- I think the first sentence of the second paragraph needs some copyediting. It's not clear who "he" is referring to, and "but moved on" could probably be replaced with just "and"
- "He" refers, of course, to George Meany, and the purpose of the phrasing "moved on" is intended to indicate that the change from an ordinary working plumber to a paid union official was a major career change.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
07:09, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- I knew what was meant by "he" and "moving on", but since his father was just being discussed in the prior sentence, we should avoid ambiguous phrases like "he" unless it's clear which "he" we're referring to. I don't dispute whether his career change was major or not, but just calling it a career change (for example) would work. He didn't literally "move on" after all, that's a turn of phrase.
CorporateM (
Talk)
08:10, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- I have rewritten the sentences taking your concerns into consideration.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
16:03, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Done
- "uncompromising anti-communism" could do with less metaphorical language ("uncompromising") and more clarification. What is meant by this?
- What is meant is that a truly major ideological split in the 20th century American trade union movement was between those who were sympathetic or accommodating to communism, and those who rejected it forcefully (without compromise). Meany was indisputedly in the second camp, and we need language that makes that crystal clear.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
07:09, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Something more specific for example might be something like "He advocated in favor of anti-communist principles during the
Red_Scare#Second_Red_Scare_.281947.E2.80.931957.29 second red scare, a period in which many Americans were fearful of increasing communist influence." "uncompromising" is another turn of phrase. His willingness (or lack thereof) to compromise isn't really what we're talking about. What is meant is that he had strong views.
CorporateM (
Talk)
08:10, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- I find it striking how often sources writing about Meany use intensifying adjectives when describing his anti-communism. I will abbreviate it as AC for brevity. I found "outspoken AC", "vigorous AC", "too inflexibly AC", "notorious AC", "quintessential cold warrior and AC", "fierce AC", "strong willed AC", "strident AC", "stalwart AC" and the AFL-CIO under his leadership "a bastion of AC". I believe that "uncompromising" summarizes these sources well, but as always, am willing to consider other wording. As for the so called Second Red Scare, which I call McCarthyism, Meany's anticommunism predated it and lasted long after McCarthy was a discredited figure.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
23:03, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- I have just added the Washington Post obituary of Meany to the article, which I just found online today. It says that he was "uncompromisingly opposed to communism and Communists in all their guises."
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
07:03, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- He was called the "most nationally recognized labor leader in the country for the more than two decades spanning the middle of the 20th century."[2] <-- Anything that is quoted should have attribution to who said it. I would also prefer if this was near the top, as it's his claim to notability, which usually goes first. If we could get it out of quotes and paraphrase it, that would be even better.
- This quote is cited to "The Columbia Guide to Irish American History", where the quote appears at the beginning of the section about Meany. I believe that quoting is preferable to paraphrasing when making a strong assertion like this, but I am willing to reconsider.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
06:59, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- A few comments.
WP:MOSQUOTE says that attribution should be used "to present emotive opinions that should not be expressed in Wikipedia's own voice."
Wikipedia:Quotations says "Attribution should be provided in the text of the article, not exclusively in a footnote or citation." MOSQUOTE says that paraphrasing versus quoting is optional, but I personally agree with Wikipedia:Quotations, when it says "Where a quotation presents rhetorical language in place of more neutral, dispassionate tone preferred for encyclopedias, it can be a backdoor method of inserting a non-neutral treatment of a controversial subject into Wikipedia's narrative on the subject, and should be avoided." Meaning quotations often insert editorialized, non-neutral language from the source that wouldn't otherwise be seen as acceptable.
- I have paraphrased the assertion.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
16:03, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Regarding the source itself, I see that it's a sort of directory of short bios on notable figures. Is it reliable enough for such a bold claim?
CorporateM (
Talk)
08:35, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Given that it is published by Columbia University Press, my opinion is that it is an ideal source for a sweeping claim. More importantly, I am unaware of any reliable source that would call anyone other than Meany the best known mid 20th century US labor leader.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
16:03, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Done
- "plumber's union local.[5]" was this intended to be "local plumber's union"?
- No, in the parlance of the American trade union movement, "local" is a noun rather than an adjective. A "local" is the lowest level branch of a union, operating usually in a defined geographical area.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
07:13, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Please see
Local union for an explanation of the terminology.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
07:25, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Done Understood.
CorporateM (
Talk)
08:36, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "That union had been formed in 1889. Michael Meany was also a precinct level activist in the Democratic Party." This is a bit too much information about his father, IMO, but since it is sourced to an article about Meany, it's fair game. My suggestion would still be to trim it.
- I believe that a few sentences about his father's background, which clearly influenced Meany's career as discussed in many biographical sources, are worthy of inclusion. If you disagree, I will remove mention of his father's Democratic Party activism.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
07:17, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Done Now that I've gotten further down the article, I see that his son also got involved in politics, so the relevance is a little more clear. Suggest leaving it be.
CorporateM (
Talk)
08:37, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "Following in his father's footsteps" <- Metaphorical language should be avoided. Can we find a way to re-word this that is more literal?
- I have changed this to "Following his father's career path".
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
07:22, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Done Works for me, though I would go with something more like "He pursued a similar career as his father, doing ____" so there's no "following" going on either, but this is fine too.
CorporateM (
Talk)
08:38, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "Following in his father's footsteps, Meany quit high school at the age of 16[7] to work as a plumber's helper,[4] served a five-year apprenticeship as a plumber, and got his journeyman's certificate[5] in 1917 with Local 463 United Association of Plumbers and Steamfitters of the United States and Canada.[2]" <-- a bit of a run-on; needs to be split into two sentences.
- I have broken this into two sentences.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
07:29, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Done Just marking this off so I can keep track of which ones are closed
CorporateM (
Talk)
08:40, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "became the sole support for his mother and six younger children", the sole "supporter"?
- The cited source uses the phrase "sole support" so I have paraphrased to "sole source of income".
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
17:26, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Done
- "They had three daughters." <-- unsourced
- I have cited that to the New York Times obituary, where it is the final sentence.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
17:21, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Done
- "Rise in union leadership" <-- would probably be better just as "union leadership"
- I changed it.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
16:21, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Done
CorporateM (
Talk)
22:56, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "which was then considered an innovative tactic for a union" <- this could use some explanation/context
- The cited source on page 328 describes his use of the injunction as "innovative" and says that it scandalized the old timers in the labor movement. Previously, injunctions were used by management against labor, not by labor against management. I believe that I summarized the source accurately, but will think about another way to phrase it.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
16:21, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Can we include a brief description of "World Federation of Trade Unions" like "of the union trade group, the World Federation of Trade Unions" (or something along those lines), to give readers some context, without having to click on the link
- I have expanded that part a bit, clarifying the fact that the WFTU was widely seen as communist controlled, and that Meany opposed participation in it from its very beginning.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
16:38, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Done
- "Meany, in a blow against Lewis and other left-wing union leaders, replied that he would "go further and sign an affadavit that I was never a comrade to the comrades."[4]" <-- "in a blow" is more metaphorical language. I'm not sure I understand the significance of his quote or what he means by it. Did he do anything specific and significant about this subject other than comment on it?
- I rephrased, eliminating "blow". The quote comes from the New York Times obituary, and in my opinion, represents Meany's clever and cutting rhetorical style. By "the comrades", he means communists in the U.S. labor movement. Employing double use of the word by saying "never a comrade", he states that not only was he not a communist himself, but also that he never had friendly relationships with the communists. He ostracized them.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
16:44, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- As for what he did specifically, he used his considerable power to make union leaders sign the loyalty oath that many objected to.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
16:46, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- The second half of the second to last paragraph is unsourced
- I believe that every paragraph in the article is now referenced. Please let me know if I have missed anything.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
05:49, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- There seems to be a compelling argument to "merge" (pun intended) this with the prior section, where the merge is already mentioned and there is some redundancy. Sub-sections could be used to break it up a bit.
- The merger of the AFL and the CIO is now a subsection of union leadership. I also moved the ILA corruption paragraph to the more appropriate section.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
17:29, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Second half of the first paragraph is unsourced
- I believe that every paragraph in the article is now referenced. Please let me know if I have missed anything.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
05:50, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "greatest achievement" <- as a quote, we need attribution to who said it.
- I attributed that to Time magazine.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
23:53, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Campaign against corruption
- This is a very long section title and like the prior one covers something already mentioned in the main union leadership section. I would recommend a Career section with a sub-section on combatting corruption.
- I shortened the section title, and as noted above, moved the ILA paragraph here.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
17:31, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- The first paragraph is unsourced
- I believe that every paragraph in the article is now referenced. Please let me know if I have missed anything.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
05:51, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Democratic economic planning
- In general, we shouldn't include it every time an article-subject makes a comment about something. It's unclear to me whether he did something of significance here? It just says he made comments.
- I merged it into the legislative agenda section. He wasn't making an offhand comment; he was setting policy for a powerful political interest group.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
17:33, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Merged as described above.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
17:34, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
I would still encourage more consolidation. The bottom half of the article is mostly made up of one paragraph sections and many of them are on similar subjects. It's not prescriptive, but here's an example of how I would probably structure it:
Early life
Career
- Early work
- AFL President
- Advocacy
- Against corruption
- Against communism
- Politics
- Later years
Legacy
CorporateM (
Talk)
23:05, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Although I have not adopted your specific structure, I have consolidated and merged several sections based on your advice. Here are some thoughts: Mentioning the predecessor AFL in that structure, but not the AFL-CIO, is a bit strange. The creation of the merged federation was his greatest accomplishment and it was leadership of the AFL-CIO for decades that made him a truly national figure. Creating a section called "advocacy" is also a bit problematic, as I see it. I see an "advocate" as either an attorney or some sort of activist. He was not an attorney nor an activist. He was an elected forceful leader of union groups, initially with thousands of members, then hundreds of thousands of members, then millions of members. He was not an "advocate" but rather he hired and fired advocates, and gave them their marching orders.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
03:48, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Lead
Done
Early life
- "staunch trade unionist" -> suggest something like "strong union supporter" per our discussion about editorialized quotes. If you prefer to keep it, it should at least have attribution.
- I paraphrased it instead.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
05:05, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "That union had been formed in 1889." <- probably trimmable
- Factoid removed.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
05:10, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "pneumonia" -> suggest wikilink
- Wikilinked, along with Myocardial infarction piped to heart attack.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
05:21, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Done That's all I have for this section
Union Leadership
- Can we give the first several paragraphs a sub-section?
- I created subsections for his New York years, and his Washington, DC, years before the merger creating the AFL-CIO.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
06:37, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "a full-time business agent" <- what is meant by this?
- "Business agent" is a term that any reader familiar with the day-to-day workings of U.S. trade union movement will understand instantly. But I think that most readers will understand it at least roughly based on the plain meaning of the words. Merriam-Webster defines it as "one that handles business affairs for another; esp :a paid official of a union local who administers union business with its members and with the employer." So, it is similar to "local office manager" or "branch manager" in a corporate context. I see no need for further explanation.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
05:45, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "New York City Building Trades Council" <- need to tell the reader what this is
- Clarified.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
05:57, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- What is a lockout? Can we wikilink it?
- The exact opposite of a strike. I have wikilinked it.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
06:16, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Can we call them something besides "old-timers"? ;-)
- For your sake, I have called them "older leaders". I was tempted to call them alter kockers but refrained.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
06:16, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "New York State Federation of Labor." <- need to tell the reader what it is
- I added a clarifying clause.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
06:16, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "In his first year of lobbying in Albany" -> Suggest wikilink for Albany. Also, was this sentence intended to mean he was lobbying Albany city laws?
- Wikilinked Albany, explained it is the state capital, clarified that is it was the state legislature that he was lobbying.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
05:57, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "He developed a reputation for honesty, diligence and the ability to testify effectively before legislative hearings and speak clearly to the press." Because this is such a bold claim, I would prefer the source follow it directly. The source does look strong enough to support it.
- I added the Zieger source right after this.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
06:41, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "In 1936, he co-founded a ____ organization called the American Labor Party" - same, reader needs to know what it is
- Clarified that it was a New York pro-union political party.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
06:41, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "among other Socialists in the union movement"?
- There is no doubt that Meany was close to the anti-communist moderate socialists and that Michael Harrington (who I admired and once met) tried to classify Meany as some kind of socialist. But Meany never self identified as a socialist and was never a member of an overtly socialist group. The ALP was probably closest. So, let's not imply that he himself was a socialist.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
06:48, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "or.[7] where he served un" <-- needs a comma instead of a period
- Corrected typo.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
07:00, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "under AFL president William Green. During World War II, he was one" Suggest calling him by name (Meany) to avoid ambiguity with "he" potentially referring to William Green in this case
- "close ties" -> "close relationships" to avoid metaphors
- "U.S. labor movement" <- is there a wikilink? What movement is this? This is long before I was born, so I don't know what it's referring to. Or was it meant to refer to organized labor interests in general.
- More so your final sentence. It is the common phrase describing the shared informal alliance among unions, who have certain interests in common. It is not a formally organized movement, though the AFL-CIO strived with only moderate success to unite it. Again, those interested in the topic will understand it while those unfamiliar should have a rough concept by the plain meaning of the words.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
07:00, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Some suggested copyediting: "The strike wave of 1945-1946, led to a large extent by CIO unions, resulted in passage of the Taft Hartley Act in 1947, which was
widely perceived as anti-union in its effects." Also was Meany influential in this? Besides his comment it doesn't explain his involvement. Usually something like this will say "under his leadership"
- I added a cited observation that almost all non-communist union leaders signed the affidavit after Meany insisted they do so, and that the Supreme Court upheld it.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
07:00, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- You've got a period followed by a comma after "Green's death"; appears to be a typo
Done
Remaining
- "and was later called a communist front group." This is currently unsourced and requires a very strong one
- I added a source from Oxford University Press.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
21:18, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "fighting back" -> more metaphors. "In response" The rest of this looks much clearer now, but rather than "making it clear", which I presume is your opinion, I would say something like "meaning that he ostracized even having relationships with communists." (or something)
- I rephrased using less metaphors.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
21:25, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "which occurred just 12 days after the death of Congress of Industrial Organizations president Philip Murray. Walter Reuther of the United Auto Workers became president of the CIO." still unsourced. Actually my suggestion would be to push the last couple sentences or so into the beginning of the section on the merger
- I added a 1952 newspaper source that comments on the fact that these two key union federation leaders died 12 days apart. Reuther taking control of the CIO at that time is common knowledge reported in hundreds of sources.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
06:25, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- I also moved the material about the deaths of Murray and Green to the merger section, since those deaths precipitated the merger negotiations.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
06:44, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- See the Citation Needed annotations.
- I added references there.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
22:13, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- A lot of hyper-editorialized quotes, most of them could be replaced with an NPOV summary of their argument
- If you are referring to the three quotes from union leaders opposing the merger, I believe that their use is appropriate here. These were not random people, they were powerful senior union leaders. As I see it, the quotes express the intensity of their opposition in a useful way.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
21:48, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Done Nothing else for this section besides these two
CorporateM (
Talk)
16:44, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Citation 36 is a broken link and a primary source
- Citation 29 is a broken link and looks to be a primary source? Would have to see it
- I removed the paragraph about the National Labor College, since it closed down last year.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
22:15, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- I updated the URL and the title from the website of the Kennedy Presidential Library. It is not really a primary source which would be the actual text of the executive order. It is the library's contemporary description of the founding of the modern award, which lists Meany as among the first recipients.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
22:39, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Done The other sources all look good at-a-glance.
CorporateM (
Talk)
16:56, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
A few more unsourced statements from other areas of the article:
- "In 1968, Reuther led the UAW out of the AFL-CIO, and the UAW did not re-affiliate until after Reuther's death in a 1970 plane crash."
- I added several sources about the Reuther-Meany feud, covering all the assertions. I also copy edited for detail and clarity.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
06:01, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "As an anti-communist who identified with the working class, Meany expressed contempt for the New Left, which from the start had criticized the labor movement for conservatism, racism, and its anti-communism, and which in the late 1960s and early 1970s included many supporters of Communist movements, such as the Viet Cong." (note BLP requires in-line references right next to the statement when it's this bold of a statement)
- Though I am not sure what the BLP issue is since Meany is long dead and the New Left was an amorphous movement, I have added two sources. One is a book that is entirely about the relationship between unions and the New Left, which discusses the broader issues in great detail. The other is a specific page in another book about widespread New Left support for the Viet Cong.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
02:32, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- Oh, oops, good point, about him being long dead. I'm use to writing articles about the living!
CorporateM (
Talk)
03:15, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "According to Meany, class resentment was a major reason that Nixon won 49 states against McGovern, despite the dislike of the Vietnam War by a majority of American voters."
- Although I believe that this statement is true in general, I have removed it. This was added by another editor several years ago who liked to add unreferenced assertions, knowing that I was not in the mood to fight with him. I have found no record of Meany using the term "class resentment" in this context, and such a phrase was not in his rhetorical style, in my opinion.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
03:19, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- "In November 1979, he retired from the AFL-CIO after a 57 year career in organized labor. He was succeeded by Lane Kirkland, who served as AFL-CIO president for the next 16 years."
- I added a source for Meany's retirement and Kirkland taking over.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
22:56, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
Against corruption section
- What is an anti-corruption drive?
- I changed that to "a campaign to reform that union" which I think is more clear.
Cullen328
Let's discuss it
19:49, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
- I think the second paragraph could be trimmed to be just the first sentence of the following paragraph, as Meany's response is what's most relevant to his profile
Done That's all I have for this section. I made various copyedits directly.
CorporateM (
Talk)
07:24, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
reply
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