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What is the correct date of birth? Deb 11:48, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Weasel words removed, citations added and article expanded. Jezhotwells ( talk) 13:43, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
I've changed the priorities in the list of the TF's uses. It is primarily a performance venue (opera, theatre &c), not a retaurant and café bar. Ioan_Dyfrig ( talk) 14:13, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
Now that he's been elected Mayor of Bristol, should we perhaps change the article's title? Although previously best known as an architect, he is now far better known for his political role. Yunshui 雲 水 09:44, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
You are invited to the Bristol Wiki Meetup which will take place at The Commercial Rooms, 43-45 Corn Street, Bristol BS1 1HT on Sunday 28 July 2013 from 1.00 pm. If you have never been to one, this is an opportunity to meet other Wikipedians in an informal atmosphere for Wiki and non-Wiki related chat and for beer or food if you like. Experienced and new contributors are all welcome. This event is definitely not restricted just to discussion of Bristol topics. Bring your laptop if you like and use the free Wifi or just bring yourself. Even better, bring a friend! Click the link for full details. Looking forward to seeing you. Philafrenzy ( talk) 11:29, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered. |
1) This section describes a current controversy regarding budget cuts proposed by Bristol City Council, which is led by George Ferguson in capacity of mayor. It is likely that an author is using this biography as a soapbox, since this section constitutes a disproportionately large proportion (~25%) of the description of the life and career of GF. WP:RECENTISM
2) This section is biased, since it does not mention the resolution of the controversy, published by Bristol City Council at http://www.bristol.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/leisure_and_culture/parks_and_open_spaces/nature_reserves_and_major_parks/Reason%20for%20updated%20proposal.pdf
This section should be removed from the biography. -- 78.147.11.45 ( talk) 23:08, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Been removed, as per request above.--
89.242.230.78 (
talk)
19:31, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
The creating editor has reverted the deletion without comment or justification.
This section "Hengrove Play Park Proposal" still needs to be removed, for the reasons given above, and this article protected.--
2.99.239.167 (
talk)
13:09, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest was declined. The changes suggested removing content that is well-cited or where sources exist. |
First of all I'd like to apologise about my late response. I didn't know that this removal request existed until today (6 January 2014) so I couldn't write a reply on the Mayor of Bristol's talk page. I'm sorry.
After reading the reasons why the section should be removed I was left bemused. The section is no longer "bias" because it stated the "resolution of the controversy, published by Bristol City Council" upon deletion.
Furthermore, I am not using the section for a "soapbox" and it does not "constitutes a disproportionately large proportion" because of the large amount of information related to the topic of interest available online and through local/ national newspapers.
George Ferguson is highly involved with the Hengrove Play Park proposal and should be credited. His comments on the situation have been mentioned throughout. Because of his high self-confessed involvement with his Council's proposal and negative criticism about Ferguson's decisions he has directly been receiving through social networking sites such as Twitter, the section should remain on the article for the time being because of its appeal to local Bristolians, the south-west region and general Wikipedian visitors.
The section is going to be re-added.
Wormwell ( talk) 17:43, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
The "Hengrove Park" addition is clearly contentious. William Avery advised/requested to discuss the "Hengrove Park" on this talk page before it is accepted. Wormwell has not discussed or justified the addition, but rather has made a statement and has then replaced the disputed paragraphs. I have subsequently removed it again pending discussion and agreement. Wormwell says "The section is going to be re-added." This statement does not suggest a spirit of collaboration. It is in the spirit of Wikipedia for editors to collaborate on articles.
Wormwell says that "the section should remain on the article for the time being". It is one of the editorial policies of Wikipedia that articles should not be edited to reflect current or contemporary issues. This is called "Recentism", and is to be avoided. Using Wikipedia to voice opinions about current issues is called "soapboxing".
Annebristolian suggested that the description of this controversy would be more appropriately located in Wikipedia within the "Hengrove Park" article. If this were to happen, it would also need to be summarised so that it does not take up a disproportionate part of the Hengrove Park article. And in the Hengrove Park article, this material would still suffer from "Recentism".
The "George Ferguson" article is a biography. Ferguson is currently a leader, and it is in the nature of leadership that there will be people who disagree with decisions. This is inevitable. Readers in Bristol and abroad will be referring to this article to find out more about Ferguson. It is not helpful for such readers to find that a large proportion of the biography is about just one of many dozens of activities, all of which someone will disagree with. If biographies of leaders often listed in great detail minor activities with which some people disagreed, then Wikipedia would not work at all for biographies.
The "Hengrove Park" section is a large proportion of the biography, yet reports just one activity. To put it into proportion, it could be replaced with the statement "Ferguson has made decisions with which some disagree."
Wormwell, what do you think of my proposal to summarise and move this section to the "Hengrove Park" article, and to replace it with the statement "Ferguson has made decisions with which some disagree"? -- 78.149.13.72 ( talk) 18:32, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Allocating so much of the biography of this living person (almost 25% of the content) to such a minor issue (just one item in the 2014-2017 budget proposal public consultation) violates the neutral point of view and undue weight policies. Therefore, this section has to be removed. As this page currently stands, it is the only issue covered during his entire term as mayor to date, which is significantly out of proportion.
Wormwell writes "None of Ferguson's other proposals have had so much disagreement and public awareness." This is not accurate - for example, the residents parking petition had over 6000 signatures and had significant media coverage on both ITV and BBC. Again, this exemplifies that undue weight has been assigned to this relatively minor issue.
Annebristolian ( talk) 01:41, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
I've deleted this section again because I agree that it gives undue weight to a minor issue and also because it clearly demonstrates bias. For example, it is clear that there was no intention to 'close' the play park (as cited in the section text). It is a matter of opinion whether a reduction in staffing would eventually lead to closure of the park. The core reference is a press release published on the website of a political party. Can Wormwell please respond to the violations mentioned in this post before adding the section yet again.
Marinaswims ( talk) 18:50, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
82.38.238.231 ( talk) 17:12, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
To present a neutral point of view, a fair and balanced review of Ferguson's time in office should be reported to date in this article (in addition to more detail about the contribution he has made to architecture and Bristol prior to taking office). E.g. Ian Onions Bristol Post article at the end of Ferguson's first year. While this has not been done, singling out one minor issue in Ferguson's biography is in violation of Wikipedia policy and must be removed.
So, to answer your question, no, the section cannot be reworded. Perhaps it should be its own article, if some contributors feel strongly that it should be documented in such great detail in Wikipedia as part of Bristol's recent history. However, it doesn't make sense to have it as more than a footnote in Ferguson's biography of 60+ years, if that. Including it here as it is today is completely out of proportion. Rather than continuing to debate this item, why don't we work together to genuinely improve this biography and leave this text out while we do so.
Annebristolian ( talk) 23:52, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Annebristolian ( talk) 22:15, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
Annebristolian states that Wormwell states that ""Annebristolian states that "82.38.238.231 agrees that the undue weight policy has been violated by the addition of this section" but this is incorrect and not true." This is incorrect and not true."" This is incorrect and not true as Wormwell's statement could truly not be incorrect as the user has quoted Annebristolian's statement; a representation that is correct and true.
Annebristolian states that "The unrelated information seems to be this statement from Wormwell." To be accused of stating unrelated information is unfounded, going against Wikipedia's most basic policies. Every contributor has the right to be involved with a discussion, expressing their opinion whether it is perceived as right or wrong or incorrect or true.
Annebristolian states Wormwell's statements are "an attempt to distract the conversation away from the core issue", appearing to manipulate Wormwell's words. Instead of being suggestive, the user seems quite provocative with their simplistic responses.
Peter James states "the source cited the proposal appears to have come from the Liberal Democrats, not from Ferguson", although there are references out there from Ferguson. Peter James also states "it appears to have been given undue weight in the article" suggesting some users would not view the section as having a due weight policy if adapated or summarised. a Annebristolian states "it would be surprising if there was any long-term significance of this issue". This suggest the user should be "surprised" as a "play date" has been arranged by the organsiers of the "Save Hengrove Park" campaign to celebrate Ferguson's amended proposal, months after the issue seemingly became insignificant. The Facebook campaign of the same name is regularly updated too.
Annebristolian states "overall, the council proposed a budget cut, people objected, RoSPA supported the change, and the council removed the budget cut in the next draft. End of story." However, the section is focused on Ferguson's relation with the park and community during his negatively-perceived budget proposal rather than the lifespan of a budget cut.
To not include controversies on Ferguson's biography would encourage incorrect interpretations of our Red Trousers' time in office.
Wormwell ( talk) 14:02, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Recent changes to this page violate the neutral point of view and undue weight policies, such as adding so much content about the recent Twitter storm. Also the cited document did not state that he was "forced" to make an apology, as PearceMT stated.
Annebristolian ( talk) 21:49, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
82.38.238.231 ( talk) 23:29, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
The inbox suggests that he has the nickname "Speeder" but it isn't explained anywhere. 83.104.249.240 ( talk) 21:31, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
I introduced a POV tag because the article appears substantially biased against Ferguson, which is particularly unacceptable in the run up to the 2016 Mayoral election.
1. There are a couple of weasel words eg "ploughed ahead".
2. The article is heavily focused on controversy with very little on changes the public might perceive as good.
3. It cites low quality sources for eg calling Ferguson "Junket George". WykiP ( talk) 00:48, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
Regarding the above:
1. There are a couple of weasel words eg "ploughed ahead".
- removed & edited this
2. The article is heavily focused on controversy with very little on changes the public might perceive as good. - The potentially controversial elements are indicated in sections described thus and focus on the issues around the perception of some of George Ferguson's decisions. I've checked and each seems to be well referenced back to reliable sources. Do you have any 'positive' additions you know of that could could add to improve your perception of unbalanced coverage?
3. It cites low quality sources for eg calling Ferguson "Junket George". - I've checked the reliability of the sources and the main one if referenced back to the Bristol Post, the city's paper of record. There were a number of other instances of people referring to him by that moniker, and less reputable sources, but In my view there is enough to justify the inclusion of the name as one in common usage. I have also searched carefully for the nickname "Red Trousers" and I have found little substantial evidence of this in common usage. Is this something anyone else has come across?
On a general matter I an concerned about your comment that it was "substantially biased against Ferguson, which is particularly unacceptable in the run up to the 2016 Mayoral election." Having read the article several times there are a large number of positive biographical statements (e.g. the Arena, charitable work, 20mph zones)as well as those that might be considered as controversial.
Having made these changes and reviewed the article I have removed the POV tag.
AWR — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.175.235.174 ( talk) 14:12, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
Regarding the above:
Regarding bus fares: First Bus is not a Council owned company and neither it, nor the Mayor have direct control over the fares or the majority of routes. In Council session the Bus companies denied that there had been any "deal" with the Council to reduce fares. Instead they said that the reduced fares had come from a consultation with passengers and partially in response to a well-supported petition by Daniel Farr http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Petition-calls-reduce-Bristol-bus-fares/story-17619677-detail/story.html. Ferguson did sign that petition, but I can't find any other reference to his role in reducing fares. If there is any supportive evidence that could be used to cite this it should certainly go in.
I would suggest that Ferguson's affair is not relevant to him specifically as mayor, but the page is a biography in which his election as mayor is only one element of his life; As such it would be relevant biographical detail e.g. /info/en/?search=Boris_Johnson or /info/en/?search=David_Mellor or /info/en/?search=Edwina_Currie. I would note that the issue of a publicly accountable figure swearing at a member of the public, or a fellow elected representative, is entirely relevant to their political record, e.g. /info/en/?search=Plebgate
AWR — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.175.235.174 ( talk) 14:52, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
Strongly disagree with the removal of the affair as it relates to the break-down of the marriage and the separation from his wife. This is relevant information in a biography. The link isn't broken, it's simply a citation to an article not hosted online. Looking at the date I assume it's before the Bristol Post had a web presence.
Regarding the swearing, again this is relevant in a public figure. I agree that it might be best put in as a separate item regarding his character. PearceMT ( talk) (UTC)
In the light of this discussion, which has helped to improve the article, I see only one POV tag (undue weight) - can this now be removed? The "Public Image" section currently says "At an unveiling of a statue in May 2013, Ferguson used an expletive when responding to repeated questions from a member of the audience. He refused to apologize, stating that the individual had disrupted several public events.[39][undue weight? – discuss]" If there is agreement that this is undue weight I suggest the whole sentence is removed. This would leave a very short one sentence section (which is unsourced) about red trousers - should this also be removed or cited and moved to another section?— Rod talk 10:11, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
There's been a number of major deletions of large sections by potential sock-puppet accounts set up for the purpose this weekend. Please, just a reminder, entries should not be amended just because you disagree with its content. If properly cited and relevant the presumption should be that it stay and discussion be held on this page over amendments. As this person is up for election at present there are likely to be a lot of attempts to change it in coming weeks, either in good faith, or vandalism. Please can we discuss major changes here first? — Preceding unsigned comment added by PearceMT ( talk • contribs) 07:27, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
There have been a large number of changes since the POV tab was added. Is there consensus on this talk page that it can now be removed, or is there need for more additions? I'll wait until noon GMT on the 13th April before removing. Maltaman67 ( talk) 08:35, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
The article was moved in this edit on 12 April - without any prior discussion - from George Ferguson (Mayor of Bristol) to George Ferguson (UK Politician). I have some mixed feelings about the move. Although he was notable as an architect and urbanist, and in his political life is not affiliated to a particular party (which most UK politicians are), I can accept the description of him as a "politician". But, surely it should be George Ferguson (politician) or George Ferguson (British politician) (except that there seem to be no other notable politicians of that name elsewhere), rather than the current version with UK and a capital P? Views?? Ghmyrtle ( talk) 14:52, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
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Whilst practicing my techinal skills I’ve spotted a couple of wp:blp issues under the sub-section Public finances which I want to address.
1. The public finances section combines
And
To support the sentence “Ferguson's management of the public purse has been controversial.”
I believe this is a form of original research known as WP:SYNTHESIS where the author has combined two or more sources to draw a new conclusion.
2. The citation needed tag has been there for over three years. WP:CITATION NEEDED says;
"Do not tag controversial material about living people that is unsourced or poorly sourced. Remove it immediately!"
Now I’m not saying we should hastily delete it per the above, I think it would be better to find a reliable secondary source for “Questions were raised in the national press over Ferguson's role as mayor on the boards of several Local Enterprise Partnerships (LEPs). Criticism was made of the awarding of considerable sums of public money from those LEPs to companies Ferguson owned.”
But so far I can only find primary sources such as minutes from this parliamentary debate, where Labour’s Clive Lewis (politician) accused Ferguson of crony capitalism for receiving £50,000 for one of his brewing firms. However, I'm weary of using primary sources to support contentious statements about living people. As I mentioned in the template, I Googled articles specifically containing GF and LEPs and apart from the parliamentary minutes most of the results were either based on or mirrored from the WP article in question. Meaning, that whoever added the paragraph about LEPs has sparked an epistemic feedback loop reminiscent of the 2005 John Seigenthaler balls-up. If we are going to include something about the LEP we should at least put it in context i.e, “ During a debate on Local Enterprise Partnerships (LEP’s) Labour’s Clive Lewis (politician) accused Ferguson of receiving £50,000 for one of his own brewing firms while on the LEP board.”
Really though, I think we need to ask ourselves if none of the mainstream publications picked up the story then is it encyclopaedia worthy? The more I think about it the more I think WP:NOTNEWS applies?
In the meantime, I have tagged the section for possible original research in the form of both synthesis and unsourced material.
3. I've also found a hard to verify contentious statement about a living person under [ in architecture].
“In December 2014, the Architects Registration Board investigated George Ferguson for using the protected title 'Architect' without being registered on the register of architects per the Architects Act 1997. He admitted he had deliberately let his membership lapse and removed the term from his social media status.“
This is sourced to a paywalled site so it’s quite hard to verify. I’ve had a look on Google to see if there’s an alternative source that we could use but so far I can’t find one. We’re supposed to remove poorly sourced contentious material per WP:BLPRS. Is there an alternative source that we can use? If not I’m going to wait for a reasonable amount of time for other editors to chime in and then remove it. Ch1p the chop ( talk) 14:39, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
References
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What is the correct date of birth? Deb 11:48, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Weasel words removed, citations added and article expanded. Jezhotwells ( talk) 13:43, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
I've changed the priorities in the list of the TF's uses. It is primarily a performance venue (opera, theatre &c), not a retaurant and café bar. Ioan_Dyfrig ( talk) 14:13, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
Now that he's been elected Mayor of Bristol, should we perhaps change the article's title? Although previously best known as an architect, he is now far better known for his political role. Yunshui 雲 水 09:44, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
You are invited to the Bristol Wiki Meetup which will take place at The Commercial Rooms, 43-45 Corn Street, Bristol BS1 1HT on Sunday 28 July 2013 from 1.00 pm. If you have never been to one, this is an opportunity to meet other Wikipedians in an informal atmosphere for Wiki and non-Wiki related chat and for beer or food if you like. Experienced and new contributors are all welcome. This event is definitely not restricted just to discussion of Bristol topics. Bring your laptop if you like and use the free Wifi or just bring yourself. Even better, bring a friend! Click the link for full details. Looking forward to seeing you. Philafrenzy ( talk) 11:29, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered. |
1) This section describes a current controversy regarding budget cuts proposed by Bristol City Council, which is led by George Ferguson in capacity of mayor. It is likely that an author is using this biography as a soapbox, since this section constitutes a disproportionately large proportion (~25%) of the description of the life and career of GF. WP:RECENTISM
2) This section is biased, since it does not mention the resolution of the controversy, published by Bristol City Council at http://www.bristol.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/leisure_and_culture/parks_and_open_spaces/nature_reserves_and_major_parks/Reason%20for%20updated%20proposal.pdf
This section should be removed from the biography. -- 78.147.11.45 ( talk) 23:08, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Been removed, as per request above.--
89.242.230.78 (
talk)
19:31, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
The creating editor has reverted the deletion without comment or justification.
This section "Hengrove Play Park Proposal" still needs to be removed, for the reasons given above, and this article protected.--
2.99.239.167 (
talk)
13:09, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest was declined. The changes suggested removing content that is well-cited or where sources exist. |
First of all I'd like to apologise about my late response. I didn't know that this removal request existed until today (6 January 2014) so I couldn't write a reply on the Mayor of Bristol's talk page. I'm sorry.
After reading the reasons why the section should be removed I was left bemused. The section is no longer "bias" because it stated the "resolution of the controversy, published by Bristol City Council" upon deletion.
Furthermore, I am not using the section for a "soapbox" and it does not "constitutes a disproportionately large proportion" because of the large amount of information related to the topic of interest available online and through local/ national newspapers.
George Ferguson is highly involved with the Hengrove Play Park proposal and should be credited. His comments on the situation have been mentioned throughout. Because of his high self-confessed involvement with his Council's proposal and negative criticism about Ferguson's decisions he has directly been receiving through social networking sites such as Twitter, the section should remain on the article for the time being because of its appeal to local Bristolians, the south-west region and general Wikipedian visitors.
The section is going to be re-added.
Wormwell ( talk) 17:43, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
The "Hengrove Park" addition is clearly contentious. William Avery advised/requested to discuss the "Hengrove Park" on this talk page before it is accepted. Wormwell has not discussed or justified the addition, but rather has made a statement and has then replaced the disputed paragraphs. I have subsequently removed it again pending discussion and agreement. Wormwell says "The section is going to be re-added." This statement does not suggest a spirit of collaboration. It is in the spirit of Wikipedia for editors to collaborate on articles.
Wormwell says that "the section should remain on the article for the time being". It is one of the editorial policies of Wikipedia that articles should not be edited to reflect current or contemporary issues. This is called "Recentism", and is to be avoided. Using Wikipedia to voice opinions about current issues is called "soapboxing".
Annebristolian suggested that the description of this controversy would be more appropriately located in Wikipedia within the "Hengrove Park" article. If this were to happen, it would also need to be summarised so that it does not take up a disproportionate part of the Hengrove Park article. And in the Hengrove Park article, this material would still suffer from "Recentism".
The "George Ferguson" article is a biography. Ferguson is currently a leader, and it is in the nature of leadership that there will be people who disagree with decisions. This is inevitable. Readers in Bristol and abroad will be referring to this article to find out more about Ferguson. It is not helpful for such readers to find that a large proportion of the biography is about just one of many dozens of activities, all of which someone will disagree with. If biographies of leaders often listed in great detail minor activities with which some people disagreed, then Wikipedia would not work at all for biographies.
The "Hengrove Park" section is a large proportion of the biography, yet reports just one activity. To put it into proportion, it could be replaced with the statement "Ferguson has made decisions with which some disagree."
Wormwell, what do you think of my proposal to summarise and move this section to the "Hengrove Park" article, and to replace it with the statement "Ferguson has made decisions with which some disagree"? -- 78.149.13.72 ( talk) 18:32, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Allocating so much of the biography of this living person (almost 25% of the content) to such a minor issue (just one item in the 2014-2017 budget proposal public consultation) violates the neutral point of view and undue weight policies. Therefore, this section has to be removed. As this page currently stands, it is the only issue covered during his entire term as mayor to date, which is significantly out of proportion.
Wormwell writes "None of Ferguson's other proposals have had so much disagreement and public awareness." This is not accurate - for example, the residents parking petition had over 6000 signatures and had significant media coverage on both ITV and BBC. Again, this exemplifies that undue weight has been assigned to this relatively minor issue.
Annebristolian ( talk) 01:41, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
I've deleted this section again because I agree that it gives undue weight to a minor issue and also because it clearly demonstrates bias. For example, it is clear that there was no intention to 'close' the play park (as cited in the section text). It is a matter of opinion whether a reduction in staffing would eventually lead to closure of the park. The core reference is a press release published on the website of a political party. Can Wormwell please respond to the violations mentioned in this post before adding the section yet again.
Marinaswims ( talk) 18:50, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
82.38.238.231 ( talk) 17:12, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
To present a neutral point of view, a fair and balanced review of Ferguson's time in office should be reported to date in this article (in addition to more detail about the contribution he has made to architecture and Bristol prior to taking office). E.g. Ian Onions Bristol Post article at the end of Ferguson's first year. While this has not been done, singling out one minor issue in Ferguson's biography is in violation of Wikipedia policy and must be removed.
So, to answer your question, no, the section cannot be reworded. Perhaps it should be its own article, if some contributors feel strongly that it should be documented in such great detail in Wikipedia as part of Bristol's recent history. However, it doesn't make sense to have it as more than a footnote in Ferguson's biography of 60+ years, if that. Including it here as it is today is completely out of proportion. Rather than continuing to debate this item, why don't we work together to genuinely improve this biography and leave this text out while we do so.
Annebristolian ( talk) 23:52, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Annebristolian ( talk) 22:15, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
Annebristolian states that Wormwell states that ""Annebristolian states that "82.38.238.231 agrees that the undue weight policy has been violated by the addition of this section" but this is incorrect and not true." This is incorrect and not true."" This is incorrect and not true as Wormwell's statement could truly not be incorrect as the user has quoted Annebristolian's statement; a representation that is correct and true.
Annebristolian states that "The unrelated information seems to be this statement from Wormwell." To be accused of stating unrelated information is unfounded, going against Wikipedia's most basic policies. Every contributor has the right to be involved with a discussion, expressing their opinion whether it is perceived as right or wrong or incorrect or true.
Annebristolian states Wormwell's statements are "an attempt to distract the conversation away from the core issue", appearing to manipulate Wormwell's words. Instead of being suggestive, the user seems quite provocative with their simplistic responses.
Peter James states "the source cited the proposal appears to have come from the Liberal Democrats, not from Ferguson", although there are references out there from Ferguson. Peter James also states "it appears to have been given undue weight in the article" suggesting some users would not view the section as having a due weight policy if adapated or summarised. a Annebristolian states "it would be surprising if there was any long-term significance of this issue". This suggest the user should be "surprised" as a "play date" has been arranged by the organsiers of the "Save Hengrove Park" campaign to celebrate Ferguson's amended proposal, months after the issue seemingly became insignificant. The Facebook campaign of the same name is regularly updated too.
Annebristolian states "overall, the council proposed a budget cut, people objected, RoSPA supported the change, and the council removed the budget cut in the next draft. End of story." However, the section is focused on Ferguson's relation with the park and community during his negatively-perceived budget proposal rather than the lifespan of a budget cut.
To not include controversies on Ferguson's biography would encourage incorrect interpretations of our Red Trousers' time in office.
Wormwell ( talk) 14:02, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Recent changes to this page violate the neutral point of view and undue weight policies, such as adding so much content about the recent Twitter storm. Also the cited document did not state that he was "forced" to make an apology, as PearceMT stated.
Annebristolian ( talk) 21:49, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
82.38.238.231 ( talk) 23:29, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
The inbox suggests that he has the nickname "Speeder" but it isn't explained anywhere. 83.104.249.240 ( talk) 21:31, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
I introduced a POV tag because the article appears substantially biased against Ferguson, which is particularly unacceptable in the run up to the 2016 Mayoral election.
1. There are a couple of weasel words eg "ploughed ahead".
2. The article is heavily focused on controversy with very little on changes the public might perceive as good.
3. It cites low quality sources for eg calling Ferguson "Junket George". WykiP ( talk) 00:48, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
Regarding the above:
1. There are a couple of weasel words eg "ploughed ahead".
- removed & edited this
2. The article is heavily focused on controversy with very little on changes the public might perceive as good. - The potentially controversial elements are indicated in sections described thus and focus on the issues around the perception of some of George Ferguson's decisions. I've checked and each seems to be well referenced back to reliable sources. Do you have any 'positive' additions you know of that could could add to improve your perception of unbalanced coverage?
3. It cites low quality sources for eg calling Ferguson "Junket George". - I've checked the reliability of the sources and the main one if referenced back to the Bristol Post, the city's paper of record. There were a number of other instances of people referring to him by that moniker, and less reputable sources, but In my view there is enough to justify the inclusion of the name as one in common usage. I have also searched carefully for the nickname "Red Trousers" and I have found little substantial evidence of this in common usage. Is this something anyone else has come across?
On a general matter I an concerned about your comment that it was "substantially biased against Ferguson, which is particularly unacceptable in the run up to the 2016 Mayoral election." Having read the article several times there are a large number of positive biographical statements (e.g. the Arena, charitable work, 20mph zones)as well as those that might be considered as controversial.
Having made these changes and reviewed the article I have removed the POV tag.
AWR — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.175.235.174 ( talk) 14:12, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
Regarding the above:
Regarding bus fares: First Bus is not a Council owned company and neither it, nor the Mayor have direct control over the fares or the majority of routes. In Council session the Bus companies denied that there had been any "deal" with the Council to reduce fares. Instead they said that the reduced fares had come from a consultation with passengers and partially in response to a well-supported petition by Daniel Farr http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Petition-calls-reduce-Bristol-bus-fares/story-17619677-detail/story.html. Ferguson did sign that petition, but I can't find any other reference to his role in reducing fares. If there is any supportive evidence that could be used to cite this it should certainly go in.
I would suggest that Ferguson's affair is not relevant to him specifically as mayor, but the page is a biography in which his election as mayor is only one element of his life; As such it would be relevant biographical detail e.g. /info/en/?search=Boris_Johnson or /info/en/?search=David_Mellor or /info/en/?search=Edwina_Currie. I would note that the issue of a publicly accountable figure swearing at a member of the public, or a fellow elected representative, is entirely relevant to their political record, e.g. /info/en/?search=Plebgate
AWR — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.175.235.174 ( talk) 14:52, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
Strongly disagree with the removal of the affair as it relates to the break-down of the marriage and the separation from his wife. This is relevant information in a biography. The link isn't broken, it's simply a citation to an article not hosted online. Looking at the date I assume it's before the Bristol Post had a web presence.
Regarding the swearing, again this is relevant in a public figure. I agree that it might be best put in as a separate item regarding his character. PearceMT ( talk) (UTC)
In the light of this discussion, which has helped to improve the article, I see only one POV tag (undue weight) - can this now be removed? The "Public Image" section currently says "At an unveiling of a statue in May 2013, Ferguson used an expletive when responding to repeated questions from a member of the audience. He refused to apologize, stating that the individual had disrupted several public events.[39][undue weight? – discuss]" If there is agreement that this is undue weight I suggest the whole sentence is removed. This would leave a very short one sentence section (which is unsourced) about red trousers - should this also be removed or cited and moved to another section?— Rod talk 10:11, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
There's been a number of major deletions of large sections by potential sock-puppet accounts set up for the purpose this weekend. Please, just a reminder, entries should not be amended just because you disagree with its content. If properly cited and relevant the presumption should be that it stay and discussion be held on this page over amendments. As this person is up for election at present there are likely to be a lot of attempts to change it in coming weeks, either in good faith, or vandalism. Please can we discuss major changes here first? — Preceding unsigned comment added by PearceMT ( talk • contribs) 07:27, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
There have been a large number of changes since the POV tab was added. Is there consensus on this talk page that it can now be removed, or is there need for more additions? I'll wait until noon GMT on the 13th April before removing. Maltaman67 ( talk) 08:35, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
The article was moved in this edit on 12 April - without any prior discussion - from George Ferguson (Mayor of Bristol) to George Ferguson (UK Politician). I have some mixed feelings about the move. Although he was notable as an architect and urbanist, and in his political life is not affiliated to a particular party (which most UK politicians are), I can accept the description of him as a "politician". But, surely it should be George Ferguson (politician) or George Ferguson (British politician) (except that there seem to be no other notable politicians of that name elsewhere), rather than the current version with UK and a capital P? Views?? Ghmyrtle ( talk) 14:52, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
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Whilst practicing my techinal skills I’ve spotted a couple of wp:blp issues under the sub-section Public finances which I want to address.
1. The public finances section combines
And
To support the sentence “Ferguson's management of the public purse has been controversial.”
I believe this is a form of original research known as WP:SYNTHESIS where the author has combined two or more sources to draw a new conclusion.
2. The citation needed tag has been there for over three years. WP:CITATION NEEDED says;
"Do not tag controversial material about living people that is unsourced or poorly sourced. Remove it immediately!"
Now I’m not saying we should hastily delete it per the above, I think it would be better to find a reliable secondary source for “Questions were raised in the national press over Ferguson's role as mayor on the boards of several Local Enterprise Partnerships (LEPs). Criticism was made of the awarding of considerable sums of public money from those LEPs to companies Ferguson owned.”
But so far I can only find primary sources such as minutes from this parliamentary debate, where Labour’s Clive Lewis (politician) accused Ferguson of crony capitalism for receiving £50,000 for one of his brewing firms. However, I'm weary of using primary sources to support contentious statements about living people. As I mentioned in the template, I Googled articles specifically containing GF and LEPs and apart from the parliamentary minutes most of the results were either based on or mirrored from the WP article in question. Meaning, that whoever added the paragraph about LEPs has sparked an epistemic feedback loop reminiscent of the 2005 John Seigenthaler balls-up. If we are going to include something about the LEP we should at least put it in context i.e, “ During a debate on Local Enterprise Partnerships (LEP’s) Labour’s Clive Lewis (politician) accused Ferguson of receiving £50,000 for one of his own brewing firms while on the LEP board.”
Really though, I think we need to ask ourselves if none of the mainstream publications picked up the story then is it encyclopaedia worthy? The more I think about it the more I think WP:NOTNEWS applies?
In the meantime, I have tagged the section for possible original research in the form of both synthesis and unsourced material.
3. I've also found a hard to verify contentious statement about a living person under [ in architecture].
“In December 2014, the Architects Registration Board investigated George Ferguson for using the protected title 'Architect' without being registered on the register of architects per the Architects Act 1997. He admitted he had deliberately let his membership lapse and removed the term from his social media status.“
This is sourced to a paywalled site so it’s quite hard to verify. I’ve had a look on Google to see if there’s an alternative source that we could use but so far I can’t find one. We’re supposed to remove poorly sourced contentious material per WP:BLPRS. Is there an alternative source that we can use? If not I’m going to wait for a reasonable amount of time for other editors to chime in and then remove it. Ch1p the chop ( talk) 14:39, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
References