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This article is within the scope of WikiProject Soviet Union, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
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the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Soviet UnionWikipedia:WikiProject Soviet UnionTemplate:WikiProject Soviet UnionSoviet Union articles
George Koval is within the scope of WikiProject Espionage, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of
espionage,
intelligence, and related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the
project page, or contribute to the
discussion.EspionageWikipedia:WikiProject EspionageTemplate:WikiProject EspionageEspionage articles
Most of the material in this article has no cited source. From the editing history, most contributions have been made by single purpose accounts or anonymous ips, apparently Russians, who have used information from Russian sources. It would be helpful if they could identify those sources.
Fred Bauder 15:15, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Age: In one place it says he was 94, in another 92 years old. I calculate 93 years old at time of death from the DOB. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
131.225.136.60 (
talk) 13:21, 13 November 2007 (UTC)reply
Arthur Adams
Nothing on the web collaborates the information about Arthur Adams, code name, Achilles.
Fred Bauder 15:15, 12 November 2007 (UTC)reply
Champion tractor driver?
Why does it mention that his brother was a champion tractor driver in the early life section? The information is uncited and seemingly irrelevant to Koval's early life. --~
TPW 13:22, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
So is irrelevant to Koval's life the restatement that he did not find himself in Gulag when he was more old. -
91.122.13.129 (
talk) 21:20, 25 October 2013 (UTC)reply
The first is a fact about his brother, not himself. The second... say, for example, when you are an encyclopaedic person and you happen to work as a builder, the statement that you are a builder is surely relevant for describing your life. But if you do not work as a builder, then the statement, that you are not one, would not be relevant in an encyclopaedic article that describes you. The same for Gulags. Both are literary details rather than relevant pieces of fact. -
91.122.5.138 (
talk) 13:34, 26 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Your comparison doesn't exactly work. The point of the line is that Koval described himself as lucky, despite never really being recognized for his work; many other former spies were disposed of, rather than allowed to retire or move on to other professions. It's directly relevant.
Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(
talk) 17:46, 26 October 2013 (UTC)reply
featured article?
I'm not an expert, but does this article really deserve to be featured? I understand that there might not be many reliable sources on him
Jonathansuh (
talk) 20:46, 30 March 2015 (UTC)reply
I find the idea of topics "deserving" featured status odd, since whether they are featured or not is entirely a function of editor effort.
Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(
talk) 21:20, 30 March 2015 (UTC)reply
That's not what I meant. I was talking about the relative short length of the article and few sources...
Jonathansuh (
talk) 21:37, 30 March 2015 (UTC)reply
I've reverted
the recent additions as I think they create undue weight issues. The facts that the Russian government claimed Koval did xyz are not in dispute; the question of what he actually did is definitely less clear, and hence why the article currently mentions two views that contrast with the official government position (if not disputing it wholesale, than offering up additional shading.) I reverted the additions because they felt like they were excessively privileging a "dissent" view beyond that supported by the sourcing and the length of the article overall. In addition, the use of a 1994 book raises concerns about potential out-of-date scholarship or original research. As the article itself says, Delmar's role was only significantly covered in the years after that book, so using it in a section downplaying Delmar's efforts seems like it's ignoring more recent scholarship that has the benefit of larger context.
Der Wohltemperierte Fuchstalk 19:06, 19 January 2022 (UTC)reply
All the arguments from the 1994 article are as relevant now as they were then, although I will try to look up a newer source. No one below Kurchatov (who was a manager rather than a scientist or a designer) was cleared to know about the intelligence information, if you have a more recent source stating otherwise, please provide it. BTW, quoting anonymous "Russian military officials" as a reliable source is a total lunacy, IMHO. No amount of Putin's political spinning of this intelligence success seven decades years ago can change the well-established fact that Soviet nuclear bomb was indigenous.
Ain92 (
talk) 11:28, 20 January 2022 (UTC)reply
We deal with
verifiability, not truth, hence why I'm asking for additional sources that demonstrate that in this article about Koval, more of it needs to be spent offering up alternative theories than presented. If you feel strongly about it we can look at starting an RfC.
Der Wohltemperierte Fuchstalk 22:17, 20 January 2022 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Soviet Union, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Soviet UnionWikipedia:WikiProject Soviet UnionTemplate:WikiProject Soviet UnionSoviet Union articles
George Koval is within the scope of WikiProject Espionage, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of
espionage,
intelligence, and related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the
project page, or contribute to the
discussion.EspionageWikipedia:WikiProject EspionageTemplate:WikiProject EspionageEspionage articles
Most of the material in this article has no cited source. From the editing history, most contributions have been made by single purpose accounts or anonymous ips, apparently Russians, who have used information from Russian sources. It would be helpful if they could identify those sources.
Fred Bauder 15:15, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Age: In one place it says he was 94, in another 92 years old. I calculate 93 years old at time of death from the DOB. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
131.225.136.60 (
talk) 13:21, 13 November 2007 (UTC)reply
Arthur Adams
Nothing on the web collaborates the information about Arthur Adams, code name, Achilles.
Fred Bauder 15:15, 12 November 2007 (UTC)reply
Champion tractor driver?
Why does it mention that his brother was a champion tractor driver in the early life section? The information is uncited and seemingly irrelevant to Koval's early life. --~
TPW 13:22, 14 November 2011 (UTC)reply
So is irrelevant to Koval's life the restatement that he did not find himself in Gulag when he was more old. -
91.122.13.129 (
talk) 21:20, 25 October 2013 (UTC)reply
The first is a fact about his brother, not himself. The second... say, for example, when you are an encyclopaedic person and you happen to work as a builder, the statement that you are a builder is surely relevant for describing your life. But if you do not work as a builder, then the statement, that you are not one, would not be relevant in an encyclopaedic article that describes you. The same for Gulags. Both are literary details rather than relevant pieces of fact. -
91.122.5.138 (
talk) 13:34, 26 October 2013 (UTC)reply
Your comparison doesn't exactly work. The point of the line is that Koval described himself as lucky, despite never really being recognized for his work; many other former spies were disposed of, rather than allowed to retire or move on to other professions. It's directly relevant.
Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(
talk) 17:46, 26 October 2013 (UTC)reply
featured article?
I'm not an expert, but does this article really deserve to be featured? I understand that there might not be many reliable sources on him
Jonathansuh (
talk) 20:46, 30 March 2015 (UTC)reply
I find the idea of topics "deserving" featured status odd, since whether they are featured or not is entirely a function of editor effort.
Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(
talk) 21:20, 30 March 2015 (UTC)reply
That's not what I meant. I was talking about the relative short length of the article and few sources...
Jonathansuh (
talk) 21:37, 30 March 2015 (UTC)reply
I've reverted
the recent additions as I think they create undue weight issues. The facts that the Russian government claimed Koval did xyz are not in dispute; the question of what he actually did is definitely less clear, and hence why the article currently mentions two views that contrast with the official government position (if not disputing it wholesale, than offering up additional shading.) I reverted the additions because they felt like they were excessively privileging a "dissent" view beyond that supported by the sourcing and the length of the article overall. In addition, the use of a 1994 book raises concerns about potential out-of-date scholarship or original research. As the article itself says, Delmar's role was only significantly covered in the years after that book, so using it in a section downplaying Delmar's efforts seems like it's ignoring more recent scholarship that has the benefit of larger context.
Der Wohltemperierte Fuchstalk 19:06, 19 January 2022 (UTC)reply
All the arguments from the 1994 article are as relevant now as they were then, although I will try to look up a newer source. No one below Kurchatov (who was a manager rather than a scientist or a designer) was cleared to know about the intelligence information, if you have a more recent source stating otherwise, please provide it. BTW, quoting anonymous "Russian military officials" as a reliable source is a total lunacy, IMHO. No amount of Putin's political spinning of this intelligence success seven decades years ago can change the well-established fact that Soviet nuclear bomb was indigenous.
Ain92 (
talk) 11:28, 20 January 2022 (UTC)reply
We deal with
verifiability, not truth, hence why I'm asking for additional sources that demonstrate that in this article about Koval, more of it needs to be spent offering up alternative theories than presented. If you feel strongly about it we can look at starting an RfC.
Der Wohltemperierte Fuchstalk 22:17, 20 January 2022 (UTC)reply