![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I will not make additional changes to this article this evening. I do not wish to get involved into an "edit war" with Stirling Newberry. I will simply add the NPOV warning Jersyko, I would argue that just because something is sourced does not mean it should be included. The first charge "idiotic" is from a political opponent. I could just easily submit just about any comment from Ann Coulter about democrats into an article on this site and that would be equally wrong. That is her opinion. I argue "Other criticisms" do not belong in an encyclopedia. They are not fact just opinion. Stirling Newberry, a self described Democrat keeps adding them to the article. I believe this is vandalism and will warn. I am refraining from making any more changes for the time being so that I do not violate Wikipedia policy. I have already gone over the 3RR limit. Nnoppinger 03:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Everyone watch thier pov when editing this article. Some of the controversies listed, particularly "Other criticisms," does not belong in an encyclopedia and I am removing it. They are personal opinions and not facts. I am leaving the other controversies for now, but I am suggesting that at the very least the people that they are cleaned up. George Allen is a public figure and some of these maybe newsworthy and should be included if and only if the adherte to NPOV. Nnoppinger 02:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
You mentioned four specific places where the text seems POV, and a general concern (controversy section too long, and couldn't more info be added on other topics). I commented on three of these; no one else has responded directly to any of the five, I think. I suspect that there would be more, and more productive, discussion on this page if you were to start five new sections (or, at least, a new section with five bullet points), so that those who want to engage with you on one or more of the points can do so in a more specific way. And then, if/when you do an edit, you can point to the specific section where it was discussed (or you offered to discuss it), rather than pointing to a lengthy section like this one. John Broughton 18:50, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I can't believe there is no talk page for this article. For someone that people think will be the next Republican presidential candidate, there's not much here. I'll go out on a limb and make a prediction here (yes I know WP is not a crystal ball): Allen-Rice would be a winning ticket for the right, even if HRC does run. Just thought I'd go on record so when it happens, I can have bragging rights. -- LV (Dark Mark) 21:51, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
With the war on terror, Americans will want a strong leader with a military background. When it comes time to pull the lever, Hillary, her lack of international and military experience will make her too weak for voters. George Allen is in the same boat. Gilluiani's pro-choice stance is too liberal for the GOP and the nation is not ready (I am) for a female, black president, with no prior service record (maybe in peace time). That leaves a possible McCain / Kerry show down in 2008 with McCain winning easily.
-- Bedford 13:15, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
So the fact that he's divorced should be mentioned
--grazon 01:36, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
this should help: http://www.nndb.com/people/185/000032089/
--grazon 03:44, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
There is no need for a quotes section in this article. The one quote provided is neither notable nor truly NPOV. What is the point of the quote? To show he swears? To show he cares about money for Virginia? I just don't get it. Wikiquotes is to be used for random direct quotations. Might I suggest you add this there. -- LV (Dark Mark) 16:44, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/archives/000192.htm
Who cares if he did? I don't. I think the NAACP is an extremist group. He's a former governor of the capital state of the Confederacy. Why shouldn't he have a confederate flag? A noose? Funny sense of humor I think.
Give me something substantive, like he participated in a lynching and you'll have my attention. -dviljoen
You're kidding, right? You really think Allen's having such items in his living/working space is inconsequential? Were you asleep during your high school American history class, or just the part that focused on the ninety-year span from Reconstruction to the Civil Rights Movement? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.225.92.206 ( talk • contribs) 00:49, 25 May 2006
Funny sense of humor? How about if a politician had a non-working model of Auschwitz with a Crematorium that actually bellows smoke? Would that be going too far? Sheesh.
I was surprised, but I learned earlier in the week that according to a CNN-USA Today-Gallup poll, George Allen is outdoing other conservatives currently in the 2008 race for the GOP nomination. He's at 7%, while Frist is at 6% and Romney is in third. Wikipedia, please post this information! -Amit, Feb. 19, 2006
Can we get some more on his early life and what his motivations were for getting into politics? He's going to run for President, so we might as well get to know him a little better. Ryanluck 23:17, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, I'd hoped to get permission to use the yearbook photo from TNR, but I was denied permission to use it without the POV caption. Clearly, we can't use the photo with the caption and adhere to WP:NPOV. It seems they don't want us to use it without the caption, so I won't upload it under a fair use rationale out of respect for their wishes. It's a shame, it's such a nice little picture . . . - Jersyko· talk 17:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Part of my recent edit regarding Allen's display of the Confederate flag as a teenager, which Allen has acknowledged and confirmed in one respect (the yearbook lapel pin) and has stated is "entirely possible" in another (the car flag, which was confirmed via an eyewitness), keeps getting removed. The information is verifiable and sourced. I would like to know why, exactly, it keeps getting removed. - Jersyko· talk 04:36, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
- Jerysko, The reason it keeps being removed is because you keep re-posting it. This is a cheap political low-blow, the kind of smear jobs that has recently given wikipedia such a bad name. http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/04/28/D8H95FG06.html
I am just struggling to see how the fact that Allen once took a pic with a Confederate flag lapel pin, could be of any value to intellectual discussion. But I see this post and your determination to post it as the obvios political hatchett job that it is. You obviously have an axe to grind against Allen. There is plenty of negative information on Allen(actually probably more than positive) and I have not attempted to erase it.
But I find your blatant attempt to incite hatred of the Senator, by trying to play the race card to be nothing short of reprehensible.
(Also, I may have edited more than three times, but might I remind you that you did the same continually re-posting!) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.75.77.228 ( talk • contribs) .
Jersyko, While you may have a point that may be cited, it does not mean that it is worthy of being posted nor does it mean that it should be posted. I can find plenty of sources that claim that Armstrong never walked on the moon, but rather the whole thing was filmed in a television studio. Therefore, just because one Magazine (especially one that has seen its reputation destroyed as result of teh Stephen Glass scandal) reports something does not mean that it is worthy of posting.
My objection to this post is that it is intentionally trying to inject racism in to the political debate. I don't see you or anyone else trying to post the fact that Sen. Allen sponsored a bill, formally apologizing to African-Americans for the government's failure to prevent lynchings in the South. Instead, people are trying to find the one piece of evidence that will label him a racist.
I don't find this to be intellectually honest. If you want to talk about Allen and his record on race. But in the same sentence/paragraph that you talk about Confederate flags please post all of the work he has done to repair race relations in this country. That is if you truly believe in acting "in good faith". comment was added by 71.75.77.228
I give. Mr. Lane has revealed his ideology, and thus proved the point: Wikipedia is truly the place for smear politics. You all have taken wikipedia and used it to your own ends. You win, I concede, the wikipedia universe is obviously not for the likes of me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.75.77.228 ( talk • contribs) .
The article in The New Republic is a major article about Allen in a well-respected (Glass aside) publication. Much of the information in it was apparently confirmed by Allen's office. Personally, I think that more could be said - notably the stuff in his sister's memoirs about him being (essentially) a sadistic bully when they were children might be worth a mention (although I'd prefer to cite directly from the book, and not from Lizza's paraphrase of it). The claims that 71.75.77.228 has made about The New Republic and comparisons of this article to moon hoax theories are the most serious smears here. These seem to verge on defamation of Ryan Lizza. john k 18:28, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Is 129.137.84.230 a sock puppet for 71.75.77.228? Not very mature. This is clearly relevant information, from a reputable source. One plagarizer (Stephen Glass), caught and fired, does not make an entire news outfit (TNR) forever inaccurate. If 71/75.77.228/129.137.84.230 would like to make a wortwhile NPOV contribution to the entry he/she/they should create a new section on "allegations racial insensitivity" that mentions both the New Republic material, Allen's early voting history on issues such Martin Luther King day, and the more recent voting history on issues such apologizing for lynching. Just removing unpleasant but apparnetly truthful information violates the principles of Wikipedia, as well as plain honesty. Lucky Adrastus 22:07, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I removerd this as well the controversies section as this does not conform to a neutral point of view. WARNING TO THE PERSON WHO KEEPS POSTING THIS. If you are going to keep bringing up ad hominem and unverifiable attacks, I will do my best to see to it that your privelages here arte terminated. Use facts and keep this article neutral. The New Republic piece is also full of unverifiable sources. I could just as easily edit Al Gore's article by truthfully proclaiming that he receives payments from a mining company for use of porperty he owns. Or that he still owns many shares of Occidental Petroleum, but without the other side of the story, that woudl not be neutral. By cherry pciking what you chose to put in here you are violating neutrality. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nnoppinger ( talk • contribs) .
This article's name has been changed recently by Calmypal. The first time the reason was: "Consistency with other politician George Wigram Allen" (refering to a 19th century Australian politician). The second time with the reason: "I don't see a compelling reason to keep this at George Allen (politician). People looking for him there will still find him, via a disambiguaton page, which will not be unusual for anyone pare"
With hundreds of articles linked to this page, and the potential for this article to become quite active in the future, I would like comments on what the proper name should be for this article. Should it remain at George Allen (politician), where is has been for most of its history this year, or at George Felix Allen, the name preferred by Calmypal? Or something else?
Whatever the choice, it is not so great to make people go through an extra disambiguation page if he is now the primary person with this name that people will be searching for. So perhaps George Allen should be made a redirect to this article and the disambiguation page put at George Allen (disambiguation). NoSeptember talk 23:56, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
George Felix Allen is just bad. He should be at either George Allen or George Allen (politician) or George Allen (U.S. politician), depending on how prominent we find him to be. I'd say that he's prominent enough that George Allen is probably fine. john k 02:11, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was no consensus. I considered moving it to George Allen (politician), but there was a Canadian MP of that name, as well -- what about George Allen (U.S. politician)? — Nightst a llion (?) Seen this already? 14:07, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
George Felix Allen → George Allen – Rationale: Discussion at Talk:George Felix Allen suggests that the American politician is notable enough to deserve "George Allen".
Sorry, I should have posted here first. I removed this material because I thought the context of its inclusion was POV. Unlike the Confederate Flag material, which is undisputed by Allen, and supported by photographic evidence, these allegations are based only on the word of Allen's sister and, to my knowledge, disputed by Allen. I don't mean they're not true, I just think they should not be given as much weight here as undisputed facts. I think they probably belong in the Wikipedia entry, I just don't think they should be one of the first pieces of information about the subject. But I'm willing to leave this up to the judgment of more experienced editors. Lucky Adrastus 01:39, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Lucky - do you have any evidence that Allen has disputed his sister's claims? I assume he has not confirmed them, but we can't simply assume that he has disputed them simply because she said he did a lot of rotten things. I don't know, maybe he has disputed them, but you need to present some evidence of that. I don't think it should be in its own section, either. We do need to make clear that these are her allegations, but I don't think we need to go crazy about that. One thing I would like is to be able to cite this material to the book directly, rather than just to Lizza's article - all of the incidents we mention are ones mentioned by Lizza, so I assume that nobody's actually taken a look at the book itself. john k 05:06, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
To be clearer - it's overkill and bad writing to make every sentence start with an awkward locution that indicates that these are just Jennifer Allen's claims. It should be sufficient to mention this once, and to make sure that other sentences do not try to claim outright that what she is saying is true. john k 05:09, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I haven't reviewed all of Agrifolia's recent, extensive, edits, but they appear to handle this material correctly (i.e. including it, but placing it near end of article). Lucky Adrastus 08:23, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Do we have any sources that confirm that he has changed his position on the assualt weapons ban? At the bare minimum it would be nice to have a source for his current position. This issue could become part of a "conservatism test" in the primary.-- Victoria h 05:08, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I temporarilly removed this article from Category:American lawyers because it never mentions him actually practicing law. He might be licensed to practice, but there's no mention of it in the article which means that, currently, the article shouldn't be in that category. (It's not verified in the article, and he's apparently not notable for practicing law.)
Now if the article is expanded with verified information about him practicing law in his state, then go ahead and place him in the appropriate subcategory of Category:American lawyers by state. Dugwiki 22:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to make an argument that this small section should be removed. It's language is NPOV, but I don't think it is terribly relevant. It basically accounts to repeating a press release from a single group criticizing Allen. And it's really a criticism of Robertson, who, while certainly deserving criticism, in no more connected to Allen than to most other prominent Republican politicians. There also hasn't been any kind of ensuing criticism of Allen in this regard, certainly it hasn't been a big press story.
At the least, Allen's response through his press secretary should be included. If there isn't any disagreement, I'll remove the section in a few days. Lucky Adrastus 21:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Re: the intro: honestly, to include the controversy up there at this point -- when it hasn't even managed to make headlines for a full news cycle -- seems obviously biased. Can we at least wait until some other reliable sources -- say, the Richmond Times-Dispatch, The Virginian-Pilot, the Roanoke Times, The Hotline, take your pick -- run stories on this and develop it further before we push it into the lede? -- GGreeneVa 01:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Is there documentation (in, say, a dictionary of American slang) for the three-syllable pronunciation of macaque? (It's two syllables in both French & standard English.) The alternate pronunciation seems like a likely Anglicization to me, but I haven't been able to verify it readily. Billbrock 01:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Other articles on the incident that've come out in the last day or so:
Looks like the story's starting to break pretty wide. There was already an op-ed against it in the Post, in addition to the factual article mentioned earlier. - Hit bull, win steak (Moo!) 14:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Query: does that quote from Allen deserve credit as an apology? What the Post said aside, the words themselves seem to say "I'm sorry you took exception," not "I'm sorry I said that." The latter assumes responsibility; the former, not so much. -- GGreeneVa 20:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I would like to recomment that we remove the following paragraphs as they are complete speculation on both sides.
The word macaque refers to a type of monkey, and has occasionally been used as a racial slur against dark-skinned Africans. The word could also have been "macaca" or "mukakkah," a French and Belgian slur for dark skinned peoples of North African descent.[14] Allen's mother immigrated from French Tunisia and is of French descent.[15] Allen speaks French and obtained excellent grades in French as an undergraduate.[16] Allen's campaign maintains that the word was used in reference to Sidarth's apparent mohawk.[12] However, Sidarth's haircut is not a mohawk but a mullet.
An Allen press aide initally dismissed the racial incident with an expletive. Allen has since claimed that he had heard his staff use the term "macaca" in reference to Sidarth, that he did not know what the word meant, and that he did not intend to insult Sidarth's ethnicity when he singled him out to the crowd. "I do apologize if he's offended by that," Allen said, adding that "I would never want to demean him as an individual."[12] On August 15th, Allen's communication director told the New York Times that members of Allen's campaign "good-naturedly" nicknamed Sidarth "Mohawk" when speaking among themselves, but could not explain how the word morphed into "macaca."[17]
On August 16th, the National Journal reported that two Virginia Republicans who heard the word used by Allen's campaign staff said "macaca" was a neologism created from "Mohawk" and "caca," Spanish slang for excrement. "Said one Republican close to the campaign: 'In other words, [Sidarth] was a shit-head, an annoyance.'"[18]
This incident should be reported with possibly some comments form both sides, however these areguments are opnion and do not belong in an encyclopedia. We are speculating on intent. I will wait fo additional comments from wiki's. Nnoppinger 00:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm cautious about citing the Nationmaster.com article as a source for Macaca as a racial slur, in part because the page itself states: This article or section contains information that has not been verified and thus might not be reliable. If you are familiar with the subject matter, please check for inaccuracies and modify as needed, citing sources. I don't think there is any doubt about Makaka being a racial slur and I have provided some cites on Macaca (slur) that support it being a racial epithet, but no-one has come up with anything scholarly or verifiable as yet. Richardjames444 15:45, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I think it might be a better idea to make this section significantly smaller and link to the new S.R. Sidarth article (that I basically wrote form this section) since this controversy may be swept under the rug within a week. This Senator has been around for awhile and to have such a large section on a brand-new news item seems silly. I think it belongs in its own entry that this page can link to. Claymoney 16:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
If Allen´s mother was italian, French and a "little Spanish" (i love the little) it means Allens knows perfectly that in those cultures macaca or more correctly "macaco" is an insult directed at people with dark skin, like calling somebody "monkey". I find also interesting that Allen´s mother Tunisian origin makes her what some French (the racist kind) call a "pied noir", a French person from the colonies who might have picked up there some local blood. It´s ironic to find Allen on the other side of racism. —The preceding [J.M. Rodríguez]] .
I have removed this in its entirety as these are personal opnions and have no place in an encyclopedia. Many people may find Al Gore to be a an idiot, but that not would have any place in his article. Nnoppinger 02:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Violations of NPOV Including an as yet,unsubstantiated charge without bothering to look into the otehr side. Including weasel words like "long asscociation with the Confederate flag," which insinuates guilt. Not to mention the fact of giving it three paragraphs and the appearance that it is a major issue, when it is not. I could equally smear, Bill Clinton, Al Gore, John Kerry and many others on the left with similar stories, yet that would not be appropriate in an encyclopedia, unless they become a major issue. Giving undue weight to the macaque issue, and adding what the author believes what is meant. The last section is just listing the opinion of people who are political enemies of George Allen. Again I could do the same to people on the left. Ann Coulter makes money by doing this very thing, yet her opinions are just that and have no place in an encyclopedia other than mentioning them for news. The only line that belongs is point made about the morning after pill and that should be elaborated on and expanded. Giving both Allens' views, as well as, the views of his opponents. Not to mention the fact that several of the people who keep editing this, "Sterling Newberry" and "webbfor senate," identify themselves as democrat operatives. Nnoppinger 12:42, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
With respect to the controversies section, I've looked through it, here's my opinion of what's worth keeping. Done in no particular order, here we go:
So the bottom line is that I would get rid of the Barr Labs thing and the Other Criticisms section, keep the Macaca and the Confederate flag sections, and condense/rearrange the sister section. modargo 14:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
These changes have been implemented, the NPOV tag has been removed, and a section on the Barr Labs controversy has been added to the Virginia U.S. Senate election, 2006 article, with a summary of Allen's response to it. modargo 16:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with modargo, except for Barr Labs. I think this will become a controversial news item, because it shows some hypocrisy. It should be balanced with factual statements from both sides. I am not in a position to do so now, but I will do some work and cite the sources. I still think the confederate flag thing is being given a little too much coverage. It also needs to be balanced. There are some left wing assumptions about the flag and its connotations being made in this article. I would also like to see Allen's response to his sister. I am not familiar with her book and I am wondering if this over playing childhood pranks or actual sadism. I also question since it would apparently seem this behavior to carry over into adulthood, as there are no recent allegations. Nnoppinger 19:58, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I would like to give you a little example of biased writing in the article. "...Long association with the Confederate Flag," implying the Confederate flag in a negative tone. An encyclopedia should avoid words and phrases that show bias. A word like "ilk" come to mind. This article is the not the proper place for a discussion over the merits of the flag. I think that the issue is also discussed in detail under the governor section. I could easily enter a section for Bill Clinton, that would have headline "Accused Rapist" and mention the J. Broderick story. However, by doing so would show an unscholarly bias. It would sensationalize and that is not what an encyclopedia should be doing. I would like to make changes to this and add under the Governor section a passage about Confederate History and Heritage Month, particularly that Virigina receives millions of dollars of tourism money for its Civil War sites. I will refrain from doing so pending additional comments from other wiki's. Nnoppinger 00:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Looked at the Clinton "Broaderick" paragraph, which I thought was well written. It mentioned the scandal and presented the facts in a matter that would appear to be unbiased. It may be that I am overly sensitive. Nnoppinger 01:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
The caption next to the picture of Allen pointing at the videographer is in error. It says 'Allen points to Webb volunteer, Sidarth, referring to him as a "Macaca".' -- This is not true. Allen didn't call Sidarth a macaca, he called him Macaca, as if that were his name. Big, big difference.
Since so many are editing this article lately, it's hard to add a good edit summary without getting an edit conflict. The reasons for my revert are: 1. POV wording (using the word "taunt"/"taunting" (again)) 2. No need for the whole quote. As long as the context is given, the whole quote is not needed. It's an article about a U.S. Senator first and foremost; let's not let this section overwhelm the article, when it will certainly be trimmed down later, as this incident dies down. Thanks. Ufwuct 00:22, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Note: Jersyko removed this section, which I added to the article, seven minutes after it was added, with the edit summary "There's no evidence that Allen did anything illegal, and he has not been named in any shareholder suits" - let's wait and see if he is. until then, this is pure speculation."
If the objection is to putting this in the controversies section, then it should go elsewhere, NOT be removed entirely. It DOES provide new and newsworthy information about Allen, and it belongs in the article. I am posting it here for others to examine, comment on, and/or put back into the article, since presumably few people read it during the seven minutes it was in the article. John Broughton 18:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
You've provided only one source for all of this text.
Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Plus it's not a mainstream source by any stretch, maybe
not even a reliable source. Also, as
User:Jersyko
said, it's speculation. When mainstream sources pick up the story, or if he's convicted or charged with anything, add more. For now, I don't think it warrants more than 1-2 sentences (something like "he was involved with Xy.. company which went bankrupt in 2005 and ... Allen's served on the board from 1998 to 2000."). Otherwise, it's just speculation and guilt by association. Thanks.
Ufwuct
19:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I think this is much better, John. It removes speculation in favor of merely reporting the facts. The only question, I suppose, could be undue weight, but I think it's safely on the right side of the line. · j e r s y k o talk · 19:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
First: Does Sidarth have a mullet? I haven't seen evidence that he does. He might, but we need to verify this. In the pictures I've seen, the back of his head is not visible. Second: Pointing out that mullets are "common in the South" borders on original research, not least because it may be an erroneous assumption. They're prevalent in many rural areas, as a drive through the backwaters of many northern states will reveal. It's also irrelevant to the article. I see it's been put back again, so I'd be interested to see some evidence of this elusive mullet. Thanks.-- Birdmessenger 23:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Removed the last sentence" ...Gilmore repudiated..." as it is factually incorrect. As reported in the January 31, 2004, Washingtom Times, "Confederate History Month Rises Again" Christina Bellantoni —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nnoppinger ( talk • contribs) .
Put it back. Cited source. [3] TNR is reliable. Please provide factual evidence to contradict. modargo 00:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I cited the article in the proceeding statement. I will also add the Richmond Times Dispatch, 3/15/2002 Michael Hardy column, "Warner Nixes Confederate History Month." The New Republic article is an op-ed piece from an op-ed publication that has history of sketchy fact checking. I will again remove the sentence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nnoppinger ( talk • contribs) .
Claiming that there are articles that refute a statement does not in and of itself refute a statement. Provide links to or pictures of the articles. Right now, all you have is hearsay. That is not sufficient. modargo 00:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
As you wish.
removed copyright violation
Would you like the other article? Nnoppinger 00:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
But again that is fat cry from "repudiation." For three of those years under Gilmore the proclamation stayed exactly the same as it was under Allen> Nnoppinger 01:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the change. I think it takes out the POV. Nnoppinger 01:29, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I've edited out the "citation needed" flags that were ALL OVER the governor section, some of which were just assinine (Northern Virginia, boomed during this time period, particularly in the technology area-not the sort of thing that needs a source). It looked terrible, and seemed like some partisan just wanted to question everything on the page. If someone wants to add some back, pls do but dont citation needed every line in a paragraph. JamesBenjamin 00:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
The S.R. Sidarth article is essentially a copy of the Macaca incident section of this page. Sidarth is essetially NN outside of this context, so I think it would be appropriate to merge any extra pertinent info from the Sidarth article (I'm not sure there is any) and then replace the page with a redirect to George Felix Allen#macaca controversy. Any takers? Richardjames444 18:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
So case closed, then. The only information in the Sidarth biography not reproduced on Allen's page is that he is 20 years old, that he currently attends the University of Virginia, that he will begin his senior year there in September 2006, and that he was a 2003 graduate of the Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology in Alexandria, VA. All of that came from a Washington Post article. [1] I think most of this is irrelevant except for his age, which I added to the Allen article after making the merge. Sandover 19:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 23:03, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I redirected the article to George Felix Allen#Macaca controversy for now. Depending on the result of some other conversations, I might change it to the Virginia U.S. Senator election, 2006#The monkey/macaca controversy at some point, which would be substantively the same. Richardjames444 01:27, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 02:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
We need page citations for this section:
Allen's younger sister Jennifer Allen alleges in her memoir Fifth Quarter: The Scrimmage of a Football Coach's Daughter ( Random House Publishing, 2000) that Allen sadistically attacked his younger siblings during his childhood. [3] She claims that Allen held her by her feet over Niagara Falls; struck her boyfriend in the head with a pool cue; threw his brother Bruce through a glass sliding door; tackled his brother Gregory, breaking his collarbone; and dragged Jennifer upstairs by her hair. In the book, she wrote, "George hoped someday to become a dentist . . . George said he saw dentistry as a perfect profession--getting paid to make people suffer."
C56C 00:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Found the citations/quotes [4]:
Explaining why she is scared of heights, Ms. Allen writes that “Ever since my brother George held me over the railing at Niagara Falls, I’ve had a fear of heights.” [Fifth Quarter: The Scrimmage of a Football Coach's Daughter, page 43]
Referring to George’s relationship with one of her boyfriends: “My brother George welcomed him by slamming a pool cue against his head.” [Fifth Quarter: The Scrimmage of a Football Coach's Daughter, page 178]
Referring to George’s early leadership skills, Jennifer wrote: “We all obeyed George. If we didn't, we knew he would kill us. Once, when Bruce refused to go to bed, George hurled him through a sliding glass door. Another time, when Gregory refused to go to bed, George tackled him and broke his collarbone. Another time, when I refused to go to bed, George dragged me up the stairs by my hair.” [Fifth Quarter: The Scrimmage of a Football Coach's Daughter, page 22]
Referring to George’s early career aspirations, Jennifer wrote “George hoped someday to become a dentist. George said he saw dentistry as a perfect profession - getting paid to make people suffer.” [Fifth Quarter: The Scrimmage of a Football Coach's Daughter, page 22]
Referring to George’s habit of terrorizing a Green Bay Packer fan in their neighborhood, Jennifer wrote that the fan’s mailbox often “lay smashed in the street, a casualty of my brothers' drive-by to school in the morning. George would swerve his Mach II Mustang while Gregory held a baseball bat out the window to clear the mailbox off its post. . . . Lately, the Packers fan had resorted to stapling a Kleenex box to the mailbox post to receive his mail. George's red Mustang screeched up beside us, the Packers fan's Kleenex mailbox speared on the antenna.” [Fifth Quarter: The Scrimmage of a Football Coach's Daughter, page 16]
Noticed this morning that the bulk of this section had been shunted over to the Virginia United States Senate election, 2006 article. That section was outdated -- it looked like a copy and paste of an old version of this article -- so I got what was edited out here and pasted it over there. I also rv'ed this article, however, until folks could powwow here about whether cutting this material out of the George Allen article makes sense.
Any thoughts? -- GGreeneVa 14:51, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
This article is not NPOV at all. Indeed, I think it approaches a smear job on Allen, because presents the facts of all the George Allen controversies in the most negative light possible. Oh, there are gratuitous swipes at Allen as well ("In 1994, George Allen endorsed a convicted felon, Oliver North, for the U.S. Senate), but what I am most concerned about is the fact that all of these mini-controversies are presented without any attempt to present Allen's side of the story. Allon FambrizziAllon Fambrizzi
Does it qualify as a liberal advocacy group? If so does that make opposing racism a strictly liberal value? I dont think so. Thats why I question the edit. Maybe I missed your point. Jasper23 05:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
In the course of my edit this morning I removed information cited to the Almanac of American Policits, 1994, from the article. The information read
This occurred because the Justice Department required Virginia to draw a majority-black district in order to comply with the Voting Rights Act and Virginia's Democratic legislature wished to eliminate a Republican seat. See Barone and Ujifusa, Almanac of American Politics 1994
I removed it because the explanations given appeared to be somewhat conflicting and, since I don't have the source, I was not able to confirm exactly what it said. Allon Fambrizzi added it back in, in a slightly different form,
Virginia's Democratic legislature wished to eliminate a Republican seat. See Barone and Ujifusa, Almanac of American Politics 1994.
What, exactly, does the source say? Does it say the redistricting was done because of Voting Rights Act concerns, gerrymandering, or some odd combination of both? · j e r s y k o talk · 20:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Anyone have a comment on this? An anon is wanting to create the new subsection for the "noose" issue under the "controversies" subsection; my response is "yes, it's a controversal thing to do, but the media coverage of it has not been the same as with the other controversies, so don't think it needs a section of its own." Policy-wise, I think undue weight might be relevant. · j e r s y k o talk · 22:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I've reported User:132.241.246.111 for violations of the 3rr. No fan of George Felix Allen, but also no fan of disruptive and POV behavior. If you want to rant, take it to the appropriate newsgroup/forum/blog. Stirling Newberry 23:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to jump in out of turn, but I reverted that section a couple of days back to fix two problems:
“ | Many Southern politicians become experts at striking a delicate balance between celebrating their region and its heritage without endorsing the uglier aspects of its racial history.
But, as with his remarks last week in praise of Strom Thurmond's Dixiecrat campaign for the presidency in 1948, Senator Trent Lott, the incoming majority leader, has walked closer to the most incendiary reaches of Southern history and politics than almost any other major contemporary Southern politician. Mr. Lott once told the Convention of the Sons of Confederate Veterans that "the spirit of Jefferson Davis lives in the 1984 Republican platform" and then expounded on those remarks in Southern Partisan, a magazine that celebrates the Confederacy and Southern values and traditions. Mr. Lott, while in Congress, had a column that ran periodically in the magazine of the far-right Council of Conservative Citizens, an outgrowth of the segregationist White Citizens Council, and he has spoken at the group's meetings and met with its leaders in Washington. |
” |
Glad to respond to any feedback. -- GGreeneVa 15:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
As I said before, this article still appears to have disagreement over its POV nature (or lack thereof). One of the edits I had hoped would be relatively non-controversial apparently was controversial and was was reverted. I cannot understand why a quote from his mother helps the reader understand George Allen better. If the consensus is that this should stay (and if it turns out that we have to vote on every edit) and that this information is essential to the article, then it would seem that this would further delay removing the POV/neutrality tag. Ufwuct 02:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Also, noosphere, if you have comments regarding my proposed changes to the article (or have any other suggestions regarding the POV topic), I would appreciate your input on the talk pages, rather than not participating in the discussion and then reverting my edits. I think this would be preferable for all involved. Thank you. Ufwuct 02:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the context is what is lacking from the quote. Does Allen's mother still feel this way? Is Allen also un-American? Or are his opinions different? The way that the section reads now, seems to imply that he is un-American by association with his mother or by his upbringing. Is this true? I think a little context might be helpful to avoid giving a potentially incorrect impression. Ufwuct 02:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm ok with the wording proposed above by Ufwuct. Aside from any NPOV concerns, the current blurb about his mother seems out of context without some attempt to tie it to Allen himself. Yes, biographies often discuss the subject's parents. But they almost never discuss them in such a cursory fashion. I'm not saying we need a chapter on his mother here, but we need something more than what we have simply from a stylistic standpoint. · j e r s y k o talk · 03:00, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Also, the link to the source provided does not show the quote in the article. For any that are interested, do a Google search for:
The link with the same url should appear high on the list (2nd as of 9-6-2006) with the same url as the one listed. I would add the url from the google cache, but I'm not sure if this would be a copyright violation. Ufwuct 03:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Guys/gals: Thanks for the input. It looks like this guy is one controversial character, so these changes are likely to be contentious. I'll try to make the changes one at a time and look forward to working with you guys/gals soon. Ufwuct 03:12, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
The section is presently the largest in the article. That is undue weight, not to mention duplicating info from the election article. That's why I moved it. We attempted to debate this, but nobody spoke up for several weeks, so I moved it again. Perhaps someone can justify why an election event that will likely just be trimmed significantly after the election belongs here and not the election's article?-- Rosicrucian 20:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
The Macaca controversy got much more media attention than pretty much anything else in the entire article. So I don't think it's undue weight to emphasize it. In fact, de-emphasizing it would put undue weight on the rest. -- noosph e re 22:53, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
So far I count myself and three others supporting, and one vehemently in dissent. Is there a compromise that can be reached? I am more than willing to expand the truncated section in my revision with more detail to provide better context, but I really don't think the whole section needs to be in there verbatim. Your thoughts?-- Rosicrucian 23:17, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
There continues to be news that relates to the Macaca controversy and there will likely be more as the election approaches. For instance, Allen holds 'ethnic rally': He combats recent stumble by reaching out to diverse group, US senator who called Indian man 'Macaca' decides to turn down community leadership award. With the news continuing to develop, one of the following will happen:
Let's put most this material where it belongs, in its own article where it will get a more thorough treatment.
Other news about the campaign includes: Campaign worker for George Allen avoids trespassing charges, which would also belong in the election article, not this one. I await any comments. Thanks. Ufwuct 20:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The anon who keeps posting that Allen is Jewish in the article posted this message on my talk page:
Jersyko removed a link as supporting evidence due to the link allegedly quoting Wikipedia as a source. This is a disingeuous interpretation of the article at that link: http://www.forward.com/articles/alleged-slur-casts-spotlight-on-senator%E2%80%99s-jewis/
The article does not state or imply that Wikipedia is a source for its information.
The passage in the article which mentions Wikipedia is the following: "Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia that allows users to draft and edit the entries, takes Allen’s mother’s Judaism as a given, saying that “Henrietta Lumbroso was a Jewish immigrant of Tunisian/Italian/French background.”"
It is clear from the wording of the above passage that the author intended only to illustrate the phenomenon of Wikipedia users assuming George Allen's Jewish heritage. The Author does not express or imply that her intent is to quote Wikipedia as a source for her information. "The Foward," the newspaper in which the article appears, is a respected publication that has the same standards as similar widely-distributed news sources.
Jersyko's decision to remove the link and the update to the George Allen page was a clear case of wanton and irresponsible editing. Jersyko either did not read the article thoroughly, coming to the false conclusion that it intended its reference to Wikipedia to be considered a source, or he is abusing his privelege to edit and remove other users' posts.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 169.253.4.21 ( talk • contribs) . 20:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Putting aside the message's incivility, it's just wrong. The source says "it is likely that she’s Jewish by birth, although no acknowledgment of that heritage appears in the memoir." The source then goes on to present evidence that lends credibility to the claim that his mother could be Jewish, but does not definitively prove that she is. And the article does cite Wikipedia as a source, meaning it has problems as a reliable source (I'm not casting doubt on the entire news source's reliability, but only this article's). Nowhere does the article say "Allen is Jewish" or "Allen's mother is Jewish," which is what the anon is saying in his/her edits to this article. · j e r s y k o talk · 20:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Regarding edits made by Ma ca ca, Ma ca, Macacaca, and Macaca, I think there is no need to mention his Jewish heritage in the very first sentence of the article. These sources suggest that he is a practicing Presbyterian, [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] which is a denomination of Christianity. So regardless of his background, saying he is Jewish in the first sentence is extremely misleading, if not plain wrong. Plus the source is way too POV for the first sentence. If it is needed to substantiate a claim elsewhere in the article, that's fine, but just not in the introduction. Regarding the adjective "controversial", I don't see how this source provides some vital information necessary to prove that he is in fact controversial. It's not as if pollsters asked people "Do you think George Allen is a controversial figure?". Plus, there is plenty of other information presented in the article to demonstrate this aspect of George Allen — that he is controversial (that is by showing in which controversies he has been involved) — almost all of which is presented without awkwardly shoehorning a source into the first sentence. If you would like to add it, I suggest that you should find a way to add it in the section which mentions a drop in his poll numbers due to the Macaca controversy. Ufwuct 19:43, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
All we really need here are Wiki's basic policies. Per the manual of style, ethnicity/religion isn't mentioned in the header anyway, so even if he was 100% Jewish the article shouldn't start with "George Allen is a Jewish etc." Ethnicity/religion goes under "Early life", I guess, which currently has bits and pieces on his ancestry. The Forward does pass WP:RS, and no, it doesn't use Wikipedia as a source, but just mentions that Wikipedia seems to have assumed his mother is Jewish and stated it as fact (which we shouldn't have done). So, we could mention "it has been speculated by source X that Allen's mother is of Jewish ancestry", using the Forward as a source. Mad Jack 20:02, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
The article on George Allen is the most biased and slanted Wikipedia article I've ever seen.
It should be deleted for the credibility of Wikipedia itself. 20:25, 9 September 2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.44.145.224 ( talk • contribs)
I have removed the assertion that both sides have claimed that the photo of Sidarth supports their position. I requested a source (that both "sides" made this assertion) on August 17. I did a quick google search before added the request for a source and couldn't find anything about Webb's campaign or Sidarth claiming that that photo supported their case (although Sidarth had claimed before that he had a mullet). Since no one else has been able to come up with a source in that time, I changed the wording, removing the assertion that Sidarth's "side" had claimed that the photo backed up his previous assertion.
Also, I changed the wording to reflect that this photo of him shows something quite the opposite of what most people would consider a mullet. A mullet (see pictures) is usually short in the front (and sometimes shorter on the sides), combined with longer hair at the bottom and the usually at the sides. A mohawk, on other hand, is shaved on the sides (which Sidarth's hairstyle shows) and longer in the middle of the head, usually from the forehead all the way to the neck (which Sidarth's hairstyle shows). Usually, the hair in the middle of the head sticks up in a Mohawk. Sidarth's does not. This is why I chose not to call it a mohawk, but describe it as not typical of a mullet.
I hope that my changes are not reverted, despite waiting 3 1/2 weeks for a source (and being open to discussion the whole time), and explaining my reasons for changes here. Please let me know if you have comments ( here). Thanks. Ufwuct 16:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't see how the comment violates WP:OWN. It seems appropriate to warn editors that the passage is not intended to be a full account of the event, and that updates are better served being placed on a different article.-- Rosicrucian 15:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia editors are only required to follow Wikipedia policies, not injunctions from other Wikipedia users. That's why the presence of such injunctions were a violation of WP:OWN. The new wording just seems reduntant, as there's a link to the Virginia United States Senate election, 2006 article in the body of the George Allen article anyway. But, as you say, it doesn't violate WP:OWN, and I have no problem with it. -- noosph e re 21:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I will not make additional changes to this article this evening. I do not wish to get involved into an "edit war" with Stirling Newberry. I will simply add the NPOV warning Jersyko, I would argue that just because something is sourced does not mean it should be included. The first charge "idiotic" is from a political opponent. I could just easily submit just about any comment from Ann Coulter about democrats into an article on this site and that would be equally wrong. That is her opinion. I argue "Other criticisms" do not belong in an encyclopedia. They are not fact just opinion. Stirling Newberry, a self described Democrat keeps adding them to the article. I believe this is vandalism and will warn. I am refraining from making any more changes for the time being so that I do not violate Wikipedia policy. I have already gone over the 3RR limit. Nnoppinger 03:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Everyone watch thier pov when editing this article. Some of the controversies listed, particularly "Other criticisms," does not belong in an encyclopedia and I am removing it. They are personal opinions and not facts. I am leaving the other controversies for now, but I am suggesting that at the very least the people that they are cleaned up. George Allen is a public figure and some of these maybe newsworthy and should be included if and only if the adherte to NPOV. Nnoppinger 02:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
You mentioned four specific places where the text seems POV, and a general concern (controversy section too long, and couldn't more info be added on other topics). I commented on three of these; no one else has responded directly to any of the five, I think. I suspect that there would be more, and more productive, discussion on this page if you were to start five new sections (or, at least, a new section with five bullet points), so that those who want to engage with you on one or more of the points can do so in a more specific way. And then, if/when you do an edit, you can point to the specific section where it was discussed (or you offered to discuss it), rather than pointing to a lengthy section like this one. John Broughton 18:50, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I can't believe there is no talk page for this article. For someone that people think will be the next Republican presidential candidate, there's not much here. I'll go out on a limb and make a prediction here (yes I know WP is not a crystal ball): Allen-Rice would be a winning ticket for the right, even if HRC does run. Just thought I'd go on record so when it happens, I can have bragging rights. -- LV (Dark Mark) 21:51, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
With the war on terror, Americans will want a strong leader with a military background. When it comes time to pull the lever, Hillary, her lack of international and military experience will make her too weak for voters. George Allen is in the same boat. Gilluiani's pro-choice stance is too liberal for the GOP and the nation is not ready (I am) for a female, black president, with no prior service record (maybe in peace time). That leaves a possible McCain / Kerry show down in 2008 with McCain winning easily.
-- Bedford 13:15, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
So the fact that he's divorced should be mentioned
--grazon 01:36, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
this should help: http://www.nndb.com/people/185/000032089/
--grazon 03:44, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
There is no need for a quotes section in this article. The one quote provided is neither notable nor truly NPOV. What is the point of the quote? To show he swears? To show he cares about money for Virginia? I just don't get it. Wikiquotes is to be used for random direct quotations. Might I suggest you add this there. -- LV (Dark Mark) 16:44, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/archives/000192.htm
Who cares if he did? I don't. I think the NAACP is an extremist group. He's a former governor of the capital state of the Confederacy. Why shouldn't he have a confederate flag? A noose? Funny sense of humor I think.
Give me something substantive, like he participated in a lynching and you'll have my attention. -dviljoen
You're kidding, right? You really think Allen's having such items in his living/working space is inconsequential? Were you asleep during your high school American history class, or just the part that focused on the ninety-year span from Reconstruction to the Civil Rights Movement? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.225.92.206 ( talk • contribs) 00:49, 25 May 2006
Funny sense of humor? How about if a politician had a non-working model of Auschwitz with a Crematorium that actually bellows smoke? Would that be going too far? Sheesh.
I was surprised, but I learned earlier in the week that according to a CNN-USA Today-Gallup poll, George Allen is outdoing other conservatives currently in the 2008 race for the GOP nomination. He's at 7%, while Frist is at 6% and Romney is in third. Wikipedia, please post this information! -Amit, Feb. 19, 2006
Can we get some more on his early life and what his motivations were for getting into politics? He's going to run for President, so we might as well get to know him a little better. Ryanluck 23:17, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, I'd hoped to get permission to use the yearbook photo from TNR, but I was denied permission to use it without the POV caption. Clearly, we can't use the photo with the caption and adhere to WP:NPOV. It seems they don't want us to use it without the caption, so I won't upload it under a fair use rationale out of respect for their wishes. It's a shame, it's such a nice little picture . . . - Jersyko· talk 17:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Part of my recent edit regarding Allen's display of the Confederate flag as a teenager, which Allen has acknowledged and confirmed in one respect (the yearbook lapel pin) and has stated is "entirely possible" in another (the car flag, which was confirmed via an eyewitness), keeps getting removed. The information is verifiable and sourced. I would like to know why, exactly, it keeps getting removed. - Jersyko· talk 04:36, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
- Jerysko, The reason it keeps being removed is because you keep re-posting it. This is a cheap political low-blow, the kind of smear jobs that has recently given wikipedia such a bad name. http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/04/28/D8H95FG06.html
I am just struggling to see how the fact that Allen once took a pic with a Confederate flag lapel pin, could be of any value to intellectual discussion. But I see this post and your determination to post it as the obvios political hatchett job that it is. You obviously have an axe to grind against Allen. There is plenty of negative information on Allen(actually probably more than positive) and I have not attempted to erase it.
But I find your blatant attempt to incite hatred of the Senator, by trying to play the race card to be nothing short of reprehensible.
(Also, I may have edited more than three times, but might I remind you that you did the same continually re-posting!) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.75.77.228 ( talk • contribs) .
Jersyko, While you may have a point that may be cited, it does not mean that it is worthy of being posted nor does it mean that it should be posted. I can find plenty of sources that claim that Armstrong never walked on the moon, but rather the whole thing was filmed in a television studio. Therefore, just because one Magazine (especially one that has seen its reputation destroyed as result of teh Stephen Glass scandal) reports something does not mean that it is worthy of posting.
My objection to this post is that it is intentionally trying to inject racism in to the political debate. I don't see you or anyone else trying to post the fact that Sen. Allen sponsored a bill, formally apologizing to African-Americans for the government's failure to prevent lynchings in the South. Instead, people are trying to find the one piece of evidence that will label him a racist.
I don't find this to be intellectually honest. If you want to talk about Allen and his record on race. But in the same sentence/paragraph that you talk about Confederate flags please post all of the work he has done to repair race relations in this country. That is if you truly believe in acting "in good faith". comment was added by 71.75.77.228
I give. Mr. Lane has revealed his ideology, and thus proved the point: Wikipedia is truly the place for smear politics. You all have taken wikipedia and used it to your own ends. You win, I concede, the wikipedia universe is obviously not for the likes of me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.75.77.228 ( talk • contribs) .
The article in The New Republic is a major article about Allen in a well-respected (Glass aside) publication. Much of the information in it was apparently confirmed by Allen's office. Personally, I think that more could be said - notably the stuff in his sister's memoirs about him being (essentially) a sadistic bully when they were children might be worth a mention (although I'd prefer to cite directly from the book, and not from Lizza's paraphrase of it). The claims that 71.75.77.228 has made about The New Republic and comparisons of this article to moon hoax theories are the most serious smears here. These seem to verge on defamation of Ryan Lizza. john k 18:28, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Is 129.137.84.230 a sock puppet for 71.75.77.228? Not very mature. This is clearly relevant information, from a reputable source. One plagarizer (Stephen Glass), caught and fired, does not make an entire news outfit (TNR) forever inaccurate. If 71/75.77.228/129.137.84.230 would like to make a wortwhile NPOV contribution to the entry he/she/they should create a new section on "allegations racial insensitivity" that mentions both the New Republic material, Allen's early voting history on issues such Martin Luther King day, and the more recent voting history on issues such apologizing for lynching. Just removing unpleasant but apparnetly truthful information violates the principles of Wikipedia, as well as plain honesty. Lucky Adrastus 22:07, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I removerd this as well the controversies section as this does not conform to a neutral point of view. WARNING TO THE PERSON WHO KEEPS POSTING THIS. If you are going to keep bringing up ad hominem and unverifiable attacks, I will do my best to see to it that your privelages here arte terminated. Use facts and keep this article neutral. The New Republic piece is also full of unverifiable sources. I could just as easily edit Al Gore's article by truthfully proclaiming that he receives payments from a mining company for use of porperty he owns. Or that he still owns many shares of Occidental Petroleum, but without the other side of the story, that woudl not be neutral. By cherry pciking what you chose to put in here you are violating neutrality. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nnoppinger ( talk • contribs) .
This article's name has been changed recently by Calmypal. The first time the reason was: "Consistency with other politician George Wigram Allen" (refering to a 19th century Australian politician). The second time with the reason: "I don't see a compelling reason to keep this at George Allen (politician). People looking for him there will still find him, via a disambiguaton page, which will not be unusual for anyone pare"
With hundreds of articles linked to this page, and the potential for this article to become quite active in the future, I would like comments on what the proper name should be for this article. Should it remain at George Allen (politician), where is has been for most of its history this year, or at George Felix Allen, the name preferred by Calmypal? Or something else?
Whatever the choice, it is not so great to make people go through an extra disambiguation page if he is now the primary person with this name that people will be searching for. So perhaps George Allen should be made a redirect to this article and the disambiguation page put at George Allen (disambiguation). NoSeptember talk 23:56, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
George Felix Allen is just bad. He should be at either George Allen or George Allen (politician) or George Allen (U.S. politician), depending on how prominent we find him to be. I'd say that he's prominent enough that George Allen is probably fine. john k 02:11, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was no consensus. I considered moving it to George Allen (politician), but there was a Canadian MP of that name, as well -- what about George Allen (U.S. politician)? — Nightst a llion (?) Seen this already? 14:07, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
George Felix Allen → George Allen – Rationale: Discussion at Talk:George Felix Allen suggests that the American politician is notable enough to deserve "George Allen".
Sorry, I should have posted here first. I removed this material because I thought the context of its inclusion was POV. Unlike the Confederate Flag material, which is undisputed by Allen, and supported by photographic evidence, these allegations are based only on the word of Allen's sister and, to my knowledge, disputed by Allen. I don't mean they're not true, I just think they should not be given as much weight here as undisputed facts. I think they probably belong in the Wikipedia entry, I just don't think they should be one of the first pieces of information about the subject. But I'm willing to leave this up to the judgment of more experienced editors. Lucky Adrastus 01:39, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Lucky - do you have any evidence that Allen has disputed his sister's claims? I assume he has not confirmed them, but we can't simply assume that he has disputed them simply because she said he did a lot of rotten things. I don't know, maybe he has disputed them, but you need to present some evidence of that. I don't think it should be in its own section, either. We do need to make clear that these are her allegations, but I don't think we need to go crazy about that. One thing I would like is to be able to cite this material to the book directly, rather than just to Lizza's article - all of the incidents we mention are ones mentioned by Lizza, so I assume that nobody's actually taken a look at the book itself. john k 05:06, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
To be clearer - it's overkill and bad writing to make every sentence start with an awkward locution that indicates that these are just Jennifer Allen's claims. It should be sufficient to mention this once, and to make sure that other sentences do not try to claim outright that what she is saying is true. john k 05:09, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I haven't reviewed all of Agrifolia's recent, extensive, edits, but they appear to handle this material correctly (i.e. including it, but placing it near end of article). Lucky Adrastus 08:23, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Do we have any sources that confirm that he has changed his position on the assualt weapons ban? At the bare minimum it would be nice to have a source for his current position. This issue could become part of a "conservatism test" in the primary.-- Victoria h 05:08, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I temporarilly removed this article from Category:American lawyers because it never mentions him actually practicing law. He might be licensed to practice, but there's no mention of it in the article which means that, currently, the article shouldn't be in that category. (It's not verified in the article, and he's apparently not notable for practicing law.)
Now if the article is expanded with verified information about him practicing law in his state, then go ahead and place him in the appropriate subcategory of Category:American lawyers by state. Dugwiki 22:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to make an argument that this small section should be removed. It's language is NPOV, but I don't think it is terribly relevant. It basically accounts to repeating a press release from a single group criticizing Allen. And it's really a criticism of Robertson, who, while certainly deserving criticism, in no more connected to Allen than to most other prominent Republican politicians. There also hasn't been any kind of ensuing criticism of Allen in this regard, certainly it hasn't been a big press story.
At the least, Allen's response through his press secretary should be included. If there isn't any disagreement, I'll remove the section in a few days. Lucky Adrastus 21:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Re: the intro: honestly, to include the controversy up there at this point -- when it hasn't even managed to make headlines for a full news cycle -- seems obviously biased. Can we at least wait until some other reliable sources -- say, the Richmond Times-Dispatch, The Virginian-Pilot, the Roanoke Times, The Hotline, take your pick -- run stories on this and develop it further before we push it into the lede? -- GGreeneVa 01:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Is there documentation (in, say, a dictionary of American slang) for the three-syllable pronunciation of macaque? (It's two syllables in both French & standard English.) The alternate pronunciation seems like a likely Anglicization to me, but I haven't been able to verify it readily. Billbrock 01:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Other articles on the incident that've come out in the last day or so:
Looks like the story's starting to break pretty wide. There was already an op-ed against it in the Post, in addition to the factual article mentioned earlier. - Hit bull, win steak (Moo!) 14:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Query: does that quote from Allen deserve credit as an apology? What the Post said aside, the words themselves seem to say "I'm sorry you took exception," not "I'm sorry I said that." The latter assumes responsibility; the former, not so much. -- GGreeneVa 20:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I would like to recomment that we remove the following paragraphs as they are complete speculation on both sides.
The word macaque refers to a type of monkey, and has occasionally been used as a racial slur against dark-skinned Africans. The word could also have been "macaca" or "mukakkah," a French and Belgian slur for dark skinned peoples of North African descent.[14] Allen's mother immigrated from French Tunisia and is of French descent.[15] Allen speaks French and obtained excellent grades in French as an undergraduate.[16] Allen's campaign maintains that the word was used in reference to Sidarth's apparent mohawk.[12] However, Sidarth's haircut is not a mohawk but a mullet.
An Allen press aide initally dismissed the racial incident with an expletive. Allen has since claimed that he had heard his staff use the term "macaca" in reference to Sidarth, that he did not know what the word meant, and that he did not intend to insult Sidarth's ethnicity when he singled him out to the crowd. "I do apologize if he's offended by that," Allen said, adding that "I would never want to demean him as an individual."[12] On August 15th, Allen's communication director told the New York Times that members of Allen's campaign "good-naturedly" nicknamed Sidarth "Mohawk" when speaking among themselves, but could not explain how the word morphed into "macaca."[17]
On August 16th, the National Journal reported that two Virginia Republicans who heard the word used by Allen's campaign staff said "macaca" was a neologism created from "Mohawk" and "caca," Spanish slang for excrement. "Said one Republican close to the campaign: 'In other words, [Sidarth] was a shit-head, an annoyance.'"[18]
This incident should be reported with possibly some comments form both sides, however these areguments are opnion and do not belong in an encyclopedia. We are speculating on intent. I will wait fo additional comments from wiki's. Nnoppinger 00:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm cautious about citing the Nationmaster.com article as a source for Macaca as a racial slur, in part because the page itself states: This article or section contains information that has not been verified and thus might not be reliable. If you are familiar with the subject matter, please check for inaccuracies and modify as needed, citing sources. I don't think there is any doubt about Makaka being a racial slur and I have provided some cites on Macaca (slur) that support it being a racial epithet, but no-one has come up with anything scholarly or verifiable as yet. Richardjames444 15:45, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I think it might be a better idea to make this section significantly smaller and link to the new S.R. Sidarth article (that I basically wrote form this section) since this controversy may be swept under the rug within a week. This Senator has been around for awhile and to have such a large section on a brand-new news item seems silly. I think it belongs in its own entry that this page can link to. Claymoney 16:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
If Allen´s mother was italian, French and a "little Spanish" (i love the little) it means Allens knows perfectly that in those cultures macaca or more correctly "macaco" is an insult directed at people with dark skin, like calling somebody "monkey". I find also interesting that Allen´s mother Tunisian origin makes her what some French (the racist kind) call a "pied noir", a French person from the colonies who might have picked up there some local blood. It´s ironic to find Allen on the other side of racism. —The preceding [J.M. Rodríguez]] .
I have removed this in its entirety as these are personal opnions and have no place in an encyclopedia. Many people may find Al Gore to be a an idiot, but that not would have any place in his article. Nnoppinger 02:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Violations of NPOV Including an as yet,unsubstantiated charge without bothering to look into the otehr side. Including weasel words like "long asscociation with the Confederate flag," which insinuates guilt. Not to mention the fact of giving it three paragraphs and the appearance that it is a major issue, when it is not. I could equally smear, Bill Clinton, Al Gore, John Kerry and many others on the left with similar stories, yet that would not be appropriate in an encyclopedia, unless they become a major issue. Giving undue weight to the macaque issue, and adding what the author believes what is meant. The last section is just listing the opinion of people who are political enemies of George Allen. Again I could do the same to people on the left. Ann Coulter makes money by doing this very thing, yet her opinions are just that and have no place in an encyclopedia other than mentioning them for news. The only line that belongs is point made about the morning after pill and that should be elaborated on and expanded. Giving both Allens' views, as well as, the views of his opponents. Not to mention the fact that several of the people who keep editing this, "Sterling Newberry" and "webbfor senate," identify themselves as democrat operatives. Nnoppinger 12:42, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
With respect to the controversies section, I've looked through it, here's my opinion of what's worth keeping. Done in no particular order, here we go:
So the bottom line is that I would get rid of the Barr Labs thing and the Other Criticisms section, keep the Macaca and the Confederate flag sections, and condense/rearrange the sister section. modargo 14:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
These changes have been implemented, the NPOV tag has been removed, and a section on the Barr Labs controversy has been added to the Virginia U.S. Senate election, 2006 article, with a summary of Allen's response to it. modargo 16:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with modargo, except for Barr Labs. I think this will become a controversial news item, because it shows some hypocrisy. It should be balanced with factual statements from both sides. I am not in a position to do so now, but I will do some work and cite the sources. I still think the confederate flag thing is being given a little too much coverage. It also needs to be balanced. There are some left wing assumptions about the flag and its connotations being made in this article. I would also like to see Allen's response to his sister. I am not familiar with her book and I am wondering if this over playing childhood pranks or actual sadism. I also question since it would apparently seem this behavior to carry over into adulthood, as there are no recent allegations. Nnoppinger 19:58, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I would like to give you a little example of biased writing in the article. "...Long association with the Confederate Flag," implying the Confederate flag in a negative tone. An encyclopedia should avoid words and phrases that show bias. A word like "ilk" come to mind. This article is the not the proper place for a discussion over the merits of the flag. I think that the issue is also discussed in detail under the governor section. I could easily enter a section for Bill Clinton, that would have headline "Accused Rapist" and mention the J. Broderick story. However, by doing so would show an unscholarly bias. It would sensationalize and that is not what an encyclopedia should be doing. I would like to make changes to this and add under the Governor section a passage about Confederate History and Heritage Month, particularly that Virigina receives millions of dollars of tourism money for its Civil War sites. I will refrain from doing so pending additional comments from other wiki's. Nnoppinger 00:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Looked at the Clinton "Broaderick" paragraph, which I thought was well written. It mentioned the scandal and presented the facts in a matter that would appear to be unbiased. It may be that I am overly sensitive. Nnoppinger 01:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
The caption next to the picture of Allen pointing at the videographer is in error. It says 'Allen points to Webb volunteer, Sidarth, referring to him as a "Macaca".' -- This is not true. Allen didn't call Sidarth a macaca, he called him Macaca, as if that were his name. Big, big difference.
Since so many are editing this article lately, it's hard to add a good edit summary without getting an edit conflict. The reasons for my revert are: 1. POV wording (using the word "taunt"/"taunting" (again)) 2. No need for the whole quote. As long as the context is given, the whole quote is not needed. It's an article about a U.S. Senator first and foremost; let's not let this section overwhelm the article, when it will certainly be trimmed down later, as this incident dies down. Thanks. Ufwuct 00:22, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Note: Jersyko removed this section, which I added to the article, seven minutes after it was added, with the edit summary "There's no evidence that Allen did anything illegal, and he has not been named in any shareholder suits" - let's wait and see if he is. until then, this is pure speculation."
If the objection is to putting this in the controversies section, then it should go elsewhere, NOT be removed entirely. It DOES provide new and newsworthy information about Allen, and it belongs in the article. I am posting it here for others to examine, comment on, and/or put back into the article, since presumably few people read it during the seven minutes it was in the article. John Broughton 18:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
You've provided only one source for all of this text.
Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Plus it's not a mainstream source by any stretch, maybe
not even a reliable source. Also, as
User:Jersyko
said, it's speculation. When mainstream sources pick up the story, or if he's convicted or charged with anything, add more. For now, I don't think it warrants more than 1-2 sentences (something like "he was involved with Xy.. company which went bankrupt in 2005 and ... Allen's served on the board from 1998 to 2000."). Otherwise, it's just speculation and guilt by association. Thanks.
Ufwuct
19:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I think this is much better, John. It removes speculation in favor of merely reporting the facts. The only question, I suppose, could be undue weight, but I think it's safely on the right side of the line. · j e r s y k o talk · 19:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
First: Does Sidarth have a mullet? I haven't seen evidence that he does. He might, but we need to verify this. In the pictures I've seen, the back of his head is not visible. Second: Pointing out that mullets are "common in the South" borders on original research, not least because it may be an erroneous assumption. They're prevalent in many rural areas, as a drive through the backwaters of many northern states will reveal. It's also irrelevant to the article. I see it's been put back again, so I'd be interested to see some evidence of this elusive mullet. Thanks.-- Birdmessenger 23:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Removed the last sentence" ...Gilmore repudiated..." as it is factually incorrect. As reported in the January 31, 2004, Washingtom Times, "Confederate History Month Rises Again" Christina Bellantoni —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nnoppinger ( talk • contribs) .
Put it back. Cited source. [3] TNR is reliable. Please provide factual evidence to contradict. modargo 00:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I cited the article in the proceeding statement. I will also add the Richmond Times Dispatch, 3/15/2002 Michael Hardy column, "Warner Nixes Confederate History Month." The New Republic article is an op-ed piece from an op-ed publication that has history of sketchy fact checking. I will again remove the sentence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nnoppinger ( talk • contribs) .
Claiming that there are articles that refute a statement does not in and of itself refute a statement. Provide links to or pictures of the articles. Right now, all you have is hearsay. That is not sufficient. modargo 00:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
As you wish.
removed copyright violation
Would you like the other article? Nnoppinger 00:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
But again that is fat cry from "repudiation." For three of those years under Gilmore the proclamation stayed exactly the same as it was under Allen> Nnoppinger 01:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the change. I think it takes out the POV. Nnoppinger 01:29, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I've edited out the "citation needed" flags that were ALL OVER the governor section, some of which were just assinine (Northern Virginia, boomed during this time period, particularly in the technology area-not the sort of thing that needs a source). It looked terrible, and seemed like some partisan just wanted to question everything on the page. If someone wants to add some back, pls do but dont citation needed every line in a paragraph. JamesBenjamin 00:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
The S.R. Sidarth article is essentially a copy of the Macaca incident section of this page. Sidarth is essetially NN outside of this context, so I think it would be appropriate to merge any extra pertinent info from the Sidarth article (I'm not sure there is any) and then replace the page with a redirect to George Felix Allen#macaca controversy. Any takers? Richardjames444 18:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
So case closed, then. The only information in the Sidarth biography not reproduced on Allen's page is that he is 20 years old, that he currently attends the University of Virginia, that he will begin his senior year there in September 2006, and that he was a 2003 graduate of the Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology in Alexandria, VA. All of that came from a Washington Post article. [1] I think most of this is irrelevant except for his age, which I added to the Allen article after making the merge. Sandover 19:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 23:03, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I redirected the article to George Felix Allen#Macaca controversy for now. Depending on the result of some other conversations, I might change it to the Virginia U.S. Senator election, 2006#The monkey/macaca controversy at some point, which would be substantively the same. Richardjames444 01:27, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Ruthfulbarbarity 02:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
We need page citations for this section:
Allen's younger sister Jennifer Allen alleges in her memoir Fifth Quarter: The Scrimmage of a Football Coach's Daughter ( Random House Publishing, 2000) that Allen sadistically attacked his younger siblings during his childhood. [3] She claims that Allen held her by her feet over Niagara Falls; struck her boyfriend in the head with a pool cue; threw his brother Bruce through a glass sliding door; tackled his brother Gregory, breaking his collarbone; and dragged Jennifer upstairs by her hair. In the book, she wrote, "George hoped someday to become a dentist . . . George said he saw dentistry as a perfect profession--getting paid to make people suffer."
C56C 00:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Found the citations/quotes [4]:
Explaining why she is scared of heights, Ms. Allen writes that “Ever since my brother George held me over the railing at Niagara Falls, I’ve had a fear of heights.” [Fifth Quarter: The Scrimmage of a Football Coach's Daughter, page 43]
Referring to George’s relationship with one of her boyfriends: “My brother George welcomed him by slamming a pool cue against his head.” [Fifth Quarter: The Scrimmage of a Football Coach's Daughter, page 178]
Referring to George’s early leadership skills, Jennifer wrote: “We all obeyed George. If we didn't, we knew he would kill us. Once, when Bruce refused to go to bed, George hurled him through a sliding glass door. Another time, when Gregory refused to go to bed, George tackled him and broke his collarbone. Another time, when I refused to go to bed, George dragged me up the stairs by my hair.” [Fifth Quarter: The Scrimmage of a Football Coach's Daughter, page 22]
Referring to George’s early career aspirations, Jennifer wrote “George hoped someday to become a dentist. George said he saw dentistry as a perfect profession - getting paid to make people suffer.” [Fifth Quarter: The Scrimmage of a Football Coach's Daughter, page 22]
Referring to George’s habit of terrorizing a Green Bay Packer fan in their neighborhood, Jennifer wrote that the fan’s mailbox often “lay smashed in the street, a casualty of my brothers' drive-by to school in the morning. George would swerve his Mach II Mustang while Gregory held a baseball bat out the window to clear the mailbox off its post. . . . Lately, the Packers fan had resorted to stapling a Kleenex box to the mailbox post to receive his mail. George's red Mustang screeched up beside us, the Packers fan's Kleenex mailbox speared on the antenna.” [Fifth Quarter: The Scrimmage of a Football Coach's Daughter, page 16]
Noticed this morning that the bulk of this section had been shunted over to the Virginia United States Senate election, 2006 article. That section was outdated -- it looked like a copy and paste of an old version of this article -- so I got what was edited out here and pasted it over there. I also rv'ed this article, however, until folks could powwow here about whether cutting this material out of the George Allen article makes sense.
Any thoughts? -- GGreeneVa 14:51, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
This article is not NPOV at all. Indeed, I think it approaches a smear job on Allen, because presents the facts of all the George Allen controversies in the most negative light possible. Oh, there are gratuitous swipes at Allen as well ("In 1994, George Allen endorsed a convicted felon, Oliver North, for the U.S. Senate), but what I am most concerned about is the fact that all of these mini-controversies are presented without any attempt to present Allen's side of the story. Allon FambrizziAllon Fambrizzi
Does it qualify as a liberal advocacy group? If so does that make opposing racism a strictly liberal value? I dont think so. Thats why I question the edit. Maybe I missed your point. Jasper23 05:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
In the course of my edit this morning I removed information cited to the Almanac of American Policits, 1994, from the article. The information read
This occurred because the Justice Department required Virginia to draw a majority-black district in order to comply with the Voting Rights Act and Virginia's Democratic legislature wished to eliminate a Republican seat. See Barone and Ujifusa, Almanac of American Politics 1994
I removed it because the explanations given appeared to be somewhat conflicting and, since I don't have the source, I was not able to confirm exactly what it said. Allon Fambrizzi added it back in, in a slightly different form,
Virginia's Democratic legislature wished to eliminate a Republican seat. See Barone and Ujifusa, Almanac of American Politics 1994.
What, exactly, does the source say? Does it say the redistricting was done because of Voting Rights Act concerns, gerrymandering, or some odd combination of both? · j e r s y k o talk · 20:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Anyone have a comment on this? An anon is wanting to create the new subsection for the "noose" issue under the "controversies" subsection; my response is "yes, it's a controversal thing to do, but the media coverage of it has not been the same as with the other controversies, so don't think it needs a section of its own." Policy-wise, I think undue weight might be relevant. · j e r s y k o talk · 22:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I've reported User:132.241.246.111 for violations of the 3rr. No fan of George Felix Allen, but also no fan of disruptive and POV behavior. If you want to rant, take it to the appropriate newsgroup/forum/blog. Stirling Newberry 23:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to jump in out of turn, but I reverted that section a couple of days back to fix two problems:
“ | Many Southern politicians become experts at striking a delicate balance between celebrating their region and its heritage without endorsing the uglier aspects of its racial history.
But, as with his remarks last week in praise of Strom Thurmond's Dixiecrat campaign for the presidency in 1948, Senator Trent Lott, the incoming majority leader, has walked closer to the most incendiary reaches of Southern history and politics than almost any other major contemporary Southern politician. Mr. Lott once told the Convention of the Sons of Confederate Veterans that "the spirit of Jefferson Davis lives in the 1984 Republican platform" and then expounded on those remarks in Southern Partisan, a magazine that celebrates the Confederacy and Southern values and traditions. Mr. Lott, while in Congress, had a column that ran periodically in the magazine of the far-right Council of Conservative Citizens, an outgrowth of the segregationist White Citizens Council, and he has spoken at the group's meetings and met with its leaders in Washington. |
” |
Glad to respond to any feedback. -- GGreeneVa 15:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
As I said before, this article still appears to have disagreement over its POV nature (or lack thereof). One of the edits I had hoped would be relatively non-controversial apparently was controversial and was was reverted. I cannot understand why a quote from his mother helps the reader understand George Allen better. If the consensus is that this should stay (and if it turns out that we have to vote on every edit) and that this information is essential to the article, then it would seem that this would further delay removing the POV/neutrality tag. Ufwuct 02:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Also, noosphere, if you have comments regarding my proposed changes to the article (or have any other suggestions regarding the POV topic), I would appreciate your input on the talk pages, rather than not participating in the discussion and then reverting my edits. I think this would be preferable for all involved. Thank you. Ufwuct 02:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the context is what is lacking from the quote. Does Allen's mother still feel this way? Is Allen also un-American? Or are his opinions different? The way that the section reads now, seems to imply that he is un-American by association with his mother or by his upbringing. Is this true? I think a little context might be helpful to avoid giving a potentially incorrect impression. Ufwuct 02:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm ok with the wording proposed above by Ufwuct. Aside from any NPOV concerns, the current blurb about his mother seems out of context without some attempt to tie it to Allen himself. Yes, biographies often discuss the subject's parents. But they almost never discuss them in such a cursory fashion. I'm not saying we need a chapter on his mother here, but we need something more than what we have simply from a stylistic standpoint. · j e r s y k o talk · 03:00, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Also, the link to the source provided does not show the quote in the article. For any that are interested, do a Google search for:
The link with the same url should appear high on the list (2nd as of 9-6-2006) with the same url as the one listed. I would add the url from the google cache, but I'm not sure if this would be a copyright violation. Ufwuct 03:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Guys/gals: Thanks for the input. It looks like this guy is one controversial character, so these changes are likely to be contentious. I'll try to make the changes one at a time and look forward to working with you guys/gals soon. Ufwuct 03:12, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
The section is presently the largest in the article. That is undue weight, not to mention duplicating info from the election article. That's why I moved it. We attempted to debate this, but nobody spoke up for several weeks, so I moved it again. Perhaps someone can justify why an election event that will likely just be trimmed significantly after the election belongs here and not the election's article?-- Rosicrucian 20:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
The Macaca controversy got much more media attention than pretty much anything else in the entire article. So I don't think it's undue weight to emphasize it. In fact, de-emphasizing it would put undue weight on the rest. -- noosph e re 22:53, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
So far I count myself and three others supporting, and one vehemently in dissent. Is there a compromise that can be reached? I am more than willing to expand the truncated section in my revision with more detail to provide better context, but I really don't think the whole section needs to be in there verbatim. Your thoughts?-- Rosicrucian 23:17, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
There continues to be news that relates to the Macaca controversy and there will likely be more as the election approaches. For instance, Allen holds 'ethnic rally': He combats recent stumble by reaching out to diverse group, US senator who called Indian man 'Macaca' decides to turn down community leadership award. With the news continuing to develop, one of the following will happen:
Let's put most this material where it belongs, in its own article where it will get a more thorough treatment.
Other news about the campaign includes: Campaign worker for George Allen avoids trespassing charges, which would also belong in the election article, not this one. I await any comments. Thanks. Ufwuct 20:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The anon who keeps posting that Allen is Jewish in the article posted this message on my talk page:
Jersyko removed a link as supporting evidence due to the link allegedly quoting Wikipedia as a source. This is a disingeuous interpretation of the article at that link: http://www.forward.com/articles/alleged-slur-casts-spotlight-on-senator%E2%80%99s-jewis/
The article does not state or imply that Wikipedia is a source for its information.
The passage in the article which mentions Wikipedia is the following: "Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia that allows users to draft and edit the entries, takes Allen’s mother’s Judaism as a given, saying that “Henrietta Lumbroso was a Jewish immigrant of Tunisian/Italian/French background.”"
It is clear from the wording of the above passage that the author intended only to illustrate the phenomenon of Wikipedia users assuming George Allen's Jewish heritage. The Author does not express or imply that her intent is to quote Wikipedia as a source for her information. "The Foward," the newspaper in which the article appears, is a respected publication that has the same standards as similar widely-distributed news sources.
Jersyko's decision to remove the link and the update to the George Allen page was a clear case of wanton and irresponsible editing. Jersyko either did not read the article thoroughly, coming to the false conclusion that it intended its reference to Wikipedia to be considered a source, or he is abusing his privelege to edit and remove other users' posts.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 169.253.4.21 ( talk • contribs) . 20:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Putting aside the message's incivility, it's just wrong. The source says "it is likely that she’s Jewish by birth, although no acknowledgment of that heritage appears in the memoir." The source then goes on to present evidence that lends credibility to the claim that his mother could be Jewish, but does not definitively prove that she is. And the article does cite Wikipedia as a source, meaning it has problems as a reliable source (I'm not casting doubt on the entire news source's reliability, but only this article's). Nowhere does the article say "Allen is Jewish" or "Allen's mother is Jewish," which is what the anon is saying in his/her edits to this article. · j e r s y k o talk · 20:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Regarding edits made by Ma ca ca, Ma ca, Macacaca, and Macaca, I think there is no need to mention his Jewish heritage in the very first sentence of the article. These sources suggest that he is a practicing Presbyterian, [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] which is a denomination of Christianity. So regardless of his background, saying he is Jewish in the first sentence is extremely misleading, if not plain wrong. Plus the source is way too POV for the first sentence. If it is needed to substantiate a claim elsewhere in the article, that's fine, but just not in the introduction. Regarding the adjective "controversial", I don't see how this source provides some vital information necessary to prove that he is in fact controversial. It's not as if pollsters asked people "Do you think George Allen is a controversial figure?". Plus, there is plenty of other information presented in the article to demonstrate this aspect of George Allen — that he is controversial (that is by showing in which controversies he has been involved) — almost all of which is presented without awkwardly shoehorning a source into the first sentence. If you would like to add it, I suggest that you should find a way to add it in the section which mentions a drop in his poll numbers due to the Macaca controversy. Ufwuct 19:43, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
All we really need here are Wiki's basic policies. Per the manual of style, ethnicity/religion isn't mentioned in the header anyway, so even if he was 100% Jewish the article shouldn't start with "George Allen is a Jewish etc." Ethnicity/religion goes under "Early life", I guess, which currently has bits and pieces on his ancestry. The Forward does pass WP:RS, and no, it doesn't use Wikipedia as a source, but just mentions that Wikipedia seems to have assumed his mother is Jewish and stated it as fact (which we shouldn't have done). So, we could mention "it has been speculated by source X that Allen's mother is of Jewish ancestry", using the Forward as a source. Mad Jack 20:02, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
The article on George Allen is the most biased and slanted Wikipedia article I've ever seen.
It should be deleted for the credibility of Wikipedia itself. 20:25, 9 September 2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.44.145.224 ( talk • contribs)
I have removed the assertion that both sides have claimed that the photo of Sidarth supports their position. I requested a source (that both "sides" made this assertion) on August 17. I did a quick google search before added the request for a source and couldn't find anything about Webb's campaign or Sidarth claiming that that photo supported their case (although Sidarth had claimed before that he had a mullet). Since no one else has been able to come up with a source in that time, I changed the wording, removing the assertion that Sidarth's "side" had claimed that the photo backed up his previous assertion.
Also, I changed the wording to reflect that this photo of him shows something quite the opposite of what most people would consider a mullet. A mullet (see pictures) is usually short in the front (and sometimes shorter on the sides), combined with longer hair at the bottom and the usually at the sides. A mohawk, on other hand, is shaved on the sides (which Sidarth's hairstyle shows) and longer in the middle of the head, usually from the forehead all the way to the neck (which Sidarth's hairstyle shows). Usually, the hair in the middle of the head sticks up in a Mohawk. Sidarth's does not. This is why I chose not to call it a mohawk, but describe it as not typical of a mullet.
I hope that my changes are not reverted, despite waiting 3 1/2 weeks for a source (and being open to discussion the whole time), and explaining my reasons for changes here. Please let me know if you have comments ( here). Thanks. Ufwuct 16:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't see how the comment violates WP:OWN. It seems appropriate to warn editors that the passage is not intended to be a full account of the event, and that updates are better served being placed on a different article.-- Rosicrucian 15:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia editors are only required to follow Wikipedia policies, not injunctions from other Wikipedia users. That's why the presence of such injunctions were a violation of WP:OWN. The new wording just seems reduntant, as there's a link to the Virginia United States Senate election, 2006 article in the body of the George Allen article anyway. But, as you say, it doesn't violate WP:OWN, and I have no problem with it. -- noosph e re 21:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)