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I would propose revising the sentence in the "Design" section that refers to the Treaty of Versailles. The 35,000 tons refers to the provisions of the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922 and the Anglo-German Naval Agreement (1935) that allowed Germany to build up to five 35K tons BBs. The Versailles reference, on the other hand, relates only to the limit of 10K tons on any German capital ship; therefore it's not that helpful IMHO. Any comments? bigpad 18:35, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
1). Bismarck is undoubtly the most famous battleship of all time if looked at the vast number of books written about het last voyage (over 100)and the number of hits at internet for Bismarck is highest of all battleships. I don't clame Bismarck is the best battleship. Most articles point at the "better" US-battleships, notably the Iowa's, the "huge and strong" Yamato's or the equallly good Richelieu.
2). At 9.02 2 hits crippled Bismarck fatally in her last fight: one of Rodney between turrets Anton and Bruno puting them both out of action and one 8 inch hit on the main gun director on top of the conning tower blow it away!!
3). High casualty hits came about 10.00 when Rodney fired at point blank close range.
4). Over 1000 to 1200 of her crew jumped into the icecold water. The other were killed in their gun turrets. in the bridge/connuing tower or because of some penetration hits around 10.00. The admiral bridge suffered no single hit.
5). Bismarck was designed to withstand torpedo damage. Together with her high degree of subdivision means that she was almost unsinkable!!! After so many hits he hull showed no torpedodamage (except om the rudder); only 4 penetartions of the vertical armour belt and NO penetrations of the main armor deck (horizontal. So the whole British fleet could not sink Bismarck but was able to put her out of the fight. In this respect the Bismarck was (far?) superior to the battleships of other nations. The poor welding of the joints of the the armour belt on the Yamato's together with her less subdivision meant that the Yamato's were vulnerable to torpedo damage. The weak roof armor on the 15 cm turrets was also a very vulnerable spot in her defense against bomb attacks. The Iowa's certainly also have weak spots, but these are seldom described or documented.
6). Bismarck was able to fire most of her shells on her last voyage.
7). There are striking resemblances between the hunt after the Bismarck and the Scharnhorst. Both sinkings were caused by 1-2 lucky hits (Bismarck on rudder and early hit between A and B turrets, Scharnhorst in Boiler room and both ship early in the battle lost their main rader/rangefinder).
8). Sources were Garzke & Dullin.
An anon has just added quite a few edits in, some of which are typo corrections or clarification that are fine, but its interspersed with OR. Anyone have the heart to wade through this and prune? Narson 01:18, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I can't disagree that the section could disappear without anyone losing too much sleep; but if criticisms of the ship's design are valid, and can be referenced, then the weasel words issue is secondary. I must apologise for these WWs but I wasn't aware that they extend to using "it's possible.., etc." I thought WW means avoiding superlatives and pejorative terms. bigpad 13:44, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
The "Bismarck fanboys" must be delighted that a huge non-fan like you has referenced an unreferenced section... bigpad 11:36, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
I was surprised that there wasn't an image for this article, or really any in the commons, so I made one. Though most of the pictures I have seen are fuzzy and descriptions a bit vague, I tried to color the model as it would have appeared when fighting HMS Hood. Anynobody 05:37, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
The Drawing in the Infobox is awful. The form of the hull ist false, the proportions ist false (turrets to large), the bow is false ....-- WerWil ( talk) 09:11, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Flat Bottom: Its right, that you might see it that wayin some near Perspective, but it ist missleeding to show it in a Drawing like this, especially in the view form the Bow it looks as if the Bismarck had a "Pear-shaped" bottom.
Bow Bulk: The Ship never had a Bulk to the Front. The only thing was an extension to the sides in the "Keel line". The Picture you have linked shows the Situation whith Perpendicularly bow which seems to have a Curvature to the front but it was straight. In 1939 the Bismarck got a so called "Atlantik Bow" like on the Drawings I have linked (whith no bulk to the front).
Buckles: I meant the not continous Line in plan view.
--
WerWil (
talk) 12:02, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't the Bismarck have a single rudder? Im not sure what ship the 3D model is but its not the Bismarck. Single rudder was one of the main reasons that "a hit by a single torpedo jammed Bismarck's rudder and steering gear." and in extension one of the reasons for the ships sinking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.248.105.192 ( talk) 16:34, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
The article mentions tons. Are these long or short? J ɪ m p 23:54, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
The article about the Anglo-German Naval Agreement never mentions the 35,000 ton single-ship limitation, concentrating on the 35:100 Kriegsmarine/Royal Navy ratio. Could anyone source the "Anglo-German Naval Agreement (1935) that allowed Germany to build up to five 35,000-ton battleships" part? -- Saaska ( talk) 05:43, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Source is needed for Huge dents showed that the 14 inch (356 mm) shells fired by the King George V bounced off the German belt, since a given reference [2] (a terrific analysis indeed), don't give such information. Besides, it is doubtful, for Bismarck's belt was relatively thin, as the mentioned article explains. And belt was no Wotan type armour, but KC n/A. Pibwl ←« 19:15, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
"Her range of weaponry could easily decimate any convoy she encountered."
Well, Scheer managed to sink 5 out of 38 ships of HX.84, which is a decimation at least, so I expect Bismarck could do as well; but I think you probably mean something else.
Or is it irony?
Xyl 54 (
talk) 17:29, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I see someone had the sense to remove the silly unreferenced one in a million claim. Bis's stern was especially susceptible to damage because her armor scheme was below par in that area, and the three shaft layout weakens the keel at the stern. Quite what the probability of a torpedo launched from behind (from memory) hitting the stern is, I'm not sure, 30% at a guess, sideways on it is what, 5% or so, if we count the stern as being from the screws rearward? So one in a million is more like one in twenty. All OR of course. Another way of looking at it would be to review all hits by torpedoes on BBs and see how many hit the stern. If you are that interested. Greg Locock ( talk) 19:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Whilst it is customary for ships to be referred to as female, in the case of the Bismarck I'm not sure this is entirely appropriate. The captain and crew of the ship are known to have thought of the ship as masculine. -- LiamE ( talk) 14:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC) I've been having a bit of a look for a good source on this, not found one yet but have found plenty of discussion on the point. At the moment the german wiki article uses she so barring a great source being turned up no changes are necessary. Anyone got a decent book mentioning this? -- LiamE ( talk) 15:51, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I've noticed that in the references section, about half of the list is just a bibliography, not inline citations, which should be the correct format. So for those who have the books listed, if you have the time, can you at least pick one or two things that can be sourced to those books? It would also be good if anyone is considering working this article to a higher quality rating. Thanks. Parsecboy ( talk) 14:21, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
The CG image, as good as it is, should not really be in the main picture slot. This should be reserved for a real war time picture. I think perhaps a more suitable place is in the the "breakout" section. Dapi89 ( talk) 13:09, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand why not. It is an image taken more than 50 years ago. I wish Admin's would just leave it alone. I still would oppose the use of graphics in a slot designed for a photographic image. Hence I promoted another image I have uploaded (some time ago) there instead. Dapi89 ( talk) 18:00, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
This work is copyrighted and unlicensed. It does not fall into one of the blanket acceptable non-free content categories listed at Wikipedia:Non-free content#Acceptable images or Wikipedia:Non-free content#Acceptable audio clips. However, it is believed that the use of this work in the article "[[{{{1}}}]]" :
qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law. Any other uses of this image, on Wikipedia or elsewhere, may be copyright infringement. See Wikipedia:Non-free content and Wikipedia:Copyrights.
To the uploader: this tag is not a sufficient claim of fair use. You must also include the source of the work, all available copyright information, and a detailed non-free use rationale.
There are articles rated GA that use images in this way. I would also say your image is not the best either is it. It is not an exact depiction therefore not appropriate for a lead image. By the way I have corrected the image information to be inline with these other articles. You may want to check out the Hans-Joachim Marseille article. Dapi89 ( talk) 11:20, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I did use the one you suggest, (which is one I uploaded some time ago) and it was deleted by Anynobody Dapi89 ( talk) 14:32, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I disagree on a number of points, but as a I have niether the energy, time or inclination to keep changing it I am just going to leave it as it is. I can't guarantee somebody else will not remove it. Dapi89 ( talk) 09:37, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
After reading this letter from www.bismarck-class.dk, I decided changes were in order. Specifically making sure the gun barrels/turret tops are dark gray, the aft wave is retained and the dark portions at each end just ahead/behind the waves. Anynobody 04:06, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Final battle from www.bismarck-class.dk(for easy access)
Our section says The third survey found no underwater penetrations of the ship's fully-armoured citadel and only four direct hit holes on it above the waterline, all of them on one side, as delivered by Rodney's 16 inch (406 mm) guns. Huge dents showed that the 14 inch (356 mm) shells fired by King George V bounced off the German belt armour What's the source for this? KGV wasn't in a position to hit Bismarck's belt so much as her deck given the distance between KGV and the German ship. www.bismarck-class.dk says KGV was firing from 20,000 (21,872 yards) to 11,000 meters (12,029 yards) meaning her shots would have been plunging and therefore coming from above. Rodney got much closer, 3,600 meters (3,937 yards) meaning for a while her shots were more like direct fire, and would have been more likely to hit the belt. It's difficult to imagine 14" shells simply bouncing off (exploding, causing damage, but not penetrating sounds more accurate), but next to impossible to imagine 16" shells doing that.
Anynobody 03:22, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
(moved from my talk page)
Hi, please do not amend the text that says "lost" to "sank". This issue is well discussed in the Talk section and "lost", the normal word in English for a ship that goes under the waves, is the best compromise after an extensive debate. "Sank" invites questions as to who sunk it, which is disputed. Thanks, bigpad ( talk) 11:47, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- Please don't take this the wrong way but I'm going to move this to the article's talk page and respond there, this way anyone not watching my page can participate. Anynobody 03:17, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
The reason I changed it from lost to sunk is two-fold.
First because other ships here are listed as sunk, like the
Tirpitz or
Yorktown and the ship isn't exactly lost since Ballard found it.
Second the section it references, Controversy, also says it sunk. The controversy is over whether the sinking was caused by German scuttling it or British damage. Either way, Bismarck sank.
Anynobody 03:26, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree with this. I had opted for this earlier, but Bigpad reverted it. The logic is sound. To help I have renamed the "Controversy" section to Controversy over the cause of the sinking. This should make it crystal clear. Dapi89 ( talk) 09:42, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
"Sunk" means it was deliberate rather than accidental, in this case either British attacks or German scuttling; it doesn’t matter which. "Lost" is a word used by the owner of an object to indicate that it has disappeared without consent or intention. It is a sentimental expression and although it might be appropriate for a national newspaper (eg. the Volkischer Beobachter), it is not appropriate for Wikipedia. Wiki-Ed ( talk) 15:55, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Ship | Fate | Cause |
---|---|---|
Kirishima | Sunk | Similar controversy exists over this ship. Many say it was scuttled by the crew, though USS Washington's 16" shells might have had something to do with it too. |
USS Yorktown | Sunk | Combination of bombs, aerial and submarine torpedoes |
USS Cyclops | Lost | ??? |
USS America | Sunk | Expended as target |
USS Ranger | Scrapped | ---- |
Bismarck | Sunk | Either by British shells and torpedoes or scuttled by crew |
Irrelevant. We're not discussing that. Scuttling = sunk; Torpedoed = sunk; Bombed = sunk. Crashed into a rock and capsized without trace during a storm = lost. Wiki-Ed ( talk) 12:04, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
All this debate is Nitpicking. The crux of the matter is Bismarck sank! This doesn't imply anything other than it went under the waves. I think the controversy of sinking section tells the reader all they need to know. What is editors problem with it reading "sank", rather than "'lost" or "sunk"!!!?. Dapi89 ( talk) 14:40, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Wiki-Ed: Your summary is close to what I mean, but lost actually means we dunno what happened except that a ship left somewhere, never arrived at its destination, and has never been seen/heard from again. Crashed into a rock and capsized without trace during a storm... implies we know it grounded and capsized, whereas a truly lost ship hasn't been found to know that's what happened to it. (Don't get me wrong, I'm betting several lost ships met exactly that fate but I can't collect on any bets till the lost ship is found :)
Narson:You wouldn't say a scuttled ship sunk, you would say it was scuttled, that I think is the issue (That saying 'Sunk' implies not scuttled). Actually one doesn't need to say scuttled ship sunk unless they wanted to say the same thing in a different way. Scuttling is the act of letting in water in until the ship sinks. So saying the scuttled ship sunk is needlessly redundant.
To assume sunk only has the most dogmatic literal meaning is, frankly, naive. I can understand why it might seem that way, but using consistent terms between our articles isn't naive or dogmatic. Here when we say a ship is lost, the word lost means exactly that, the ship failed to return making its whereabouts and fate unknown. We know what happened to Bismarck, it sank, we don't know how it sank, whether by damage or scuttling.
Parsecboy : Narson is correct; in a naval warfare context, "sunk" implies that the ship was sunk by enemy action. Do you have a source for that assertion? I've never seen a naval source say that being "sunk" implied anything but a ship losing buoyancy. Can you cite some sources that say being sunk implies enemy action? Moreover to refute this assertion, at least as far as Wikipedia goes, check out Mutsu which was sunk by internal explosion while anchored. The allies didn't attack it, so the logic of sunk meaning by enemy action looks questionable in light of this. (There were others which sunk for non-combat reasons, a British carrier blew up around 1940, Halsey lost several smaller ships to a couple of typhoons, etc. )
The bottom line is that in disputes like this only cited sources calling the ship "Lost" can justify going against our conventions. Unlikely as it sounds, a person who's never heard of Bismarck could be confused by us saying it's lost when we know that it sunk . Anynobody 02:44, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
I did note that, and perhaps you'll note that what I've been putting here is sunk, cause disputed because the ship sunk, but whether it sank because of scuttling or damage is disputed. Anynobody 21:43, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
(Also moved from my talk page:) Please stop edit-warring on the article, especially since there is a valid discussion going on. You're not helping the situation by repeatedly altering the infobox. You're on the verge of being disruptive. Please let the discussion run its course. Parsecboy ( talk) 03:05, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Parsecboy I've laid out several good reasons why the infobox should say sunk,
bigpad if ...'being sunk'...does indeed imply action on someone esle's [sic] part how do you explain Titanic, Monitor, and Oceanos being sunk? Also, sunk is actually the past participle of sink and the correct verb Anynobody 21:40, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
bigpad please answer these questions to understand my point:(Bearing in mind that in order to become a "sunken wreck" Titanic had to first be sunk)
1) Scuttling a ship means its crew sunk it? (Yes or no)
2) Did Bismarck sink? (Yes or no)
3) Is there a dispute about what caused it to sink? (Yes or no)
4) How does saying the cause of Bismarck's sinking is disputed favor one side or another? (On to the English lesson, can you cite anything to support your contention as I did mine?)
Parsecboy you said this on my talk page but I think it's more appropriate to discuss here: a ship was sunk at such and such a time and such and such a place during wartime implies that the ship was sunk in combat. According to who? Without a citation it's according to you;
OPNAV 29-P1000 (Revised APRIL 1949) U.S. Navy Abbreviations of World War II
You must be locked into some kind of emotional cycle because while claiming sunk implies enemy action you acknowledge that a ship can indeed be sunk during wartime without enemy action so long as there is an explanation:
Mutsu Sunk by internal explosion
I hate to be so blunt about it, but let's assume you are right about the word sunk during wartime implying enemy action, you do realize that it still doesn't say how it was sunk, whether by;
torpedoes, naval gunfire, floating mine, aerial bombs, aerial gunfire, depth charges, a collision, scuttling, limpit mines, etc.
In short here are the arguments as I see them, if I get yours wrong please correct it:
Editor | Sunk/lost? | Article should say: | Evidence |
---|---|---|---|
Anynobody | Sunk | Sunk May 27, 1941 cause disputed | Ships sink, separate but related is what causes them to sink. Mutsu was sunk by an internal explosion Roma was sunk by Fritz X bombs Bismarck was sunk but the cause is disputed. |
Parsecboy | Lost | Lost May 27, 1941 | A ship sunk during wartime is assumed to have been the victim of enemy action. citation needed |
Gatoclass | Sunk | Sunk or scuttled May 27, 1941 | (Because a scuttled ship doesn't sink/isn't sunk?) |
On top of this, here's the final nail in "lost"'s coffin; The only sources I can find which describe ships as being lost are those describing their own ships. For example the US Navy had three types of "loss" described in OPNAV 29-P1000 (Revised APRIL 1949) U.S. Navy Abbreviations of World War II, so if we say Bismarck was lost, we're assuming the Nazi POV because whether scuttled or sunk by gunfire there is no way the British would say it was lost from their POV because they never "had" it. Anynobody 02:28, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I did indeed see your suggestion earlier Parsecboy but like saying the ship is lost, no other articles on here describe a ship in similar circumstances as being "neutralised" or "destroyed". Even ships which blew up, like Hood which could also be said to have been destroyed.
Narson My point is that had a US battleship been sunk, by whatever cause, the US Navy would've said the ship was "lost" because it can no longer be used. If we say Bismarck was "lost" meaning the same thing, the article immediately assumes the German POV because the British certainly didn't consider Bismarck lost did they? Anynobody 08:04, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I prefer to answer outstanding concerns because I hate it when I'm left without answers to my questions. ...why not use one of many other euphamisms? is a fair question which I think can be answered. There are actually several reasons for this;
In summary, from a third party perspective, saying a ship sunk implies nothing beyond that. (The British may or may not mean "we sunk it" when they say sunk but we're not writing from their perspective anymore than we are the Germans) Anynobody 01:58, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
This is indeed the case. Hans Zimmermann, a boiler room engineer, confirms this did happen. I fail to see any reason he would lie. Dapi89 ( talk) 21:17, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
BTW, he did survive...just incase you were wondering whether Ballard could communicate with the dead :) Dapi89 ( talk) 21:18, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
(Moved from my talk page)
I'm not saying my version must be completely accepted, but I wrote it to correct the "clunky" language of the original, so I'm going to restore my version. Rather than reverting it please build on it, because sentences like this:Bismarck's fame came from the Battle of the Denmark Strait in May 1941 (in which the battlecruiser HMS Hood, flagship and pride of the Royal Navy, was sunk), from Churchill's subsequent order to "Sink the Bismarck",[1] and from the relentless pursuit by the Royal Navy that ended with her loss only three days later. Will ensure this article never gets even good status let alone featured. Anynobody 23:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
We really ought to mention the Swordfish torpedo hit in the lead, I've seen more than one source describe this as what sealed Bismarck's fate as it might have escaped otherwise. Anynobody 00:34, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
(Moved from my talk page)
I had not changed this, but have edited most other sections. Dapi89 (talk) 01:20, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
That's cool Dapi89, feel free to edit the lead too :) I was actually talking to bigpad since he/she reverted my proposal. The lead is an important subject so I want to make sure both regular editors in addition to anyone new to this article who has an opinion can voice it. Anynobody 01:34, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I have (I was the IP) reverted the edits by this user that were totally unconstructive. As you can see he removed a citation and then proceeded to revert the information related to A.Schneider - the gunnery officer who was awarded the Knight's Cross for his part in the sinking of the Hood and was then killed by a 8 inch shell from HMS Norfolk. I would deem this important as it had such an impact on Bismarck's fate. Also "grammar" corrections were poor/pointless. Dapi89 ( talk) 13:01, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
When a deletion is made, as you know as a reverter of vandalism, without an explanation it could be regarded as vandalism. I did not say it was so. As I (or any other editor could have) read it, you were contesting the information without explanation. Having looked at the edit history none of the grammar corrections such as "until until" were made in your initial edits, which is what this complaint was about. Dapi89 ( talk) 15:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
The German Wiki states that on the morning of 27 May Bismarck tried to evacuate the ships log book via plane. This failed because the catapults were damaged. The planes, already fueled, had to be dropped into the sea to avoid additional fires resulting from the aircraft fuel igniting. This seems notable, unfortunately this is not referenced. MisterBee1966 ( talk) 13:48, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Done. Dapi89 ( talk) 18:34, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I know this has been discussed before, but there's a line in the "Background" section that bothers me. It says that Bismarck achieved a top speed of 30.1 knots during trials, an impressive speed when set against any comparable British battleship. The KGVs had a top speed of 28 knots; I don't think a knot or two faster is really all that impressive. Also consider that Bismarck's other contemporary opponent Richelieu also had a rated top speed of 30 knots. In any case, I don't think we need to have peacock terms in the article. One last questionn; the infobox has 30.8 knots as the top speed. What's the discrepancy here? Can anyone shed some light on that? Thanks. Parsecboy ( talk) 13:05, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
It was actually 31.1 achieved on its trials. So it is 3.1 knots faster. I wonder though, is this really significant? Richelieu was in Vichy hands at this point, and it did not fall into Allied hands (or become operational in their cause) until long after Bismarck had gone, so is itreally worth comparing, as they did not and were unlikely to see action against one another. I would say in a chase though 3.1 knots is significant, no? Dapi89 ( talk) 15:43, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
I thnk much too less emphazies is given to the speed of Bismark. It was the entire philosophie of Der Kriegsmarine to, so to speak, cap off the wast bulk of British capital ships by having the abillity to out run them. Having an entire section devoted to some amature speculating on the alleged design flaws, but not underlining the overridding design feature of being able to out run most if not all the opposition, is strange.
85.82.169.61 (
talk) 11:07, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Chesneau's book has a photograph of Hood actaully in the process of blowing up. The pic is taken from Prinz Eugen. It shows Norfolk on the far left, Prince of Wales in the centre, and on the fire right an upward flash can be seen; Hood blowing up. This is not the other well known photograph of Hood just after the explosion, with a pall of smoke hanging on the horizon, but the actual moment of the explosion. Could this be used in the article? Dapi89 ( talk) 15:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
BTW, I even if the answer is no, then I could upload it onto the talk page and the rest of you could have a quick look here...before it is deleted. Dapi89 ( talk) 16:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
It does. On the right, it is clearly Hood, while in the centre PoW can be seen (or rather the funnel exhaust). On the left is another plume of smoke. This is exhaust smoke, the author then says this is "presumably Nolfolk". It could have been Sulfolk but due to the positioning it has to Nolfolk. Dapi89 ( talk) 17:59, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
The pic is plastered over two pages, so the pages mess the middle of the picture up, but the important stuff is visible. The picture was taken from the 'Eugen by Gerhard Koop. Okay, here it is Dapi89 ( talk) 19:46, 24 March 2008 (UTC):
I thought long and hard about that but it doesn't make sense. It seems strange that this would be after Hood sunk. You can see clearly the upward flash. There is no smoke yet, so this is at the moment of explosion. Koop said this was first, the pall of smoke pic, which appears on the next page, was after this one. Chesnau makes that clear. Dapi89 ( talk) 20:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I noticed under the "sources" section above that Bigpad is wondering whether an increase in rating will occur after recent edits. Having experienced getting similar articles (like the Hans-Joachim Marseille article) to GA status, I can say that the lead in the article needs a considerable expansion. I remember also that a citation is needed for every paragraph at least, especially where figures and quotes are concerned. Dapi89 ( talk) 16:32, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
These two quotes from the main text seem to disagree
"Only two hits fully penetrating the main armour were located. These holes were on the starboard side, suggesting that they were 16-inch shells from Rodney. Two other penetrations above the main armour belt were found on the port side"
"The third survey found no underwater penetrations of the ship's fully-armoured citadel and only four direct hit holes on it above the waterline, all of them on one side"
If i have misunderstood please make the text clearer.
As the second survey seemed to be mainly trying to rubbish the first survey i feel its finding are going to need to be taken with a pinch of salt. Either way the findings of either dive without evidence are simply conjecture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sams37 ( talk • contribs) 03:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Holes don't necessarily = full penetration. I take the point the text is confusing. I'll sort this out. According to Ballard's sortie, the port side took the heaviest punishment due to Rodney and King George. Ballard records:
None of these holes can be said to have defeated Bismarck's armour fully, Ballard claims. Dapi89 ( talk) 20:38, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for that, also if you have time the article on KGV herself is a little light, i would update it but i am sure almost anyone else would do a better job!
Sams37 (
talk) 23:39, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks
Nonsense! Go ahead! Dapi89 ( talk) 20:44, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Doea anyone else feel that it's overkill to have a "namesake" section in the above, as it's made clear very near the start of the article who the ship was named after? If it's appropriate, that's fine if the template is to change for all warships. bigpad ( talk) 18:49, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Someone seems to be implying that it was unusual for the Admiralty to hold an inquiry after the loss of a ship. I may be wrong(I'm not), but I believe that the RN holds an inquiry if a captain GROUNDS his ship, never mind gets it sunked, scuttled in the light of the inevitable, lostipoos or whatever euphemism we are using today. Hence I pulled the mention of an inquiry. I also de-emotionalised some other wording. Greg Locock ( talk) 13:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Where in the article is Leach accused of cowardice? If you read it again, it says the withdrawal from the line of battle was "an action almost unknown in the Royal Navy", which is true and in praise of the RN's history. bigpad ( talk) 14:46, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
(This was removed; why? am I not allowed to say anything here?
Xyl 54 (
talk) 12:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC))
And what’s this? Bismarck wasn't sunk, she was lost? Is this a german thing? Is this some variation on the
stab in the back legend? ("you didn’t sink her, we sank her ourselves; we didn’t need to, but we had another one at home, so…")
Do we have the same whining about the Hood? That she wasn’t primarily a battleship, Or she was hit by a million to one shot, Or, it wasn’t the Germans who sank her, it was all those British shells going off in the magazine?
It makes me tired!
Are you saying she didn’t really sink? Or that she would have escaped under cover of darkness? Or she was just luring them in close, in order to finish them?<br?>
And yet, when the boot's on the other foot...
To take one of a hundred examples, U-108 torpedoed Ruckinge, in December 1941; she was abandoned, and dispatched later by HMS Samphire. Do the German navy’s historians forego the credit for the sinking because of this?
Do
they
Hell!
I have no expectation of changing this, seeing as how it's been thrashed out already, but I think it's worth illustrating the hypocrisy, n'est ce pas?
Xyl 54 (
talk) 11:44, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
(section restored. Xyl 54 ( talk) 12:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
This:-
"This formidable ship, the largest warship then commissioned, was intended primarily as a
commerce raider"
does need addressing. It's been sitting here, and on the other pages, for a while now, completely unsubstantiated.
It smacks of hindsight: whatever she was used for, my reading is that Hitler's intention was for a big-ship navy to challenge the French and British at sea. So this looks like an excuse to me.
Anyway, it’s a pretty unflattering claim:
Rogge (who ought to know) said the measure of a commerce raiders success was the number of ships she sank, and the time she remained at large to be a threat. By this criteria Bismarck, which never even sighted a merchant ship (let alone sank one) and was at large about a week, was the most unsuccessful commerce raider of the war. You’d be better off sticking with her being a battle ship; she was more successful at that.
Xyl 54 (
talk) 11:58, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
the Jackson refs seem to be malformed, I can't actually find the name of the book. The counterpoint about the three shafts "However the only two features the designs had in common were their armament and three-shaft propulsion plant[" is drivel, by the way. Overlay Baden and Bis. The similarities are striking. I don't know why someone keeps obsessing about Mackensen, there is very little commonality to my eye. preston P105 certainly does not support this argument - he says M was the model for Scharnhorst, as Baden was the model for Bis. I shall edit accordingly Greg Locock ( talk) 13:47, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I have reverted. You are going to have to find at least another source that refutes Jackson. He was a naval navigator, and not a "TV producer", he is a published historian with over 80 works to his name on Naval matters. Dapi89 ( talk) 22:21, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Citations can be added on name, year, and page, then traced to the references/bibliography. I don't "like" that passage, I am not here to put in or defend my own or Jacksons point of view, I don't have an agenda, all I'm interested in is what is fact. There are editors who are capable of being neutral. I'm just asking, that if authors take issue with Jackson, then we can cite them, and snub him. I'll let you know exactly what he says when I dig out the book again. Dapi89 ( talk) 23:27, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, the one and the same. Here's what Jackson has to say:
It has often been claimed that the design of the two battleships [referring of course to Tirpitz as well] was based on that of the Baden Class of World War I, laid down in 1916 as a reply to the British Queen Elizabeth Class. In fact, the only design features the two classes had in common were their armament, comprising eight 38cm (15in) guns in four twin turrets, and a three-shaft propulsion plant. It is more accurate to say that the two warships were impoved and enlarged versions of the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau, many of whose features they incorporated
I would not oppose Greg Locock's latest revision, as I don't have Preston, so I don't know what he says, or whether it does conflict with Jackson. Perhaps Jacksons view is distorted, perhaps its his own opinion, rather than an accurate piece of research. Dapi89 ( talk) 12:30, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
The main-battery arrangement closely resembled that of the Baden and Bayern of World War I. This development has resulted in some speculation that the Bismarck-class battleships were mere copies of these older ships. This is false; the new ships had to be faster, and have more protection, range, and gunpower. The percentages allocated to armor protection, propulsion, and armament were not the same. The triple-shaft arrangement and the distribution of the main armament and its caliber were the same, but these were the only similarities. [5]
I guess from what Jackson is saying, the Bismarck took more from the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau, that were based on Mackensen. Therefore, it does not share much with the Baden Class. Dapi89 ( talk) 12:52, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Why is this section here?
If it’s a primary source to back up some statement it should be listed in the sources section, not printed out in full: But it doesn’t even seem to be that. We don’t do this for any other source, so we shouldn’t for this either. And it can hardly claim to be neutral, can it? What’s next, the transcript of some propaganda broadcast for the period?
And it’s hardly accurate; Bismarck didn’t “Shoot down shot down five British aircraft on the evening of May 24”; nor did she “sink an attacking enemy destroyer on the night of May 27 and shoot up another until it burned”; in fact she didn’t score any hits at all, a fact that’s conspicuously absent in the account of the action.
I think it should be deleted.
Xyl 54 (
talk) 11:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree. I think leaving the table in and leaving a single line above it to point out the fog of war mistakes, is the best way to go. Dapi89 ( talk) 17:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
It should be noted that Bismarck did hit a number of the enemy destroyers, I cited it a while ago in the article. Dapi89 ( talk) 17:53, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
The night action, as the article says. Only superficial damage was caused (perhaps the seaman who lost his hand would disagree). Dapi89 ( talk) 17:30, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Since I am the one to have added the text from the Wehrmachtbericht in the first place I find it appropriate to comment on the issue. The Wehrmachtbericht served multiple purposes. Yes, it was propaganda but its main purpose was to inform the German people and Axis allies on the proceedings of the war without jeopardizing the war effort or revealing secrets. In the beginning of the war it was quite factual and as the tide of war turned against Germany it became very selective to say the least. If anyone is interested and is able to read German I gladly point to a number of books analyzing the Wehrmachtbericht historically. Besides the informational character of the Wehrmachtbericht (indeed this is POV) it served another purpose, which from my point of view justifies its presence in the article. The Wehrmachtbericht also was an award similar to a presidential citation. To be mentioned in the Wehrmachtbericht was considered similar in value to having been awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross. I therefore agree that a health warning is needed but I still think that it adds value to the article. MisterBee1966 ( talk) 19:12, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
This is being referenced several times in the article as a source for the flawed, poor etc. protection of the class. This however appears to be a primary source that cannot be verified. An earlier admirality report can be found with google dated from 1939, which however does not make any of the statements referenced regarding the protection qualities of this class of warship, in fact it does not give any figures regarding the 'Tirpitz' battleships, and makes clear in the foreword that all figures given for foreign warships are intelligence estimates. It appears that these statements sourced by the 'Admirality report' are from primary sources, which are unverifiable, those that found are admittadly unreliable, and are at odds with the referenced statements in the article. I also feel it is inappropriate to discuss in great the tech. details of the ship class lenghts in the article about an indvidual ship of the class. If no verifiable reference can be given to the 'Admirality report' that would support the statements referenced to them, these statements need and will be removed. There is enough silliness in these articles already (the Baden 'origin', the alleged positioning of the FC centre above the armored deck etc.) Kurfürst ( talk) 21:18, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
<deindent> Well, its always nice to be accused of making references up. As to the report itself, no, I don't know where my rather tatty copy came from, it has no acquisition stamps on it, but it was part of a batch of material from one of the American national naval collections (I don't know which). A little bird tells me the National Record Archives in Kew in London also has it, the modern reference number is ADM 239/269 (I think, the title is correct). I expect I can find refs in books that say the same thing, as I'm sure Tony Preston has plenty to say on the matter. As to whether technical details about the ship should be included here or in the class article, I have no strong feeling either way, but it should be consistent, both for criticism and praise.
For my reference here is the disputed para
While Bismarck was a powerful ship, the long hiatus in German capital ship building from 1919 until 1933 led to a conservative design that was flawed [1] and outmoded. [2] The ship's design borrowed from the design of the World War I Bayern class battleships, [2] as the ship was completed with some of her vitals above her armoured belt. [3] This particular weakness left many communication systems, including her main damage control centre and foretop fire control director, open to destruction [4] which contributed to her relatively rapid silencing in her final engagement. Three features the designs had in common were their armament, three-shaft propulsion plant [5] and the armour layout. [6]
Greglocock ( talk) 06:01, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
I agree that there is a danger of an overlap in content between this article and the Class article. Perhaps rather than going into all the technical details we should instead have a section 'Design features that contributed to her demise' (or preferably something better). This could then include a main link to the appropriate section in the Class article, and then a quick summary of the flaws, ie short range, inadequate AA, out of date radar, essential services above main armour deck and weak stern. Greglocock ( talk) 23:17, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
I would propose revising the sentence in the "Design" section that refers to the Treaty of Versailles. The 35,000 tons refers to the provisions of the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922 and the Anglo-German Naval Agreement (1935) that allowed Germany to build up to five 35K tons BBs. The Versailles reference, on the other hand, relates only to the limit of 10K tons on any German capital ship; therefore it's not that helpful IMHO. Any comments? bigpad 18:35, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
1). Bismarck is undoubtly the most famous battleship of all time if looked at the vast number of books written about het last voyage (over 100)and the number of hits at internet for Bismarck is highest of all battleships. I don't clame Bismarck is the best battleship. Most articles point at the "better" US-battleships, notably the Iowa's, the "huge and strong" Yamato's or the equallly good Richelieu.
2). At 9.02 2 hits crippled Bismarck fatally in her last fight: one of Rodney between turrets Anton and Bruno puting them both out of action and one 8 inch hit on the main gun director on top of the conning tower blow it away!!
3). High casualty hits came about 10.00 when Rodney fired at point blank close range.
4). Over 1000 to 1200 of her crew jumped into the icecold water. The other were killed in their gun turrets. in the bridge/connuing tower or because of some penetration hits around 10.00. The admiral bridge suffered no single hit.
5). Bismarck was designed to withstand torpedo damage. Together with her high degree of subdivision means that she was almost unsinkable!!! After so many hits he hull showed no torpedodamage (except om the rudder); only 4 penetartions of the vertical armour belt and NO penetrations of the main armor deck (horizontal. So the whole British fleet could not sink Bismarck but was able to put her out of the fight. In this respect the Bismarck was (far?) superior to the battleships of other nations. The poor welding of the joints of the the armour belt on the Yamato's together with her less subdivision meant that the Yamato's were vulnerable to torpedo damage. The weak roof armor on the 15 cm turrets was also a very vulnerable spot in her defense against bomb attacks. The Iowa's certainly also have weak spots, but these are seldom described or documented.
6). Bismarck was able to fire most of her shells on her last voyage.
7). There are striking resemblances between the hunt after the Bismarck and the Scharnhorst. Both sinkings were caused by 1-2 lucky hits (Bismarck on rudder and early hit between A and B turrets, Scharnhorst in Boiler room and both ship early in the battle lost their main rader/rangefinder).
8). Sources were Garzke & Dullin.
An anon has just added quite a few edits in, some of which are typo corrections or clarification that are fine, but its interspersed with OR. Anyone have the heart to wade through this and prune? Narson 01:18, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I can't disagree that the section could disappear without anyone losing too much sleep; but if criticisms of the ship's design are valid, and can be referenced, then the weasel words issue is secondary. I must apologise for these WWs but I wasn't aware that they extend to using "it's possible.., etc." I thought WW means avoiding superlatives and pejorative terms. bigpad 13:44, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
The "Bismarck fanboys" must be delighted that a huge non-fan like you has referenced an unreferenced section... bigpad 11:36, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
I was surprised that there wasn't an image for this article, or really any in the commons, so I made one. Though most of the pictures I have seen are fuzzy and descriptions a bit vague, I tried to color the model as it would have appeared when fighting HMS Hood. Anynobody 05:37, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
The Drawing in the Infobox is awful. The form of the hull ist false, the proportions ist false (turrets to large), the bow is false ....-- WerWil ( talk) 09:11, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Flat Bottom: Its right, that you might see it that wayin some near Perspective, but it ist missleeding to show it in a Drawing like this, especially in the view form the Bow it looks as if the Bismarck had a "Pear-shaped" bottom.
Bow Bulk: The Ship never had a Bulk to the Front. The only thing was an extension to the sides in the "Keel line". The Picture you have linked shows the Situation whith Perpendicularly bow which seems to have a Curvature to the front but it was straight. In 1939 the Bismarck got a so called "Atlantik Bow" like on the Drawings I have linked (whith no bulk to the front).
Buckles: I meant the not continous Line in plan view.
--
WerWil (
talk) 12:02, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't the Bismarck have a single rudder? Im not sure what ship the 3D model is but its not the Bismarck. Single rudder was one of the main reasons that "a hit by a single torpedo jammed Bismarck's rudder and steering gear." and in extension one of the reasons for the ships sinking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.248.105.192 ( talk) 16:34, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
The article mentions tons. Are these long or short? J ɪ m p 23:54, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
The article about the Anglo-German Naval Agreement never mentions the 35,000 ton single-ship limitation, concentrating on the 35:100 Kriegsmarine/Royal Navy ratio. Could anyone source the "Anglo-German Naval Agreement (1935) that allowed Germany to build up to five 35,000-ton battleships" part? -- Saaska ( talk) 05:43, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Source is needed for Huge dents showed that the 14 inch (356 mm) shells fired by the King George V bounced off the German belt, since a given reference [2] (a terrific analysis indeed), don't give such information. Besides, it is doubtful, for Bismarck's belt was relatively thin, as the mentioned article explains. And belt was no Wotan type armour, but KC n/A. Pibwl ←« 19:15, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
"Her range of weaponry could easily decimate any convoy she encountered."
Well, Scheer managed to sink 5 out of 38 ships of HX.84, which is a decimation at least, so I expect Bismarck could do as well; but I think you probably mean something else.
Or is it irony?
Xyl 54 (
talk) 17:29, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I see someone had the sense to remove the silly unreferenced one in a million claim. Bis's stern was especially susceptible to damage because her armor scheme was below par in that area, and the three shaft layout weakens the keel at the stern. Quite what the probability of a torpedo launched from behind (from memory) hitting the stern is, I'm not sure, 30% at a guess, sideways on it is what, 5% or so, if we count the stern as being from the screws rearward? So one in a million is more like one in twenty. All OR of course. Another way of looking at it would be to review all hits by torpedoes on BBs and see how many hit the stern. If you are that interested. Greg Locock ( talk) 19:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Whilst it is customary for ships to be referred to as female, in the case of the Bismarck I'm not sure this is entirely appropriate. The captain and crew of the ship are known to have thought of the ship as masculine. -- LiamE ( talk) 14:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC) I've been having a bit of a look for a good source on this, not found one yet but have found plenty of discussion on the point. At the moment the german wiki article uses she so barring a great source being turned up no changes are necessary. Anyone got a decent book mentioning this? -- LiamE ( talk) 15:51, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I've noticed that in the references section, about half of the list is just a bibliography, not inline citations, which should be the correct format. So for those who have the books listed, if you have the time, can you at least pick one or two things that can be sourced to those books? It would also be good if anyone is considering working this article to a higher quality rating. Thanks. Parsecboy ( talk) 14:21, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
The CG image, as good as it is, should not really be in the main picture slot. This should be reserved for a real war time picture. I think perhaps a more suitable place is in the the "breakout" section. Dapi89 ( talk) 13:09, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand why not. It is an image taken more than 50 years ago. I wish Admin's would just leave it alone. I still would oppose the use of graphics in a slot designed for a photographic image. Hence I promoted another image I have uploaded (some time ago) there instead. Dapi89 ( talk) 18:00, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
This work is copyrighted and unlicensed. It does not fall into one of the blanket acceptable non-free content categories listed at Wikipedia:Non-free content#Acceptable images or Wikipedia:Non-free content#Acceptable audio clips. However, it is believed that the use of this work in the article "[[{{{1}}}]]" :
qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law. Any other uses of this image, on Wikipedia or elsewhere, may be copyright infringement. See Wikipedia:Non-free content and Wikipedia:Copyrights.
To the uploader: this tag is not a sufficient claim of fair use. You must also include the source of the work, all available copyright information, and a detailed non-free use rationale.
There are articles rated GA that use images in this way. I would also say your image is not the best either is it. It is not an exact depiction therefore not appropriate for a lead image. By the way I have corrected the image information to be inline with these other articles. You may want to check out the Hans-Joachim Marseille article. Dapi89 ( talk) 11:20, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I did use the one you suggest, (which is one I uploaded some time ago) and it was deleted by Anynobody Dapi89 ( talk) 14:32, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I disagree on a number of points, but as a I have niether the energy, time or inclination to keep changing it I am just going to leave it as it is. I can't guarantee somebody else will not remove it. Dapi89 ( talk) 09:37, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
After reading this letter from www.bismarck-class.dk, I decided changes were in order. Specifically making sure the gun barrels/turret tops are dark gray, the aft wave is retained and the dark portions at each end just ahead/behind the waves. Anynobody 04:06, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Final battle from www.bismarck-class.dk(for easy access)
Our section says The third survey found no underwater penetrations of the ship's fully-armoured citadel and only four direct hit holes on it above the waterline, all of them on one side, as delivered by Rodney's 16 inch (406 mm) guns. Huge dents showed that the 14 inch (356 mm) shells fired by King George V bounced off the German belt armour What's the source for this? KGV wasn't in a position to hit Bismarck's belt so much as her deck given the distance between KGV and the German ship. www.bismarck-class.dk says KGV was firing from 20,000 (21,872 yards) to 11,000 meters (12,029 yards) meaning her shots would have been plunging and therefore coming from above. Rodney got much closer, 3,600 meters (3,937 yards) meaning for a while her shots were more like direct fire, and would have been more likely to hit the belt. It's difficult to imagine 14" shells simply bouncing off (exploding, causing damage, but not penetrating sounds more accurate), but next to impossible to imagine 16" shells doing that.
Anynobody 03:22, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
(moved from my talk page)
Hi, please do not amend the text that says "lost" to "sank". This issue is well discussed in the Talk section and "lost", the normal word in English for a ship that goes under the waves, is the best compromise after an extensive debate. "Sank" invites questions as to who sunk it, which is disputed. Thanks, bigpad ( talk) 11:47, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- Please don't take this the wrong way but I'm going to move this to the article's talk page and respond there, this way anyone not watching my page can participate. Anynobody 03:17, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
The reason I changed it from lost to sunk is two-fold.
First because other ships here are listed as sunk, like the
Tirpitz or
Yorktown and the ship isn't exactly lost since Ballard found it.
Second the section it references, Controversy, also says it sunk. The controversy is over whether the sinking was caused by German scuttling it or British damage. Either way, Bismarck sank.
Anynobody 03:26, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree with this. I had opted for this earlier, but Bigpad reverted it. The logic is sound. To help I have renamed the "Controversy" section to Controversy over the cause of the sinking. This should make it crystal clear. Dapi89 ( talk) 09:42, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
"Sunk" means it was deliberate rather than accidental, in this case either British attacks or German scuttling; it doesn’t matter which. "Lost" is a word used by the owner of an object to indicate that it has disappeared without consent or intention. It is a sentimental expression and although it might be appropriate for a national newspaper (eg. the Volkischer Beobachter), it is not appropriate for Wikipedia. Wiki-Ed ( talk) 15:55, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Ship | Fate | Cause |
---|---|---|
Kirishima | Sunk | Similar controversy exists over this ship. Many say it was scuttled by the crew, though USS Washington's 16" shells might have had something to do with it too. |
USS Yorktown | Sunk | Combination of bombs, aerial and submarine torpedoes |
USS Cyclops | Lost | ??? |
USS America | Sunk | Expended as target |
USS Ranger | Scrapped | ---- |
Bismarck | Sunk | Either by British shells and torpedoes or scuttled by crew |
Irrelevant. We're not discussing that. Scuttling = sunk; Torpedoed = sunk; Bombed = sunk. Crashed into a rock and capsized without trace during a storm = lost. Wiki-Ed ( talk) 12:04, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
All this debate is Nitpicking. The crux of the matter is Bismarck sank! This doesn't imply anything other than it went under the waves. I think the controversy of sinking section tells the reader all they need to know. What is editors problem with it reading "sank", rather than "'lost" or "sunk"!!!?. Dapi89 ( talk) 14:40, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Wiki-Ed: Your summary is close to what I mean, but lost actually means we dunno what happened except that a ship left somewhere, never arrived at its destination, and has never been seen/heard from again. Crashed into a rock and capsized without trace during a storm... implies we know it grounded and capsized, whereas a truly lost ship hasn't been found to know that's what happened to it. (Don't get me wrong, I'm betting several lost ships met exactly that fate but I can't collect on any bets till the lost ship is found :)
Narson:You wouldn't say a scuttled ship sunk, you would say it was scuttled, that I think is the issue (That saying 'Sunk' implies not scuttled). Actually one doesn't need to say scuttled ship sunk unless they wanted to say the same thing in a different way. Scuttling is the act of letting in water in until the ship sinks. So saying the scuttled ship sunk is needlessly redundant.
To assume sunk only has the most dogmatic literal meaning is, frankly, naive. I can understand why it might seem that way, but using consistent terms between our articles isn't naive or dogmatic. Here when we say a ship is lost, the word lost means exactly that, the ship failed to return making its whereabouts and fate unknown. We know what happened to Bismarck, it sank, we don't know how it sank, whether by damage or scuttling.
Parsecboy : Narson is correct; in a naval warfare context, "sunk" implies that the ship was sunk by enemy action. Do you have a source for that assertion? I've never seen a naval source say that being "sunk" implied anything but a ship losing buoyancy. Can you cite some sources that say being sunk implies enemy action? Moreover to refute this assertion, at least as far as Wikipedia goes, check out Mutsu which was sunk by internal explosion while anchored. The allies didn't attack it, so the logic of sunk meaning by enemy action looks questionable in light of this. (There were others which sunk for non-combat reasons, a British carrier blew up around 1940, Halsey lost several smaller ships to a couple of typhoons, etc. )
The bottom line is that in disputes like this only cited sources calling the ship "Lost" can justify going against our conventions. Unlikely as it sounds, a person who's never heard of Bismarck could be confused by us saying it's lost when we know that it sunk . Anynobody 02:44, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
I did note that, and perhaps you'll note that what I've been putting here is sunk, cause disputed because the ship sunk, but whether it sank because of scuttling or damage is disputed. Anynobody 21:43, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
(Also moved from my talk page:) Please stop edit-warring on the article, especially since there is a valid discussion going on. You're not helping the situation by repeatedly altering the infobox. You're on the verge of being disruptive. Please let the discussion run its course. Parsecboy ( talk) 03:05, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Parsecboy I've laid out several good reasons why the infobox should say sunk,
bigpad if ...'being sunk'...does indeed imply action on someone esle's [sic] part how do you explain Titanic, Monitor, and Oceanos being sunk? Also, sunk is actually the past participle of sink and the correct verb Anynobody 21:40, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
bigpad please answer these questions to understand my point:(Bearing in mind that in order to become a "sunken wreck" Titanic had to first be sunk)
1) Scuttling a ship means its crew sunk it? (Yes or no)
2) Did Bismarck sink? (Yes or no)
3) Is there a dispute about what caused it to sink? (Yes or no)
4) How does saying the cause of Bismarck's sinking is disputed favor one side or another? (On to the English lesson, can you cite anything to support your contention as I did mine?)
Parsecboy you said this on my talk page but I think it's more appropriate to discuss here: a ship was sunk at such and such a time and such and such a place during wartime implies that the ship was sunk in combat. According to who? Without a citation it's according to you;
OPNAV 29-P1000 (Revised APRIL 1949) U.S. Navy Abbreviations of World War II
You must be locked into some kind of emotional cycle because while claiming sunk implies enemy action you acknowledge that a ship can indeed be sunk during wartime without enemy action so long as there is an explanation:
Mutsu Sunk by internal explosion
I hate to be so blunt about it, but let's assume you are right about the word sunk during wartime implying enemy action, you do realize that it still doesn't say how it was sunk, whether by;
torpedoes, naval gunfire, floating mine, aerial bombs, aerial gunfire, depth charges, a collision, scuttling, limpit mines, etc.
In short here are the arguments as I see them, if I get yours wrong please correct it:
Editor | Sunk/lost? | Article should say: | Evidence |
---|---|---|---|
Anynobody | Sunk | Sunk May 27, 1941 cause disputed | Ships sink, separate but related is what causes them to sink. Mutsu was sunk by an internal explosion Roma was sunk by Fritz X bombs Bismarck was sunk but the cause is disputed. |
Parsecboy | Lost | Lost May 27, 1941 | A ship sunk during wartime is assumed to have been the victim of enemy action. citation needed |
Gatoclass | Sunk | Sunk or scuttled May 27, 1941 | (Because a scuttled ship doesn't sink/isn't sunk?) |
On top of this, here's the final nail in "lost"'s coffin; The only sources I can find which describe ships as being lost are those describing their own ships. For example the US Navy had three types of "loss" described in OPNAV 29-P1000 (Revised APRIL 1949) U.S. Navy Abbreviations of World War II, so if we say Bismarck was lost, we're assuming the Nazi POV because whether scuttled or sunk by gunfire there is no way the British would say it was lost from their POV because they never "had" it. Anynobody 02:28, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I did indeed see your suggestion earlier Parsecboy but like saying the ship is lost, no other articles on here describe a ship in similar circumstances as being "neutralised" or "destroyed". Even ships which blew up, like Hood which could also be said to have been destroyed.
Narson My point is that had a US battleship been sunk, by whatever cause, the US Navy would've said the ship was "lost" because it can no longer be used. If we say Bismarck was "lost" meaning the same thing, the article immediately assumes the German POV because the British certainly didn't consider Bismarck lost did they? Anynobody 08:04, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I prefer to answer outstanding concerns because I hate it when I'm left without answers to my questions. ...why not use one of many other euphamisms? is a fair question which I think can be answered. There are actually several reasons for this;
In summary, from a third party perspective, saying a ship sunk implies nothing beyond that. (The British may or may not mean "we sunk it" when they say sunk but we're not writing from their perspective anymore than we are the Germans) Anynobody 01:58, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
This is indeed the case. Hans Zimmermann, a boiler room engineer, confirms this did happen. I fail to see any reason he would lie. Dapi89 ( talk) 21:17, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
BTW, he did survive...just incase you were wondering whether Ballard could communicate with the dead :) Dapi89 ( talk) 21:18, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
(Moved from my talk page)
I'm not saying my version must be completely accepted, but I wrote it to correct the "clunky" language of the original, so I'm going to restore my version. Rather than reverting it please build on it, because sentences like this:Bismarck's fame came from the Battle of the Denmark Strait in May 1941 (in which the battlecruiser HMS Hood, flagship and pride of the Royal Navy, was sunk), from Churchill's subsequent order to "Sink the Bismarck",[1] and from the relentless pursuit by the Royal Navy that ended with her loss only three days later. Will ensure this article never gets even good status let alone featured. Anynobody 23:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
We really ought to mention the Swordfish torpedo hit in the lead, I've seen more than one source describe this as what sealed Bismarck's fate as it might have escaped otherwise. Anynobody 00:34, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
(Moved from my talk page)
I had not changed this, but have edited most other sections. Dapi89 (talk) 01:20, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
That's cool Dapi89, feel free to edit the lead too :) I was actually talking to bigpad since he/she reverted my proposal. The lead is an important subject so I want to make sure both regular editors in addition to anyone new to this article who has an opinion can voice it. Anynobody 01:34, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I have (I was the IP) reverted the edits by this user that were totally unconstructive. As you can see he removed a citation and then proceeded to revert the information related to A.Schneider - the gunnery officer who was awarded the Knight's Cross for his part in the sinking of the Hood and was then killed by a 8 inch shell from HMS Norfolk. I would deem this important as it had such an impact on Bismarck's fate. Also "grammar" corrections were poor/pointless. Dapi89 ( talk) 13:01, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
When a deletion is made, as you know as a reverter of vandalism, without an explanation it could be regarded as vandalism. I did not say it was so. As I (or any other editor could have) read it, you were contesting the information without explanation. Having looked at the edit history none of the grammar corrections such as "until until" were made in your initial edits, which is what this complaint was about. Dapi89 ( talk) 15:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
The German Wiki states that on the morning of 27 May Bismarck tried to evacuate the ships log book via plane. This failed because the catapults were damaged. The planes, already fueled, had to be dropped into the sea to avoid additional fires resulting from the aircraft fuel igniting. This seems notable, unfortunately this is not referenced. MisterBee1966 ( talk) 13:48, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Done. Dapi89 ( talk) 18:34, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I know this has been discussed before, but there's a line in the "Background" section that bothers me. It says that Bismarck achieved a top speed of 30.1 knots during trials, an impressive speed when set against any comparable British battleship. The KGVs had a top speed of 28 knots; I don't think a knot or two faster is really all that impressive. Also consider that Bismarck's other contemporary opponent Richelieu also had a rated top speed of 30 knots. In any case, I don't think we need to have peacock terms in the article. One last questionn; the infobox has 30.8 knots as the top speed. What's the discrepancy here? Can anyone shed some light on that? Thanks. Parsecboy ( talk) 13:05, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
It was actually 31.1 achieved on its trials. So it is 3.1 knots faster. I wonder though, is this really significant? Richelieu was in Vichy hands at this point, and it did not fall into Allied hands (or become operational in their cause) until long after Bismarck had gone, so is itreally worth comparing, as they did not and were unlikely to see action against one another. I would say in a chase though 3.1 knots is significant, no? Dapi89 ( talk) 15:43, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
I thnk much too less emphazies is given to the speed of Bismark. It was the entire philosophie of Der Kriegsmarine to, so to speak, cap off the wast bulk of British capital ships by having the abillity to out run them. Having an entire section devoted to some amature speculating on the alleged design flaws, but not underlining the overridding design feature of being able to out run most if not all the opposition, is strange.
85.82.169.61 (
talk) 11:07, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Chesneau's book has a photograph of Hood actaully in the process of blowing up. The pic is taken from Prinz Eugen. It shows Norfolk on the far left, Prince of Wales in the centre, and on the fire right an upward flash can be seen; Hood blowing up. This is not the other well known photograph of Hood just after the explosion, with a pall of smoke hanging on the horizon, but the actual moment of the explosion. Could this be used in the article? Dapi89 ( talk) 15:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
BTW, I even if the answer is no, then I could upload it onto the talk page and the rest of you could have a quick look here...before it is deleted. Dapi89 ( talk) 16:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
It does. On the right, it is clearly Hood, while in the centre PoW can be seen (or rather the funnel exhaust). On the left is another plume of smoke. This is exhaust smoke, the author then says this is "presumably Nolfolk". It could have been Sulfolk but due to the positioning it has to Nolfolk. Dapi89 ( talk) 17:59, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
The pic is plastered over two pages, so the pages mess the middle of the picture up, but the important stuff is visible. The picture was taken from the 'Eugen by Gerhard Koop. Okay, here it is Dapi89 ( talk) 19:46, 24 March 2008 (UTC):
I thought long and hard about that but it doesn't make sense. It seems strange that this would be after Hood sunk. You can see clearly the upward flash. There is no smoke yet, so this is at the moment of explosion. Koop said this was first, the pall of smoke pic, which appears on the next page, was after this one. Chesnau makes that clear. Dapi89 ( talk) 20:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I noticed under the "sources" section above that Bigpad is wondering whether an increase in rating will occur after recent edits. Having experienced getting similar articles (like the Hans-Joachim Marseille article) to GA status, I can say that the lead in the article needs a considerable expansion. I remember also that a citation is needed for every paragraph at least, especially where figures and quotes are concerned. Dapi89 ( talk) 16:32, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
These two quotes from the main text seem to disagree
"Only two hits fully penetrating the main armour were located. These holes were on the starboard side, suggesting that they were 16-inch shells from Rodney. Two other penetrations above the main armour belt were found on the port side"
"The third survey found no underwater penetrations of the ship's fully-armoured citadel and only four direct hit holes on it above the waterline, all of them on one side"
If i have misunderstood please make the text clearer.
As the second survey seemed to be mainly trying to rubbish the first survey i feel its finding are going to need to be taken with a pinch of salt. Either way the findings of either dive without evidence are simply conjecture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sams37 ( talk • contribs) 03:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Holes don't necessarily = full penetration. I take the point the text is confusing. I'll sort this out. According to Ballard's sortie, the port side took the heaviest punishment due to Rodney and King George. Ballard records:
None of these holes can be said to have defeated Bismarck's armour fully, Ballard claims. Dapi89 ( talk) 20:38, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for that, also if you have time the article on KGV herself is a little light, i would update it but i am sure almost anyone else would do a better job!
Sams37 (
talk) 23:39, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks
Nonsense! Go ahead! Dapi89 ( talk) 20:44, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Doea anyone else feel that it's overkill to have a "namesake" section in the above, as it's made clear very near the start of the article who the ship was named after? If it's appropriate, that's fine if the template is to change for all warships. bigpad ( talk) 18:49, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Someone seems to be implying that it was unusual for the Admiralty to hold an inquiry after the loss of a ship. I may be wrong(I'm not), but I believe that the RN holds an inquiry if a captain GROUNDS his ship, never mind gets it sunked, scuttled in the light of the inevitable, lostipoos or whatever euphemism we are using today. Hence I pulled the mention of an inquiry. I also de-emotionalised some other wording. Greg Locock ( talk) 13:02, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Where in the article is Leach accused of cowardice? If you read it again, it says the withdrawal from the line of battle was "an action almost unknown in the Royal Navy", which is true and in praise of the RN's history. bigpad ( talk) 14:46, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
(This was removed; why? am I not allowed to say anything here?
Xyl 54 (
talk) 12:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC))
And what’s this? Bismarck wasn't sunk, she was lost? Is this a german thing? Is this some variation on the
stab in the back legend? ("you didn’t sink her, we sank her ourselves; we didn’t need to, but we had another one at home, so…")
Do we have the same whining about the Hood? That she wasn’t primarily a battleship, Or she was hit by a million to one shot, Or, it wasn’t the Germans who sank her, it was all those British shells going off in the magazine?
It makes me tired!
Are you saying she didn’t really sink? Or that she would have escaped under cover of darkness? Or she was just luring them in close, in order to finish them?<br?>
And yet, when the boot's on the other foot...
To take one of a hundred examples, U-108 torpedoed Ruckinge, in December 1941; she was abandoned, and dispatched later by HMS Samphire. Do the German navy’s historians forego the credit for the sinking because of this?
Do
they
Hell!
I have no expectation of changing this, seeing as how it's been thrashed out already, but I think it's worth illustrating the hypocrisy, n'est ce pas?
Xyl 54 (
talk) 11:44, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
(section restored. Xyl 54 ( talk) 12:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
This:-
"This formidable ship, the largest warship then commissioned, was intended primarily as a
commerce raider"
does need addressing. It's been sitting here, and on the other pages, for a while now, completely unsubstantiated.
It smacks of hindsight: whatever she was used for, my reading is that Hitler's intention was for a big-ship navy to challenge the French and British at sea. So this looks like an excuse to me.
Anyway, it’s a pretty unflattering claim:
Rogge (who ought to know) said the measure of a commerce raiders success was the number of ships she sank, and the time she remained at large to be a threat. By this criteria Bismarck, which never even sighted a merchant ship (let alone sank one) and was at large about a week, was the most unsuccessful commerce raider of the war. You’d be better off sticking with her being a battle ship; she was more successful at that.
Xyl 54 (
talk) 11:58, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
the Jackson refs seem to be malformed, I can't actually find the name of the book. The counterpoint about the three shafts "However the only two features the designs had in common were their armament and three-shaft propulsion plant[" is drivel, by the way. Overlay Baden and Bis. The similarities are striking. I don't know why someone keeps obsessing about Mackensen, there is very little commonality to my eye. preston P105 certainly does not support this argument - he says M was the model for Scharnhorst, as Baden was the model for Bis. I shall edit accordingly Greg Locock ( talk) 13:47, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I have reverted. You are going to have to find at least another source that refutes Jackson. He was a naval navigator, and not a "TV producer", he is a published historian with over 80 works to his name on Naval matters. Dapi89 ( talk) 22:21, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Citations can be added on name, year, and page, then traced to the references/bibliography. I don't "like" that passage, I am not here to put in or defend my own or Jacksons point of view, I don't have an agenda, all I'm interested in is what is fact. There are editors who are capable of being neutral. I'm just asking, that if authors take issue with Jackson, then we can cite them, and snub him. I'll let you know exactly what he says when I dig out the book again. Dapi89 ( talk) 23:27, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, the one and the same. Here's what Jackson has to say:
It has often been claimed that the design of the two battleships [referring of course to Tirpitz as well] was based on that of the Baden Class of World War I, laid down in 1916 as a reply to the British Queen Elizabeth Class. In fact, the only design features the two classes had in common were their armament, comprising eight 38cm (15in) guns in four twin turrets, and a three-shaft propulsion plant. It is more accurate to say that the two warships were impoved and enlarged versions of the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau, many of whose features they incorporated
I would not oppose Greg Locock's latest revision, as I don't have Preston, so I don't know what he says, or whether it does conflict with Jackson. Perhaps Jacksons view is distorted, perhaps its his own opinion, rather than an accurate piece of research. Dapi89 ( talk) 12:30, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
The main-battery arrangement closely resembled that of the Baden and Bayern of World War I. This development has resulted in some speculation that the Bismarck-class battleships were mere copies of these older ships. This is false; the new ships had to be faster, and have more protection, range, and gunpower. The percentages allocated to armor protection, propulsion, and armament were not the same. The triple-shaft arrangement and the distribution of the main armament and its caliber were the same, but these were the only similarities. [5]
I guess from what Jackson is saying, the Bismarck took more from the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau, that were based on Mackensen. Therefore, it does not share much with the Baden Class. Dapi89 ( talk) 12:52, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Why is this section here?
If it’s a primary source to back up some statement it should be listed in the sources section, not printed out in full: But it doesn’t even seem to be that. We don’t do this for any other source, so we shouldn’t for this either. And it can hardly claim to be neutral, can it? What’s next, the transcript of some propaganda broadcast for the period?
And it’s hardly accurate; Bismarck didn’t “Shoot down shot down five British aircraft on the evening of May 24”; nor did she “sink an attacking enemy destroyer on the night of May 27 and shoot up another until it burned”; in fact she didn’t score any hits at all, a fact that’s conspicuously absent in the account of the action.
I think it should be deleted.
Xyl 54 (
talk) 11:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree. I think leaving the table in and leaving a single line above it to point out the fog of war mistakes, is the best way to go. Dapi89 ( talk) 17:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
It should be noted that Bismarck did hit a number of the enemy destroyers, I cited it a while ago in the article. Dapi89 ( talk) 17:53, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
The night action, as the article says. Only superficial damage was caused (perhaps the seaman who lost his hand would disagree). Dapi89 ( talk) 17:30, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Since I am the one to have added the text from the Wehrmachtbericht in the first place I find it appropriate to comment on the issue. The Wehrmachtbericht served multiple purposes. Yes, it was propaganda but its main purpose was to inform the German people and Axis allies on the proceedings of the war without jeopardizing the war effort or revealing secrets. In the beginning of the war it was quite factual and as the tide of war turned against Germany it became very selective to say the least. If anyone is interested and is able to read German I gladly point to a number of books analyzing the Wehrmachtbericht historically. Besides the informational character of the Wehrmachtbericht (indeed this is POV) it served another purpose, which from my point of view justifies its presence in the article. The Wehrmachtbericht also was an award similar to a presidential citation. To be mentioned in the Wehrmachtbericht was considered similar in value to having been awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross. I therefore agree that a health warning is needed but I still think that it adds value to the article. MisterBee1966 ( talk) 19:12, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
This is being referenced several times in the article as a source for the flawed, poor etc. protection of the class. This however appears to be a primary source that cannot be verified. An earlier admirality report can be found with google dated from 1939, which however does not make any of the statements referenced regarding the protection qualities of this class of warship, in fact it does not give any figures regarding the 'Tirpitz' battleships, and makes clear in the foreword that all figures given for foreign warships are intelligence estimates. It appears that these statements sourced by the 'Admirality report' are from primary sources, which are unverifiable, those that found are admittadly unreliable, and are at odds with the referenced statements in the article. I also feel it is inappropriate to discuss in great the tech. details of the ship class lenghts in the article about an indvidual ship of the class. If no verifiable reference can be given to the 'Admirality report' that would support the statements referenced to them, these statements need and will be removed. There is enough silliness in these articles already (the Baden 'origin', the alleged positioning of the FC centre above the armored deck etc.) Kurfürst ( talk) 21:18, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
<deindent> Well, its always nice to be accused of making references up. As to the report itself, no, I don't know where my rather tatty copy came from, it has no acquisition stamps on it, but it was part of a batch of material from one of the American national naval collections (I don't know which). A little bird tells me the National Record Archives in Kew in London also has it, the modern reference number is ADM 239/269 (I think, the title is correct). I expect I can find refs in books that say the same thing, as I'm sure Tony Preston has plenty to say on the matter. As to whether technical details about the ship should be included here or in the class article, I have no strong feeling either way, but it should be consistent, both for criticism and praise.
For my reference here is the disputed para
While Bismarck was a powerful ship, the long hiatus in German capital ship building from 1919 until 1933 led to a conservative design that was flawed [1] and outmoded. [2] The ship's design borrowed from the design of the World War I Bayern class battleships, [2] as the ship was completed with some of her vitals above her armoured belt. [3] This particular weakness left many communication systems, including her main damage control centre and foretop fire control director, open to destruction [4] which contributed to her relatively rapid silencing in her final engagement. Three features the designs had in common were their armament, three-shaft propulsion plant [5] and the armour layout. [6]
Greglocock ( talk) 06:01, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
I agree that there is a danger of an overlap in content between this article and the Class article. Perhaps rather than going into all the technical details we should instead have a section 'Design features that contributed to her demise' (or preferably something better). This could then include a main link to the appropriate section in the Class article, and then a quick summary of the flaws, ie short range, inadequate AA, out of date radar, essential services above main armour deck and weak stern. Greglocock ( talk) 23:17, 27 April 2009 (UTC)