This is cited to you - I've only skimmed the chapter, but I don't recall you referring to other scholars who share this opinion. If there aren't any/you don't cite them, we had better change it to "Noel Lenski, however, argues" or something to that effect. And for purposes of WP:DUE, we should make sure that your opinion is not given undue weight in our summary. Such is the way of Wikipedia.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 01:21, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
I think that this section needs drastic trimming and rewriting with more recent sources. I'm not even sure we need to summarize the Leges at all. Each of them have their own page, after all.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 13:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
Things that should probably be discussed here in some capacity:
I bring these things up not because scholarship necessarily believes they are "Germanic" nowadays, but because they have historically been assumed to be Germanic and some readers might expect them here. Their "Germanicness" would be a subject of the section.
What else? I wonder if a brief section on the Scandinavian laws wouldn't be in order as well.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 15:28, 7 March 2024 (UTC)