![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | Archive 31 | Archive 32 | Archive 33 | Archive 34 | Archive 35 | → | Archive 40 |
Could somebody please fix this page so that it's readable? User:Zoe| (talk) 03:15, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Someone has created
I Second that. Wow his rating has dropped yet another 5 percent. We need to update this!-- Ewok Slayer 18:37, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Wasn't Bush a cheerleader in college or whatever? If so this is worth brief mention in the first part about his early life since it is a frequently sited (or shown) thing. It may not say anything about Bush really nor is it a detail that is significant in itself of course and I'm sure there are loads of other small details that are not mentioned but this detail is worthy of mention IMHO because it has became a frequently cited part of Bush's early life. A short & simple line will do... 60.234.141.76 12:50, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
The second paragraph in the section titled religious beliefs and practices, seems to be pretty weak:
Is there a source for the first sentence discussing his Thursday lunch bible studies? I don't doubt it, but would prefer it to be sourced. The third sentence is pure POV and since it came through the BBC, well known to be hostile to Bush and American conservatives in general, I see little but hot air to the whole thing that Bush would actually state that he was instructed by God to invade Iraq and Afghanistan...especially since his pressman denies it and the "source" of the babble, Mahmoud Abbas, denies it as well.-- MONGO 16:50, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
<-Back to left -- User:MONGO states: The third sentence is pure POV and since it came through the BBC, well known to be hostile to Bush and American conservatives in general .... . There is only one POV evident in that comment, what a load of baloney. The BBC remains one of the pre-eminent reliable world wide news sources and carry far more credibility than this one editor's personal POV. -- 84.66.163.150 15:37, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
A new section is necessary to talk about Bush religious believes. It is not a secret that Bush talks about God many times in public and that takes pride of being a "Christian". Besides his religiosity has had an impact in the way he conducts himself, his government and all the US international affairs. -- tequendamia 21:59, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
How many edits, out of the last say, 250, were not vandalism or vandalism-reverts? Hall Monitor 19:37, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
I really have no clue on the development end. I know there's a lot of pestering on his page, but perhaps post on Jimbo's talk. At least there the idea will elicit comments and this isn't something that could (or should) be implemented at the Admin level. Perhaps just cut and paste these comments. Marskell 20:48, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Another interesting statistic to compile would be the average time between vandalism and reversion of that vandalism. This would give us an even more complete picture of what happens to this article. a ndroid 79 21:12, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
This would be interesting, but I think the point is ultimately secondary to the initial suggestions and I don't know if you need spend the time. Do we really need an extensive break-down of revert timing to show that this page has become perenially unstable? I think what you suggest has been done, incidentally, by a third party (based on a Jimbo interview I watched) and the result was under five minutes for reverting obvious vandalism.
To get back on point: should we block editing to everybody, nobody, to anons etc.? What is possible? I'd suggest:
The ability to block in this fashion should be absolutely a limited option. Indeed, you could call it the "current U.S. President block." I watch Bill Clinton, World War II and Terri Schiavo amongst others, all of which get random vandalism. None compare to this page. And this page, looking at the history, is in some ways ceasing to be useful. At any given moment the text is as likely to consist of I SCREWED YOUR MOM as anything else. We do need, I think, a unique form of blocking that isn't a permanent lock-down but does address the problem. Marskell 23:01, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
I read through this section and it didn't seem biased. Although it should be noted that earlier this week his popularity amongst the african-american community showed only 2% favor in the polls. glocks out 00:13, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Though oft repeated on the web, is there any factual source for the statement: "In total, Bush has appointed more women and minorities to high level positions within his administration than any other U.S. President"?-- RichardMathews 21:19, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I added a couple of sentences to mention the fact that Bush introduced the first ban on racial profiling among federal agents. There were exceptions to the ban relating to possible terrorist threats, but I felt it was not reasonable to say flatly that he was a supporter of racial profiling when he has done more to restrict it than his predecessors did. (NYT) Ordinary Person 08:36, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
This page obviously isn't a candidate for long term protection. Just revert vandalism. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 02:26, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I restored the page move thingie right away.
RN has restored the incorrect notice. However much fun it might be to have a misleading notice to scare people off from naughty editing, I don't think it's a good idea to mislead people about Wikipedia blocking policy even in HTML comments. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 02:44, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Watching and helping to revert much of the vandalism here, I've noticed that all of it seems to be just people who want to express their outrage at President Bush and feel that their voice is being suppressed. Yet, outrage against President Bush is part of the story. The lengths that people are willing to travel to speak their mind about the president is useful information. I would go so far as to say that our article incorrectly captures the feelings of people and what they say about the leader of the United States. People who want to know the real scoop about Bush ask their friends instead of coming here, because our resource is sanitized and politically correct to the point of fault. There should be a place for people to express their outrage. This outrage is part of the story of President Bush. People want to know what others feel about the president, how divided the country has become under his leadership, and what happens when you type "worst president ever" at Google.com and press the [I'm Feeling Lucky] button. If we put a reference to a main Criticism article in the first paragraph, it give people a place to express themselves in a constructive way, and would certainly be more informative than what baseball team President Bush owns.
Perhaps we could reword the first paragraph as follows:
How does that sound? -- Zephram Stark 22:58, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Until some sort of professional, peer-reviewed, and neutral investigation is conducted by respectable sources regarding whether or not Bush is, in fact, the "most heavily-critized president in history", it shouldn't be mentioned in Wikipedia. Certainly there is a large amount of criticism, but any serious research would have to take into account an immense amount of information from each era for such a statement to be made accurately.
In the meantime, the problem with vandals on this page would be best resolved by having the young, frustrated, and liberal vandals given a good smack to the face. That's just silly, though. -- tomf688{ talk} 02:40, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
If you introduced the article on Criticism of George W. Bush as personal opinions, and placed a big notice on the top of the article disclaiming any relationship of the personal opinions expressed with the official position of Wikipedia, I'm sure you would be alright. It's done all the time in the commentary on DVDs. In such a case however, I think you would find that the Criticism sub-article polices itself. Critics of George W. Bush don't want to come across as mindless idiots. If you gave them a place to put some thought into their criticism, I think you would find more constructive arguments than "Bush is dumb." As for whether or not they are United States citizens, I don't think that matters. The policies of President Bush extend far beyond our borders, which is entirely the reason that non-Americans are critics. Their opinions are relevant too. -- Zephram Stark 15:15, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
I think it's pretty evident that Bush has recieved more instances of public criticism than any other president, if for no other reason than because millions of additional people are able to make critical public remarks via the internet, but if you don't want to note it, that's fine. Perhaps we could reword the first paragraph as follows:
How does that sound? -- Zephram Stark 15:22, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
"Wikipedia is not a blog," which is exactly what you're advocating. Further, "I'm talking about a more productive forum for vandals" is a contradiction in terms. A page like you describe would be a hopeless mess. Marskell 16:30, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
It's certainly your choice. If you want to treat vandalism like Bush treats terrorism, I'm sure you'll get the same results: more of it. Have fun. I won't be helping to stem the rising tide any longer. -- Zephram Stark 17:30, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Wow, this is a silly discussion. A "add your own personal opinion here" section would turn this encyclopedia article into a not-an-encyclopedia article. It's contrary to Wikipedia's core goals and principles. a ndroid 79 18:25, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
No matter the language in which this idea is framed, at its core, it is still contrary to WP:NOT, WP:NOR, and WP:V. I see no reason to continue this discussion. a ndroid 79 19:26, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
I propose that we give it a try and see what happens. The critics can have one month to get their article up to Wikipedia standards. On November 17, we will review the critic's page and the effect on vandalism to the George Bush article. If vandalism has significantly dropped off and the critics page is within Wikipedia standards, we will leave the link to the critic's page in the first paragraph of the article. Agree or Disagree?
Let's not participate in this thread. By doing so, we are feeding the trolls. (For more information, see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Zephram Stark and decide for yourself.) sɪzlæk [ +t, +c, +m, +e ] 22:08, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Next thread. -- kizzle 01:27, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to try to sitetrack all the political/POV crap for a moment with the Trivia section I just added at the end of the article. I think it's a good spot for minor stuff like only father of twins, second son-of-a-president, etc. A fair amount of the other wiki articles on presidents have a trivia section in the same spot. What do y'all think? EricN 09:19, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
The following Presidents have a trivia section in their article: Washington, Monroe, Q Adams, Van Buren, Lincoln, Grant, Garfield, B Harrison, McKinley, Taft, Wilson, Harding, LBJ, Nixon, Bush Sr., Clinton. Some of the Bush Jr. factoids are a little discordant in the article where they currently rest.
I know the article is already very long, but the purpose of this new section is not to add length, but to collate the out of place sentences from the rest of the article. For example, I don't think John Quincy Adams is sufficiently relevant to GWB that he needs mentioning in the first paragraph of the summary.
MONGO, if you see that an edit is done in good faith, can you at least leave it up longer than two minutes, even if you disagree with it? On this article it can get buried pretty quickly before anyone else can see if they like it. Thanks. EricN 09:19, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Request rescinded. EricN 21:22, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Why does article mention (in the first paragraph) whom Bush defeated in the 2000 and 2004 elections? At the least it needs to be re-written. One sentence reads, "Bush was elected to a second term, defeating Democratic Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts." But Bush also defeated many other national candidates. There is no need to mention who was defeated, only that he won. In the presidential campaigns the information about Gore is repeated, and is redundant. At the minimum, it should be phrased to say "the leading candidate was Democrat Al Gore, the incumbent Vice President," or John Kerry in 2004. I'm looking to not only clear up a misconception that there was only one candidate running against Bush, but to also reduce redundancy in the article. Perhaps the same should be true of all political figures. The first paragraph can state, IMO, when they were elected, and when they were sworn in, but a seperate section for each campaign should be made to discuss the actual process, including the alternative candidates, how many electoral/popular votes he received, etc. glocks out 18:12, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
shift left I agree that the primary focus should be GWB the person and that much of this article can be trimmed. However, not so many readers would visit this article if GWB retired as Texas Gov. I think this article, as the main GWB one, needs to fill a dual role of covering the person and the presidency. That's why I think the huge US-related events from 2001-2008 are summary worthy, even though they aren't directly related to GWB the person.
In 1999, near the start of the 2000 Republican Presidential primary race, Tucker Carlson interviewed George W. Bush for Talk Magazine. Carlson wrote: - - "In the weeks before the execution, Bush says, a number of protesters came to Austin to demand clemency for Karla Fay Tucker. "Did you meet with any of them?" I ask. Bush whips around and stares at me. "No, I didn't meet with any of them," he snaps, as though I've just asked the dumbest, most offensive question ever posed. "I didn't meet with Larry King either when he came down for it. I watched his interview with Tucker, though. He asked her real difficult questions like, "What would you say to Governor Bush?" "What was her answer?" I wonder. "Please," Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, "don't kill me." I must look shocked--ridiculing the pleas of a condemned prisoner who has since been executed seems odd and cruel--because he immediately stops smirking." Bush denies that he had intended to make light of the issue.
I added the source just like Mongo wanted and the some jerk reverts the whole thing whithout saying why -- Grazon
Ok thanks for explaining that. -- Grazon
And, that summary of the interview interjects a lot of speculation on the author's part. There would be no way of confirming any of the feelings the interviewer got. Also, I agree with Rhobite: this should focus on the "big picture", not evrything that happens. Think about writing this from a perspective of 100 years down the line. What will be important to people then? -- Lord Vold e mort (Dark Mark) 20:43, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Why are so many critics cited on this page? It seems like every other sentence or statement of Bush's is met with several sentences of what his critics say. Wouldn't it be more NPOV to simply state what he says, and perhaps mention "there are criticisms of this policy" or something along those lines? -- JamesR1701E 21:08, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
As in the 2000 election, there were charges raised alleging voting irregularities, especially in Ohio, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. In 2004 they did not lead to recounts that were expected to affect the result. After a congressional electoral contest -- the second in American history -- failed with votes of 1-74 by the Senate and 31-267 in the House, a lawsuit challenging the result in Ohio was withdrawn, because the congressional certification of the electoral votes had rendered the case moot. The challenge had been based on a report issued by the Democrats on the House Judiciary committee alleging " massive and unprecedented voter irregularities and anomalies."
I've been staring at this paragraph for half an hour, and I still don't see where to begin. It's a messy summary of an even messier article, and it doesn't do much to inform the reader. Unless someone wants to rewrite it from scratch, I'm going to delete it. EricN 21:41, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm trying to write about Bush's playing the guitar on August 30th.
how is what I've written not a NPOV?
grazon 22:17, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
funny EricN.
grazon 22:21, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
The entire Hurricane Katrina section isn't about George W. Bush. It doesn't even relate directly to him. It's about Hurricane Katrina, and should be in the Hurricane Katrina article, not the George W. Bush article. As a matter of fact, a lot of this article should be in here because it's either about the Bush Administration, or world events, and not about the person that is George W. Bush. I don't want to put a bunch of "mergeto" tags on this article either. I would hate to see Geraldo Rivera's article receive the same treatment as this one, we'd have a paragraph on every interview he's ever done. glocks out 22:15, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
what I wrote was about Bush.
grazon 22:50, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
his playing the guitar as people drowned matters.
grazon 23:11, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
There's been some edit warring over the hidden block warning at the top of the article ("Anyone who vandalizes the page may be blocked for 24 hours or more without further warning"). In order to get consensus on whether it is OK to block people for vandalizing a high-visibility article, I started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Blocking policy#Instant blocking for vandalizing high-traffic articles. Rhobite 00:21, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Bush has openly admitted his membership to this secret society. Shouldn't the article at least mention that link and point to the article on Skull and Bones? I tried adding a single line mentioning this in passing, but it was removed. (preceding comment by 69.169.130.131) -- Ashenai ( talk) 11:13, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
In August 2004, a "Cyber Security Alert" from US-CERT was issued concerning the main vote tabulating software in the electronic voting machines provided by Diebold, [5] warning that "a vulnerability exists due to an undocumented backdoor account, which could allow a local or remote authenticated malicious user to modify votes". Corrective action to close this software loophole was never taken, and it is yet unclear what effect this may have had on election results.
It would take some major word twisting to get this paragraph to even mention Bush's name. I think that's a good benchmark for something that doesn't belong in a Bush article. EricN 16:06, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
In July of 2002, Bush cut off all funding to the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA). Bush claimed that the UNFPA supported forced abortions and sterilizations in the People's Republic of China.
I expect this para has been through the wash a bunch of times, but I don't like the wording. "cut off all funding" seems incorrect (it's also funded by other nations) and POV (funds were shifted to a US agency with similar goals...maybe mention the isolationist aspect?). For now, I'm just going to add the least POV reference I could find (BBC News). Anyone want to try to improve this one? EricN 18:44, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I've seen a few things go into the Major Events in the introductory section. There's the spy plane incident, Space Shuttle Columbia's demise, Katrina, War on Terror (which isn't an event really), Iraq, and 9/11. Not all of these are there, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some that used to be there. We should decide what major events are going to go in here. glocks out 22:11, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Major events during Bush's presidency involving the United States include the September 11, 2001 attacks, the 2003 Invasion of Iraq, and the 2005 Hurricane Katrina disaster.
What's the purpose of including this paragraph?
In the week following the attacks on the twin towers in Manhattan in September 2001, President Bush made a brief but celebrated speech near the site of the collapsed buildings while surrounded by site workers. CNN reported, "As he stood on a pile of rubble in Manhattan, some people in the crowd shouted they couldn't hear him." In reply, Bush stated that the attackers would soon be "hearing from all of us". [6]
Why are we picking out this specific speech and not all of his others?
glocks out 22:38, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
The page is now 92 KB. I can tell this is a pretty important issue, because there are something like 30 talk pages, but as per Wikipedia:Article Size, we have to break this off into sub-pages, DESPERATELY. Once this is done (effectively), I think this should be re-submitted for peer review. It is truly a great example of how a topic like this can bring people together to create a great encyclopedia article. Let's see Brittanica try to top this! -[[ User:Mys e kurity| Mysekurity]] [[ additions | e-mail]] 00:35, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
What's with the spacing on this article? - Roy Boy 800 00:42, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
This paragraph is pure hearsay and unsupported accusations:
If you include this for George Bush, why doesn't the section on Bill Clinton mention that his brother Roger Clinton, himself a convicted drug trafficker, is heard on an Arkansas State Police surveillance audio tape saying "Got to get some [cocaine] for my brother; he’s got a nose like a vacuum cleaner" and in 1990 Sharlene Wilson, an informant for the Seventh Judicial drug task force in Arkansas, testified under oath that she had supplied Governor Bill Clinton with cocaine? All the Bill Clinton section says is this bit of left wing spin:
Either the rumors and unsubstantiated accusations against Bush should be treated the same as those against Clinton or we need to the cocaine rumors and accusation related to Clinton added to his article.
This paragraph in the Bush article should be removed - not to mention it is covered in an entire hearsay/unsupported accusation section called "George W. Bush substance abuse controversy"
- LastVisibleDog 01:14, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry for the repetition but I just had to point out...one hour, eight reversions. Let's say each bit of vandalism was up two minutes, then for a quarter of the last hour an interested browser coming here from Google or whatever was seeing vandalism (George vagina amongst others) not the true page. Sure, as Tony said above "just revert" but I still suggest that this page, at least for certain periods, is effectively useless. I really think we should block anons from editing. Marskell 15:16, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
But the vast majority of the bullshit here is drive-by stuff. Multiple anons hitting it randomly. Yes, of course, a "dedicated vandal" with a username can cause serious trouble but they can do that anyway. I think partial protection would drastically cut the vandalism. Marskell 15:55, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I think the software solution is possible. However, the anons have plenty of other places to edit. Drive by anon contributions to this page are almost always vandalism. As said above, partial protection would prevent most vandals, the serious ones would create sockpuppet accounts regardless. Ban e s 18:15, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Bush has said that he did not use illegal drugs at any time since 1974. [9] He has denied the allegation made by J.H. Hatfield in the book Fortunate Son: George W. Bush and the Making of an American President (1999) that family influence was used to expunge the record of an arrest for cocaine possession in 1972, but has refused to discuss whether he used drugs before 1974. [10] Hatfield, a convicted felon (solicitation of capital murder) [11], was unable to provide any evidence for his accusation and his publisher, St. Martin's Press, suspended publication and recalled his book because of this unsupported accusation about George Bush [12].
A whole paragraph written in the negative? If someone wants to reword this so it reads as "A said this. B happened. C responded", etc. go ahead. I'm dropping it in its current form of "A denied this, B refused this, C couldn't provide this". EricN 16:18, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
How long does a newly registered user wait (hours/days) before they receive the ability to move pages? Hall Monitor 18:51, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
United Kingdom Prime Minister Tony Blair, who has declared he shares a close political relationship with the United States known as the "Special Relationship" was asked by several parts of the media and anti-war protesters in Britain to apologize for backing his friend Bush just prior to the 2005 UK General Election, he declined, saying "I can't say sorry, I have nothing to be sorry about, I believe I did the right thing".
Image:Bush approval ratings line graph Feb 2001 to Oct 2005.png|thumb|250px|left|Bush approval rating from February 2001 to October 2005. Notable spikes in his approval rating followed the September 11, 2001 attacks, and the beginning of the 2003 Iraq conflict.
Autopilot updated this today, and it has already been cut and reverted. It is clearly relevant to the article, but the latest graph is not accurate to the CNN/Gallup poll data it references. I'm reverting to Aug/05 graph until the update is fixed. EricN 21:47, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
RE: [Image:Bush_approval_ratings_line_graph_Feb_2001_to_Oct_2005.png] Bush's approval rating (according to CNN/USA Today/Gallop) was 40 percent in September and 39% this month. [13] [14]. So, you're right, the graph I made didn't fit the numbers, it didn't take September into account. The line is going to show a more severe drop now (between August and September, with some leveling between September and October. This graph is by no means POV, how can it be? It's a mathematical representation of poll numbers. Anyway, I will not change the article to fit my recent correction, I'll leave that to someone else. If anyone else feels that my graph is too "POV," by all means, edit it, I just don't understand how a 39% can be anything but a 39% Autopilots 17:38, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
The following paragraph contains a completely unsupported allegation and an innuendo statement. The facts related to the "expunge" accusation have been removed to "juice up" the story. The allegation was made by a convicted felon in a book of which the publisher cancelled and recalled because the allegation could not be supported in any way (the source of the allegation was removed - I guess somebody wanted to hide the fact this allegation was totally debunked). The tapes only present innuendo based on a hypothetical statement - maybe Bush did it and maybe he did not. This paragraph has been turned into spin and must be removed:
The George W. Bush substance abuse controversy article is where this kind of information should reside.
On a second point, this statement is factually incorrect: "He has denied allegations that family influence was used to expunge the record" - there was only one accusation - made by a convicted felon in a failed attempt to sell books.
- LastVisibleDog 23:32, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Well, I thought that the article was in serious need of being smaller, so I took the "further reading and info" and branched it off into a daughter article. It's not much, but I think it's a good idea (the list didn't REALLY belong in the article anyways, as NONE of us are actually going to go through and make sure that all the books are notable--really, let's be honest ;) ).
Any thoughts? Matt Yeager 03:53, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
There is debate about whether the U.S. had evidence of Iraqi WMD or ties between Iraq and Al-Qaeda. A bipartisan intelligence review found no credible evidence that Saddam Hussein possessed WMD, although the report did conclude that Hussein's government was actively attempting to acquire technology that would allow Iraq to produce WMD's as soon as U.N. sanctions were lifted. The report also concluded that Saddam's missiles had a range greater than that allowed by the UN sanctions. The report found "no collaborative relationship" between Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda. Bush has defended his decision, arguing that "The world is safer today."
I need a reference to the report quoting "no collaborative relationship". I want to pull WMDs out of this paragraph, since they are covered in the previous one, but that leaves only:
There is debate about whether the U.S. had evidence of ties between Iraq and Al-Qaeda. A bipartisan intelligence review found "no collaborative relationship" between Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda. Bush has defended his decision, arguing that "The world is safer today."
...which is pretty thin. Anyone have this reference? I can't leave the quote in without it. EricN 12:19, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
I would like to rewrite this section as it is convoluted. The following is what I propose:
In the 2004 election, Bush carried 31 of 50 states for 286 Electoral College votes. A record voter turnout gave him more popular votes than any previous presidential candidate (62,040,610 votes/50.7%). Challenger, Senator John Kerry (Democrat), carried 20 states, earning him 286 Electoral College votes (59,028,111 votes/48.3%). A faithless elector, pledged to Kerry, voted for Democratic Vice Presidential running mate, John Edwards, giving him one Electoral College vote. No other candidate won any Electoral College votes. Notable third-party candidates included Independent and Reform candidate Ralph Nader (463,653 votes/0.4%), Libertarian candidate Michael Badnarik (397,265 votes/0.32%), Constitution Party candidate Michael Peroutka (144,498 votes/0.1%), and Green Party candidate David Cobb (119,859 votes/0.1%). Congress debated potential election irregularities, including allegations of voting irregularities in Ohio and electronic voting machine fraud.
Bush was inaugurated for his second term on 20 January 2005. The oath was administered by Chief Justice of the United States William Rehnquist. Bush's inaugural address centered mainly on a theme of spreading freedom and democracy around the world.
"From the perspective of a single day, including this day of dedication, the issues and questions before our country are many. From the viewpoint of centuries, the questions that come to us are narrowed and few. Did our generation advance the cause of freedom? And did our character bring credit to that cause?" [16]
See also: U.S. presidential election, 2004
glocks out 22:08, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
In the 2004 election Bush carried 31 of 50 states and 286 Electoral College votes to defeat Senator John Kerry. A record voter turnout, split 50.7% for Bush, 48.3% for Kerry, gave both men more votes than any previous presidential candidate. Congress debated potential election irregularities. Notable third-party candidates included ...[snip]
Atavistic 05:12, 25 October 2005 (UTC)==Let me get this straight== This time the article is locked because the article was vandalized in a way that makes Bush look good? That's a first-- 172.170.158.50 03:52, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Articles with current figures (politicians, businesses, people, countries etc) can not be composed without bias unless very strict boundries are layed down. Its all very well to source a newspaper, website or what have you, but as we all know these things have owners, writers, editors etc that have control over what they put out, and they themselves get their information off of someone else who in turn... Usually the facts can be filtered out by an unbiased person, but when the topic is a controversial president you're going to be hard pressed to find an unbiased person to compose the article. What ive said isnt new. I frequent the wiki projects as they are one of the most unbiased and complete sources around. Disputed articles are reasonably rare, although i have noticed that on some articles, the topic is given the benifit of the doubt, in others it goes the other way. it is a fine line, there will be a way to fix it, if anyone agrees with me i'd be happy to spend some time trying to come up with a solution, if not i can live with filtering the rare article as i read it. Atavistic 05:12, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
This page has grown out of control. It is fine if someone already knows a lot about Bush and can use the current outline to go tho the hurricane katrina section or something, but for other people It would be impossible to trace his presidency over time. I am suggesting we add an outline broken up into mounths that spells out in chronological order each action and event in his presidency. Like a tax cut here, court nomination here or a hurricane. This outline would be at the beginning of the page and each event in the timeline would link to diffrent sections in the page, what do you guys think?---- Ewok Slayer 16:08, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Uh, there should be s "spin off" article "The Presidency of George W. Bush" Rex071404 216.153.214.94 05:06, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry bout that Appleboy and anon. With these wide diffs hard to see all the changes on screen sometimes. I reverted it back when Fire Star did a rollback, should stick now. - Roy Boy 800 04:43, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
About the sentence he married Laura Welch, a Democrat librarian originally from Midland.
Autopilots 06:05, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone have a link to the Bush family's alleged connection to the Nazi party? -- Thearticulator 21:21, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
The Prescott Bush article has some external links at the bottom, as well as reporting on his Nazi ties. Autopilots 00:43, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Following a bit of...fun...with moving, and recursive redirects; deletion and undeletion and complete loss of article history, we've now got this talk page protected against moves. Rob Church Talk | FAHD 03:54, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
This paragraph needs to be re-written. It basically compares Bush to Clinton. Why not to every President? It should mention that there is a movement supporting impeaching Bush with % support. It doesn't need to be compared to Clinton because this is an encyclopedia, not a news article. glocks out 00:22, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
In a sign of the continuing partisan division of the nation, more than two-in-five (42%) voters say that, if it is found that President Bush did not tell the truth about his reasons for going to war with Iraq, Congress should hold him accountable through impeachment. While half (50%) of respondents do not hold this view, supporters of impeachment outweigh opponents in some parts of the country. (...) A large majority of Democrats (59%) say they agree that the President should be impeached if he lied about Iraq, while just three-in-ten (30%) disagree. Among President Bush’s fellow Republicans, a full one-in-four (25%) indicate they would favor impeaching the President under these circumstances, while seven-in-ten (70%) do not. Independents are more closely divided, with 43% favoring impeachment and 49% opposed.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | Archive 31 | Archive 32 | Archive 33 | Archive 34 | Archive 35 | → | Archive 40 |
Could somebody please fix this page so that it's readable? User:Zoe| (talk) 03:15, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Someone has created
I Second that. Wow his rating has dropped yet another 5 percent. We need to update this!-- Ewok Slayer 18:37, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Wasn't Bush a cheerleader in college or whatever? If so this is worth brief mention in the first part about his early life since it is a frequently sited (or shown) thing. It may not say anything about Bush really nor is it a detail that is significant in itself of course and I'm sure there are loads of other small details that are not mentioned but this detail is worthy of mention IMHO because it has became a frequently cited part of Bush's early life. A short & simple line will do... 60.234.141.76 12:50, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
The second paragraph in the section titled religious beliefs and practices, seems to be pretty weak:
Is there a source for the first sentence discussing his Thursday lunch bible studies? I don't doubt it, but would prefer it to be sourced. The third sentence is pure POV and since it came through the BBC, well known to be hostile to Bush and American conservatives in general, I see little but hot air to the whole thing that Bush would actually state that he was instructed by God to invade Iraq and Afghanistan...especially since his pressman denies it and the "source" of the babble, Mahmoud Abbas, denies it as well.-- MONGO 16:50, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
<-Back to left -- User:MONGO states: The third sentence is pure POV and since it came through the BBC, well known to be hostile to Bush and American conservatives in general .... . There is only one POV evident in that comment, what a load of baloney. The BBC remains one of the pre-eminent reliable world wide news sources and carry far more credibility than this one editor's personal POV. -- 84.66.163.150 15:37, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
A new section is necessary to talk about Bush religious believes. It is not a secret that Bush talks about God many times in public and that takes pride of being a "Christian". Besides his religiosity has had an impact in the way he conducts himself, his government and all the US international affairs. -- tequendamia 21:59, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
How many edits, out of the last say, 250, were not vandalism or vandalism-reverts? Hall Monitor 19:37, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
I really have no clue on the development end. I know there's a lot of pestering on his page, but perhaps post on Jimbo's talk. At least there the idea will elicit comments and this isn't something that could (or should) be implemented at the Admin level. Perhaps just cut and paste these comments. Marskell 20:48, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Another interesting statistic to compile would be the average time between vandalism and reversion of that vandalism. This would give us an even more complete picture of what happens to this article. a ndroid 79 21:12, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
This would be interesting, but I think the point is ultimately secondary to the initial suggestions and I don't know if you need spend the time. Do we really need an extensive break-down of revert timing to show that this page has become perenially unstable? I think what you suggest has been done, incidentally, by a third party (based on a Jimbo interview I watched) and the result was under five minutes for reverting obvious vandalism.
To get back on point: should we block editing to everybody, nobody, to anons etc.? What is possible? I'd suggest:
The ability to block in this fashion should be absolutely a limited option. Indeed, you could call it the "current U.S. President block." I watch Bill Clinton, World War II and Terri Schiavo amongst others, all of which get random vandalism. None compare to this page. And this page, looking at the history, is in some ways ceasing to be useful. At any given moment the text is as likely to consist of I SCREWED YOUR MOM as anything else. We do need, I think, a unique form of blocking that isn't a permanent lock-down but does address the problem. Marskell 23:01, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
I read through this section and it didn't seem biased. Although it should be noted that earlier this week his popularity amongst the african-american community showed only 2% favor in the polls. glocks out 00:13, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Though oft repeated on the web, is there any factual source for the statement: "In total, Bush has appointed more women and minorities to high level positions within his administration than any other U.S. President"?-- RichardMathews 21:19, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I added a couple of sentences to mention the fact that Bush introduced the first ban on racial profiling among federal agents. There were exceptions to the ban relating to possible terrorist threats, but I felt it was not reasonable to say flatly that he was a supporter of racial profiling when he has done more to restrict it than his predecessors did. (NYT) Ordinary Person 08:36, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
This page obviously isn't a candidate for long term protection. Just revert vandalism. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 02:26, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I restored the page move thingie right away.
RN has restored the incorrect notice. However much fun it might be to have a misleading notice to scare people off from naughty editing, I don't think it's a good idea to mislead people about Wikipedia blocking policy even in HTML comments. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 02:44, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Watching and helping to revert much of the vandalism here, I've noticed that all of it seems to be just people who want to express their outrage at President Bush and feel that their voice is being suppressed. Yet, outrage against President Bush is part of the story. The lengths that people are willing to travel to speak their mind about the president is useful information. I would go so far as to say that our article incorrectly captures the feelings of people and what they say about the leader of the United States. People who want to know the real scoop about Bush ask their friends instead of coming here, because our resource is sanitized and politically correct to the point of fault. There should be a place for people to express their outrage. This outrage is part of the story of President Bush. People want to know what others feel about the president, how divided the country has become under his leadership, and what happens when you type "worst president ever" at Google.com and press the [I'm Feeling Lucky] button. If we put a reference to a main Criticism article in the first paragraph, it give people a place to express themselves in a constructive way, and would certainly be more informative than what baseball team President Bush owns.
Perhaps we could reword the first paragraph as follows:
How does that sound? -- Zephram Stark 22:58, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Until some sort of professional, peer-reviewed, and neutral investigation is conducted by respectable sources regarding whether or not Bush is, in fact, the "most heavily-critized president in history", it shouldn't be mentioned in Wikipedia. Certainly there is a large amount of criticism, but any serious research would have to take into account an immense amount of information from each era for such a statement to be made accurately.
In the meantime, the problem with vandals on this page would be best resolved by having the young, frustrated, and liberal vandals given a good smack to the face. That's just silly, though. -- tomf688{ talk} 02:40, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
If you introduced the article on Criticism of George W. Bush as personal opinions, and placed a big notice on the top of the article disclaiming any relationship of the personal opinions expressed with the official position of Wikipedia, I'm sure you would be alright. It's done all the time in the commentary on DVDs. In such a case however, I think you would find that the Criticism sub-article polices itself. Critics of George W. Bush don't want to come across as mindless idiots. If you gave them a place to put some thought into their criticism, I think you would find more constructive arguments than "Bush is dumb." As for whether or not they are United States citizens, I don't think that matters. The policies of President Bush extend far beyond our borders, which is entirely the reason that non-Americans are critics. Their opinions are relevant too. -- Zephram Stark 15:15, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
I think it's pretty evident that Bush has recieved more instances of public criticism than any other president, if for no other reason than because millions of additional people are able to make critical public remarks via the internet, but if you don't want to note it, that's fine. Perhaps we could reword the first paragraph as follows:
How does that sound? -- Zephram Stark 15:22, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
"Wikipedia is not a blog," which is exactly what you're advocating. Further, "I'm talking about a more productive forum for vandals" is a contradiction in terms. A page like you describe would be a hopeless mess. Marskell 16:30, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
It's certainly your choice. If you want to treat vandalism like Bush treats terrorism, I'm sure you'll get the same results: more of it. Have fun. I won't be helping to stem the rising tide any longer. -- Zephram Stark 17:30, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Wow, this is a silly discussion. A "add your own personal opinion here" section would turn this encyclopedia article into a not-an-encyclopedia article. It's contrary to Wikipedia's core goals and principles. a ndroid 79 18:25, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
No matter the language in which this idea is framed, at its core, it is still contrary to WP:NOT, WP:NOR, and WP:V. I see no reason to continue this discussion. a ndroid 79 19:26, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
I propose that we give it a try and see what happens. The critics can have one month to get their article up to Wikipedia standards. On November 17, we will review the critic's page and the effect on vandalism to the George Bush article. If vandalism has significantly dropped off and the critics page is within Wikipedia standards, we will leave the link to the critic's page in the first paragraph of the article. Agree or Disagree?
Let's not participate in this thread. By doing so, we are feeding the trolls. (For more information, see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Zephram Stark and decide for yourself.) sɪzlæk [ +t, +c, +m, +e ] 22:08, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Next thread. -- kizzle 01:27, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to try to sitetrack all the political/POV crap for a moment with the Trivia section I just added at the end of the article. I think it's a good spot for minor stuff like only father of twins, second son-of-a-president, etc. A fair amount of the other wiki articles on presidents have a trivia section in the same spot. What do y'all think? EricN 09:19, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
The following Presidents have a trivia section in their article: Washington, Monroe, Q Adams, Van Buren, Lincoln, Grant, Garfield, B Harrison, McKinley, Taft, Wilson, Harding, LBJ, Nixon, Bush Sr., Clinton. Some of the Bush Jr. factoids are a little discordant in the article where they currently rest.
I know the article is already very long, but the purpose of this new section is not to add length, but to collate the out of place sentences from the rest of the article. For example, I don't think John Quincy Adams is sufficiently relevant to GWB that he needs mentioning in the first paragraph of the summary.
MONGO, if you see that an edit is done in good faith, can you at least leave it up longer than two minutes, even if you disagree with it? On this article it can get buried pretty quickly before anyone else can see if they like it. Thanks. EricN 09:19, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Request rescinded. EricN 21:22, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Why does article mention (in the first paragraph) whom Bush defeated in the 2000 and 2004 elections? At the least it needs to be re-written. One sentence reads, "Bush was elected to a second term, defeating Democratic Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts." But Bush also defeated many other national candidates. There is no need to mention who was defeated, only that he won. In the presidential campaigns the information about Gore is repeated, and is redundant. At the minimum, it should be phrased to say "the leading candidate was Democrat Al Gore, the incumbent Vice President," or John Kerry in 2004. I'm looking to not only clear up a misconception that there was only one candidate running against Bush, but to also reduce redundancy in the article. Perhaps the same should be true of all political figures. The first paragraph can state, IMO, when they were elected, and when they were sworn in, but a seperate section for each campaign should be made to discuss the actual process, including the alternative candidates, how many electoral/popular votes he received, etc. glocks out 18:12, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
shift left I agree that the primary focus should be GWB the person and that much of this article can be trimmed. However, not so many readers would visit this article if GWB retired as Texas Gov. I think this article, as the main GWB one, needs to fill a dual role of covering the person and the presidency. That's why I think the huge US-related events from 2001-2008 are summary worthy, even though they aren't directly related to GWB the person.
In 1999, near the start of the 2000 Republican Presidential primary race, Tucker Carlson interviewed George W. Bush for Talk Magazine. Carlson wrote: - - "In the weeks before the execution, Bush says, a number of protesters came to Austin to demand clemency for Karla Fay Tucker. "Did you meet with any of them?" I ask. Bush whips around and stares at me. "No, I didn't meet with any of them," he snaps, as though I've just asked the dumbest, most offensive question ever posed. "I didn't meet with Larry King either when he came down for it. I watched his interview with Tucker, though. He asked her real difficult questions like, "What would you say to Governor Bush?" "What was her answer?" I wonder. "Please," Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, "don't kill me." I must look shocked--ridiculing the pleas of a condemned prisoner who has since been executed seems odd and cruel--because he immediately stops smirking." Bush denies that he had intended to make light of the issue.
I added the source just like Mongo wanted and the some jerk reverts the whole thing whithout saying why -- Grazon
Ok thanks for explaining that. -- Grazon
And, that summary of the interview interjects a lot of speculation on the author's part. There would be no way of confirming any of the feelings the interviewer got. Also, I agree with Rhobite: this should focus on the "big picture", not evrything that happens. Think about writing this from a perspective of 100 years down the line. What will be important to people then? -- Lord Vold e mort (Dark Mark) 20:43, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Why are so many critics cited on this page? It seems like every other sentence or statement of Bush's is met with several sentences of what his critics say. Wouldn't it be more NPOV to simply state what he says, and perhaps mention "there are criticisms of this policy" or something along those lines? -- JamesR1701E 21:08, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
As in the 2000 election, there were charges raised alleging voting irregularities, especially in Ohio, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. In 2004 they did not lead to recounts that were expected to affect the result. After a congressional electoral contest -- the second in American history -- failed with votes of 1-74 by the Senate and 31-267 in the House, a lawsuit challenging the result in Ohio was withdrawn, because the congressional certification of the electoral votes had rendered the case moot. The challenge had been based on a report issued by the Democrats on the House Judiciary committee alleging " massive and unprecedented voter irregularities and anomalies."
I've been staring at this paragraph for half an hour, and I still don't see where to begin. It's a messy summary of an even messier article, and it doesn't do much to inform the reader. Unless someone wants to rewrite it from scratch, I'm going to delete it. EricN 21:41, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm trying to write about Bush's playing the guitar on August 30th.
how is what I've written not a NPOV?
grazon 22:17, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
funny EricN.
grazon 22:21, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
The entire Hurricane Katrina section isn't about George W. Bush. It doesn't even relate directly to him. It's about Hurricane Katrina, and should be in the Hurricane Katrina article, not the George W. Bush article. As a matter of fact, a lot of this article should be in here because it's either about the Bush Administration, or world events, and not about the person that is George W. Bush. I don't want to put a bunch of "mergeto" tags on this article either. I would hate to see Geraldo Rivera's article receive the same treatment as this one, we'd have a paragraph on every interview he's ever done. glocks out 22:15, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
what I wrote was about Bush.
grazon 22:50, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
his playing the guitar as people drowned matters.
grazon 23:11, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
There's been some edit warring over the hidden block warning at the top of the article ("Anyone who vandalizes the page may be blocked for 24 hours or more without further warning"). In order to get consensus on whether it is OK to block people for vandalizing a high-visibility article, I started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Blocking policy#Instant blocking for vandalizing high-traffic articles. Rhobite 00:21, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Bush has openly admitted his membership to this secret society. Shouldn't the article at least mention that link and point to the article on Skull and Bones? I tried adding a single line mentioning this in passing, but it was removed. (preceding comment by 69.169.130.131) -- Ashenai ( talk) 11:13, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
In August 2004, a "Cyber Security Alert" from US-CERT was issued concerning the main vote tabulating software in the electronic voting machines provided by Diebold, [5] warning that "a vulnerability exists due to an undocumented backdoor account, which could allow a local or remote authenticated malicious user to modify votes". Corrective action to close this software loophole was never taken, and it is yet unclear what effect this may have had on election results.
It would take some major word twisting to get this paragraph to even mention Bush's name. I think that's a good benchmark for something that doesn't belong in a Bush article. EricN 16:06, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
In July of 2002, Bush cut off all funding to the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA). Bush claimed that the UNFPA supported forced abortions and sterilizations in the People's Republic of China.
I expect this para has been through the wash a bunch of times, but I don't like the wording. "cut off all funding" seems incorrect (it's also funded by other nations) and POV (funds were shifted to a US agency with similar goals...maybe mention the isolationist aspect?). For now, I'm just going to add the least POV reference I could find (BBC News). Anyone want to try to improve this one? EricN 18:44, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I've seen a few things go into the Major Events in the introductory section. There's the spy plane incident, Space Shuttle Columbia's demise, Katrina, War on Terror (which isn't an event really), Iraq, and 9/11. Not all of these are there, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some that used to be there. We should decide what major events are going to go in here. glocks out 22:11, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Major events during Bush's presidency involving the United States include the September 11, 2001 attacks, the 2003 Invasion of Iraq, and the 2005 Hurricane Katrina disaster.
What's the purpose of including this paragraph?
In the week following the attacks on the twin towers in Manhattan in September 2001, President Bush made a brief but celebrated speech near the site of the collapsed buildings while surrounded by site workers. CNN reported, "As he stood on a pile of rubble in Manhattan, some people in the crowd shouted they couldn't hear him." In reply, Bush stated that the attackers would soon be "hearing from all of us". [6]
Why are we picking out this specific speech and not all of his others?
glocks out 22:38, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
The page is now 92 KB. I can tell this is a pretty important issue, because there are something like 30 talk pages, but as per Wikipedia:Article Size, we have to break this off into sub-pages, DESPERATELY. Once this is done (effectively), I think this should be re-submitted for peer review. It is truly a great example of how a topic like this can bring people together to create a great encyclopedia article. Let's see Brittanica try to top this! -[[ User:Mys e kurity| Mysekurity]] [[ additions | e-mail]] 00:35, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
What's with the spacing on this article? - Roy Boy 800 00:42, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
This paragraph is pure hearsay and unsupported accusations:
If you include this for George Bush, why doesn't the section on Bill Clinton mention that his brother Roger Clinton, himself a convicted drug trafficker, is heard on an Arkansas State Police surveillance audio tape saying "Got to get some [cocaine] for my brother; he’s got a nose like a vacuum cleaner" and in 1990 Sharlene Wilson, an informant for the Seventh Judicial drug task force in Arkansas, testified under oath that she had supplied Governor Bill Clinton with cocaine? All the Bill Clinton section says is this bit of left wing spin:
Either the rumors and unsubstantiated accusations against Bush should be treated the same as those against Clinton or we need to the cocaine rumors and accusation related to Clinton added to his article.
This paragraph in the Bush article should be removed - not to mention it is covered in an entire hearsay/unsupported accusation section called "George W. Bush substance abuse controversy"
- LastVisibleDog 01:14, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry for the repetition but I just had to point out...one hour, eight reversions. Let's say each bit of vandalism was up two minutes, then for a quarter of the last hour an interested browser coming here from Google or whatever was seeing vandalism (George vagina amongst others) not the true page. Sure, as Tony said above "just revert" but I still suggest that this page, at least for certain periods, is effectively useless. I really think we should block anons from editing. Marskell 15:16, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
But the vast majority of the bullshit here is drive-by stuff. Multiple anons hitting it randomly. Yes, of course, a "dedicated vandal" with a username can cause serious trouble but they can do that anyway. I think partial protection would drastically cut the vandalism. Marskell 15:55, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I think the software solution is possible. However, the anons have plenty of other places to edit. Drive by anon contributions to this page are almost always vandalism. As said above, partial protection would prevent most vandals, the serious ones would create sockpuppet accounts regardless. Ban e s 18:15, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Bush has said that he did not use illegal drugs at any time since 1974. [9] He has denied the allegation made by J.H. Hatfield in the book Fortunate Son: George W. Bush and the Making of an American President (1999) that family influence was used to expunge the record of an arrest for cocaine possession in 1972, but has refused to discuss whether he used drugs before 1974. [10] Hatfield, a convicted felon (solicitation of capital murder) [11], was unable to provide any evidence for his accusation and his publisher, St. Martin's Press, suspended publication and recalled his book because of this unsupported accusation about George Bush [12].
A whole paragraph written in the negative? If someone wants to reword this so it reads as "A said this. B happened. C responded", etc. go ahead. I'm dropping it in its current form of "A denied this, B refused this, C couldn't provide this". EricN 16:18, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
How long does a newly registered user wait (hours/days) before they receive the ability to move pages? Hall Monitor 18:51, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
United Kingdom Prime Minister Tony Blair, who has declared he shares a close political relationship with the United States known as the "Special Relationship" was asked by several parts of the media and anti-war protesters in Britain to apologize for backing his friend Bush just prior to the 2005 UK General Election, he declined, saying "I can't say sorry, I have nothing to be sorry about, I believe I did the right thing".
Image:Bush approval ratings line graph Feb 2001 to Oct 2005.png|thumb|250px|left|Bush approval rating from February 2001 to October 2005. Notable spikes in his approval rating followed the September 11, 2001 attacks, and the beginning of the 2003 Iraq conflict.
Autopilot updated this today, and it has already been cut and reverted. It is clearly relevant to the article, but the latest graph is not accurate to the CNN/Gallup poll data it references. I'm reverting to Aug/05 graph until the update is fixed. EricN 21:47, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
RE: [Image:Bush_approval_ratings_line_graph_Feb_2001_to_Oct_2005.png] Bush's approval rating (according to CNN/USA Today/Gallop) was 40 percent in September and 39% this month. [13] [14]. So, you're right, the graph I made didn't fit the numbers, it didn't take September into account. The line is going to show a more severe drop now (between August and September, with some leveling between September and October. This graph is by no means POV, how can it be? It's a mathematical representation of poll numbers. Anyway, I will not change the article to fit my recent correction, I'll leave that to someone else. If anyone else feels that my graph is too "POV," by all means, edit it, I just don't understand how a 39% can be anything but a 39% Autopilots 17:38, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
The following paragraph contains a completely unsupported allegation and an innuendo statement. The facts related to the "expunge" accusation have been removed to "juice up" the story. The allegation was made by a convicted felon in a book of which the publisher cancelled and recalled because the allegation could not be supported in any way (the source of the allegation was removed - I guess somebody wanted to hide the fact this allegation was totally debunked). The tapes only present innuendo based on a hypothetical statement - maybe Bush did it and maybe he did not. This paragraph has been turned into spin and must be removed:
The George W. Bush substance abuse controversy article is where this kind of information should reside.
On a second point, this statement is factually incorrect: "He has denied allegations that family influence was used to expunge the record" - there was only one accusation - made by a convicted felon in a failed attempt to sell books.
- LastVisibleDog 23:32, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Well, I thought that the article was in serious need of being smaller, so I took the "further reading and info" and branched it off into a daughter article. It's not much, but I think it's a good idea (the list didn't REALLY belong in the article anyways, as NONE of us are actually going to go through and make sure that all the books are notable--really, let's be honest ;) ).
Any thoughts? Matt Yeager 03:53, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
There is debate about whether the U.S. had evidence of Iraqi WMD or ties between Iraq and Al-Qaeda. A bipartisan intelligence review found no credible evidence that Saddam Hussein possessed WMD, although the report did conclude that Hussein's government was actively attempting to acquire technology that would allow Iraq to produce WMD's as soon as U.N. sanctions were lifted. The report also concluded that Saddam's missiles had a range greater than that allowed by the UN sanctions. The report found "no collaborative relationship" between Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda. Bush has defended his decision, arguing that "The world is safer today."
I need a reference to the report quoting "no collaborative relationship". I want to pull WMDs out of this paragraph, since they are covered in the previous one, but that leaves only:
There is debate about whether the U.S. had evidence of ties between Iraq and Al-Qaeda. A bipartisan intelligence review found "no collaborative relationship" between Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda. Bush has defended his decision, arguing that "The world is safer today."
...which is pretty thin. Anyone have this reference? I can't leave the quote in without it. EricN 12:19, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
I would like to rewrite this section as it is convoluted. The following is what I propose:
In the 2004 election, Bush carried 31 of 50 states for 286 Electoral College votes. A record voter turnout gave him more popular votes than any previous presidential candidate (62,040,610 votes/50.7%). Challenger, Senator John Kerry (Democrat), carried 20 states, earning him 286 Electoral College votes (59,028,111 votes/48.3%). A faithless elector, pledged to Kerry, voted for Democratic Vice Presidential running mate, John Edwards, giving him one Electoral College vote. No other candidate won any Electoral College votes. Notable third-party candidates included Independent and Reform candidate Ralph Nader (463,653 votes/0.4%), Libertarian candidate Michael Badnarik (397,265 votes/0.32%), Constitution Party candidate Michael Peroutka (144,498 votes/0.1%), and Green Party candidate David Cobb (119,859 votes/0.1%). Congress debated potential election irregularities, including allegations of voting irregularities in Ohio and electronic voting machine fraud.
Bush was inaugurated for his second term on 20 January 2005. The oath was administered by Chief Justice of the United States William Rehnquist. Bush's inaugural address centered mainly on a theme of spreading freedom and democracy around the world.
"From the perspective of a single day, including this day of dedication, the issues and questions before our country are many. From the viewpoint of centuries, the questions that come to us are narrowed and few. Did our generation advance the cause of freedom? And did our character bring credit to that cause?" [16]
See also: U.S. presidential election, 2004
glocks out 22:08, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
In the 2004 election Bush carried 31 of 50 states and 286 Electoral College votes to defeat Senator John Kerry. A record voter turnout, split 50.7% for Bush, 48.3% for Kerry, gave both men more votes than any previous presidential candidate. Congress debated potential election irregularities. Notable third-party candidates included ...[snip]
Atavistic 05:12, 25 October 2005 (UTC)==Let me get this straight== This time the article is locked because the article was vandalized in a way that makes Bush look good? That's a first-- 172.170.158.50 03:52, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Articles with current figures (politicians, businesses, people, countries etc) can not be composed without bias unless very strict boundries are layed down. Its all very well to source a newspaper, website or what have you, but as we all know these things have owners, writers, editors etc that have control over what they put out, and they themselves get their information off of someone else who in turn... Usually the facts can be filtered out by an unbiased person, but when the topic is a controversial president you're going to be hard pressed to find an unbiased person to compose the article. What ive said isnt new. I frequent the wiki projects as they are one of the most unbiased and complete sources around. Disputed articles are reasonably rare, although i have noticed that on some articles, the topic is given the benifit of the doubt, in others it goes the other way. it is a fine line, there will be a way to fix it, if anyone agrees with me i'd be happy to spend some time trying to come up with a solution, if not i can live with filtering the rare article as i read it. Atavistic 05:12, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
This page has grown out of control. It is fine if someone already knows a lot about Bush and can use the current outline to go tho the hurricane katrina section or something, but for other people It would be impossible to trace his presidency over time. I am suggesting we add an outline broken up into mounths that spells out in chronological order each action and event in his presidency. Like a tax cut here, court nomination here or a hurricane. This outline would be at the beginning of the page and each event in the timeline would link to diffrent sections in the page, what do you guys think?---- Ewok Slayer 16:08, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Uh, there should be s "spin off" article "The Presidency of George W. Bush" Rex071404 216.153.214.94 05:06, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry bout that Appleboy and anon. With these wide diffs hard to see all the changes on screen sometimes. I reverted it back when Fire Star did a rollback, should stick now. - Roy Boy 800 04:43, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
About the sentence he married Laura Welch, a Democrat librarian originally from Midland.
Autopilots 06:05, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone have a link to the Bush family's alleged connection to the Nazi party? -- Thearticulator 21:21, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
The Prescott Bush article has some external links at the bottom, as well as reporting on his Nazi ties. Autopilots 00:43, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Following a bit of...fun...with moving, and recursive redirects; deletion and undeletion and complete loss of article history, we've now got this talk page protected against moves. Rob Church Talk | FAHD 03:54, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
This paragraph needs to be re-written. It basically compares Bush to Clinton. Why not to every President? It should mention that there is a movement supporting impeaching Bush with % support. It doesn't need to be compared to Clinton because this is an encyclopedia, not a news article. glocks out 00:22, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
In a sign of the continuing partisan division of the nation, more than two-in-five (42%) voters say that, if it is found that President Bush did not tell the truth about his reasons for going to war with Iraq, Congress should hold him accountable through impeachment. While half (50%) of respondents do not hold this view, supporters of impeachment outweigh opponents in some parts of the country. (...) A large majority of Democrats (59%) say they agree that the President should be impeached if he lied about Iraq, while just three-in-ten (30%) disagree. Among President Bush’s fellow Republicans, a full one-in-four (25%) indicate they would favor impeaching the President under these circumstances, while seven-in-ten (70%) do not. Independents are more closely divided, with 43% favoring impeachment and 49% opposed.