There is an article about George Wythe, but THIS article is about George Wythe COLLEGE. It is a very basic, very bare-bones overview of George Wythe College. I don't know a LOT about it, so I put down what I know, hopefully somebody else will fill in the rest.
Is GWC a for-profit institution? Just wondering, because the Alumni section lists Shanon Brooks as "CEO of George Wythe College." If so, something should be included in the article. -- Eustress ( talk) 00:36, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
Even in a non-profit you still have a board of directors and a CEO. The office of a CEO does not solely apply to for-profit corporations but non-profit corporations as well. Just like a credit union is a non-profit corporation and has a board and a CEO. Gruntsmith ( talk) 07:09, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
A new editor, "Gruntsmith", recently made massive deletions to the article with no prior discussion here at the talk page. Please bring up any issues here before deleting large chunks of the article. Thanks. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 15:10, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
A reading of the cited case and footnote do not substantiate that "Her degree was discredited by the Arkansas state board of appeals . . . " The court of appeals opinion says, "The court noted that Dr. Tracy's methodology in conducting studies and reaching her conclusions were suspect and did not follow any accepted scientific method. The court further stated that Dr. Tracy's proffered testimony displayed prejudice toward an entire series of drugs or classification of drugs, and that Dr. Tracy appeared to be on a crusade to eliminate the use of certain drugs, including Paxil. The court concluded that Dr. Tracy's testimony would not be reliable or relevant and that even if the evidence were relevant, the testimony would mislead and confuse the jury." Ann Tracy's research did not meet the court's criteria and evidently her zeal didn't either. The court still referenced Ms Tracy as "Dr.", which if they had "discredited" (Webster: "to reject as untrue") her "degree" they probably would not have called her by a title that was rejected. 2ewrap ( talk) 03:52, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
I just cleaned up the Life Experience section based on the GWU student handbook and the discussion here on the talk page about life experience credit. Now as I look at the section it just seems strange that there is so much about Ann Tracy. I think 2ewrap's points above need to be revisited. The DN article only quotes Ann Tracy boasting about herself which doesn't confirm anything at all about GW's opinion concerning the quality of her work. It has no relevance to this article unless someone from GW said it.
Secondly, other than what Ann Tracy claims, is there any source demonstrating she received more than 30 credit hours for life experience? That's not enough to get any kind of degree. This section seems like it's giving undue weight to an odd case who's claims don't even seem verifiable.-- 4by40 ( talk) 03:33, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
I found this note today elsewhere marking deletion of a similar Ann Tracy reference: "Tracy material removed by OTRS as BLP violation cannot be inserted here either. BLP applies to all articles" I have since followed the administrator's example and removed it from this article.-- Arationalguy ( talk) 22:01, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
What is it with all the single-purpose editors making changes to this article? Gycklmr, 2ewrap, Penelope231, Gruntsmith, etc. make edits to GW-related articles and pretty much nothing else, and the edits are have a pro-GW bent. Are these sock puppets? -- TrustTruth ( talk) 05:42, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
{{geodata-check}}
The current coordinates are incorrect; they place GWU on
BYU's campus. I have been unable to locate GWU using its street address.
Super Rad
! 01:23, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
The introductory paragraph for this article mingles too much history with current facts, making it difficult to tell what is currently relevant. I've been reading a lot of university and college articles on WP. More often than not, the introductory paragraph on an institution of higher learning simply states what the institution is at present, e.g. non-profit or for-profit, private or public, liberal-arts, religious bent, specialty or emphasis, size, location, etc. This seems to be the more logical, standard and appropriate way of doing it. In addition, most universities were at one point colleges but their previous college status is only mentioned in the history section. I'm recommending that the introduction be cleaned up a bit by moving the historical elements to the history section and fleshing the introduction out with current facts about this institution. -- 4by40 ( talk) 05:31, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
You can find the dba designation at the Utah Department of Commerce entity lookup ( https://secure.utah.gov/bes/action/index). Search for George Wythe. My point in bringing up the fact that GW is not a "real" university was that, therefore, Wikipedia articles on universities may not be the only guide to turn to. I'm not at all opposed to improving the intro paragraph. Be bold, but please don't remove relevant, cited sources. I concede the point that respectable institutions give out credit for (vetted) life experience. I wasn't aware of this. I wonder how well GW vets this life experience however, as GW gave Ann Blake Tracy a doctorate in psychology for writing a book the Deseret News pointed out "contains spelling and punctuation errors and incomplete sentences".
I agree the George Wythe Foundation board would have approved the dba designation. That doesn't show the change from "college" to "university" really means anything. Aren't they back to one president and one campus now anyway? And even that campus is shrinking / laying people off? -- TrustTruth ( talk) 17:23, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I restructured the introductory paragraph by adding basic program descriptions from the school's website and moving distracting historical data to it's proper section. Due to redundancies in this information, much of it was able to be deleted while preserving the references.
Also, the last sentence of the introduction seems strange by listing sources of revenue. I can't find a single college or university WP article that lists their revenue sources in the introduction or anywhere else in the article, frankly. I don't see how it has any bearing since most universities have multiple revenue sources anyway (bookstore sales, attire, athletics, patents, etc.) It just seems out of place.-- 4by40 ( talk) 06:53, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
The reason for the quotations is that the way the school uses the term has different connotations than general usage. A solution to this would be to define this term early in the article. That would make the quotation marks unnecessary later on. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 00:09, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
I recommend you get an editor on here with an actual edit history, so we can be sure Arationalguy is not a sockpuppet for 4by40. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 21:45, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
I reverted back the changes on Youth For America seminar topics and location. When I updated it the day before, I cited the specific seminar topics directly from the YFA website, so this should not have been undone. Also, there was no seminar called U.S. Constitution on their program outline, nor could I find it in their text list. In addition, I don't see the need for including any outdated previous locations of the Youth For America seminars since they moved it in 2007. It's not relevant and it seems trivial. Are we going to start listing all previous locations of every organization's events on WP? -- 4by40 ( talk) 20:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Please explain recent reversions of cited material here before reverting again. Thanks. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 21:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Holy sarcasm Batman! I see it now thanks. My reasoning on including the U.S. Constitution in the Youth for America section is based on this Deseret News article, which is cited: http://archive.deseretnews.com/archive/366287/EX-DEVOTEES-WANT-TO-KNOW-WHERE-DID-THE-MONEY-GO.html. As far as changing the intro, if it's a Great Books school it's a Great Books school. That means you're using Adler's curriculum (for a base at least). If it's not a Great Books school then let's not call it that. If it's not, and you're stating Great Books of Western Civilization as if everyone knows what that means (and it should be capitalized), then you'll have to define your terms. And based on our previous discussions you prefer as snippy an intro as possible, so the best thing to do in that case may be to drop the mention altogether. I'm open to that. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 23:00, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
My goodness TrustTruth, you've been busy. I see you reverted the intro back again and you claimed I didn't post anything here about my justification for my reversion. Maybe you didn't read this discussion page very well before writing that because I did explain my reasoning up above (since it was before this section was created). And frankly the reasoning I gave was adequate to justify reversion. What you put in about Adler was inaccurate and I provided citations that covered the spectrum of my changes. I don't appreciate being bullied.-- 4by40 ( talk) 22:53, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
I've taken some time to review the edit history of this article and I see some alarming trends. I would prefer to assume good faith on the part of all WP editors, but in this case I'm finding it rather difficult to do so with a straight face. Evidence points to at least one editor treating this article as his personal hobby and assuming ownership over it. While it's common for WP entries about institutions to tend toward an overly promotional bias, this article takes the exact opposite slant of giving undue weight toward negative bias. Attempts over time by random editors to restore balance have been vigorously fended off with tendentious editing, sometimes labeled as vandalism, and intimidated away.
Indeed, this is already happening on my first day posting on this page, by my being accused of being a sock puppet within an hour of my very first post here which happens to disagree with this editor. The bias by this editor is also demonstrated by his assumption as judge and jury over the institution, which we as WP editors are not. His statement to another editor just two days ago: "You do realize this is not a real 'university' right?" reveals his bias and agenda. I'm reminded of cases in which disgruntled employees abuse WP, assuming it's their own personal forum to use as a weapon. This undermines the integrity of WP, which is not a format for such agendas.
With no fear of intimidation from disruptive editors, let's use this section to discuss ways we can balance this article with the same fair treatment granted to other liberal arts colleges and universities. This would mean representing more than just a minority POV opposing the school, but current relevant facts from a truly NPOV. For example, I know of no other WP entry with a section on past degrees no longer offered. I would like to see this balanced with what the current coursework looks like, current requirements for graduation, etc, and other items that are relevant, timely and in context.-- Arationalguy ( talk) 23:16, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
The reference on students getting credit for working for Comanity is a dead link. It looks like it was an "about" page from the Comanity website which no longer exists and I couldn't find it on the Way Back Machine. I did a Google search and found a GW.edu page that detailed what Comanity is and their connection to it, but it didn't mention anything about students receiving credit. Does anyone know a verifiable source showing that students received credit? I did find this about the GW policy on field experience:
Each undergraduate student must complete a minimum of three field-experiences in order to graduate. Practica may include substantive jobs, internships, volunteer work, etc. The field-experience must be approved in advance by the Graduation Committee.
Most field experiences range from two to four months. After completion, students submit a comprehensive 10-30 page report detailing setbacks, accomplishments, principles applied, lessons learned, and how the experience gained will be applied in their continued studies. [10]
If it is true that students received field experience credit by working for Comanity, it looks like they still would have had to do academic work for the credit to be awarded. That isn't mentioned at all in the section on Comanity. The way the Comanity section is currently written makes the field experience credit look illegitimate, but I'm not seeing any evidence to support that. I wonder if it should be removed until we have a reference?-- 4by40 ( talk) 06:21, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Having joined the Wikiproject Universities, I’ve discovered they offer a great list of “featured articles” which provide excellent models for us to follow. These have been awarded top honors for style, objectivity, content, etc. which should be very helpful in providing a standard to guide us as WP editors. That said, I’ve gone through the source document already cited for the GW History section entitled “The First Fifteen Years” (a tedious read I must admit) in order to connect the dots into a summary narrative. The most appropriate model for style, content and structure I could find in the “featured articles” list was Dartmouth, which is at the top of their list. At least up through 2005, here’s how the GW History would read if we follow Dartmouth’s arrangement of information and narrative style combined with headings like they do at Texas A&M: See User:Arationalguy/test history and comment back on this page. Thanks.-- Arationalguy ( talk) 04:48, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
{{
citation}}
: |archive-date=
requires |archive-url=
(
help). Therefore it appears that these people you earlier described as having been put out to pasture may have been fudging the history. It would be really nice if we could corroborate what The First Fifteen Years says with another source. Or, if that's not possible, at least make it clear which parts of the account come from this source alone. --
TrustTruth (
talk) 14:10, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
I added the history details for now. However, after looking at the Methodology section 4by40 added, something seems odd. I can't put my finger on it. Maybe it needs tightening up? I'll look at it again tomorrow.-- Arationalguy ( talk) 09:38, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
I just finished connecting the relevant dots in the history section to bring it up to date, as far as I can tell--minus redundancies. The narrative reads very similar to Dartmouth and others now. I did my best with available references and limited time.-- Arationalguy ( talk) 21:04, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
I propose we use the best of Wikipedia's "featured articles" for universities as a standards guide from now on. This will require some restructuring and editing of this article so that it conforms appropriately and consistently with its category. The current outline would basically remain, but with a few significant changes. Below is one proposal for the outline, based on the norms I'm finding customized to fit a liberal arts school since they tend to explain their curriculum (sort of like what 4by40 posted earlier).
This one was modeled after Georgetown University, a "featured article" and a couple of liberal arts colleges. I haven't found a "Financial" section among these model articles, so its subsections would be absorbed into the other sections where relevant. Anything else currently given it a heading in the current GWU article would also need justification in order to be plugged into one of these standard categories, or it's possible it could be added into the section for Notes. I think it would be nice to get this article into compliance and rated higher.
* 1 History 1.1 Beginnings 1.2 Founding 1.3 Independence and expansion * 2 Academics 2.1 Curriculum 2.1.1 Methodology 2.2 Faculty 2.3 Accreditation * 3 Campuses 3.1 Cedar City campus 3.2 Additional campuses 3.3 Extension and Seminar programs 3.4 Distance Studies * 4 Student life 4.1 Student groups 4.2 Activism * 5 Alumni * 6 Notes? * 7 References * 8 External links
Any thoughts on this? --
Arationalguy (
talk) 07:11, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
I just consolidated the course credit issues into a cohesive place and created a notes section for holding things until we figure out their most appropriate locations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arationalguy ( talk • contribs) 00:09, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
I've now moved the items previously under "Finances" to the Notes section -- at least for now. It appears three of the sections basically repeat the same thing, so I placed them at the bottom. Perhaps those three could be consolidated and then dissected before finding out where the information is relevant and consistent with the examples of the featured articles. Also, I haven't given much thought about what to do with the Seminars and Youth Programs. If relevant and consistent with the types of information included in the featured articles, we'll need to decide that too. Any ideas? Meanwhile, I'm off to dinner.-- Arationalguy ( talk) 00:49, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Former degrees are now in the history section, and I cleaned up the Monticello section to the relevant issues the references actually talked about -- that is, how GWU would deal with the economic recession at hand.-- Arationalguy ( talk) 22:33, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
I just researched out the Cedar City campus and filled in relevant details. The selective mentioning of the library use issue was from a 5 year old source that left a false impression that GWU students had been left unable to use it. It appears that in reality the two universities actually have an active library use agreement. The section makes sense now and lacks sensationalism, as one should expect.-- Arationalguy ( talk) 23:57, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
I think the accreditation section is better now without the issues between AALE and the Dept. of Ed., but it still should be handled more plainly and neutrally like the Gutenberg school does, even more boring than that. I checked the references and the first two links are dead, as is the fourth. What they refer to seems redundant anyway. I see no reason for it to be anything but a dry, tight summary like any other of its kind. I'll give it a shot.-- Arationalguy ( talk) 00:43, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
I've finished editing the Accreditation section for NPOV and redundancies with available info.-- Arationalguy ( talk) 04:12, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
I just reverted the reversion by TrustTruth. He claims his references were removed, when in fact I had actually fixed them since they were broken, and then distilled the content to which they linked. The only verifiable facts are that the school had a site visit from AALE that lasted a week in October of 2008, and that the AALE website lists the school as an applicant for accreditation. I referenced each item. He also reverted to language in the second paragraph that was designed to cast a shadow with regard to graduates being admitted into other graduate programs (an unknowable number) wherein I had neutralized the language to just bare facts, boring as they may be. WP is not the place for innuendo.-- Arationalguy ( talk) 18:58, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
This article is reading more and more like a promotional brochure for George Wythe University, and less like a balanced article on the subject. All mention of the school's past diploma mill-type tendencies has been removed, including myriad cited sources. Prime example: throughout the 1990s, this school was awarding degrees based on life experience. References to this practice have been removed wholesale. The article has been taken over by sustained, tendentious editing by 4by40 and Arationalguy, two (?) editors who coincidentally appeared around the same time in the last couple weeks and have edited virtually nothing but GWU-related articles. This appears to be an organized effort by individuals with close ties to the school. I am calling this a whitewash, and will add a pov tag to the article. In addition, I have placed a request for additional feedback at the Wikipedia:WikiProject Universities page. I am very interested to see the comments of editors with a diverse edit history. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 06:16, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
I removed a variety of irrelevant and borderline relevant material, much of which seems to have been designed as attack, some very dubious with respect to BLP. The material on Tracy is irrelevant to the university. I will regard reinsertion of this material in particular as a BLP violation. If anyone wants to try to write an article on her, they are welcome, but I do not think she is notable enough for the purpose. Tuition details are considered promotional and will not be included. DGG ( talk) 04:03, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
If there is evidence that this institution was once a diploma mill I believe that information should be included in this post, perhaps in a "Contreversies" section. A university that has been tagged with the diploma mill label should expect to have this information as part of their history, unlike a university that has never been tagged with such a label. WP should be a vehicle for documenting the factual good, bad, and ugly. In other words, the diploma mill evidence should be allowed because it is factual and should not be seen as necessarily biased. It seems that this point is critical to the question of inclusion/exclusion of the information that has been so hotly debated here. The evidences that I see as relevant to the diploma mill allegations, are that, while being unaccredited, the institution apparently awarded terminal degrees based on life experience only, the institution awarded terminal degrees in areas that they were completely unqualified to award (i.e. they certainly did not have the faculty necessary to award doctoral degrees in subjects already listed here), the institution was awarding degrees to its own faculty members, the institution never seems to make information available about the award dates of their early degrees, and the doctoral degrees are awarded without dissertations being made public for external review. This seems to be part of their past and should be allowed. Perhaps other WP diploma mill entries could be examined for guidance.
That being said, I also think it is important that the current practices of the institution should also be included and made primary. I think many of the recent changes do seem to illuminate how the institution has evolved. However, their checkered past cannot simply be ignored. It does not seem to represent a NPOV to only embrace the positive historical foundations while ignoring the more unseemly past practices. I don't think it is right to have it both ways in this article. I think it is important that the overseeing WP editors understand that this university has some skeletons and that the exclusion of these skeletons is certainly a NPOV issue. All facts need to be presented. Drbhh ( talk) 22:45, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
A possible starting point?
I think that the main controversy could be summed up (and perhaps written up) this way:
George Wythe University is one of the few liberal arts institutions which offers a Ph.D. degree. Controversy exists because it is difficult to evaluate the rigor and validity of GWC/U doctoral degrees due to past and current practices. Evidence indicates that doctoral degrees were awarded early in the school’s history in a wide variety of topics during a period when the faculty body consisted of only one or two members who were, based on their documented areas of academic specialty, likely not qualified in the areas in which the degrees were awarded. (Insert table or paragraph of early degrees here). Additionally, at least one case exists where a doctoral degree may have been awarded for “life experience” and the self-publication of a scholarly book (a situation more likely to merit an honorary doctorate degree) rather than after significant coursework followed by a committee-refereed dissertation. This particular case is troubling because the degree has been used by the recipient in order to achieve expert witness status for various court hearings.
It may be possible to add some clarity to these controversies if the institution followed the accepted practice of making doctoral dissertations available for public review. Access to these dissertations would allow external evaluation of the quality of scholarship and the quality of faculty supervision of past and current doctoral students. As of April 2009, searches of standard digital dissertation and dissertation abstract clearinghouses result in zero dissertations associated with GWC or GWU. While it is understandable that institutions with long histories of awarding many doctoral degrees may not have the resources or motivation to make all of their dissertations available in digital format through the established, web-based clearinghouses, it seems confusing that GWC/U has not made the effort to convert their relatively small number of dissertations for digital dispersion. Additionally, it is not clear whether hard-copies of the past or present dissertations are available in their own library. -- Drbhh ( talk) 19:50, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Obviously I'm coming in late to this discussion, but from what I've seen from other articles the controversy section is most often at the end of the article. This controversy section is right near the top giving it the feel of an obvious bias. Other articles that show my point are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenpeace, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf_education, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedagogy. I think this should be considered since bias should not be a part of Wikipedia articles. -- Truecolors ( talk) 22:30, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
"George Wythe University is one of the few liberal arts institutions which offers a Ph.D. degree." This needs to be explained. Harvard is fundamentally a liberal Arts institution that awards a PhD. i've even personally taught at an overwhelmingly liberal; arts institution that awards a few PhDs (Long Island University). Historically, essentially all 19th c. american phds except from Johns Hopkins were from such schools. As for few, what other schools of the same size do so? If what you intend to do is deprecate the quality of the degree, find a reliable secondary source that makes an appropriate comment--don;t do it by unsourced inneundo which crosses the border into SYN and OR. DGG ( talk) 23:35, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand what value is added by listing the former programs (degrees) under CRBU. I think it should be removed as irrelevant or tangential to the article. GA criterion #3b states that a good article "stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail." — Eustress talk 16:36, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
It would be helpful to go through and check every source to be sure that links are still live, and that they say what the article says they say.
1. For example, #72 is an irrelevant link; looks like it might have had relevance previously, but now seems the domain has expired.
2. "Community Outreach"?: #58 doesn't say what the article says it says (that the school took over YFA when MVI collapsed). YFA has been around for a long time--seems like there should be a better citation for it. Or maybe it should be listed in a Community Outreach section with other things GWU has involvement in, like Rotaract, overseas educational philanthropy, hosting conferences for homeschoolers, summer seminars, etc.
3. "WeSquared": The reference to WeSquared is a little tenuous and insignificant. Why is it even listed as a significant part of the article on GWU? It appears from available information that this is a business that donates a portion of its proceeds to GWU. I'm trying to imagine an article on University of Pennsylvania listing businesses that donate to it. It seems out of place in the article on the university, and in any case, the link provided is to a business entity search engine. Not particularly encyclopedic.
4. "Comanity": again, this seems extremely peripheral to the description of the university. We might as well chronicle the summer jobs selling pest control or security systems or hauling hay, as it were. The link is dead. The commentary is unsourced. Recommend removal of this section.
5. "Accreditation": a simple, "GWU is not accredited" would seem more encyclopedic than the editorial on the merits of accreditation. The notes on alums being accepted to graduate programs seems like it would be of interest to readers accessing the article, but feels like a poor fit in this section, to me.
6. "Methodology": The "according to the school" aside is unattributed and argumentative. Recommend rewording of this section with specific encyclopedic declaration of the school's methodology with high-quality sources cited (looks like most of these are sourced to the school's own stuff, and this seems appropriate to me).
7. "Alumni": Is it customary to list alumni? Seems like that would be a good idea. To only list Congressman Siljander seems rather lean. Also: are we planning to follow the case on him and keep the article up-to-date? A simple link to a Siljander page would seem to suffice; the reference to the legal case seems prejudicial against the university if we are not going to reference his other notable accomplishments as well; again, it seems overly-detailed and out of place. Not that a list of alums would be a bad idea, but if Siljander's the whole list, I recommend removal of this section.
6. "Controversies": The section on controversy raises a good question, and I honestly don't know the answer. Somebody on the WP:Universities project hopefully would know?: is it standard industry practice for universities to publish their theses and dissertations online? The wording of this section seems to have as its assumption that GW is not performing on an industry standard. If it truly is an industry standard, this is relevant as a controversy. If it is not an industry standard, this section is argumentative and prejudicial. I mean, as an alum, I know that GW has a bunch of hard-bound gold-lettered volumes in its library of theses and dissertations of grads that anyone could theoretically go peruse. But not everybody gets to Cedar City that often. It seems like publishing their graduates' writings would be a simple way to quell some of the controversy regarding the degrees awarded by GWU. Is the dissertation/thesis the property of a university, or its author? Would the school need to get a release from the author in order to make it available online? Presumably many candidates would have designs of publishing their thesis/dissertation ideas on their own as well, for profit. Does anybody know anything about this process and common practice?
7. "History": Seems like there is a public perception of continuity of operations that belies that fact that GWC/GWU has really only been in operation since 2002. Previously, "GWC" was a branch of a different school, with religious accreditation, a separate administration, different policies, different degrees offered, etc., etc. These are separate legal entities, right? Do we need to make this clear? Is it relevant? Much is being made of the way things were done differently before and after the change in legal status. Seems like it might be significant that it wasn't actually the same school. In effect, GWC:CRBU died at the end of 2001. CRBU ceased to do operations in Utah and those who had previously been employed by them worked without pay for many months. In 2002 a new school was registered in the state of Utah with different degrees, policies, board, etc. It's a fine point in some people's minds, to be sure, but we ought to consider how it should be treated in the article, if it really is just one article at all. Can somebody comment on my take on this? Am I wrong on my facts? -- Ibinthinkin ( talk) 10:59, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Is GWU a diploma mill? If it is, who says so, and how can we cite them here? If it is not, then the emphasis on a point of view that is neither generally acknowledged nor reliably cited is out of place. You can find, in any single school's history, evidence of alums that either reflect credit or disrepute on the school. You can find, in any school's history, anecdotes of people who were raving fans and people who had an axe to grind. Should we create a new template for articles that dedicate themselves to these topics? Perhaps. But this is not that template, not that article.
The original research that has characterized the approach to this article, and the care with which controversial material has been included (or material with the design of making the school seem flaky--are we SERIOUSLY arguing about Comanity still?) is just so tiresome and out of place. This article should NOT be the forum for investigative journalism. If such responsible sources already exist as make serious accusations about the school and its practices, they should be cited here, as should the school's official response to the accusations by a reliable source. But for Wikipedia to be the publisher of original research into the alleged unethical practices of a school that presumably already answers to its marketplace and the regulatory bodies which permit it to operate is a crime of irony.
There's no scandal here. GW is what it says it is, it does what it says it does. It is an unaccredited school which advertises an educational offering and accepts tuition money from students in exchange for instruction and certification of completion of coursework. Period. End of story. It has a history, and the notable aspects of that history, both the flattering and unflattering ones, are worthy of mention in this article. But the dogmatism with which this article has been edited (on both sides of the aisle of opinion) approaches religious zeal. Can we just stick to the facts and make this article as high a quality as the reference to reliable sources affords? Where there is a lack of clarity on a detail, this is not a call to arms. It is a vacancy of information. And whether or not a particular editor considers the vacancy significant is not justification for original research. An encyclopedic article is limited to, "Information on "x" is not available", at the very most; likely a more standard approach is to leave the reference out entirely. WP is what it is, and we can write a reasonably good-quality article based on the available reliable sources. If the resulting article is a travesty against reason and justice that is too great a burden for some editors to bear, there is a whole world of other options for self-expression that do not answer to the same constraints as does this encyclopedia.
As for the crime of irony: the misrepresentation is not in GW's practices, but in those of the editors who have set out to make this "encyclopedic" article, in express violation of WP's mission and policies, a unilateral call-out to GWU. -- Ibinthinkin ( talk) 12:37, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
User:Truecolors has made some recent edits removing the endowment information and modifying the history section to appear more favorable to the school. Let's discuss these edits here before running into the WP:3RR rule. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 17:20, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
I still have two concerns about the endowment and don't think it ought to be left on. First of all, BYU and St. Johns don't list any endowment. In fact, all the schools I checked either said endowment and had an amount of money or didn't say anything. Secondly, you have misrepresented the quote from DeMille. It says, "We have no endowment. . . ." It doesn't say they have an endowment of zero dollars which is what you are representing. This is completely different. If you are going to continue to include endowment then you need to prove that they have an endowment and that it's worth zero dollars. So far you have only proved that DeMille says they have no endowment at all. That is completely different. Your original research here isn't correct.
Also, you are doing the same thing where you have changed it to read, "Jefferson reading the law with Wythe." In Brooks' history where this history supposedly came from, there is a citation from Skousen's book Making of America. DeMille got his knowledge of Jefferson's education from this book which says, "He studied not only law, but also languages, physics, agriculture, mathematics, philosophy, chemistry, anatomy, zoology, botany, religion, politics, history, literature, rhetoric, and virtually every other subject imaginable." When you changed it to "Jefferson reading the law," you are literally trying to change the history to your own interpretation. We all know this is not acceptable on Wikipedia. This needs to be changed back as well.-- Truecolors ( talk) 00:20, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
The heading "Other Programs" should make note of Leadership Education Uganda. Information on this program is found here: http://newsletter.gw.edu/archive/Submissions/69 and here: http://newsletter.gw.edu/archive/FeaturedArticle/92 and here: http://newsletter.gw.edu/archive/PhotoGalleries/94-- Ibinthinkin ( talk) 07:30, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Also of note are the education conferences that GW has hosted for years: http://newsletter.gw.edu/archive/CampusNews/106, http://newsletter.gw.edu/archive/CampusNews/90. These conferences are for continuing adult education and for facilitation of Leadership Education among public, charter, private and home educators, including the facilitation of the Five Pillars Certification Oral Exams.
Also of note are the bi-annual European excursions with required readings: http://www.gw.edu/seminars/24.php.
The China Project which utilizes GW students as teachers deserves mention.
The U.N. projects in New York, Istanbul and Geneva are worthy of mention.
The Constitutional Convention simulations for students and college-bound youth are worthy of mention.
The Rotaract program chartered through GWU, and the resulting philanthropic projects deserve mention.
Certainly there are others; but to claim to be a college of statesmanship with a peculiar definition of the word seems to demand that the school must have some evidence of projects that reflect their declared purpose of blending entrepreneurship, scholarship, service and leadership. Such projects are relevant and notable, and should be mentioned in the article.-- Ibinthinkin ( talk) 07:50, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
I removed the section of the article referring to the various degrees allegedly awarded during the early years. There was no comment on my previous two attempts to engage other editors in a discussion of this proposed change, and I will nonetheless explain myself again here. The sources on these "degrees" were either dead or unreliable. There is a reason why we don't cite any old webpage or bio as a reliable source on Wikipedia. Think this through: if I put up a bio on my website that said I was awarded a degree from GWU in 2001 as a certified Horse Whisperer, should we cite that, too? What if Joe the Harvard Hater published a CV on some nazi website that declared himself to be a notable graduate of Harvard, just to be mischievous? Should that be noted in the list of Harvard's notable alumni? I'm not here to say that GW never awarded any degrees besides the ones they now offer. I'm saying, absolutely, that there are guidelines on what we can cite here, and the reasons for it are very good ones that we ignore at our peril. We simply can't use OR--especially when the reasons are compelling. That is a sure sign that it's controversial and disputed. So, friends, I have stopped trying to talk about it to nobody-there, and have simply made the edit that was needed.-- Ibinthinkin ( talk) 08:52, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
I propose that the beginnings section be removed. It is a personal account of Oliver DeMille which is covered quite well in the article dedicated to him. This article reads much more encyclopedically without this section. -- Ibinthinkin ( talk) 08:56, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Just a heads up that Checklinks indicates that several citation URLs are dead or have connection issues. Interested editors should help to rescue the links with a web archive or to find an alternate source, otherwise the information may be challenged and deleted. — Eustress talk 01:49, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I have restored the accreditation section. Please discuss here. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 16:44, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Seems like the tuition section ought to give the current rate of tuition for bachelors, masters and doctoral programs and call it good. I don't know of another university site that refers to a tuition increase of more than a year past as the encyclopedic info on its tuition. -- Ibinthinkin ( talk) 18:43, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I've added a to-do list at the top of the page for editors who would like to improve the article. — Eustress talk 19:30, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
How could the 2007 miss junior Utah be an alumnus of GW? How did she graduate that fast? Trms ( talk) 10:06, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Currently the introduction says: "George Wythe University (GWU) is a private, unaccredited,[4] liberal arts university in Cedar City, Utah. GWU's curriculum is centered on the Great Books of Western Civilization and uses discussion-based classes facilitated by "mentors".
I Think that the school is centered on Thomas Jefferson Education rather than Great Books - on the website of the school isn't TJEd mentioned? Any thoughts on this change? Trms ( talk) 12:05, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
- "We have revived the principles of leadership education used by George Wythe to train some of the most influential leaders in history. The process is principle-centered, framed on the classics of Western Civilization in literature, history, science, the arts, and philosophy, grounded in a belief in God and natural law, and crowned in the discipline of real-world application under the guidance of a committed mentor."
Ok, I just updated the fact that the new president is Shane Schulthies (which happened way back in June) and I've noticed a lot of other junk posted in this article that is outdated, irrelevant, and even serving people with an interest in selling books, etc.. I'm reading up on how Wikipedia works, and that seems inappropriate. For example, this endless promotion of TJED and using the GWU Press as an excuse. Fact is, there has been no GWU Press for at least over a year, but that's a red herring anyway because TJED is not even relevant. I have attended GWU classes for a number of semesters and I hear nothing about TJED. This article should not be serving the personal interests of anyone. I'm going to clean up a few things that are clearly out of date and unsubstantiated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Felidae2 ( talk • contribs) 19:18, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
Alright, I think I've updated most of the items that were problems. I can see a few more errors, but need to do a little research first. Felidae2 ( talk) 05:58, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
I just went in and eliminated the redundancy of saying "unaccredited" twice in the same paragraph. It fit better to keep it in the latter sentence since it had added explanation so I took out the first one. I consider this a minor change but thought I would explain it. I also added "classical" to explain liberal arts better.-- Truecolors ( talk) 21:06, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
I removed non-encyclopedic content regarding YFA. The history of YFA can be included, discussed and disputed on its own page. A simple explanation of the program suffices here. For the record, YFA was defunct for ten years when GW took it up. Its location has been: Monticello, 2007-2009; Cedar City, 2005-2006; Mammoth Valley, 2003-2004. Ibinthinkin ( talk) 18:20, 6 June 2009 (UTC) Disagree. You called this non-factual in your edit; it is factual and substantiated by the sources. Re-added. Cite your sources on the timeline. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 01:03, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Back to the point: discussion of YFA here should be as respects GW. An internal link to the content of YFA's own article is more appropriate than discussing its history here. Ibinthinkin ( talk) 15:10, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I believe this section should be removed. It is a privately-owned business with a claim of intentions to donate to the college. It does not provide any essential services on behalf of the college, and cannot reasonably be called (as it is in the current language) a website of the college. It is a for-profit business operated by "friends" of the college with the apparent intention of profiting from a relationship with the college's marketplace, while providing a means of generating interest in the college. I think it's out of place here, unless we want to include other such businesses. That seems a little strained, and is likely in violation of WP policy of promotion of businesses, products and services... Thoughts? Ibinthinkin ( talk) 18:28, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
I am not aware of any statement by the university that it is not seeking accreditation of the graduate programs. However, the current application with AALE is for undergraduate programs, which is specified in the article. We can't prove a negative, and should not comment on the "intent" of the school, or the process of accreditation for graduate programs which may or may not be underway, but undisclosed. -- Ibinthinkin ( talk) 14:37, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
I changed the language from "removal" of Shanon Brooks. To say that a new president was appointed obviates the stepping down of the previous one. Furthermore, "removal" sounds like he got fired, and that's nowhere reflected in the information the University provides. In fact, he remained on the board for months afterward and continues to promote the school in his work in the private sector.
As for the "disappearance" of the chancellor position, this again was worded in a way to somehow reflect that there was a falling out with the individual in question--in this case, Oliver DeMille. DeMille and the University both noted that DeMille's health precluded his continuing in administration. He continues as a board member and as a mentor of graduate students. -- Ibinthinkin ( talk) 14:49, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
I removed the language regarding the dba filing. The designations for academic institutions (such as "institute," "academy," "college," "university) are carefully defined and regulated. The filing of a dba--while being a necessary administrative detail allowing an entity to conduct business under a particular name--does not grant one authority to use the designation "university" in the state of Utah. Ibinthinkin ( talk) 14:37, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
As stated elsewhere in the article, the plans for expansion include developing from small colleges into multi-college campuses. The strategic plan for Monticello--from the first time it was announced in August 2008 at the groundbreaking--included one small building for classroom space that would later become an administrative hub for multiple college buildings. The "modifications" to the plans for expansion in Monticello are not substantive, but chronological, in nature. That is to say: Monticello was always going to start small and grow strategically to maximize the usage of the land there. The announcements of February 2009 did not specify changes to this plan, but rather indicated that the current economic crisis demanded that the pace be commensurate with sustainable growth. Ibinthinkin ( talk) 14:55, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I'm not sure where to put this so I made a new topic. I've noticed that most schools' wikipedia pages display their seal rather than a logo. I found the seal here on this page but I have no idea how to import it here to wikipedia. http://www.gw.edu/ways_to_give/ Maybe someone else will know how to do that. Oh, and sorry for not signing earlier. Felidae2 ( talk) 05:55, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
There is an article about George Wythe, but THIS article is about George Wythe COLLEGE. It is a very basic, very bare-bones overview of George Wythe College. I don't know a LOT about it, so I put down what I know, hopefully somebody else will fill in the rest.
Is GWC a for-profit institution? Just wondering, because the Alumni section lists Shanon Brooks as "CEO of George Wythe College." If so, something should be included in the article. -- Eustress ( talk) 00:36, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
Even in a non-profit you still have a board of directors and a CEO. The office of a CEO does not solely apply to for-profit corporations but non-profit corporations as well. Just like a credit union is a non-profit corporation and has a board and a CEO. Gruntsmith ( talk) 07:09, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
A new editor, "Gruntsmith", recently made massive deletions to the article with no prior discussion here at the talk page. Please bring up any issues here before deleting large chunks of the article. Thanks. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 15:10, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
A reading of the cited case and footnote do not substantiate that "Her degree was discredited by the Arkansas state board of appeals . . . " The court of appeals opinion says, "The court noted that Dr. Tracy's methodology in conducting studies and reaching her conclusions were suspect and did not follow any accepted scientific method. The court further stated that Dr. Tracy's proffered testimony displayed prejudice toward an entire series of drugs or classification of drugs, and that Dr. Tracy appeared to be on a crusade to eliminate the use of certain drugs, including Paxil. The court concluded that Dr. Tracy's testimony would not be reliable or relevant and that even if the evidence were relevant, the testimony would mislead and confuse the jury." Ann Tracy's research did not meet the court's criteria and evidently her zeal didn't either. The court still referenced Ms Tracy as "Dr.", which if they had "discredited" (Webster: "to reject as untrue") her "degree" they probably would not have called her by a title that was rejected. 2ewrap ( talk) 03:52, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
I just cleaned up the Life Experience section based on the GWU student handbook and the discussion here on the talk page about life experience credit. Now as I look at the section it just seems strange that there is so much about Ann Tracy. I think 2ewrap's points above need to be revisited. The DN article only quotes Ann Tracy boasting about herself which doesn't confirm anything at all about GW's opinion concerning the quality of her work. It has no relevance to this article unless someone from GW said it.
Secondly, other than what Ann Tracy claims, is there any source demonstrating she received more than 30 credit hours for life experience? That's not enough to get any kind of degree. This section seems like it's giving undue weight to an odd case who's claims don't even seem verifiable.-- 4by40 ( talk) 03:33, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
I found this note today elsewhere marking deletion of a similar Ann Tracy reference: "Tracy material removed by OTRS as BLP violation cannot be inserted here either. BLP applies to all articles" I have since followed the administrator's example and removed it from this article.-- Arationalguy ( talk) 22:01, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
What is it with all the single-purpose editors making changes to this article? Gycklmr, 2ewrap, Penelope231, Gruntsmith, etc. make edits to GW-related articles and pretty much nothing else, and the edits are have a pro-GW bent. Are these sock puppets? -- TrustTruth ( talk) 05:42, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
{{geodata-check}}
The current coordinates are incorrect; they place GWU on
BYU's campus. I have been unable to locate GWU using its street address.
Super Rad
! 01:23, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
The introductory paragraph for this article mingles too much history with current facts, making it difficult to tell what is currently relevant. I've been reading a lot of university and college articles on WP. More often than not, the introductory paragraph on an institution of higher learning simply states what the institution is at present, e.g. non-profit or for-profit, private or public, liberal-arts, religious bent, specialty or emphasis, size, location, etc. This seems to be the more logical, standard and appropriate way of doing it. In addition, most universities were at one point colleges but their previous college status is only mentioned in the history section. I'm recommending that the introduction be cleaned up a bit by moving the historical elements to the history section and fleshing the introduction out with current facts about this institution. -- 4by40 ( talk) 05:31, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
You can find the dba designation at the Utah Department of Commerce entity lookup ( https://secure.utah.gov/bes/action/index). Search for George Wythe. My point in bringing up the fact that GW is not a "real" university was that, therefore, Wikipedia articles on universities may not be the only guide to turn to. I'm not at all opposed to improving the intro paragraph. Be bold, but please don't remove relevant, cited sources. I concede the point that respectable institutions give out credit for (vetted) life experience. I wasn't aware of this. I wonder how well GW vets this life experience however, as GW gave Ann Blake Tracy a doctorate in psychology for writing a book the Deseret News pointed out "contains spelling and punctuation errors and incomplete sentences".
I agree the George Wythe Foundation board would have approved the dba designation. That doesn't show the change from "college" to "university" really means anything. Aren't they back to one president and one campus now anyway? And even that campus is shrinking / laying people off? -- TrustTruth ( talk) 17:23, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I restructured the introductory paragraph by adding basic program descriptions from the school's website and moving distracting historical data to it's proper section. Due to redundancies in this information, much of it was able to be deleted while preserving the references.
Also, the last sentence of the introduction seems strange by listing sources of revenue. I can't find a single college or university WP article that lists their revenue sources in the introduction or anywhere else in the article, frankly. I don't see how it has any bearing since most universities have multiple revenue sources anyway (bookstore sales, attire, athletics, patents, etc.) It just seems out of place.-- 4by40 ( talk) 06:53, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
The reason for the quotations is that the way the school uses the term has different connotations than general usage. A solution to this would be to define this term early in the article. That would make the quotation marks unnecessary later on. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 00:09, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
I recommend you get an editor on here with an actual edit history, so we can be sure Arationalguy is not a sockpuppet for 4by40. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 21:45, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
I reverted back the changes on Youth For America seminar topics and location. When I updated it the day before, I cited the specific seminar topics directly from the YFA website, so this should not have been undone. Also, there was no seminar called U.S. Constitution on their program outline, nor could I find it in their text list. In addition, I don't see the need for including any outdated previous locations of the Youth For America seminars since they moved it in 2007. It's not relevant and it seems trivial. Are we going to start listing all previous locations of every organization's events on WP? -- 4by40 ( talk) 20:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Please explain recent reversions of cited material here before reverting again. Thanks. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 21:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Holy sarcasm Batman! I see it now thanks. My reasoning on including the U.S. Constitution in the Youth for America section is based on this Deseret News article, which is cited: http://archive.deseretnews.com/archive/366287/EX-DEVOTEES-WANT-TO-KNOW-WHERE-DID-THE-MONEY-GO.html. As far as changing the intro, if it's a Great Books school it's a Great Books school. That means you're using Adler's curriculum (for a base at least). If it's not a Great Books school then let's not call it that. If it's not, and you're stating Great Books of Western Civilization as if everyone knows what that means (and it should be capitalized), then you'll have to define your terms. And based on our previous discussions you prefer as snippy an intro as possible, so the best thing to do in that case may be to drop the mention altogether. I'm open to that. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 23:00, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
My goodness TrustTruth, you've been busy. I see you reverted the intro back again and you claimed I didn't post anything here about my justification for my reversion. Maybe you didn't read this discussion page very well before writing that because I did explain my reasoning up above (since it was before this section was created). And frankly the reasoning I gave was adequate to justify reversion. What you put in about Adler was inaccurate and I provided citations that covered the spectrum of my changes. I don't appreciate being bullied.-- 4by40 ( talk) 22:53, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
I've taken some time to review the edit history of this article and I see some alarming trends. I would prefer to assume good faith on the part of all WP editors, but in this case I'm finding it rather difficult to do so with a straight face. Evidence points to at least one editor treating this article as his personal hobby and assuming ownership over it. While it's common for WP entries about institutions to tend toward an overly promotional bias, this article takes the exact opposite slant of giving undue weight toward negative bias. Attempts over time by random editors to restore balance have been vigorously fended off with tendentious editing, sometimes labeled as vandalism, and intimidated away.
Indeed, this is already happening on my first day posting on this page, by my being accused of being a sock puppet within an hour of my very first post here which happens to disagree with this editor. The bias by this editor is also demonstrated by his assumption as judge and jury over the institution, which we as WP editors are not. His statement to another editor just two days ago: "You do realize this is not a real 'university' right?" reveals his bias and agenda. I'm reminded of cases in which disgruntled employees abuse WP, assuming it's their own personal forum to use as a weapon. This undermines the integrity of WP, which is not a format for such agendas.
With no fear of intimidation from disruptive editors, let's use this section to discuss ways we can balance this article with the same fair treatment granted to other liberal arts colleges and universities. This would mean representing more than just a minority POV opposing the school, but current relevant facts from a truly NPOV. For example, I know of no other WP entry with a section on past degrees no longer offered. I would like to see this balanced with what the current coursework looks like, current requirements for graduation, etc, and other items that are relevant, timely and in context.-- Arationalguy ( talk) 23:16, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
The reference on students getting credit for working for Comanity is a dead link. It looks like it was an "about" page from the Comanity website which no longer exists and I couldn't find it on the Way Back Machine. I did a Google search and found a GW.edu page that detailed what Comanity is and their connection to it, but it didn't mention anything about students receiving credit. Does anyone know a verifiable source showing that students received credit? I did find this about the GW policy on field experience:
Each undergraduate student must complete a minimum of three field-experiences in order to graduate. Practica may include substantive jobs, internships, volunteer work, etc. The field-experience must be approved in advance by the Graduation Committee.
Most field experiences range from two to four months. After completion, students submit a comprehensive 10-30 page report detailing setbacks, accomplishments, principles applied, lessons learned, and how the experience gained will be applied in their continued studies. [10]
If it is true that students received field experience credit by working for Comanity, it looks like they still would have had to do academic work for the credit to be awarded. That isn't mentioned at all in the section on Comanity. The way the Comanity section is currently written makes the field experience credit look illegitimate, but I'm not seeing any evidence to support that. I wonder if it should be removed until we have a reference?-- 4by40 ( talk) 06:21, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Having joined the Wikiproject Universities, I’ve discovered they offer a great list of “featured articles” which provide excellent models for us to follow. These have been awarded top honors for style, objectivity, content, etc. which should be very helpful in providing a standard to guide us as WP editors. That said, I’ve gone through the source document already cited for the GW History section entitled “The First Fifteen Years” (a tedious read I must admit) in order to connect the dots into a summary narrative. The most appropriate model for style, content and structure I could find in the “featured articles” list was Dartmouth, which is at the top of their list. At least up through 2005, here’s how the GW History would read if we follow Dartmouth’s arrangement of information and narrative style combined with headings like they do at Texas A&M: See User:Arationalguy/test history and comment back on this page. Thanks.-- Arationalguy ( talk) 04:48, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
{{
citation}}
: |archive-date=
requires |archive-url=
(
help). Therefore it appears that these people you earlier described as having been put out to pasture may have been fudging the history. It would be really nice if we could corroborate what The First Fifteen Years says with another source. Or, if that's not possible, at least make it clear which parts of the account come from this source alone. --
TrustTruth (
talk) 14:10, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
I added the history details for now. However, after looking at the Methodology section 4by40 added, something seems odd. I can't put my finger on it. Maybe it needs tightening up? I'll look at it again tomorrow.-- Arationalguy ( talk) 09:38, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
I just finished connecting the relevant dots in the history section to bring it up to date, as far as I can tell--minus redundancies. The narrative reads very similar to Dartmouth and others now. I did my best with available references and limited time.-- Arationalguy ( talk) 21:04, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
I propose we use the best of Wikipedia's "featured articles" for universities as a standards guide from now on. This will require some restructuring and editing of this article so that it conforms appropriately and consistently with its category. The current outline would basically remain, but with a few significant changes. Below is one proposal for the outline, based on the norms I'm finding customized to fit a liberal arts school since they tend to explain their curriculum (sort of like what 4by40 posted earlier).
This one was modeled after Georgetown University, a "featured article" and a couple of liberal arts colleges. I haven't found a "Financial" section among these model articles, so its subsections would be absorbed into the other sections where relevant. Anything else currently given it a heading in the current GWU article would also need justification in order to be plugged into one of these standard categories, or it's possible it could be added into the section for Notes. I think it would be nice to get this article into compliance and rated higher.
* 1 History 1.1 Beginnings 1.2 Founding 1.3 Independence and expansion * 2 Academics 2.1 Curriculum 2.1.1 Methodology 2.2 Faculty 2.3 Accreditation * 3 Campuses 3.1 Cedar City campus 3.2 Additional campuses 3.3 Extension and Seminar programs 3.4 Distance Studies * 4 Student life 4.1 Student groups 4.2 Activism * 5 Alumni * 6 Notes? * 7 References * 8 External links
Any thoughts on this? --
Arationalguy (
talk) 07:11, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
I just consolidated the course credit issues into a cohesive place and created a notes section for holding things until we figure out their most appropriate locations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arationalguy ( talk • contribs) 00:09, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
I've now moved the items previously under "Finances" to the Notes section -- at least for now. It appears three of the sections basically repeat the same thing, so I placed them at the bottom. Perhaps those three could be consolidated and then dissected before finding out where the information is relevant and consistent with the examples of the featured articles. Also, I haven't given much thought about what to do with the Seminars and Youth Programs. If relevant and consistent with the types of information included in the featured articles, we'll need to decide that too. Any ideas? Meanwhile, I'm off to dinner.-- Arationalguy ( talk) 00:49, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Former degrees are now in the history section, and I cleaned up the Monticello section to the relevant issues the references actually talked about -- that is, how GWU would deal with the economic recession at hand.-- Arationalguy ( talk) 22:33, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
I just researched out the Cedar City campus and filled in relevant details. The selective mentioning of the library use issue was from a 5 year old source that left a false impression that GWU students had been left unable to use it. It appears that in reality the two universities actually have an active library use agreement. The section makes sense now and lacks sensationalism, as one should expect.-- Arationalguy ( talk) 23:57, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
I think the accreditation section is better now without the issues between AALE and the Dept. of Ed., but it still should be handled more plainly and neutrally like the Gutenberg school does, even more boring than that. I checked the references and the first two links are dead, as is the fourth. What they refer to seems redundant anyway. I see no reason for it to be anything but a dry, tight summary like any other of its kind. I'll give it a shot.-- Arationalguy ( talk) 00:43, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
I've finished editing the Accreditation section for NPOV and redundancies with available info.-- Arationalguy ( talk) 04:12, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
I just reverted the reversion by TrustTruth. He claims his references were removed, when in fact I had actually fixed them since they were broken, and then distilled the content to which they linked. The only verifiable facts are that the school had a site visit from AALE that lasted a week in October of 2008, and that the AALE website lists the school as an applicant for accreditation. I referenced each item. He also reverted to language in the second paragraph that was designed to cast a shadow with regard to graduates being admitted into other graduate programs (an unknowable number) wherein I had neutralized the language to just bare facts, boring as they may be. WP is not the place for innuendo.-- Arationalguy ( talk) 18:58, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
This article is reading more and more like a promotional brochure for George Wythe University, and less like a balanced article on the subject. All mention of the school's past diploma mill-type tendencies has been removed, including myriad cited sources. Prime example: throughout the 1990s, this school was awarding degrees based on life experience. References to this practice have been removed wholesale. The article has been taken over by sustained, tendentious editing by 4by40 and Arationalguy, two (?) editors who coincidentally appeared around the same time in the last couple weeks and have edited virtually nothing but GWU-related articles. This appears to be an organized effort by individuals with close ties to the school. I am calling this a whitewash, and will add a pov tag to the article. In addition, I have placed a request for additional feedback at the Wikipedia:WikiProject Universities page. I am very interested to see the comments of editors with a diverse edit history. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 06:16, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
I removed a variety of irrelevant and borderline relevant material, much of which seems to have been designed as attack, some very dubious with respect to BLP. The material on Tracy is irrelevant to the university. I will regard reinsertion of this material in particular as a BLP violation. If anyone wants to try to write an article on her, they are welcome, but I do not think she is notable enough for the purpose. Tuition details are considered promotional and will not be included. DGG ( talk) 04:03, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
If there is evidence that this institution was once a diploma mill I believe that information should be included in this post, perhaps in a "Contreversies" section. A university that has been tagged with the diploma mill label should expect to have this information as part of their history, unlike a university that has never been tagged with such a label. WP should be a vehicle for documenting the factual good, bad, and ugly. In other words, the diploma mill evidence should be allowed because it is factual and should not be seen as necessarily biased. It seems that this point is critical to the question of inclusion/exclusion of the information that has been so hotly debated here. The evidences that I see as relevant to the diploma mill allegations, are that, while being unaccredited, the institution apparently awarded terminal degrees based on life experience only, the institution awarded terminal degrees in areas that they were completely unqualified to award (i.e. they certainly did not have the faculty necessary to award doctoral degrees in subjects already listed here), the institution was awarding degrees to its own faculty members, the institution never seems to make information available about the award dates of their early degrees, and the doctoral degrees are awarded without dissertations being made public for external review. This seems to be part of their past and should be allowed. Perhaps other WP diploma mill entries could be examined for guidance.
That being said, I also think it is important that the current practices of the institution should also be included and made primary. I think many of the recent changes do seem to illuminate how the institution has evolved. However, their checkered past cannot simply be ignored. It does not seem to represent a NPOV to only embrace the positive historical foundations while ignoring the more unseemly past practices. I don't think it is right to have it both ways in this article. I think it is important that the overseeing WP editors understand that this university has some skeletons and that the exclusion of these skeletons is certainly a NPOV issue. All facts need to be presented. Drbhh ( talk) 22:45, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
A possible starting point?
I think that the main controversy could be summed up (and perhaps written up) this way:
George Wythe University is one of the few liberal arts institutions which offers a Ph.D. degree. Controversy exists because it is difficult to evaluate the rigor and validity of GWC/U doctoral degrees due to past and current practices. Evidence indicates that doctoral degrees were awarded early in the school’s history in a wide variety of topics during a period when the faculty body consisted of only one or two members who were, based on their documented areas of academic specialty, likely not qualified in the areas in which the degrees were awarded. (Insert table or paragraph of early degrees here). Additionally, at least one case exists where a doctoral degree may have been awarded for “life experience” and the self-publication of a scholarly book (a situation more likely to merit an honorary doctorate degree) rather than after significant coursework followed by a committee-refereed dissertation. This particular case is troubling because the degree has been used by the recipient in order to achieve expert witness status for various court hearings.
It may be possible to add some clarity to these controversies if the institution followed the accepted practice of making doctoral dissertations available for public review. Access to these dissertations would allow external evaluation of the quality of scholarship and the quality of faculty supervision of past and current doctoral students. As of April 2009, searches of standard digital dissertation and dissertation abstract clearinghouses result in zero dissertations associated with GWC or GWU. While it is understandable that institutions with long histories of awarding many doctoral degrees may not have the resources or motivation to make all of their dissertations available in digital format through the established, web-based clearinghouses, it seems confusing that GWC/U has not made the effort to convert their relatively small number of dissertations for digital dispersion. Additionally, it is not clear whether hard-copies of the past or present dissertations are available in their own library. -- Drbhh ( talk) 19:50, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Obviously I'm coming in late to this discussion, but from what I've seen from other articles the controversy section is most often at the end of the article. This controversy section is right near the top giving it the feel of an obvious bias. Other articles that show my point are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenpeace, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf_education, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedagogy. I think this should be considered since bias should not be a part of Wikipedia articles. -- Truecolors ( talk) 22:30, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
"George Wythe University is one of the few liberal arts institutions which offers a Ph.D. degree." This needs to be explained. Harvard is fundamentally a liberal Arts institution that awards a PhD. i've even personally taught at an overwhelmingly liberal; arts institution that awards a few PhDs (Long Island University). Historically, essentially all 19th c. american phds except from Johns Hopkins were from such schools. As for few, what other schools of the same size do so? If what you intend to do is deprecate the quality of the degree, find a reliable secondary source that makes an appropriate comment--don;t do it by unsourced inneundo which crosses the border into SYN and OR. DGG ( talk) 23:35, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand what value is added by listing the former programs (degrees) under CRBU. I think it should be removed as irrelevant or tangential to the article. GA criterion #3b states that a good article "stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail." — Eustress talk 16:36, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
It would be helpful to go through and check every source to be sure that links are still live, and that they say what the article says they say.
1. For example, #72 is an irrelevant link; looks like it might have had relevance previously, but now seems the domain has expired.
2. "Community Outreach"?: #58 doesn't say what the article says it says (that the school took over YFA when MVI collapsed). YFA has been around for a long time--seems like there should be a better citation for it. Or maybe it should be listed in a Community Outreach section with other things GWU has involvement in, like Rotaract, overseas educational philanthropy, hosting conferences for homeschoolers, summer seminars, etc.
3. "WeSquared": The reference to WeSquared is a little tenuous and insignificant. Why is it even listed as a significant part of the article on GWU? It appears from available information that this is a business that donates a portion of its proceeds to GWU. I'm trying to imagine an article on University of Pennsylvania listing businesses that donate to it. It seems out of place in the article on the university, and in any case, the link provided is to a business entity search engine. Not particularly encyclopedic.
4. "Comanity": again, this seems extremely peripheral to the description of the university. We might as well chronicle the summer jobs selling pest control or security systems or hauling hay, as it were. The link is dead. The commentary is unsourced. Recommend removal of this section.
5. "Accreditation": a simple, "GWU is not accredited" would seem more encyclopedic than the editorial on the merits of accreditation. The notes on alums being accepted to graduate programs seems like it would be of interest to readers accessing the article, but feels like a poor fit in this section, to me.
6. "Methodology": The "according to the school" aside is unattributed and argumentative. Recommend rewording of this section with specific encyclopedic declaration of the school's methodology with high-quality sources cited (looks like most of these are sourced to the school's own stuff, and this seems appropriate to me).
7. "Alumni": Is it customary to list alumni? Seems like that would be a good idea. To only list Congressman Siljander seems rather lean. Also: are we planning to follow the case on him and keep the article up-to-date? A simple link to a Siljander page would seem to suffice; the reference to the legal case seems prejudicial against the university if we are not going to reference his other notable accomplishments as well; again, it seems overly-detailed and out of place. Not that a list of alums would be a bad idea, but if Siljander's the whole list, I recommend removal of this section.
6. "Controversies": The section on controversy raises a good question, and I honestly don't know the answer. Somebody on the WP:Universities project hopefully would know?: is it standard industry practice for universities to publish their theses and dissertations online? The wording of this section seems to have as its assumption that GW is not performing on an industry standard. If it truly is an industry standard, this is relevant as a controversy. If it is not an industry standard, this section is argumentative and prejudicial. I mean, as an alum, I know that GW has a bunch of hard-bound gold-lettered volumes in its library of theses and dissertations of grads that anyone could theoretically go peruse. But not everybody gets to Cedar City that often. It seems like publishing their graduates' writings would be a simple way to quell some of the controversy regarding the degrees awarded by GWU. Is the dissertation/thesis the property of a university, or its author? Would the school need to get a release from the author in order to make it available online? Presumably many candidates would have designs of publishing their thesis/dissertation ideas on their own as well, for profit. Does anybody know anything about this process and common practice?
7. "History": Seems like there is a public perception of continuity of operations that belies that fact that GWC/GWU has really only been in operation since 2002. Previously, "GWC" was a branch of a different school, with religious accreditation, a separate administration, different policies, different degrees offered, etc., etc. These are separate legal entities, right? Do we need to make this clear? Is it relevant? Much is being made of the way things were done differently before and after the change in legal status. Seems like it might be significant that it wasn't actually the same school. In effect, GWC:CRBU died at the end of 2001. CRBU ceased to do operations in Utah and those who had previously been employed by them worked without pay for many months. In 2002 a new school was registered in the state of Utah with different degrees, policies, board, etc. It's a fine point in some people's minds, to be sure, but we ought to consider how it should be treated in the article, if it really is just one article at all. Can somebody comment on my take on this? Am I wrong on my facts? -- Ibinthinkin ( talk) 10:59, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Is GWU a diploma mill? If it is, who says so, and how can we cite them here? If it is not, then the emphasis on a point of view that is neither generally acknowledged nor reliably cited is out of place. You can find, in any single school's history, evidence of alums that either reflect credit or disrepute on the school. You can find, in any school's history, anecdotes of people who were raving fans and people who had an axe to grind. Should we create a new template for articles that dedicate themselves to these topics? Perhaps. But this is not that template, not that article.
The original research that has characterized the approach to this article, and the care with which controversial material has been included (or material with the design of making the school seem flaky--are we SERIOUSLY arguing about Comanity still?) is just so tiresome and out of place. This article should NOT be the forum for investigative journalism. If such responsible sources already exist as make serious accusations about the school and its practices, they should be cited here, as should the school's official response to the accusations by a reliable source. But for Wikipedia to be the publisher of original research into the alleged unethical practices of a school that presumably already answers to its marketplace and the regulatory bodies which permit it to operate is a crime of irony.
There's no scandal here. GW is what it says it is, it does what it says it does. It is an unaccredited school which advertises an educational offering and accepts tuition money from students in exchange for instruction and certification of completion of coursework. Period. End of story. It has a history, and the notable aspects of that history, both the flattering and unflattering ones, are worthy of mention in this article. But the dogmatism with which this article has been edited (on both sides of the aisle of opinion) approaches religious zeal. Can we just stick to the facts and make this article as high a quality as the reference to reliable sources affords? Where there is a lack of clarity on a detail, this is not a call to arms. It is a vacancy of information. And whether or not a particular editor considers the vacancy significant is not justification for original research. An encyclopedic article is limited to, "Information on "x" is not available", at the very most; likely a more standard approach is to leave the reference out entirely. WP is what it is, and we can write a reasonably good-quality article based on the available reliable sources. If the resulting article is a travesty against reason and justice that is too great a burden for some editors to bear, there is a whole world of other options for self-expression that do not answer to the same constraints as does this encyclopedia.
As for the crime of irony: the misrepresentation is not in GW's practices, but in those of the editors who have set out to make this "encyclopedic" article, in express violation of WP's mission and policies, a unilateral call-out to GWU. -- Ibinthinkin ( talk) 12:37, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
User:Truecolors has made some recent edits removing the endowment information and modifying the history section to appear more favorable to the school. Let's discuss these edits here before running into the WP:3RR rule. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 17:20, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
I still have two concerns about the endowment and don't think it ought to be left on. First of all, BYU and St. Johns don't list any endowment. In fact, all the schools I checked either said endowment and had an amount of money or didn't say anything. Secondly, you have misrepresented the quote from DeMille. It says, "We have no endowment. . . ." It doesn't say they have an endowment of zero dollars which is what you are representing. This is completely different. If you are going to continue to include endowment then you need to prove that they have an endowment and that it's worth zero dollars. So far you have only proved that DeMille says they have no endowment at all. That is completely different. Your original research here isn't correct.
Also, you are doing the same thing where you have changed it to read, "Jefferson reading the law with Wythe." In Brooks' history where this history supposedly came from, there is a citation from Skousen's book Making of America. DeMille got his knowledge of Jefferson's education from this book which says, "He studied not only law, but also languages, physics, agriculture, mathematics, philosophy, chemistry, anatomy, zoology, botany, religion, politics, history, literature, rhetoric, and virtually every other subject imaginable." When you changed it to "Jefferson reading the law," you are literally trying to change the history to your own interpretation. We all know this is not acceptable on Wikipedia. This needs to be changed back as well.-- Truecolors ( talk) 00:20, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
The heading "Other Programs" should make note of Leadership Education Uganda. Information on this program is found here: http://newsletter.gw.edu/archive/Submissions/69 and here: http://newsletter.gw.edu/archive/FeaturedArticle/92 and here: http://newsletter.gw.edu/archive/PhotoGalleries/94-- Ibinthinkin ( talk) 07:30, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Also of note are the education conferences that GW has hosted for years: http://newsletter.gw.edu/archive/CampusNews/106, http://newsletter.gw.edu/archive/CampusNews/90. These conferences are for continuing adult education and for facilitation of Leadership Education among public, charter, private and home educators, including the facilitation of the Five Pillars Certification Oral Exams.
Also of note are the bi-annual European excursions with required readings: http://www.gw.edu/seminars/24.php.
The China Project which utilizes GW students as teachers deserves mention.
The U.N. projects in New York, Istanbul and Geneva are worthy of mention.
The Constitutional Convention simulations for students and college-bound youth are worthy of mention.
The Rotaract program chartered through GWU, and the resulting philanthropic projects deserve mention.
Certainly there are others; but to claim to be a college of statesmanship with a peculiar definition of the word seems to demand that the school must have some evidence of projects that reflect their declared purpose of blending entrepreneurship, scholarship, service and leadership. Such projects are relevant and notable, and should be mentioned in the article.-- Ibinthinkin ( talk) 07:50, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
I removed the section of the article referring to the various degrees allegedly awarded during the early years. There was no comment on my previous two attempts to engage other editors in a discussion of this proposed change, and I will nonetheless explain myself again here. The sources on these "degrees" were either dead or unreliable. There is a reason why we don't cite any old webpage or bio as a reliable source on Wikipedia. Think this through: if I put up a bio on my website that said I was awarded a degree from GWU in 2001 as a certified Horse Whisperer, should we cite that, too? What if Joe the Harvard Hater published a CV on some nazi website that declared himself to be a notable graduate of Harvard, just to be mischievous? Should that be noted in the list of Harvard's notable alumni? I'm not here to say that GW never awarded any degrees besides the ones they now offer. I'm saying, absolutely, that there are guidelines on what we can cite here, and the reasons for it are very good ones that we ignore at our peril. We simply can't use OR--especially when the reasons are compelling. That is a sure sign that it's controversial and disputed. So, friends, I have stopped trying to talk about it to nobody-there, and have simply made the edit that was needed.-- Ibinthinkin ( talk) 08:52, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
I propose that the beginnings section be removed. It is a personal account of Oliver DeMille which is covered quite well in the article dedicated to him. This article reads much more encyclopedically without this section. -- Ibinthinkin ( talk) 08:56, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Just a heads up that Checklinks indicates that several citation URLs are dead or have connection issues. Interested editors should help to rescue the links with a web archive or to find an alternate source, otherwise the information may be challenged and deleted. — Eustress talk 01:49, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I have restored the accreditation section. Please discuss here. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 16:44, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Seems like the tuition section ought to give the current rate of tuition for bachelors, masters and doctoral programs and call it good. I don't know of another university site that refers to a tuition increase of more than a year past as the encyclopedic info on its tuition. -- Ibinthinkin ( talk) 18:43, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I've added a to-do list at the top of the page for editors who would like to improve the article. — Eustress talk 19:30, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
How could the 2007 miss junior Utah be an alumnus of GW? How did she graduate that fast? Trms ( talk) 10:06, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Currently the introduction says: "George Wythe University (GWU) is a private, unaccredited,[4] liberal arts university in Cedar City, Utah. GWU's curriculum is centered on the Great Books of Western Civilization and uses discussion-based classes facilitated by "mentors".
I Think that the school is centered on Thomas Jefferson Education rather than Great Books - on the website of the school isn't TJEd mentioned? Any thoughts on this change? Trms ( talk) 12:05, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
- "We have revived the principles of leadership education used by George Wythe to train some of the most influential leaders in history. The process is principle-centered, framed on the classics of Western Civilization in literature, history, science, the arts, and philosophy, grounded in a belief in God and natural law, and crowned in the discipline of real-world application under the guidance of a committed mentor."
Ok, I just updated the fact that the new president is Shane Schulthies (which happened way back in June) and I've noticed a lot of other junk posted in this article that is outdated, irrelevant, and even serving people with an interest in selling books, etc.. I'm reading up on how Wikipedia works, and that seems inappropriate. For example, this endless promotion of TJED and using the GWU Press as an excuse. Fact is, there has been no GWU Press for at least over a year, but that's a red herring anyway because TJED is not even relevant. I have attended GWU classes for a number of semesters and I hear nothing about TJED. This article should not be serving the personal interests of anyone. I'm going to clean up a few things that are clearly out of date and unsubstantiated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Felidae2 ( talk • contribs) 19:18, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
Alright, I think I've updated most of the items that were problems. I can see a few more errors, but need to do a little research first. Felidae2 ( talk) 05:58, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
I just went in and eliminated the redundancy of saying "unaccredited" twice in the same paragraph. It fit better to keep it in the latter sentence since it had added explanation so I took out the first one. I consider this a minor change but thought I would explain it. I also added "classical" to explain liberal arts better.-- Truecolors ( talk) 21:06, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
I removed non-encyclopedic content regarding YFA. The history of YFA can be included, discussed and disputed on its own page. A simple explanation of the program suffices here. For the record, YFA was defunct for ten years when GW took it up. Its location has been: Monticello, 2007-2009; Cedar City, 2005-2006; Mammoth Valley, 2003-2004. Ibinthinkin ( talk) 18:20, 6 June 2009 (UTC) Disagree. You called this non-factual in your edit; it is factual and substantiated by the sources. Re-added. Cite your sources on the timeline. -- TrustTruth ( talk) 01:03, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Back to the point: discussion of YFA here should be as respects GW. An internal link to the content of YFA's own article is more appropriate than discussing its history here. Ibinthinkin ( talk) 15:10, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
I believe this section should be removed. It is a privately-owned business with a claim of intentions to donate to the college. It does not provide any essential services on behalf of the college, and cannot reasonably be called (as it is in the current language) a website of the college. It is a for-profit business operated by "friends" of the college with the apparent intention of profiting from a relationship with the college's marketplace, while providing a means of generating interest in the college. I think it's out of place here, unless we want to include other such businesses. That seems a little strained, and is likely in violation of WP policy of promotion of businesses, products and services... Thoughts? Ibinthinkin ( talk) 18:28, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
I am not aware of any statement by the university that it is not seeking accreditation of the graduate programs. However, the current application with AALE is for undergraduate programs, which is specified in the article. We can't prove a negative, and should not comment on the "intent" of the school, or the process of accreditation for graduate programs which may or may not be underway, but undisclosed. -- Ibinthinkin ( talk) 14:37, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
I changed the language from "removal" of Shanon Brooks. To say that a new president was appointed obviates the stepping down of the previous one. Furthermore, "removal" sounds like he got fired, and that's nowhere reflected in the information the University provides. In fact, he remained on the board for months afterward and continues to promote the school in his work in the private sector.
As for the "disappearance" of the chancellor position, this again was worded in a way to somehow reflect that there was a falling out with the individual in question--in this case, Oliver DeMille. DeMille and the University both noted that DeMille's health precluded his continuing in administration. He continues as a board member and as a mentor of graduate students. -- Ibinthinkin ( talk) 14:49, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
I removed the language regarding the dba filing. The designations for academic institutions (such as "institute," "academy," "college," "university) are carefully defined and regulated. The filing of a dba--while being a necessary administrative detail allowing an entity to conduct business under a particular name--does not grant one authority to use the designation "university" in the state of Utah. Ibinthinkin ( talk) 14:37, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
As stated elsewhere in the article, the plans for expansion include developing from small colleges into multi-college campuses. The strategic plan for Monticello--from the first time it was announced in August 2008 at the groundbreaking--included one small building for classroom space that would later become an administrative hub for multiple college buildings. The "modifications" to the plans for expansion in Monticello are not substantive, but chronological, in nature. That is to say: Monticello was always going to start small and grow strategically to maximize the usage of the land there. The announcements of February 2009 did not specify changes to this plan, but rather indicated that the current economic crisis demanded that the pace be commensurate with sustainable growth. Ibinthinkin ( talk) 14:55, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I'm not sure where to put this so I made a new topic. I've noticed that most schools' wikipedia pages display their seal rather than a logo. I found the seal here on this page but I have no idea how to import it here to wikipedia. http://www.gw.edu/ways_to_give/ Maybe someone else will know how to do that. Oh, and sorry for not signing earlier. Felidae2 ( talk) 05:55, 14 October 2010 (UTC)