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I did my best to wikify this. This has the start of a great article, but it is still very non-encyclopedic in tone. I removed 1st person references, and tried to add section headers. The information is all there, but someone with more interest and knowledge in the subject than I needs to comb through and extract the encyclopedia article from this term paper. I did all that I could. Good luck. -- Jayron32| talk| contribs 03:44, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Note: originally posted at Talk:Germans in Argentina
... to have this information added to German settlement in Argentina, first off to be consistent with the "XXX settlement in Argentina" series and also to further develop this information. If properly done, the result would be awesome, looks like someone have been doing a good job here. Opinions, please? -- 201.253.130.244 07:37, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Note: originally posted at Talk:Germans in Argentina
For the known German-Argentines, having the category of German-Argentine doesn't mean that the fact is sourced. WEhat's more, this list, and the categories in the corresponding articles, seam to be made of people with surnames that look German, but I doubt Jorge Novak (slavic surname) or Cristian Breitenstein carry a German passport. Besides, many are really not that notable ( Raúl Daniel Schmidt??) -- Mariano( t/ c) 21:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
You are dead wrong then. Just because you never heard of Raul Schmidt doesnt mean hes not notable Mariano, as if you research him he does have a impressive record [1]. The Germans in Argentina article shows it's sources for the famous Argentines of German descent which I took and then expanded. Cristian Breistenstein if he is not notable then I dont know who is he is the mayor of Bahia Blanca and the goverment has a page about him (might I mention he speaks Good German and Understands it very well.) [2] If these are not notable people then why do many have Wikipedia articles that even show there importance?( XGustaX 21:30, 13 April 2007 (UTC))
Jorge Novak is of Volga German descent
[3], he was born in a colony of Volga German settlers in Argentina too
[4]. Novak may be a slavic reform of Neumann surname and viceversa
[5]. Cristian Breitenstein (breiten= of german "broad", stein of german "stone") is also of Volga German descent and is used to going to the festival of Volga German descents in
Coronel Suárez too
[6]. Here you may see Breitenstein surname among Volga Germans who also settled in North America
[7].
How important is the German-Argentine community? It is estimated that around 7% of the Argentine population have a German surname (including Ashkenazis). As we know, there are 1,200,000 descendents of Volga Germans. It is also known that around 60,000 Germans (from Germany) settled in the country between 1857 and 1946 (out of more than 150,000 immigrants). Many Germans settled in the country after the end of the WWII (around [50,000 in 1960 only). According to the German embassy there are between 600,000 and 1,000,000 people with German ancestry living in Argentina. So there are at least 1,800,000 German-Argentines. Note that I haven't included descendents of Swiss Germans and Austrians. The figures could be as high as 2,800,000 (7% of the Argentine population) if you include all the Germanic communities.-- Elnuevomercurio 16:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I have been reading recently that up to 22 precent in total are of German descent or part German descent.
[8] German-Argentines make up the third largest community in Argentina, after of course Italian-Argentines and
Spanish-Argentines. I also do know that about 1,800,000 Argentines speak German. In terms of Cultural and contritubtions made by German-Argentines they seem endless, I keep finding more and more, Please read the article for more informationThanks for the information. (
XGustaX 17:04, 21 May 2007 (UTC))
It seems correct to me. I don't know where they got there sources from but from reading the rest of the article they got the sources right. I am from Argentina and it is very very common to hear "Soy Aleman" or " I am German" it is a very common ancestry here. However, keep in mind this does not mean they are only German this 22 percent this also includes people who are part. A common mix here to is Spanish and German or Italian and German. As for making them like the Brazilian pages, I dont know I kind of wanted to try something new and different. (
XGustaX 14:58, 22 May 2007 (UTC))
However, you are looking at only figures before WWII what about after WWII when Germans came by the boat loads 250,000 each year. The figure seems right and I think you miss understood the Essay they were just talking about anyone from Argentina who was non-Spanish since the article is suppose to prove that most people from Argentina are non-Spanish descent. To say English ancestry is not that important is a vast understatment as well, here in Argentina there are tons of English schools. The reason we play polo is because of the English. The reason we have the most extensive railroad system is also because of the English. I know we have over 500,000 Irish families living in Argentina making Argentina the 5th largest Irish community in the world. We are just talking about Irish people let mind you. As for the Swiss figure those are correct because you have to realize we are talking about a a vast period not just 1880-1940 but all the way to present and all the way from all the way back to when Argentina was independent if you add up the figures they add up to about just right. Either way both figures support one another. (
XGustaX 15:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC))
When we talk about descendants of Germans, it's important to add the ones who have come to Argentina from other countries, and not only from Germany, because those are of German descent too (even when they stayed in other countries before coming to Argentina). And then you have to do the sum.
Please, remember citizenship only refers to a person's membership in a political community, it is just a legal matter which doesn't change your ethnic group and has nothing to do with it, while ethnicity is an extraterritorial condition (which no legal matter can change).
So many German inmigrants arrived to Argentina and are recorded as Russians, Ukranians, Romanians, etc just because they didn't come from Germany. And since German Embassy in Argentina doesn't count them (they are not descendants of German CITIZENS), we have to take into account, at least, how many people of ethnic German descent the NGOs (Non-governmental organizations) have recorded.
A one of those NOGs is, for example, the Asociación Argentina Descendientes de Alemanes del Volga.
So then we do, at least, the partial sum:
PARTIAL RESULT: (more than) 2,200,000 Argentines of German descent (remember this is a PARTIAL result)
And now: why do we say "more than" instead of a number? Just because we don't want to estimate how many descendants are not recorded, in order of being neutral. German Embassy and NGOs know they are "more" and say it. They know they haven't recorded all of them but count only the ones with the proofs. They don't estimate a number and we won't either.
We continue:
Did we add Argentines of German Swiss descent on that sum? Not yet.
Did we add Argentines of Black Sea German descent on that sum? Not yet.
Did we add Argentines of Caucasus German descent on that sum? Not yet.
Did we add Argentines of Danube Swabian descent on that sum? Not yet.
Did we add Argentines of Mennonite descent on that sum? Not yet.
And what about the ones of Sudeten German descent?
And what about those Argentines who are descendants of the rest of the ethnic German groups which have come to the country?
Enough: Some of the descendants of those German groups are recorded, others not. The point is to show why it is impossible to consider a minimun of 600,000 Argentines of German descent like someone has edited yesterday.
This is the reason. It is not a whim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.245.191.192 ( talk) 06:29, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
The last one is: 190.209.44.39. Please, check this. -- 190.245.191.192 ( talk) 17:51, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Ihnen?
Why is Hermann Burmeister photograph placed in the infobox as an Argentine of German descent. How can Hermann Burmeister have been an Argentine of German descent when according to the page in German he was a German zoologist who had worked on and off in South America and settled in Argentina when he was 54. Burmeister was a working German scientist in Argentina most of his research were commissioned by universities from Germany – which he shared with students and academics of Universities in Latin America.
The Spanish wikipedia page also clarifies in the biography of Burmeister that he "fue un naturalista, paleontólogo y zoólogo alemán, que desempeñó la mayor parte de su carrera en Argentina." I don’t think that this Project was started as part of Wikiproject Germany by someone from Europe – because in Germany anyone who has gone to school knows that Burmeister was German not a Latin American of German descent. The statistics on the infobox is completely distorted and exaggerated as well it doesn’t correspond in any way from official figures released by the German Embassy in Buenos Aires or by CENSUS analysis firms.
Bis später__
C-klums (
talk) 03:09, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Let's see: Hermann Burmeister was born in Stralsund, a Baltic city that in those times was under Swedish control. He was not German in the sense he was born in Germany, but he was an Ethnic German. Yes, he was of German descent and German was his ethnicity, too. In Argentina, he took also Argentine citizenship, which does not mean he wasn't German any more. An ethnic German holding Argentine citizenship may be surely considered an Argentine of German descent. Please, try not to revoke unless you know for sure.
Chipppy (
talk) 02:53, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
There are troubles with some IP from Chile. They has been vandalizing this page for a long time. They remove sources and re edit old sources which are already out of date. What happens with this? See: 200.104.32.160, 190.208.86.19, 190.209.44.39, same IP vandalizing in Spanish Wikipedia [11], [12], [13], and so on.
While Chilean IP re edit old source about Germans in Argentina, they exagerate descendants of Germans in Chile [14], [15], [16], and also change numbers from Peru, eg, showing less Peruvians of German descent. Americanlurker ( talk) 21:05, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
The statistics on the infobox is completely distorted and exaggerated as well it doesn’t correspond in any way from official figures released by the German Embassy in Buenos Aires or by CENSUS analysis firms.
In the history of the page you made the following statement:
Whilst the role of the German Embassy in Buenos Aires is to protect its nationals living there it is also involved in developing cultural and scientific relations. They also archive historical information about Germans and their descendents. The statistics of these populations is also very dynamic for example in just a few years the number of German Citizens with permanent residency in Argentina has dropped from approximately 50,000 to less than 10,000 – with many people moving to Europe, the US or Chile. The figure of Argentines of German descent is also subject to the factors that has decreased the number of Germans living in Argentina.
I support the data pointing towards an estimate of 600,000 German Argentines. It is sad and makes a mockery of this project if people are using it and one day click on this page and say “how incredible there are 3 million German argentines and then they click on to it the next day and they find the population has been reduced by 2.4 million to 600,000. (in a time of peace!).
Your issue with whom you call “Chilean IPs” is that these editors or editor is acting pretty much with your attitude. Instead of being so fixated on this German Argentine page you should start the Peruvian Argentine and Bolivian Argentine page. I would like to see them too, with the picture of the notable peruvians and bolivians in Argentina - it is only fair.
This from Cientifica1 to you: Maybe,first you should learn Spanish and watch the interview with the German ambassador in Argentine.He make it clear that they more than a million and half of german argentines(from Germany).Second as a peruvian I feel offended because we are Peruvians not argentine.Most peruvian is recent immigration that is going back to Peru.Peru is growing as a country and Argentina no.Maybe you are from Chile.People from Chile hate Peruvians and Argentina.Germany just admitted that 5000 Nazis escape to Argsntine.Is all over the web. Also all that information can be found in You Tube.You can actually watch the interview.As a Peruvian please do not put us in fights. Cientifica1 ( talk) 03:46, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
Anyway, you can keep fighting on how German Argentina is I am not going to be editing this page.
Plus
Hermann Burmeister is not a Latin American of German descent he is a German scientist just like
Albert Einstein was a German scientist even though he was ethnically Ashkenazi and became a US. Citizen.
and…I rest my case.
Bis später__ C-klums ( talk) 03:09, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
In the article about "Italians", it's said that there're about 20,000.000 Italian Argentines. In the article about them, it's said the number is 25,000.000. Now I see this article, and it gives a information of more than 3,000.000 of German Argentines, but the principal article of Germans gives about 2,000.000. Wikipedia doesn't need more lies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.58.126.40 ( talk) 03:13, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
My friend, those figures are always "estimations". Please enlight us with better information if you have any. Cheers. 201.254.117.172 ( talk) 22:31, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
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The following people in the list are Swiss rather than German in origin (according to name):
- Nieves Zuberbühler - René Strickler - Nestor Kirchner - Santiago Zurbriggen - Alberto Ammann - Federico Sturzenegger - Facundo Arana (von Bernard) - Natali Kessler - Teodoro Waldner - Alfredo Wismer - Claudia Burkart
many more in the list could be either Swiss or German 2A02:1210:2ED3:BA00:C101:2F:46A8:E25F ( talk) 22:26, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
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I did my best to wikify this. This has the start of a great article, but it is still very non-encyclopedic in tone. I removed 1st person references, and tried to add section headers. The information is all there, but someone with more interest and knowledge in the subject than I needs to comb through and extract the encyclopedia article from this term paper. I did all that I could. Good luck. -- Jayron32| talk| contribs 03:44, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Note: originally posted at Talk:Germans in Argentina
... to have this information added to German settlement in Argentina, first off to be consistent with the "XXX settlement in Argentina" series and also to further develop this information. If properly done, the result would be awesome, looks like someone have been doing a good job here. Opinions, please? -- 201.253.130.244 07:37, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Note: originally posted at Talk:Germans in Argentina
For the known German-Argentines, having the category of German-Argentine doesn't mean that the fact is sourced. WEhat's more, this list, and the categories in the corresponding articles, seam to be made of people with surnames that look German, but I doubt Jorge Novak (slavic surname) or Cristian Breitenstein carry a German passport. Besides, many are really not that notable ( Raúl Daniel Schmidt??) -- Mariano( t/ c) 21:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
You are dead wrong then. Just because you never heard of Raul Schmidt doesnt mean hes not notable Mariano, as if you research him he does have a impressive record [1]. The Germans in Argentina article shows it's sources for the famous Argentines of German descent which I took and then expanded. Cristian Breistenstein if he is not notable then I dont know who is he is the mayor of Bahia Blanca and the goverment has a page about him (might I mention he speaks Good German and Understands it very well.) [2] If these are not notable people then why do many have Wikipedia articles that even show there importance?( XGustaX 21:30, 13 April 2007 (UTC))
Jorge Novak is of Volga German descent
[3], he was born in a colony of Volga German settlers in Argentina too
[4]. Novak may be a slavic reform of Neumann surname and viceversa
[5]. Cristian Breitenstein (breiten= of german "broad", stein of german "stone") is also of Volga German descent and is used to going to the festival of Volga German descents in
Coronel Suárez too
[6]. Here you may see Breitenstein surname among Volga Germans who also settled in North America
[7].
How important is the German-Argentine community? It is estimated that around 7% of the Argentine population have a German surname (including Ashkenazis). As we know, there are 1,200,000 descendents of Volga Germans. It is also known that around 60,000 Germans (from Germany) settled in the country between 1857 and 1946 (out of more than 150,000 immigrants). Many Germans settled in the country after the end of the WWII (around [50,000 in 1960 only). According to the German embassy there are between 600,000 and 1,000,000 people with German ancestry living in Argentina. So there are at least 1,800,000 German-Argentines. Note that I haven't included descendents of Swiss Germans and Austrians. The figures could be as high as 2,800,000 (7% of the Argentine population) if you include all the Germanic communities.-- Elnuevomercurio 16:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I have been reading recently that up to 22 precent in total are of German descent or part German descent.
[8] German-Argentines make up the third largest community in Argentina, after of course Italian-Argentines and
Spanish-Argentines. I also do know that about 1,800,000 Argentines speak German. In terms of Cultural and contritubtions made by German-Argentines they seem endless, I keep finding more and more, Please read the article for more informationThanks for the information. (
XGustaX 17:04, 21 May 2007 (UTC))
It seems correct to me. I don't know where they got there sources from but from reading the rest of the article they got the sources right. I am from Argentina and it is very very common to hear "Soy Aleman" or " I am German" it is a very common ancestry here. However, keep in mind this does not mean they are only German this 22 percent this also includes people who are part. A common mix here to is Spanish and German or Italian and German. As for making them like the Brazilian pages, I dont know I kind of wanted to try something new and different. (
XGustaX 14:58, 22 May 2007 (UTC))
However, you are looking at only figures before WWII what about after WWII when Germans came by the boat loads 250,000 each year. The figure seems right and I think you miss understood the Essay they were just talking about anyone from Argentina who was non-Spanish since the article is suppose to prove that most people from Argentina are non-Spanish descent. To say English ancestry is not that important is a vast understatment as well, here in Argentina there are tons of English schools. The reason we play polo is because of the English. The reason we have the most extensive railroad system is also because of the English. I know we have over 500,000 Irish families living in Argentina making Argentina the 5th largest Irish community in the world. We are just talking about Irish people let mind you. As for the Swiss figure those are correct because you have to realize we are talking about a a vast period not just 1880-1940 but all the way to present and all the way from all the way back to when Argentina was independent if you add up the figures they add up to about just right. Either way both figures support one another. (
XGustaX 15:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC))
When we talk about descendants of Germans, it's important to add the ones who have come to Argentina from other countries, and not only from Germany, because those are of German descent too (even when they stayed in other countries before coming to Argentina). And then you have to do the sum.
Please, remember citizenship only refers to a person's membership in a political community, it is just a legal matter which doesn't change your ethnic group and has nothing to do with it, while ethnicity is an extraterritorial condition (which no legal matter can change).
So many German inmigrants arrived to Argentina and are recorded as Russians, Ukranians, Romanians, etc just because they didn't come from Germany. And since German Embassy in Argentina doesn't count them (they are not descendants of German CITIZENS), we have to take into account, at least, how many people of ethnic German descent the NGOs (Non-governmental organizations) have recorded.
A one of those NOGs is, for example, the Asociación Argentina Descendientes de Alemanes del Volga.
So then we do, at least, the partial sum:
PARTIAL RESULT: (more than) 2,200,000 Argentines of German descent (remember this is a PARTIAL result)
And now: why do we say "more than" instead of a number? Just because we don't want to estimate how many descendants are not recorded, in order of being neutral. German Embassy and NGOs know they are "more" and say it. They know they haven't recorded all of them but count only the ones with the proofs. They don't estimate a number and we won't either.
We continue:
Did we add Argentines of German Swiss descent on that sum? Not yet.
Did we add Argentines of Black Sea German descent on that sum? Not yet.
Did we add Argentines of Caucasus German descent on that sum? Not yet.
Did we add Argentines of Danube Swabian descent on that sum? Not yet.
Did we add Argentines of Mennonite descent on that sum? Not yet.
And what about the ones of Sudeten German descent?
And what about those Argentines who are descendants of the rest of the ethnic German groups which have come to the country?
Enough: Some of the descendants of those German groups are recorded, others not. The point is to show why it is impossible to consider a minimun of 600,000 Argentines of German descent like someone has edited yesterday.
This is the reason. It is not a whim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.245.191.192 ( talk) 06:29, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
The last one is: 190.209.44.39. Please, check this. -- 190.245.191.192 ( talk) 17:51, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Ihnen?
Why is Hermann Burmeister photograph placed in the infobox as an Argentine of German descent. How can Hermann Burmeister have been an Argentine of German descent when according to the page in German he was a German zoologist who had worked on and off in South America and settled in Argentina when he was 54. Burmeister was a working German scientist in Argentina most of his research were commissioned by universities from Germany – which he shared with students and academics of Universities in Latin America.
The Spanish wikipedia page also clarifies in the biography of Burmeister that he "fue un naturalista, paleontólogo y zoólogo alemán, que desempeñó la mayor parte de su carrera en Argentina." I don’t think that this Project was started as part of Wikiproject Germany by someone from Europe – because in Germany anyone who has gone to school knows that Burmeister was German not a Latin American of German descent. The statistics on the infobox is completely distorted and exaggerated as well it doesn’t correspond in any way from official figures released by the German Embassy in Buenos Aires or by CENSUS analysis firms.
Bis später__
C-klums (
talk) 03:09, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Let's see: Hermann Burmeister was born in Stralsund, a Baltic city that in those times was under Swedish control. He was not German in the sense he was born in Germany, but he was an Ethnic German. Yes, he was of German descent and German was his ethnicity, too. In Argentina, he took also Argentine citizenship, which does not mean he wasn't German any more. An ethnic German holding Argentine citizenship may be surely considered an Argentine of German descent. Please, try not to revoke unless you know for sure.
Chipppy (
talk) 02:53, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
There are troubles with some IP from Chile. They has been vandalizing this page for a long time. They remove sources and re edit old sources which are already out of date. What happens with this? See: 200.104.32.160, 190.208.86.19, 190.209.44.39, same IP vandalizing in Spanish Wikipedia [11], [12], [13], and so on.
While Chilean IP re edit old source about Germans in Argentina, they exagerate descendants of Germans in Chile [14], [15], [16], and also change numbers from Peru, eg, showing less Peruvians of German descent. Americanlurker ( talk) 21:05, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
The statistics on the infobox is completely distorted and exaggerated as well it doesn’t correspond in any way from official figures released by the German Embassy in Buenos Aires or by CENSUS analysis firms.
In the history of the page you made the following statement:
Whilst the role of the German Embassy in Buenos Aires is to protect its nationals living there it is also involved in developing cultural and scientific relations. They also archive historical information about Germans and their descendents. The statistics of these populations is also very dynamic for example in just a few years the number of German Citizens with permanent residency in Argentina has dropped from approximately 50,000 to less than 10,000 – with many people moving to Europe, the US or Chile. The figure of Argentines of German descent is also subject to the factors that has decreased the number of Germans living in Argentina.
I support the data pointing towards an estimate of 600,000 German Argentines. It is sad and makes a mockery of this project if people are using it and one day click on this page and say “how incredible there are 3 million German argentines and then they click on to it the next day and they find the population has been reduced by 2.4 million to 600,000. (in a time of peace!).
Your issue with whom you call “Chilean IPs” is that these editors or editor is acting pretty much with your attitude. Instead of being so fixated on this German Argentine page you should start the Peruvian Argentine and Bolivian Argentine page. I would like to see them too, with the picture of the notable peruvians and bolivians in Argentina - it is only fair.
This from Cientifica1 to you: Maybe,first you should learn Spanish and watch the interview with the German ambassador in Argentine.He make it clear that they more than a million and half of german argentines(from Germany).Second as a peruvian I feel offended because we are Peruvians not argentine.Most peruvian is recent immigration that is going back to Peru.Peru is growing as a country and Argentina no.Maybe you are from Chile.People from Chile hate Peruvians and Argentina.Germany just admitted that 5000 Nazis escape to Argsntine.Is all over the web. Also all that information can be found in You Tube.You can actually watch the interview.As a Peruvian please do not put us in fights. Cientifica1 ( talk) 03:46, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
Anyway, you can keep fighting on how German Argentina is I am not going to be editing this page.
Plus
Hermann Burmeister is not a Latin American of German descent he is a German scientist just like
Albert Einstein was a German scientist even though he was ethnically Ashkenazi and became a US. Citizen.
and…I rest my case.
Bis später__ C-klums ( talk) 03:09, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
In the article about "Italians", it's said that there're about 20,000.000 Italian Argentines. In the article about them, it's said the number is 25,000.000. Now I see this article, and it gives a information of more than 3,000.000 of German Argentines, but the principal article of Germans gives about 2,000.000. Wikipedia doesn't need more lies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.58.126.40 ( talk) 03:13, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
My friend, those figures are always "estimations". Please enlight us with better information if you have any. Cheers. 201.254.117.172 ( talk) 22:31, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:14, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:12, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:54, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
The following people in the list are Swiss rather than German in origin (according to name):
- Nieves Zuberbühler - René Strickler - Nestor Kirchner - Santiago Zurbriggen - Alberto Ammann - Federico Sturzenegger - Facundo Arana (von Bernard) - Natali Kessler - Teodoro Waldner - Alfredo Wismer - Claudia Burkart
many more in the list could be either Swiss or German 2A02:1210:2ED3:BA00:C101:2F:46A8:E25F ( talk) 22:26, 14 August 2023 (UTC)