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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
I have recently made some questionable changes to the Bush article and related articles, and for that I apologize. (You can blame it on me, or you can blame it on the slow server response I was experiencing, doesn't matter.)
However,
Over the past few days there has been what I perceive as an effort to remove all mention of Bush's environmental record from Wikipedia by Excising it from his biographical article, with the excuse that the article is "too long," Moving it to an obscure separate article with a single link to the main George W. Bush page Then removing all the information in the obscure article completely. I am here to tell you now, this will not occur. Bush's record on environmental issues is extensive, it deserves a write-up in this or any other encyclopedia, and it is going to by God have one. - Hephaestos 19:56, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Can we just have a Bush's adminst enviromental policies section in the Bush page that list his plans / programs and than critics and supporters opionions of them and be done with this Smith03 20:04, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)
My apologizes I did not attempt to remove Hephaestos statement I don't know if it caused by server being screwing or what
Smith03 20:38, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I just protected the page for a little while. I don't like the man, but that is no reason to vandalize the article. Danny
The trivia section is not appropriate, as it will enevitably only include unflattering/inappropriate/POV bits. Vancouverguy 00:51, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Please keep in mind this is an encyclopdia article and not a diary of everything a person does in his or her life Smith03 02:21, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Since the removal of Bush's environmenatl record from wikipedia. there still seems not much on it of bushes page? or should the orginal page with the stuff on be reverted back? -fonzy
Wiwaxia, Here's what I think. I think this article is a monument to how bad Wikipedia can get and I urge you to continue adding crap to it until it bursts at the seams. Hopefully various news magazines will use this article as an example of what a Wikipedia article is and we can all be proud of the coverage. The page already makes it clear that Bush never did a good or non-controversial thing in his life. I am not touching this, not reverting this, not NPOV'ing this, I'm just LMAO at it. Maybe somewhere there is a liberal who can write for the enemy and likes tilting at windmills. Until then, keep shoveling it in. Ark30inf 01:50, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
A quick question, not that I'm pro-Bush, but why are "negative" links included in an encyclopedia article? Aren't we supposed to take a neutral point of view, instead of pointing people to websites that launch fallicious attacks? I'm really just curious.
His career is remarkable for his rapid political ascent; for example, both the previous president, Bill Clinton, and Bush's opponent, Al Gore, have had to spend their entire adult lives in politics before reaching national levels. However, few statistics can be applied to the small number of presidential campaigns. The selection of the few candidates is not random. This is also true at the state governor level, as can be observed by the varied previous careers of candidates for such office.
I removed this paragraph because it really dose not make a whole lot of sense and really dose not tell us anything Smith03 01:51, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)
It is misleading and wrong to say press coverage of Bush's jogging is definitive or unique. The press loves to cover presidents jogging; Clinton was often shown jogging, despite his state of physical fitness [1] and Clinton was the first president to install a jogging track at the White House [2]. The press has been covering presidents jogging since at least the Carter administration [3], [4]. - Hephaestos 16:13, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)
No one list links to the US Commission on Civil Rights? http://www.usccr.gov look for Election 2000 and see the report on Voter Disenfranchisement Sparky
To re-hash a discussion above, there are way too many "oppositional" external links at the end of the article. If any of them were used as sources for material in this article, I suppose they should be listed, although finding less-biased sources would be preferable. I propose that we remove those "oppositional" links in favor of this Google directory listing which has more links than we'd ever want to list here. On balance, I think the Newsmax link can go in favor of this Yahoo! News aggregation. Heck, despite all the negative sites, we don't even have a direct link to Bush's " official website". Comments? -- Minesweeper 10:48, Nov 21, 2003 (UTC)
From the beginning of the article:
"Bush is also thought to be one of the best US presidents ever and the man who will bring peace to the world. As of November 24, 2003, 89% of Americans survived approved of his handling of the War on Terror."
Where do those figures come from? And surely "bringing peace to the world" is a little POV? -- KF 08:50, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I'd like to add this, but can't find a good spot...
And of course, I realize that it's kind of tricky to add it and not step on someone's toe... Guaka 21:02, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)
After looking at the changelog I wonder if it might not be possible to have a kind of "semi-protection", where users need to be logged in to modify a page. This would be a not-too-intruding way to block the largest part of vandalism. If people really want to feign anonymity they could be pointed to the talk page, and use it as an intermediate (like I try with the McGovern quote). Guaka 21:08, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)
go to the google website (www.google.com) and type in miserable failure and then hit the "i'm feeling lucky" button. Kingturtle 05:37, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
It's not POV to acknowledge that Presidents have nicknames. The nicknames are facts, even if the nicknames themselves have a POV origins. jengod 23:44, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)
P.S. Please don't mark such a significant change to an article as minor.
In response to the Chris D Jackson edits, I don't think that including a list of issues like that is NPOV, esp. given the (IMO) somewhat slanted nature of the accompanying text. Meelar 07:27, Jan 4, 2003 (UTC)
I guess my issue would be that only one side of the argument is represented. For instance, about the Niger uranium claim, there's the quote from the State of the Union, followed by a detailed rebuttal, but no response from Bush's supporters. Also, in the "Controversial Personal Issues section", you listed links to Bush's arrest record, Suspension from flying notice, and other negative materials (including an article in a left-leaning magazine) under the heading "Extra Credit". Meelar
63.205.47.65 02:20, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The argument is Bush's word vs. the other sides claims. If you want to present "another side", go ahead, but I think to bring up those issues are legit. The articles listed under his National Guard section is relevant are not biased, they are legal documents: Chris
I say this list of controversies and alleged lies has no place in an article on a sitting president, simply because there is no real objective test to determine if they are real controversies or just politically-motivated attacks - Tim
Oh, but it is ok to do it to Al Gore, the guy who got more votes and was VP? I say, make a seperate page for each, but if you don't want to do that, be consistent. ChrisDJackson
It is permissable to discuss controversies surrounding Al Gore, the guy who got the most votes (and lost) in 2000 and is not currently president, as well as Andrew Jackson, the guy who got the most votes (and lost) in 1824 and is not currently president, as well as Samuel J. Tilden, the guy who got the most votes (and lost) in 1876 and is not currently president, as well as Grover Cleveland, the guy who got the most votes (and lost) in 1888 and is not currently president. My point is, whoever is currently president will be hounded by many dumb, politically-contrived controversies and it is not clear how these can be separated from legitimate controversies, until after the president leaves office. - Tim
Also - a similar policy would be good for Howard Dean or whoever gets the Democratic nomination - to prevent political spin from getting into a NPOV encyclopedia article. - Tim
1. If the argument is Bush's word vs. the other side's claims, than fine; but they aren't presented as claims. Instead, there are statements like "No evidence of this claim has ever surfaced", or "This statement was based on a document that the White House already knew to be a forgery thanks to the CIA. Sold to Italian intelligence by some hustler..." (emphasis mine). There are no attributions and no links to outside sources; it's presented as facts.
2. As "Al Gore" currently stands, there is no separate section regarding controversies, though some of them are addressed in the article. Thus, I feel like having a "controversies" section in the Bush page is a bit much, especially since the Al Gore controversies that are covered are quite POV. And the "Extra Credit" heading is just blatant.
Signed, Meelar
That is stupid, Bush is open to criticism just as Gore or Bill Clinton is. Damn, you people crucified Gore and Clinton while in office, but you cant stand for legit arguments to be posted on your boy Scrub. Thats pretty bad. Chris
I'm actually a diehard lefty, but my personal political views don't have anything to do with this. I simply feel that the article, as it currently stands, violates NPOV and should be edited accordingly. Apparently you disagree, but what is the substance of your disagreements, and could we agree on compromise wording that might leave the information available but altered? P.S. I wasn't involved in the Gore controversy, so please don't hold me accountable for anything therein, though it was edifying to read the transcripts. Meelar
To state that controversy about Bush should not be included just becuase he is President is ridiculous. The same standards should apply to all public figures about what to include and what not to include. I really see no difference between whether the guy's running for president, president, or formerly vice president, as long as he is still an active politican making speeches, etc.
That said, including controversies in a separate section is very awkward. That is what is done for the Al Gore article and I am in a process of merging the content of the second half with the first.
It is not our business to be dispelling random rumors that spread through the media. This is a biography. Let's prevent wikipedia from turning into http://snopes.com. There's just some stuff that we could care less about. -- Jia ng 09:24, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The Department of Homeland Security is listed under "Bush Security Initiatives". As I recall, the Bush administration created the White House Office of Homeland Security, headed by Tom Ridge, shortly after 9/11, and actively opposed the creation of the cabinet-level Department of Homeland Security for several months.
I don't have the details handy, so I'm not editing the main article yet; perhaps someone else would like to do the research. (If not, I'll probably do it myself when and if I find the time.) —kst
I feel that the section titled "Claims About Iraq (war)" is NOT NPOV. The controversies about the Iraq war are covered in the "Military Campaigns" section. I propose we remove everything in the Claims about Iraq (war) section. Can we have a vote on this? Meelar 01:49, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Arguments and rebuttals which are well known are appropriate. Lirath Q. Pynnor
OK, it's been about two days. Should I start merging the content and deleting the "Iraq war claims" tomorrow, or should I wait a bit longer? Consider this last call. Meelar 05:32, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)
This seems to be a simple thing, but the nickname "Dubya" was just added yesterday. Right now, the article says it's a derisive name, but I seem to recall that it's pretty popular with supporters of Bush too. I was going to edit the page, and say something along the lines of:
Anyway, I'm not a fan of the guy, so I wouldn't want to put words in the mouths of people who do like him. Plus, I'm sure the nature of the nickname has changed quite a bit over the last few years. — Mulad 21:03, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)
That would be OK. Most of the uses I've heard of are derogatory (for instance, the term is a favorite of Maureen Dowd of the New York Times), but if you're aware of other uses, by all means. Meelar 23:51, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I merged the content from the contested sections, and I feel the article is now more neutral. Unless anybody complains, I'll take off the NPOV header within a few days. Comments? Meelar 17:05, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Also Talk:George W. Bush/Archive 1 & Talk:George W. Bush/Archive 2
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
I have recently made some questionable changes to the Bush article and related articles, and for that I apologize. (You can blame it on me, or you can blame it on the slow server response I was experiencing, doesn't matter.)
However,
Over the past few days there has been what I perceive as an effort to remove all mention of Bush's environmental record from Wikipedia by Excising it from his biographical article, with the excuse that the article is "too long," Moving it to an obscure separate article with a single link to the main George W. Bush page Then removing all the information in the obscure article completely. I am here to tell you now, this will not occur. Bush's record on environmental issues is extensive, it deserves a write-up in this or any other encyclopedia, and it is going to by God have one. - Hephaestos 19:56, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Can we just have a Bush's adminst enviromental policies section in the Bush page that list his plans / programs and than critics and supporters opionions of them and be done with this Smith03 20:04, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)
My apologizes I did not attempt to remove Hephaestos statement I don't know if it caused by server being screwing or what
Smith03 20:38, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I just protected the page for a little while. I don't like the man, but that is no reason to vandalize the article. Danny
The trivia section is not appropriate, as it will enevitably only include unflattering/inappropriate/POV bits. Vancouverguy 00:51, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Please keep in mind this is an encyclopdia article and not a diary of everything a person does in his or her life Smith03 02:21, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Since the removal of Bush's environmenatl record from wikipedia. there still seems not much on it of bushes page? or should the orginal page with the stuff on be reverted back? -fonzy
Wiwaxia, Here's what I think. I think this article is a monument to how bad Wikipedia can get and I urge you to continue adding crap to it until it bursts at the seams. Hopefully various news magazines will use this article as an example of what a Wikipedia article is and we can all be proud of the coverage. The page already makes it clear that Bush never did a good or non-controversial thing in his life. I am not touching this, not reverting this, not NPOV'ing this, I'm just LMAO at it. Maybe somewhere there is a liberal who can write for the enemy and likes tilting at windmills. Until then, keep shoveling it in. Ark30inf 01:50, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
A quick question, not that I'm pro-Bush, but why are "negative" links included in an encyclopedia article? Aren't we supposed to take a neutral point of view, instead of pointing people to websites that launch fallicious attacks? I'm really just curious.
His career is remarkable for his rapid political ascent; for example, both the previous president, Bill Clinton, and Bush's opponent, Al Gore, have had to spend their entire adult lives in politics before reaching national levels. However, few statistics can be applied to the small number of presidential campaigns. The selection of the few candidates is not random. This is also true at the state governor level, as can be observed by the varied previous careers of candidates for such office.
I removed this paragraph because it really dose not make a whole lot of sense and really dose not tell us anything Smith03 01:51, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)
It is misleading and wrong to say press coverage of Bush's jogging is definitive or unique. The press loves to cover presidents jogging; Clinton was often shown jogging, despite his state of physical fitness [1] and Clinton was the first president to install a jogging track at the White House [2]. The press has been covering presidents jogging since at least the Carter administration [3], [4]. - Hephaestos 16:13, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)
No one list links to the US Commission on Civil Rights? http://www.usccr.gov look for Election 2000 and see the report on Voter Disenfranchisement Sparky
To re-hash a discussion above, there are way too many "oppositional" external links at the end of the article. If any of them were used as sources for material in this article, I suppose they should be listed, although finding less-biased sources would be preferable. I propose that we remove those "oppositional" links in favor of this Google directory listing which has more links than we'd ever want to list here. On balance, I think the Newsmax link can go in favor of this Yahoo! News aggregation. Heck, despite all the negative sites, we don't even have a direct link to Bush's " official website". Comments? -- Minesweeper 10:48, Nov 21, 2003 (UTC)
From the beginning of the article:
"Bush is also thought to be one of the best US presidents ever and the man who will bring peace to the world. As of November 24, 2003, 89% of Americans survived approved of his handling of the War on Terror."
Where do those figures come from? And surely "bringing peace to the world" is a little POV? -- KF 08:50, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I'd like to add this, but can't find a good spot...
And of course, I realize that it's kind of tricky to add it and not step on someone's toe... Guaka 21:02, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)
After looking at the changelog I wonder if it might not be possible to have a kind of "semi-protection", where users need to be logged in to modify a page. This would be a not-too-intruding way to block the largest part of vandalism. If people really want to feign anonymity they could be pointed to the talk page, and use it as an intermediate (like I try with the McGovern quote). Guaka 21:08, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)
go to the google website (www.google.com) and type in miserable failure and then hit the "i'm feeling lucky" button. Kingturtle 05:37, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
It's not POV to acknowledge that Presidents have nicknames. The nicknames are facts, even if the nicknames themselves have a POV origins. jengod 23:44, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)
P.S. Please don't mark such a significant change to an article as minor.
In response to the Chris D Jackson edits, I don't think that including a list of issues like that is NPOV, esp. given the (IMO) somewhat slanted nature of the accompanying text. Meelar 07:27, Jan 4, 2003 (UTC)
I guess my issue would be that only one side of the argument is represented. For instance, about the Niger uranium claim, there's the quote from the State of the Union, followed by a detailed rebuttal, but no response from Bush's supporters. Also, in the "Controversial Personal Issues section", you listed links to Bush's arrest record, Suspension from flying notice, and other negative materials (including an article in a left-leaning magazine) under the heading "Extra Credit". Meelar
63.205.47.65 02:20, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The argument is Bush's word vs. the other sides claims. If you want to present "another side", go ahead, but I think to bring up those issues are legit. The articles listed under his National Guard section is relevant are not biased, they are legal documents: Chris
I say this list of controversies and alleged lies has no place in an article on a sitting president, simply because there is no real objective test to determine if they are real controversies or just politically-motivated attacks - Tim
Oh, but it is ok to do it to Al Gore, the guy who got more votes and was VP? I say, make a seperate page for each, but if you don't want to do that, be consistent. ChrisDJackson
It is permissable to discuss controversies surrounding Al Gore, the guy who got the most votes (and lost) in 2000 and is not currently president, as well as Andrew Jackson, the guy who got the most votes (and lost) in 1824 and is not currently president, as well as Samuel J. Tilden, the guy who got the most votes (and lost) in 1876 and is not currently president, as well as Grover Cleveland, the guy who got the most votes (and lost) in 1888 and is not currently president. My point is, whoever is currently president will be hounded by many dumb, politically-contrived controversies and it is not clear how these can be separated from legitimate controversies, until after the president leaves office. - Tim
Also - a similar policy would be good for Howard Dean or whoever gets the Democratic nomination - to prevent political spin from getting into a NPOV encyclopedia article. - Tim
1. If the argument is Bush's word vs. the other side's claims, than fine; but they aren't presented as claims. Instead, there are statements like "No evidence of this claim has ever surfaced", or "This statement was based on a document that the White House already knew to be a forgery thanks to the CIA. Sold to Italian intelligence by some hustler..." (emphasis mine). There are no attributions and no links to outside sources; it's presented as facts.
2. As "Al Gore" currently stands, there is no separate section regarding controversies, though some of them are addressed in the article. Thus, I feel like having a "controversies" section in the Bush page is a bit much, especially since the Al Gore controversies that are covered are quite POV. And the "Extra Credit" heading is just blatant.
Signed, Meelar
That is stupid, Bush is open to criticism just as Gore or Bill Clinton is. Damn, you people crucified Gore and Clinton while in office, but you cant stand for legit arguments to be posted on your boy Scrub. Thats pretty bad. Chris
I'm actually a diehard lefty, but my personal political views don't have anything to do with this. I simply feel that the article, as it currently stands, violates NPOV and should be edited accordingly. Apparently you disagree, but what is the substance of your disagreements, and could we agree on compromise wording that might leave the information available but altered? P.S. I wasn't involved in the Gore controversy, so please don't hold me accountable for anything therein, though it was edifying to read the transcripts. Meelar
To state that controversy about Bush should not be included just becuase he is President is ridiculous. The same standards should apply to all public figures about what to include and what not to include. I really see no difference between whether the guy's running for president, president, or formerly vice president, as long as he is still an active politican making speeches, etc.
That said, including controversies in a separate section is very awkward. That is what is done for the Al Gore article and I am in a process of merging the content of the second half with the first.
It is not our business to be dispelling random rumors that spread through the media. This is a biography. Let's prevent wikipedia from turning into http://snopes.com. There's just some stuff that we could care less about. -- Jia ng 09:24, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The Department of Homeland Security is listed under "Bush Security Initiatives". As I recall, the Bush administration created the White House Office of Homeland Security, headed by Tom Ridge, shortly after 9/11, and actively opposed the creation of the cabinet-level Department of Homeland Security for several months.
I don't have the details handy, so I'm not editing the main article yet; perhaps someone else would like to do the research. (If not, I'll probably do it myself when and if I find the time.) —kst
I feel that the section titled "Claims About Iraq (war)" is NOT NPOV. The controversies about the Iraq war are covered in the "Military Campaigns" section. I propose we remove everything in the Claims about Iraq (war) section. Can we have a vote on this? Meelar 01:49, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Arguments and rebuttals which are well known are appropriate. Lirath Q. Pynnor
OK, it's been about two days. Should I start merging the content and deleting the "Iraq war claims" tomorrow, or should I wait a bit longer? Consider this last call. Meelar 05:32, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)
This seems to be a simple thing, but the nickname "Dubya" was just added yesterday. Right now, the article says it's a derisive name, but I seem to recall that it's pretty popular with supporters of Bush too. I was going to edit the page, and say something along the lines of:
Anyway, I'm not a fan of the guy, so I wouldn't want to put words in the mouths of people who do like him. Plus, I'm sure the nature of the nickname has changed quite a bit over the last few years. — Mulad 21:03, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)
That would be OK. Most of the uses I've heard of are derogatory (for instance, the term is a favorite of Maureen Dowd of the New York Times), but if you're aware of other uses, by all means. Meelar 23:51, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I merged the content from the contested sections, and I feel the article is now more neutral. Unless anybody complains, I'll take off the NPOV header within a few days. Comments? Meelar 17:05, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Also Talk:George W. Bush/Archive 1 & Talk:George W. Bush/Archive 2