![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I find it interesting that Mason is ascribed with this title in this article, while Madison is more frequently given that epithet. A Google search for "'Father of the bill of rights' Mason" pulls about 480 responses, while the same with "Madison" pulls about 600. I don't really debate the accuracy of giving Mason the title, since he was always its heaviest proponent, and Madison only supported them after having a turnaround (or religious epiphany, if you want to be idealistic) during his run for the House in VA. I hate these epithets in general, and tend to find they distract people more than they help them, especially when they're ascribed to multiple individuals for multiple reasons. I won't change anything, but I found it questionable, or at least interesting. Uh, discuss, I guess. 69.137.157.78 21:08, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
OK, I'm no expert in the social expectations of Colonial times, but it kind of looks like George Mason just kept getting his wives pregnant over and over until eventually their bodies collapsed under the stress. What the hell?! Sounds like an amazing man to me... maybe that is why he's less well-known than the other founding fathers. -- anonymous
Actually, it says he only had two wives. With the first he fathered 12 children, and with the second he fathered none. Perhaps you're confused by the fact that the article also lists his children's marriages, and the children that they had. (What I don't understand is why the article should include a list of all of Mason's children's spouses and children. It strikes me as kind of irrelevant.) -- Tim314 22:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Okay, first please understand that I am in no way, shape, or form endorsing or justifying slavery, just attempting to place the statement into historical context based on my own POV.
That said, many early "founding father" types owned slaves yet were against slavery. My take on the reasoning is simple economics, e.g., the need to continue to operate plantations. Where else were they going to get the labor pool? Even though technically categorized as slaves, the degree of "forced, uncompensated labor" was variable from owner to owner. Some slaveowners were more benevolent than others, even going as far as to allow slaves to own property, farm private plots, and sell their services or extra produce.
JMHO, Mmoyer 23:57, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I totally disagree about the economic view. You sound like Charles Beard in a pessimistic mood. The Founding Fathers didn't want to get rid of their slaves is because they could not give up their services. It was a vice not a necessary evil as some would think. The Constitution is all about what the country is supposed to turn out as not what they wanted right then. They knew they weren't perfect, but people still deify them. They were hoping their children would finish the job. The labor was everywhere there were so many people without work that the veterans revolted when they couldn't pay their taxes. They had grown accustomed to slavery but were hoping the next generation would be better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.13.52.149 ( talk) 03:35, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
This article's lead provides a good introduction to the topic, but some of its sentences are awkward and repetitive. I'm going to copyedit it, and list my changes here. Huntthetroll ( talk) 05:54, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Edit #1
Also, another gripe: What is that random paragraph about Mason's stance on slavery doing in the lead? It doesn't logically follow from the preceding paragraph at all. I'm going to see if I can find a better place for it.
Huntthetroll (
talk)
06:20, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Edit #2
Huntthetroll ( talk) 06:55, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Specified "Bill Of Rights" on the main page as United States Bill of Rights so there would be a useful link. I'm happy if it's changed back, as long as there's a link to the US Bill of Rights he was the father of that a visitor can click with confidence instead of having to try the [1][2][3][4] refs - I think there should be one such.
Removed the "waka waka wee" comment on this talk page. -- HenrikErlandsson ( talk) 02:26, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
Slavery cannot be 'repugnant' to a slaveholder, by the definition of the term 'repugnant'. The subject may have held views that slavery should eventually be eliminated (he did, in fact) but any definition of 'repugnant' does not square with the person continuing to actively engage in the activity, and Mason did not even manumit his slaves in his will. Please feel free to alter the language so that this inaccuracy is corrected. ToFeignClef ( talk) 18:03, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Is the 11 December 1725 birth date Old Style or New? — AjaxSmack 21:56, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on George Mason. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 03:21, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
Considerable vandalism in the last day or two. I do not regard myself as competent to repair it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by John W. Kennedy ( talk • contribs) 00:30, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
Seriously? A person with coordinates? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.40.48.159 ( talk) 10:09, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
...has diction problems in its final sentence. Namely, an utterly unclear reference. The present text: The Virginia Declaration of Rights, which Mason principally authored, served as a basis for the United States Bill of Rights, of which he has been deemed the father. Sounds to me like Mason has been deemed the father of the United States Bill of Rights. How this could read better: The Virginia Declaration of Rights, which Mason principally authored and (of which he has been deemed the father)(*this could use a citation), served as a basis for the United States Bill of Rights. 2604:6000:1405:97C:84DB:A323:F165:BAE0 ( talk) 19:57, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
Section "Wartime legislator", 3rd paragraphy: "...Where is Mason, Wythe, Jefferson, Nicholas, Pendleton, Nelson?"
I guess Nicholas is George Nicholas, but who is Nelson?-- Jarodalien ( talk) 07:47, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available
on the course page. Visiting Scholar
Wehwalt has worked on it.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 08:50, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
Should it be "co-founder" with Madison, or is the stand-alone designation of "father" adequate here? I consider Mason the father, but there are differences of opinion and likely differences in sources. Thanks. Randy Kryn ( talk) 13:44, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I find it interesting that Mason is ascribed with this title in this article, while Madison is more frequently given that epithet. A Google search for "'Father of the bill of rights' Mason" pulls about 480 responses, while the same with "Madison" pulls about 600. I don't really debate the accuracy of giving Mason the title, since he was always its heaviest proponent, and Madison only supported them after having a turnaround (or religious epiphany, if you want to be idealistic) during his run for the House in VA. I hate these epithets in general, and tend to find they distract people more than they help them, especially when they're ascribed to multiple individuals for multiple reasons. I won't change anything, but I found it questionable, or at least interesting. Uh, discuss, I guess. 69.137.157.78 21:08, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
OK, I'm no expert in the social expectations of Colonial times, but it kind of looks like George Mason just kept getting his wives pregnant over and over until eventually their bodies collapsed under the stress. What the hell?! Sounds like an amazing man to me... maybe that is why he's less well-known than the other founding fathers. -- anonymous
Actually, it says he only had two wives. With the first he fathered 12 children, and with the second he fathered none. Perhaps you're confused by the fact that the article also lists his children's marriages, and the children that they had. (What I don't understand is why the article should include a list of all of Mason's children's spouses and children. It strikes me as kind of irrelevant.) -- Tim314 22:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Okay, first please understand that I am in no way, shape, or form endorsing or justifying slavery, just attempting to place the statement into historical context based on my own POV.
That said, many early "founding father" types owned slaves yet were against slavery. My take on the reasoning is simple economics, e.g., the need to continue to operate plantations. Where else were they going to get the labor pool? Even though technically categorized as slaves, the degree of "forced, uncompensated labor" was variable from owner to owner. Some slaveowners were more benevolent than others, even going as far as to allow slaves to own property, farm private plots, and sell their services or extra produce.
JMHO, Mmoyer 23:57, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I totally disagree about the economic view. You sound like Charles Beard in a pessimistic mood. The Founding Fathers didn't want to get rid of their slaves is because they could not give up their services. It was a vice not a necessary evil as some would think. The Constitution is all about what the country is supposed to turn out as not what they wanted right then. They knew they weren't perfect, but people still deify them. They were hoping their children would finish the job. The labor was everywhere there were so many people without work that the veterans revolted when they couldn't pay their taxes. They had grown accustomed to slavery but were hoping the next generation would be better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.13.52.149 ( talk) 03:35, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
This article's lead provides a good introduction to the topic, but some of its sentences are awkward and repetitive. I'm going to copyedit it, and list my changes here. Huntthetroll ( talk) 05:54, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Edit #1
Also, another gripe: What is that random paragraph about Mason's stance on slavery doing in the lead? It doesn't logically follow from the preceding paragraph at all. I'm going to see if I can find a better place for it.
Huntthetroll (
talk)
06:20, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Edit #2
Huntthetroll ( talk) 06:55, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Specified "Bill Of Rights" on the main page as United States Bill of Rights so there would be a useful link. I'm happy if it's changed back, as long as there's a link to the US Bill of Rights he was the father of that a visitor can click with confidence instead of having to try the [1][2][3][4] refs - I think there should be one such.
Removed the "waka waka wee" comment on this talk page. -- HenrikErlandsson ( talk) 02:26, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
Slavery cannot be 'repugnant' to a slaveholder, by the definition of the term 'repugnant'. The subject may have held views that slavery should eventually be eliminated (he did, in fact) but any definition of 'repugnant' does not square with the person continuing to actively engage in the activity, and Mason did not even manumit his slaves in his will. Please feel free to alter the language so that this inaccuracy is corrected. ToFeignClef ( talk) 18:03, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Is the 11 December 1725 birth date Old Style or New? — AjaxSmack 21:56, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on George Mason. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 03:21, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
Considerable vandalism in the last day or two. I do not regard myself as competent to repair it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by John W. Kennedy ( talk • contribs) 00:30, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
Seriously? A person with coordinates? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.40.48.159 ( talk) 10:09, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
...has diction problems in its final sentence. Namely, an utterly unclear reference. The present text: The Virginia Declaration of Rights, which Mason principally authored, served as a basis for the United States Bill of Rights, of which he has been deemed the father. Sounds to me like Mason has been deemed the father of the United States Bill of Rights. How this could read better: The Virginia Declaration of Rights, which Mason principally authored and (of which he has been deemed the father)(*this could use a citation), served as a basis for the United States Bill of Rights. 2604:6000:1405:97C:84DB:A323:F165:BAE0 ( talk) 19:57, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
Section "Wartime legislator", 3rd paragraphy: "...Where is Mason, Wythe, Jefferson, Nicholas, Pendleton, Nelson?"
I guess Nicholas is George Nicholas, but who is Nelson?-- Jarodalien ( talk) 07:47, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available
on the course page. Visiting Scholar
Wehwalt has worked on it.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 08:50, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
Should it be "co-founder" with Madison, or is the stand-alone designation of "father" adequate here? I consider Mason the father, but there are differences of opinion and likely differences in sources. Thanks. Randy Kryn ( talk) 13:44, 17 September 2023 (UTC)