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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
I'm surprised that recent highlighting of his investing in this controversial military contract company hasn't been placed into the article. Meh. I haven't the time this week, sorry. If I wrote a quick one-liner it would probably seem terribly biased.
Another editor beat me to the punch and correctly removed an unfair reference to Soros's supposed participation in "atrocities" during World War II. It is essential that such libelous accusations not be permitted in the encyclopedia, in accordance with wiki policies on biographies of living persons, BLP. This all took place when Soros was a child and are grossly unfair.-- Samiharris 17:57, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I asked what the neutrality tag was all about and got the following answer. I'll follow that with quotes from the article showing that the concerns are taken care of and remove the tag. It's a big article and it can be hard to find what you're looking for. Anybody who doesn't agree is welcome to put the tag back on and explain. Smallbones 19:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
George Soros, Soros on Soros, Staying Ahead of the Curve (New York: John Wiley, 1995) Does anyone have this book, so they can check the quote used.. "When you speculate in the financial markets you are free of most of the moral concerns that confront an ordinary businessman.." All sources are one article by Heather Cotin and contain personal attacks " Soros has a schizophrenic craving for unlimited personal wealth". Cheers Dmanning 09:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Seems like someone was feeling very political when they posted that Fox News constantly attacks Soros due to his dumping of millions of dollars to beat Bush. I'm not a fan of FNC, but comon....thats just blantantly out of place. Sources? While true that Soros did put in millions in an attempt to stop a Bush re-election, this Fox News comment doesn't belong anywhere on this page, at least while it has no sources to prove a "constant" attack by FNC on Soros. And even if sources were found to prove this, a more correct placing for it might be on FNC's Wiki page. Eryk13 13:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC) Eryk13
If ABC runs a story on Mother Teresa, should it go on the ABC page?
Fox is alleging that George Soros is the mastermind behind a huge political apparatus to effect US elections. If true, is this a news story? Is his background inconsistent with building political organizations to control national governments? George Soros is not Mother Teresa. Raggz 00:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
This is exactly correct. While Foxnews might be slanted to the right, most other news sources tend to be slanted to the left. Yet anytime some news story from Foxnews is used as a source, it is shot down. People say, "Oh it's Foxnews, where's the journalistic integrity? They're biased." Then they go on and post article after article supported by Foxnews. You know what, I think that Foxnews is biased as well. Alot of people do. But I also think that as long as people know that it comes from Foxnews then there should be no problem. People can make up their own minds. All we should do is add the stories to the articles as they become newsworthy, all the while making sure that it is big enough to matter. And I think a story that Soros is masterminding a huge political apparatus is very, very newsworthy. Let people make of the source whatever they will. 64.185.4.7 21:11, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
We also have to be careful about WP:BLP. But Foxnews isn't some tabloid reporting that Tom Cruise is gay, it's a major news source that is reporting something very newsworthy. 64.185.4.7 21:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Many currency speculators see the comming end of the Euro, and as a result many believe that will then break the back of his influence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Etom ( talk • contribs) 04:02, 10 May 2007 (UTC).
Can anybody find a citation for this?
removed from article by Smallbones 15:01, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
the following diff [1] may be controversial, and people may want to revisit my 90% removal of a new section. It seemed to be more about the book than Soros, and even then not NPOV. Since I haven't read the book, I only left in what seems knowable, but others may be better able to edit the section. Smallbones 11:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Whoops - the 'financial terrorist' charge was put into the intro - which I think is totally inappropriate, and I missed it when I did the "lawn mower" edit to the new section. As far as leaving in a mention that "the book x written by a and b says y" I don't see this as controversial at all - the only caveat being that maybe there are already too many of these. Under the currency speculation section there are 2. One (properly referenced) of a former Prime Minister calling Soros an "idiot" and another (please check reference) of somebody calling Soros a "bloodsucker." The fact that might be included fairly (if properly referenced) is that people call Soros these things, not that Soros is these things. Smallbones 10:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I question whether the book should be mentioned at all, given the nature of its authorship not to mention the degree to which its irresponsible contents conflict with BLP. I am surprised there is an article on a book such as this. Is it really notable?-- Samiharris 15:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
What is the "irresponsible contents" part of the book?-- Purpleslog 16:15, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Given the above and the back and forth on whether what O'Reilly says is notable (even if it seems absurd), would it be better to have a section labeled "extreme criticisms"? I know this seems extreme and POV, but when a Prime Minister calls Soros a moron, other people say he "sucks blood", the New Republic suggests that he's a Nazi collaberator, two Chinese colonels say that he is a "financial terrorist" and now O'Reilly says he controls major US media... How can we put these things in at all under WP:BLP? But how can we leave them out if somebody notable says such irrational things? Opinions welcome (here not in the article).
Smallbones 16:28, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I removed the nonsense section about O'Reilly's nonsense attack (labeled "Influencing the Media"). There wasn't a single fact quoted that said Soros influences the media. NYTimes article didn't mention Soros. WPost article quotes a Republican spokesperson saying the Soros "purchased the Democratic Party." O'Reilly adds 0 + 1 and gets 37, saying Soros is "one of the most feared men in the world," and suggests calling him "Dr. Evil." There's no news here, no informed opinion, except perhaps to show that O'Reilly is not in anyway limited by journalistic ethics (but is that really news?).
Smallbones 11:03, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree with your placement of the WPost criticism. It is, indeed, much more appropriate where you placed it.
As for O"reilly's argument, you left a few critical elements out. On 1) Soros didn't merely make a donation to Moveon.org, he donates millions and millions to Moveon.org, Media Matters, etc. And after 2) Moveon.org talks regularly with Democratic leaders, there's also a 3) Moveon.org told them that they would no longer support any particular person in the Democratic party is they were against a timetable for withdrawal of troops. O'Reilly's point is that Soros, being the major donor of this organization (other organizations he sponsors use similar tactics, but that's beside the point) is implicated in its actions. OReilly characterizes these actions as bullying.
Now, of course, Soros does not own Moveon.org. So why don't we compromise with this? Let's put the statement back in, in full. Because it was a criticism (and a major, well refrenced criticism as well that should not be hidden). Then let's add an additional sentence, saying something like: "However, Soros does not control Moveon.org's day-to-day operations and is simply a major donor."
This way we're not hiding the fact that there was a major criticism that was made, yet also we're pointing out the weakness in O'Reilly's argument. |3 E |_ |_ 0 VV E |) 16:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
"Despite his hand in the fall of the Soviet Union, this has not dissuaded conservative critics in the United States from repeatedly calling him a "communist". [18] "
Does Michael Savage, arguably the most extreme of all populist American political commentators, really represent the overall view of "conservative critics" that Soros is a Communist? Savage would call his own mother a communist, but that doesn't mean that conservatives criticize Mrs. Savage (or whatever her real name is) of being a communist. It would probably make a lot more sense to read that "Despite his hand in the fall of the Soviet Union, critics like Michael Savage have referred to Soros as a Communist." To draw an analogy, Iran criticized Soros of being a Zionist this morning... would it be fair to say "Despite his ideological opposition to Israeli militarism, this has not dissuaded Muslim critics in the Middle East from repeatedly calling him a "Zionist". I'd hope that everybody would understand the problem with both of these remarks in the article. 192.80.61.168 13:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC) (MichaelBrazell on Public computer)
One of the problems with Soros is that so few people actually know anything about him. Very little gets said about him anymore aside from what O'Reilly says. |3 E |_ |_ 0 VV E |) 19:54, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Adding a section accusing Soros of "buying" political influence, on the say-so of one commentator, is grossly unfair to Soros as well as being defamatory. The charge has been denied, and I question whether this segment should be there at all. I have reduced it substantially in size and placed a more neutral section headline on it. Under WP:BLP, such accusations against a public figure require better sourcing. I am frankly not happy with this section even though reduced, and believe it needs to go entirely.-- Samiharris 16:46, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
"Biased or malicious content"
"Editors should be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons in biographies and elsewhere. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability."
-- Samiharris 14:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Just because it goes against your political beliefs doesn't make it malicious. It's sourced, it's a MAJOR criticism by a MAJOR personality. "Clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability?" ---Well, it's Bill O'Reilly. Whatever you might think of him, he gets millions of viewers every night. In fact, he has the top rated news program on cable television--including MSNBC and CNN. |3 E |_ |_ 0 VV E |) 16:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Goethean, how can I assume good faith when you dismiss anything and everything that comes from Bill O'Reilly as a lie? It is obvious that your politics are blinding you from these simple facts: 1) Bill O'Reilly is a major public figure, and alot of people listen to what he says 2) This is a major criticism that is also fair; the Media Matters refutation was added in. Therefore WP:BLP won't work. It doesn't mean that criticism can't EVER be expressed. It simply means that there are certain guidelines that have to be followed.
By the way, since you're such a champion for WP:BLP, why don't you go over to George W. Bush's page and take off all of the criticisms sourced by Michael Moore? |3 E |_ |_ 0 VV E |) 16:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Only a very novel interpretation of WP:BLP would require the removal of this info. Fox News is a reliable source, and O'Reilly has the highest-rated show on cable news, so his opinion is notable. As long as there is proper attribution that this is O'Reilly's opinion, there is no valid reason to exclude it. I am restoring it, but I'll re-check the wording before saving. See the content defended by User:Gamaliel in the Jeff Gannon article for a similar sourcing situation. - Crockspot 16:53, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Instead of singling out a particular O'Reilly rant, wouldn't it be better to have a section detailing overall criticism of Soros and the peculiar effect he has on right-wingers? Gamaliel ( Orwellian Cyber hell master) 17:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Since the question was asked of me, I'll answer it. I don't follow those other sources, so I have no opinion on them. I do however every once in a while turn the dial to Fox and none of it looks remotely like serious journalism to me, certainly not O'Rielly. This is not just my opinion, it is the opinion of many people in the world of journalism, e.g. Murdoch owns the Times and Sunday Times of London. Before the owner would sell, they put in strict restricitons limiting Murdoch's ability to affect editorial policy,i.e. they didn't trust him to report the news fairly and accurately. The same thing is going on now with Dow Jones, Murdoch wants to buy it but the owners (as capitalist as they come) don't trust Murdoch to report the news fairly, so they are insisting on limiting his ability to affect editorial policy. Smallbones 17:10, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Goethean, right now the O'Reilly quote is sourced from Foxnews. However, I am looking at the identical quote by O'Reilly over on Media Matters website. If you want to keep at this, we can just source the identical O'Reilly quote directly from Media Matters (a more reliable source, since it's transcriptions, in your words) and the issue will be resolved.
Even still, though, the opinion issue is irrelevant. Opinions do matter and, as long as they are made by a notable personality so as to not effect weight (as in views held only my a tiny minority) then it can and should stick. Just like Michael Moore's controversial opinions of George W. Bush. And by the way, last I heard, Bush was still a living person.
Yet even still, it isn't an editorial-opinion that was quoted by O'Reilly. If you go back and re-read it, it is not editorial-opinionism but reporting-journalism, although O'Reilly does also do editorials as well. Any conclusion that O'Reilly forms on this matter, has it's basis in the facts that he and his team uncovered. Whether or not all of what he said happens to be true when it's all said and done, it is too major of a statement by too notable of a personality to merely be shoved under the WP:BLP rug. |3 E |_ |_ 0 VV E |) 23:42, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
OK, so first WP:BLP is cited, then O'Reilly is cited as being an unreliable source? This is according to your opinions, just like many people feel that Michael Moore is an unreliable source that Counterpunch.org, that the Raw Story, that MediaMatters.org, or that Salon.com are also unreliable because they have an overwhelming bias.
If you want to know who's unreliable here, it's not O'Reilly, it's Goethean. I already said that I lost good faith in Goethean's edits on political matters. He posted on my page that, basically, everything that comes from Michael Moore must be fact and everything that comes from O'Reilly must be lies. This bias disturbs me.
Further when he said: "Ok, thanks for clearing that up. If Fox News is a reliable source, then all sorts of other things must be true -- Saddam Hussein must have nuclear weapons, the war in Iraq must be a stunning success, and Anna Nicole Smith must be the most important item in world news." This is obviously a very distorted view of Foxnews. Like I said, I have reason to have lost good faith in Goethean and I will be reporting any future vandalism. |3 E |_ |_ 0 VV E |) 14:04, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I think your words speak for themselves. We'll let other editors presume bias, but I've already cast my vote.
Perhaps calling you a vandal was a bit strong, but you are blanking edits that others would like to see stick; not just me. No consensus has been achieved here. |3 E |_ |_ 0 VV E |) 14:28, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Just to return to the topic at hand: no, I do not believe that Bill O'Reilly is a reliable source for a factual accusation against George Soros, one that has been denied. Whether you agree with him or not, O'Reilly has an agenda. BLP states that Wikipedia is not a tabloid. It is an encyclopedia and we are under no obligation to repeat smears that are defamatory and harmful to subjects of biographies. "Do no harm" is the rule in doubtful cases.-- Samiharris 14:30, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Again, just like Michael Moore whose criticisms have been noted on other pages. |3 E |_ |_ 0 VV E |) 14:38, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I've expanded the Media Matters response, but still believe that a third party reliable source is required on this. I do not believe that this section is fair or should remain in the encyclopedia.-- Samiharris 14:40, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Sami, I like your edit and commend you on expanding Media Matter's comment. This is the right way to edit.
Can someone find some sort of policy or a precedent set in some similar case? Because that's what matters, not fear of litigation. If we open that door then Wikipedia is going to become chaos and anything could be interpreted as libelous and Wikipedia's policies will be thrown out the window.
Back to the policies, if we find a policy or precedent that would not allow for comments by an O'Reilly, then we've also got to go through Wikipedia and remove criticisms by the Michael Moore's and alot of other notables who have agendas. This would be bad because these things deserve to be in the encyclopedia, but since there might be an agenda, we'll have to remove it. We also will have to call into question alot of biased news-sources, like counterpunch, which have been accepted thus far. |3 E |_ |_ 0 VV E |) 15:11, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
I'm surprised that recent highlighting of his investing in this controversial military contract company hasn't been placed into the article. Meh. I haven't the time this week, sorry. If I wrote a quick one-liner it would probably seem terribly biased.
Another editor beat me to the punch and correctly removed an unfair reference to Soros's supposed participation in "atrocities" during World War II. It is essential that such libelous accusations not be permitted in the encyclopedia, in accordance with wiki policies on biographies of living persons, BLP. This all took place when Soros was a child and are grossly unfair.-- Samiharris 17:57, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I asked what the neutrality tag was all about and got the following answer. I'll follow that with quotes from the article showing that the concerns are taken care of and remove the tag. It's a big article and it can be hard to find what you're looking for. Anybody who doesn't agree is welcome to put the tag back on and explain. Smallbones 19:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
George Soros, Soros on Soros, Staying Ahead of the Curve (New York: John Wiley, 1995) Does anyone have this book, so they can check the quote used.. "When you speculate in the financial markets you are free of most of the moral concerns that confront an ordinary businessman.." All sources are one article by Heather Cotin and contain personal attacks " Soros has a schizophrenic craving for unlimited personal wealth". Cheers Dmanning 09:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Seems like someone was feeling very political when they posted that Fox News constantly attacks Soros due to his dumping of millions of dollars to beat Bush. I'm not a fan of FNC, but comon....thats just blantantly out of place. Sources? While true that Soros did put in millions in an attempt to stop a Bush re-election, this Fox News comment doesn't belong anywhere on this page, at least while it has no sources to prove a "constant" attack by FNC on Soros. And even if sources were found to prove this, a more correct placing for it might be on FNC's Wiki page. Eryk13 13:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC) Eryk13
If ABC runs a story on Mother Teresa, should it go on the ABC page?
Fox is alleging that George Soros is the mastermind behind a huge political apparatus to effect US elections. If true, is this a news story? Is his background inconsistent with building political organizations to control national governments? George Soros is not Mother Teresa. Raggz 00:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
This is exactly correct. While Foxnews might be slanted to the right, most other news sources tend to be slanted to the left. Yet anytime some news story from Foxnews is used as a source, it is shot down. People say, "Oh it's Foxnews, where's the journalistic integrity? They're biased." Then they go on and post article after article supported by Foxnews. You know what, I think that Foxnews is biased as well. Alot of people do. But I also think that as long as people know that it comes from Foxnews then there should be no problem. People can make up their own minds. All we should do is add the stories to the articles as they become newsworthy, all the while making sure that it is big enough to matter. And I think a story that Soros is masterminding a huge political apparatus is very, very newsworthy. Let people make of the source whatever they will. 64.185.4.7 21:11, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
We also have to be careful about WP:BLP. But Foxnews isn't some tabloid reporting that Tom Cruise is gay, it's a major news source that is reporting something very newsworthy. 64.185.4.7 21:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Many currency speculators see the comming end of the Euro, and as a result many believe that will then break the back of his influence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Etom ( talk • contribs) 04:02, 10 May 2007 (UTC).
Can anybody find a citation for this?
removed from article by Smallbones 15:01, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
the following diff [1] may be controversial, and people may want to revisit my 90% removal of a new section. It seemed to be more about the book than Soros, and even then not NPOV. Since I haven't read the book, I only left in what seems knowable, but others may be better able to edit the section. Smallbones 11:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Whoops - the 'financial terrorist' charge was put into the intro - which I think is totally inappropriate, and I missed it when I did the "lawn mower" edit to the new section. As far as leaving in a mention that "the book x written by a and b says y" I don't see this as controversial at all - the only caveat being that maybe there are already too many of these. Under the currency speculation section there are 2. One (properly referenced) of a former Prime Minister calling Soros an "idiot" and another (please check reference) of somebody calling Soros a "bloodsucker." The fact that might be included fairly (if properly referenced) is that people call Soros these things, not that Soros is these things. Smallbones 10:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I question whether the book should be mentioned at all, given the nature of its authorship not to mention the degree to which its irresponsible contents conflict with BLP. I am surprised there is an article on a book such as this. Is it really notable?-- Samiharris 15:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
What is the "irresponsible contents" part of the book?-- Purpleslog 16:15, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Given the above and the back and forth on whether what O'Reilly says is notable (even if it seems absurd), would it be better to have a section labeled "extreme criticisms"? I know this seems extreme and POV, but when a Prime Minister calls Soros a moron, other people say he "sucks blood", the New Republic suggests that he's a Nazi collaberator, two Chinese colonels say that he is a "financial terrorist" and now O'Reilly says he controls major US media... How can we put these things in at all under WP:BLP? But how can we leave them out if somebody notable says such irrational things? Opinions welcome (here not in the article).
Smallbones 16:28, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I removed the nonsense section about O'Reilly's nonsense attack (labeled "Influencing the Media"). There wasn't a single fact quoted that said Soros influences the media. NYTimes article didn't mention Soros. WPost article quotes a Republican spokesperson saying the Soros "purchased the Democratic Party." O'Reilly adds 0 + 1 and gets 37, saying Soros is "one of the most feared men in the world," and suggests calling him "Dr. Evil." There's no news here, no informed opinion, except perhaps to show that O'Reilly is not in anyway limited by journalistic ethics (but is that really news?).
Smallbones 11:03, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree with your placement of the WPost criticism. It is, indeed, much more appropriate where you placed it.
As for O"reilly's argument, you left a few critical elements out. On 1) Soros didn't merely make a donation to Moveon.org, he donates millions and millions to Moveon.org, Media Matters, etc. And after 2) Moveon.org talks regularly with Democratic leaders, there's also a 3) Moveon.org told them that they would no longer support any particular person in the Democratic party is they were against a timetable for withdrawal of troops. O'Reilly's point is that Soros, being the major donor of this organization (other organizations he sponsors use similar tactics, but that's beside the point) is implicated in its actions. OReilly characterizes these actions as bullying.
Now, of course, Soros does not own Moveon.org. So why don't we compromise with this? Let's put the statement back in, in full. Because it was a criticism (and a major, well refrenced criticism as well that should not be hidden). Then let's add an additional sentence, saying something like: "However, Soros does not control Moveon.org's day-to-day operations and is simply a major donor."
This way we're not hiding the fact that there was a major criticism that was made, yet also we're pointing out the weakness in O'Reilly's argument. |3 E |_ |_ 0 VV E |) 16:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
"Despite his hand in the fall of the Soviet Union, this has not dissuaded conservative critics in the United States from repeatedly calling him a "communist". [18] "
Does Michael Savage, arguably the most extreme of all populist American political commentators, really represent the overall view of "conservative critics" that Soros is a Communist? Savage would call his own mother a communist, but that doesn't mean that conservatives criticize Mrs. Savage (or whatever her real name is) of being a communist. It would probably make a lot more sense to read that "Despite his hand in the fall of the Soviet Union, critics like Michael Savage have referred to Soros as a Communist." To draw an analogy, Iran criticized Soros of being a Zionist this morning... would it be fair to say "Despite his ideological opposition to Israeli militarism, this has not dissuaded Muslim critics in the Middle East from repeatedly calling him a "Zionist". I'd hope that everybody would understand the problem with both of these remarks in the article. 192.80.61.168 13:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC) (MichaelBrazell on Public computer)
One of the problems with Soros is that so few people actually know anything about him. Very little gets said about him anymore aside from what O'Reilly says. |3 E |_ |_ 0 VV E |) 19:54, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Adding a section accusing Soros of "buying" political influence, on the say-so of one commentator, is grossly unfair to Soros as well as being defamatory. The charge has been denied, and I question whether this segment should be there at all. I have reduced it substantially in size and placed a more neutral section headline on it. Under WP:BLP, such accusations against a public figure require better sourcing. I am frankly not happy with this section even though reduced, and believe it needs to go entirely.-- Samiharris 16:46, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
"Biased or malicious content"
"Editors should be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons in biographies and elsewhere. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability."
-- Samiharris 14:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Just because it goes against your political beliefs doesn't make it malicious. It's sourced, it's a MAJOR criticism by a MAJOR personality. "Clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability?" ---Well, it's Bill O'Reilly. Whatever you might think of him, he gets millions of viewers every night. In fact, he has the top rated news program on cable television--including MSNBC and CNN. |3 E |_ |_ 0 VV E |) 16:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Goethean, how can I assume good faith when you dismiss anything and everything that comes from Bill O'Reilly as a lie? It is obvious that your politics are blinding you from these simple facts: 1) Bill O'Reilly is a major public figure, and alot of people listen to what he says 2) This is a major criticism that is also fair; the Media Matters refutation was added in. Therefore WP:BLP won't work. It doesn't mean that criticism can't EVER be expressed. It simply means that there are certain guidelines that have to be followed.
By the way, since you're such a champion for WP:BLP, why don't you go over to George W. Bush's page and take off all of the criticisms sourced by Michael Moore? |3 E |_ |_ 0 VV E |) 16:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Only a very novel interpretation of WP:BLP would require the removal of this info. Fox News is a reliable source, and O'Reilly has the highest-rated show on cable news, so his opinion is notable. As long as there is proper attribution that this is O'Reilly's opinion, there is no valid reason to exclude it. I am restoring it, but I'll re-check the wording before saving. See the content defended by User:Gamaliel in the Jeff Gannon article for a similar sourcing situation. - Crockspot 16:53, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Instead of singling out a particular O'Reilly rant, wouldn't it be better to have a section detailing overall criticism of Soros and the peculiar effect he has on right-wingers? Gamaliel ( Orwellian Cyber hell master) 17:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Since the question was asked of me, I'll answer it. I don't follow those other sources, so I have no opinion on them. I do however every once in a while turn the dial to Fox and none of it looks remotely like serious journalism to me, certainly not O'Rielly. This is not just my opinion, it is the opinion of many people in the world of journalism, e.g. Murdoch owns the Times and Sunday Times of London. Before the owner would sell, they put in strict restricitons limiting Murdoch's ability to affect editorial policy,i.e. they didn't trust him to report the news fairly and accurately. The same thing is going on now with Dow Jones, Murdoch wants to buy it but the owners (as capitalist as they come) don't trust Murdoch to report the news fairly, so they are insisting on limiting his ability to affect editorial policy. Smallbones 17:10, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Goethean, right now the O'Reilly quote is sourced from Foxnews. However, I am looking at the identical quote by O'Reilly over on Media Matters website. If you want to keep at this, we can just source the identical O'Reilly quote directly from Media Matters (a more reliable source, since it's transcriptions, in your words) and the issue will be resolved.
Even still, though, the opinion issue is irrelevant. Opinions do matter and, as long as they are made by a notable personality so as to not effect weight (as in views held only my a tiny minority) then it can and should stick. Just like Michael Moore's controversial opinions of George W. Bush. And by the way, last I heard, Bush was still a living person.
Yet even still, it isn't an editorial-opinion that was quoted by O'Reilly. If you go back and re-read it, it is not editorial-opinionism but reporting-journalism, although O'Reilly does also do editorials as well. Any conclusion that O'Reilly forms on this matter, has it's basis in the facts that he and his team uncovered. Whether or not all of what he said happens to be true when it's all said and done, it is too major of a statement by too notable of a personality to merely be shoved under the WP:BLP rug. |3 E |_ |_ 0 VV E |) 23:42, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
OK, so first WP:BLP is cited, then O'Reilly is cited as being an unreliable source? This is according to your opinions, just like many people feel that Michael Moore is an unreliable source that Counterpunch.org, that the Raw Story, that MediaMatters.org, or that Salon.com are also unreliable because they have an overwhelming bias.
If you want to know who's unreliable here, it's not O'Reilly, it's Goethean. I already said that I lost good faith in Goethean's edits on political matters. He posted on my page that, basically, everything that comes from Michael Moore must be fact and everything that comes from O'Reilly must be lies. This bias disturbs me.
Further when he said: "Ok, thanks for clearing that up. If Fox News is a reliable source, then all sorts of other things must be true -- Saddam Hussein must have nuclear weapons, the war in Iraq must be a stunning success, and Anna Nicole Smith must be the most important item in world news." This is obviously a very distorted view of Foxnews. Like I said, I have reason to have lost good faith in Goethean and I will be reporting any future vandalism. |3 E |_ |_ 0 VV E |) 14:04, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I think your words speak for themselves. We'll let other editors presume bias, but I've already cast my vote.
Perhaps calling you a vandal was a bit strong, but you are blanking edits that others would like to see stick; not just me. No consensus has been achieved here. |3 E |_ |_ 0 VV E |) 14:28, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Just to return to the topic at hand: no, I do not believe that Bill O'Reilly is a reliable source for a factual accusation against George Soros, one that has been denied. Whether you agree with him or not, O'Reilly has an agenda. BLP states that Wikipedia is not a tabloid. It is an encyclopedia and we are under no obligation to repeat smears that are defamatory and harmful to subjects of biographies. "Do no harm" is the rule in doubtful cases.-- Samiharris 14:30, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Again, just like Michael Moore whose criticisms have been noted on other pages. |3 E |_ |_ 0 VV E |) 14:38, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I've expanded the Media Matters response, but still believe that a third party reliable source is required on this. I do not believe that this section is fair or should remain in the encyclopedia.-- Samiharris 14:40, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Sami, I like your edit and commend you on expanding Media Matter's comment. This is the right way to edit.
Can someone find some sort of policy or a precedent set in some similar case? Because that's what matters, not fear of litigation. If we open that door then Wikipedia is going to become chaos and anything could be interpreted as libelous and Wikipedia's policies will be thrown out the window.
Back to the policies, if we find a policy or precedent that would not allow for comments by an O'Reilly, then we've also got to go through Wikipedia and remove criticisms by the Michael Moore's and alot of other notables who have agendas. This would be bad because these things deserve to be in the encyclopedia, but since there might be an agenda, we'll have to remove it. We also will have to call into question alot of biased news-sources, like counterpunch, which have been accepted thus far. |3 E |_ |_ 0 VV E |) 15:11, 15 June 2007 (UTC)