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I'm almost absolutely positive that the umlauts aren't alphabetised separately. -- Toby Bartels 04:10 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I don't think think that the article's completely useless. It's got stuff about phonebooks in it, for example. ^_^ -- Toby Bartels 08:14 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)
German most certainly counts ä, ö, ü, and ß as separate letters. Compare the German page on the same topic, which is correct in this respect: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsches_Alphabet
This page therefore needs to be corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.28.127.169 ( talk) 12:07, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
This page definitely contains a lot of mistakes. There is a German-alphabet and it does consist of 30 letters. Also every educated person knows that fact. Please somebody has to correct this mess. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wirtschaftsingenieurstudent ( talk • contribs) 15:34, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
In the second phrase: "German uses letter-diacritic combinations (Ä/ä, Ö/ö, Ü/ü) using the umlaut", but Umlaut is a diacritic (the phonetic phenomenon). To be honest, all articles related with this term leads the reader to the same confusion. So, the phrase could be better if it was: "German uses letter-diacritic combinations (Ä/ä, Ö/ö, Ü/ü) knows as umlaut using the trema mark" 195.93.244.97 ( talk) 09:48, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
I do not understand the sentence Geographical names in particular are often required to be written with A, O, U plus e, in particular the word "required".
Does this mean "there are circumstances in which no geographical names with Umlauts are allowed"? I don't think so.
Or does it mean "there are geographical names with ae/oe/ue which are never written with umlauts"? That is certainly true (the Duden mentiones Oelsnitz and Oebisfelde), but this is true for many names, not only geographical ones. Goethe is never spelled with ö.
-- Austrian 22:19, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm afraid this page is trying to replicate much of the information that is already found under ß and Umlaut, and these articles are as comprehensive as this one can ever hope to be. I would like to suggest that we cut down the descriptions of the extra letters a little and concentrate on a comprehensive account of collation rules, pointing, of course, the inclined reader to the mentioned articles.
By the way, I removed the section about Fraktur. Fraktur is not an alphabet. It's a typeface which can be used to print the 30 letters described in this article just like an Antiqua typeface can. -- SKopp 01:48, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
I think this article is missing some information about the "common" letters. It (barely) explains the use of y, x, c, ß, etc., but doesn't explain how the other letters are used (e.g.: Are "f" and "v" two letters for the same sound? The first vowel of the name of the letter "y" corresponds to one of ä, ö, ü or is it a different vowel? Is it pronounced as its name implies?). The name of the letters may give some clue, but they are not enough. Some information from "German Phonology" may help to enrich this article.
"The letter x (Ix, /ɪks/) occurs almost only in loan words. Natively German words that are now pronounced with a /ks/ sound are usually written using chs or cks." - The 2 very common Expections are "Axt" (axe) and "Hexe" (witch) - e - bost at gmx dot de 217.82.118.125 07:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
How did the stereotype arise that German speakers, when speaking English, mispronounce the V like a W? I understand the W=V part, but how does V=W when clearly V=F? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.188.172.165 ( talk • contribs) 11:14, 5 October 2006 GMT+11.
Nothing is written about the letter combination, used in German, i.e.: ie, ei, sch, tsch, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Asker123 ( talk • contribs) 10:06, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Quote: "loan words from the French language spelling and diacritics are usually preserved"
This is not true. Indeed, the accents are usually not preserved, except for -é- in the end of a word: Café, Kommuniqué, etc. It is only in exceptions that an accent grave or circonflexe can occur.
From the article:
That is unclear. How does Herr Hoëcker pronounce his name? How is "Hoecker" pronounced (when not mispronounced "Höcker")? And how does Ferdinand Piëch pronounce his name? Piëch already has a Wikipedia article so might make a better/additional example; though of course there is no possible confusion with *Pïch. jnestorius( talk) 11:18, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I was researching some old genealogy and found Catholic church records spelling the town once known as "Weigelsdorf" (prior to WWII, when it was absorbed by Poland as Wigancice) as "Weygelsdorff", with two dots over the "y", like an umlaut. The era was the 1760s and earlier. (Starting in 1770 it had the modern spelling.) I looked here to see what it might have been. Can anyone update the page with information about that character, or how it was pronounced? ( Dbomp ( talk) 01:13, 16 March 2009 (UTC))
I’ve changed the introduction here; it started by saying the alphabet had 26 letters, then further down it has a section for four extra letters. That makes it a 30 letter alphabet by my reckoning. And the link to Latin-based alphabet describes German as an Extended Latin Alphabet, so I’ve added put that here too. I also thought the Latin letters should have their own section, too. Moonraker12 ( talk) 17:38, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
When listening to the extra letters, I noticed that the sounds were the same as in Tux Paint. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.190.123.204 ( talk) 17:24, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
If the Grammar is poor, improve, but not remove! And say, which grammar is poorer: English or German? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.220.33.64 ( talk) 16:54, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Can You help me to find those places in my addition, which are seriously bad in Grammar!
And of course, why have you removed some information which doesn't copy the other materials from this article? (For example, about using of ů and y?).
Answer my questions, please. (Because my another additions in Wikipedia were not removed because of grammar. And what about the same information? I think, my addition is able not only copy, but it also can broad the superscribed information).
P.S. Wikipedia is a f r e e Encyclopædia, so one must reconcile himself to encyclopedia's situation: if the article or addition isn't dangerous for sosciety, it can be typed here. I think, before any removing a large amount of people have to vote for or against the removing, like in any democratic sosciety. 62.220.33.64 ( talk)
16:23, 6 December 2010 (UTC)~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.220.33.64 ( talk)
I know that ∫ is not the long s, but my system can't represent this symbol, so I have no way and use the integral instead of it. You could improve it but your attitude to me isn't very friendly today and you prefered to delete that information from the main page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.220.33.64 ( talk) 16:20, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
And about ů - don't mix slavic and germanic languages, because that you've mentioned is more typical for Czech language than for German. May be you know that in modern Czech it is to be read as long u (written not in the beginning of the word where ú with accent is used). And what about German? For example, you can read some Renaissance documents. E.g., a document (circa 1542) about Carl V and his war in Algeria: <...>mit einer treffenlichen Armada/die Statt Algiero zů Erobern...<...> und so weiter!
Round and brevis were used as well as half-rounds and commas above u. You can find them if you want. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.220.33.64 ( talk) 16:39, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
62.220.33.64 ( talk) The justice is alive! Some pieces of information which I have proposed are written in the Note. Das ist nicht schlecht. Natuerlich! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.220.33.64 ( talk) 16:46, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
The turrets on the battleship Bismarck were named: Anton, Bruno, Caesar, Dora. The article makes no mention of the word Bruno being used as part of the WWII German spelling alphabet. Was this just an anomaly, or are there other instances of this? - Noha307 ( talk) 02:47, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
It is not true that most Germans think that there are 26 letters. If you compare this article to the German version of this article, you can see the section with the comment, that some say it’s 26, some say it’s 27 (including the ß) and some saying it’s 30 (including äöüß). 92.10.254.18 ( talk) 10:26, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
I think this page might need to be merged with German orthography. The only piece of information on this page that isn’t covered at German orthography is the spelling alphabet, which could easily be added as a column to the current tables in the alphabet section of the German orthography pages. 2001:BB6:B84C:CF00:15BB:56B7:7154:568D ( talk) 12:35, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
The traditional german spelling alphabet "postalische Buchstabiertafel" got replaced by "Deutsche Buchstabiertafel für Wirtschaft und Verwaltung" as can bee seen here. I did read the DIN 5009 which states that table reworked in 2020 was only symbolic to revert the changed the nazis made. In the official table, the spelling alphabet consits of german cities. 2A00:8A60:C010:1:0:0:1:10F2 ( talk) 15:45, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article has not yet been rated on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I'm almost absolutely positive that the umlauts aren't alphabetised separately. -- Toby Bartels 04:10 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I don't think think that the article's completely useless. It's got stuff about phonebooks in it, for example. ^_^ -- Toby Bartels 08:14 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)
German most certainly counts ä, ö, ü, and ß as separate letters. Compare the German page on the same topic, which is correct in this respect: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsches_Alphabet
This page therefore needs to be corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.28.127.169 ( talk) 12:07, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
This page definitely contains a lot of mistakes. There is a German-alphabet and it does consist of 30 letters. Also every educated person knows that fact. Please somebody has to correct this mess. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wirtschaftsingenieurstudent ( talk • contribs) 15:34, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
In the second phrase: "German uses letter-diacritic combinations (Ä/ä, Ö/ö, Ü/ü) using the umlaut", but Umlaut is a diacritic (the phonetic phenomenon). To be honest, all articles related with this term leads the reader to the same confusion. So, the phrase could be better if it was: "German uses letter-diacritic combinations (Ä/ä, Ö/ö, Ü/ü) knows as umlaut using the trema mark" 195.93.244.97 ( talk) 09:48, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
I do not understand the sentence Geographical names in particular are often required to be written with A, O, U plus e, in particular the word "required".
Does this mean "there are circumstances in which no geographical names with Umlauts are allowed"? I don't think so.
Or does it mean "there are geographical names with ae/oe/ue which are never written with umlauts"? That is certainly true (the Duden mentiones Oelsnitz and Oebisfelde), but this is true for many names, not only geographical ones. Goethe is never spelled with ö.
-- Austrian 22:19, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm afraid this page is trying to replicate much of the information that is already found under ß and Umlaut, and these articles are as comprehensive as this one can ever hope to be. I would like to suggest that we cut down the descriptions of the extra letters a little and concentrate on a comprehensive account of collation rules, pointing, of course, the inclined reader to the mentioned articles.
By the way, I removed the section about Fraktur. Fraktur is not an alphabet. It's a typeface which can be used to print the 30 letters described in this article just like an Antiqua typeface can. -- SKopp 01:48, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
I think this article is missing some information about the "common" letters. It (barely) explains the use of y, x, c, ß, etc., but doesn't explain how the other letters are used (e.g.: Are "f" and "v" two letters for the same sound? The first vowel of the name of the letter "y" corresponds to one of ä, ö, ü or is it a different vowel? Is it pronounced as its name implies?). The name of the letters may give some clue, but they are not enough. Some information from "German Phonology" may help to enrich this article.
"The letter x (Ix, /ɪks/) occurs almost only in loan words. Natively German words that are now pronounced with a /ks/ sound are usually written using chs or cks." - The 2 very common Expections are "Axt" (axe) and "Hexe" (witch) - e - bost at gmx dot de 217.82.118.125 07:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
How did the stereotype arise that German speakers, when speaking English, mispronounce the V like a W? I understand the W=V part, but how does V=W when clearly V=F? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.188.172.165 ( talk • contribs) 11:14, 5 October 2006 GMT+11.
Nothing is written about the letter combination, used in German, i.e.: ie, ei, sch, tsch, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Asker123 ( talk • contribs) 10:06, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Quote: "loan words from the French language spelling and diacritics are usually preserved"
This is not true. Indeed, the accents are usually not preserved, except for -é- in the end of a word: Café, Kommuniqué, etc. It is only in exceptions that an accent grave or circonflexe can occur.
From the article:
That is unclear. How does Herr Hoëcker pronounce his name? How is "Hoecker" pronounced (when not mispronounced "Höcker")? And how does Ferdinand Piëch pronounce his name? Piëch already has a Wikipedia article so might make a better/additional example; though of course there is no possible confusion with *Pïch. jnestorius( talk) 11:18, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I was researching some old genealogy and found Catholic church records spelling the town once known as "Weigelsdorf" (prior to WWII, when it was absorbed by Poland as Wigancice) as "Weygelsdorff", with two dots over the "y", like an umlaut. The era was the 1760s and earlier. (Starting in 1770 it had the modern spelling.) I looked here to see what it might have been. Can anyone update the page with information about that character, or how it was pronounced? ( Dbomp ( talk) 01:13, 16 March 2009 (UTC))
I’ve changed the introduction here; it started by saying the alphabet had 26 letters, then further down it has a section for four extra letters. That makes it a 30 letter alphabet by my reckoning. And the link to Latin-based alphabet describes German as an Extended Latin Alphabet, so I’ve added put that here too. I also thought the Latin letters should have their own section, too. Moonraker12 ( talk) 17:38, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
When listening to the extra letters, I noticed that the sounds were the same as in Tux Paint. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.190.123.204 ( talk) 17:24, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
If the Grammar is poor, improve, but not remove! And say, which grammar is poorer: English or German? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.220.33.64 ( talk) 16:54, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Can You help me to find those places in my addition, which are seriously bad in Grammar!
And of course, why have you removed some information which doesn't copy the other materials from this article? (For example, about using of ů and y?).
Answer my questions, please. (Because my another additions in Wikipedia were not removed because of grammar. And what about the same information? I think, my addition is able not only copy, but it also can broad the superscribed information).
P.S. Wikipedia is a f r e e Encyclopædia, so one must reconcile himself to encyclopedia's situation: if the article or addition isn't dangerous for sosciety, it can be typed here. I think, before any removing a large amount of people have to vote for or against the removing, like in any democratic sosciety. 62.220.33.64 ( talk)
16:23, 6 December 2010 (UTC)~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.220.33.64 ( talk)
I know that ∫ is not the long s, but my system can't represent this symbol, so I have no way and use the integral instead of it. You could improve it but your attitude to me isn't very friendly today and you prefered to delete that information from the main page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.220.33.64 ( talk) 16:20, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
And about ů - don't mix slavic and germanic languages, because that you've mentioned is more typical for Czech language than for German. May be you know that in modern Czech it is to be read as long u (written not in the beginning of the word where ú with accent is used). And what about German? For example, you can read some Renaissance documents. E.g., a document (circa 1542) about Carl V and his war in Algeria: <...>mit einer treffenlichen Armada/die Statt Algiero zů Erobern...<...> und so weiter!
Round and brevis were used as well as half-rounds and commas above u. You can find them if you want. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.220.33.64 ( talk) 16:39, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
62.220.33.64 ( talk) The justice is alive! Some pieces of information which I have proposed are written in the Note. Das ist nicht schlecht. Natuerlich! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.220.33.64 ( talk) 16:46, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
The turrets on the battleship Bismarck were named: Anton, Bruno, Caesar, Dora. The article makes no mention of the word Bruno being used as part of the WWII German spelling alphabet. Was this just an anomaly, or are there other instances of this? - Noha307 ( talk) 02:47, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
It is not true that most Germans think that there are 26 letters. If you compare this article to the German version of this article, you can see the section with the comment, that some say it’s 26, some say it’s 27 (including the ß) and some saying it’s 30 (including äöüß). 92.10.254.18 ( talk) 10:26, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
I think this page might need to be merged with German orthography. The only piece of information on this page that isn’t covered at German orthography is the spelling alphabet, which could easily be added as a column to the current tables in the alphabet section of the German orthography pages. 2001:BB6:B84C:CF00:15BB:56B7:7154:568D ( talk) 12:35, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
The traditional german spelling alphabet "postalische Buchstabiertafel" got replaced by "Deutsche Buchstabiertafel für Wirtschaft und Verwaltung" as can bee seen here. I did read the DIN 5009 which states that table reworked in 2020 was only symbolic to revert the changed the nazis made. In the official table, the spelling alphabet consits of german cities. 2A00:8A60:C010:1:0:0:1:10F2 ( talk) 15:45, 13 February 2024 (UTC)