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this is uncited since sept 2008, one year ago and I am looking to find cites for it or remove it. Also the whole article is a bit messy and in need of a tidy up.
Comment on Geoff Hoon's public persona has varied wildly from that of non-descript minister to a capable Defence Secretary and a "safe pair of hands" during and shortly after the 2003 Iraq War, to adjectives such as "slippery" and "dishonest" during the Dr. David Kelly Affair. The label "Geoff Who?" was applied by many national newspapers and he was given the joke nickname "Buff" (buffoon). He was widely expected to resign on the publication of the resulting Hutton Report. Whilst many were unsurprised at the absence of any claim of wrong-doing on Tony Blair's behalf there was widespread disbelief that both Hoon and his Permanent Secretary, Sir Kevin Tebbit, were also completely cleared of any impropriety.[citation needed] Hutton concluded that there was no "underhand" strategy in the naming of Kelly but that the Ministry of Defence failed to inform and advise him of the effects his name entering the public domain. Hoon was unpopular throughout the Armed Forces, who considered him to be an advocate of unnecessary change and accused him of weakening the Forces. In particular, the then Chief of the Defence Staff, Admiral Sir Michael Boyce, publicly accused Hoon of neglecting morale and efficiency in his policies.[citation needed] The military's low opinion of him was long-standing and dated back to his handling of the Chinook helicopter crash on the Mull of Kintyre.
Off2riorob ( talk) 14:41, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
I've taken the uncited military negativity out, I suppose they are not bothered now he is gone. It looks a lot better now. Off2riorob ( talk) 11:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
The independant link to this is broken and there are no wayback links,
Shortly after the US/UK led invasion of Iraq began in 2003, Hoon stated that mothers of Iraqi children killed by cluster bombs would thank Britain for their use 'one day'. Following an admission by the Ministry of Defence that Britain had dropped 50 airborne cluster munitions in the south of Iraq and left behind up to 800 unexploded bomblets, it was put to Hoon in a Radio 4 interview that an Iraqi mother of a child killed by these cluster bombs would not thank the British army. He replied "One day they might."
any ideas? Off2riorob ( talk) 13:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
this link is to do with cluster bombs but with different comments [ [1]] Off2riorob ( talk) 13:19, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
here is the dead link [ [2]] Off2riorob ( talk) 13:21, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
is this it? [ [3]]
Its working now, I added an additional explanatory comment. Off2riorob ( talk) 13:39, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
This derogatory not notable not well known not encyclopedic valuless partisan slur disguised as a nickname has been added, it has no value at all. Please provide here or move to the WP:BLPN the context and discussion to reveal reasons for its notability and to support it is a well known nickname. Off2riorob ( talk) 19:36, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
This is what is going to be added. It has several citations, including one with the man himself discussing the name. If you don't provide a reason not to include it (other than "Hoon might not like it" then you are clearly acting inappropriately. ╟─ Treasury Tag► Not-content─╢ 19:58, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Expand to see. |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
==Nickname== Hoon has aquired the irreverent nickname Buff, (''Buffoon''). Although it was originally rumored to have been the invention of a member of the Conservative Party, fellow Labour Party collegue Peter Kilfoyle recently took responsibility. <ref>http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/pandora/pandora-kilfoyle-i-gave-geoff-his-buff-hoon-nickname-1874219.html</ref><ref name="guardian">{{cite news|url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2007/jan/24/euenlargement|title=Hoon's no buffoon in eyes of the EU|last=Tran|first=Mark|date=24 January 2007|publisher=''[[The Guardian]]''|language=[[English language|English]]|accessdate=8 June 2010|location=[[United Kingdom]]}}</ref> In at least one interview, Hoon has been questioned over his feelings towards the name.<ref name="buffoon">{{cite news|url=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/geoff-hoon-you-ask-the-questions-966947.html|title=Geoff Hoon: You Ask The Questions|date=20 October 2008|work=[[The Independent]]|publisher=''[[The Independent]]''|language=[[English language|English]]|accessdate=8 June 2010|location=[[United Kingdom]]}}</ref>'' |
We are not here to propagate derogatory not notable press nicknames that have no content value apart from to demean the living subject. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:08, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
We are not here to propagate derogatory not notable press nicknames that have no content value apart from to demean the living subject. Also note I have opened a thread at the BLPN as I see this as nothing less than a simple insult and feel free to make your case for inclusion at the noticeboard and see if there is consensus for inclusion of this derogatory nickname there, thread at the BLPN is Hoon the buffoon. Off2riorob ( talk) 9:08 pm, Today (UTC+1)
Feel free to add any of the worthwhile content you are citing here about this and that mistakes hoon has made, this is not under dispute and unlike the not notable valueless insulting nickname has a value.Please seek support and consensus on the BLP noticeboard to add the Hoon the buffoon slur. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:28, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Whatever, your desired addition has no value apart from insulting the living subject, feel free to seek support for your desired addition on the thread at the BLP noticeboard, this man has done this and that negative notable things and I support the inclusion of those issues, actual they are already in the article, I object to your desired addition of what I see as a insulting slur of a nickname with no encyclopedic value. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:37, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I have looked through the sources and I have to agree with TreasuryTag that there is sufficient supporting evidence to mention that he was given the nickname. However the suggested edit above makes it into a dedicated section, which appears to give undue weight to the name; it is a fact that he was given the name, but I don't think we can say it is enough of a defining aspect to merit its own section of the article.
One thing to consider when referring to a nickname is not just the number of sources that use it, but the time periods as well. The CNN source is about the May 2006 reshuffle, the Independent asks him about the name in October 2008, the Mail is from February 2009, the Express is from April 2009, while the Times, Mirror, Sky and Daily Record all date to January 2010. That means we have evidence of repeat use for at least 5 years; it is not just a slur used for a single election campaign, but something that appears to have stuck with him.
Road Wizard (
talk)
20:48, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
It is a simple valueless insult, we are here to report what he has done not such insults, people rush to agree that we should add such rubbish but the real valuable to the reader content is ignored. Hoon the coon, I have removed that also previously, Hoon the buffoon, it is not a notable nickname at all, its a simple insult. If you want to add an insult then enjoy but it is imo a shame on wikipedia that this sort of valueless insult is added to any article. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:53, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
I think it is clear it is notable. WP:Notability applies to article subjects, not bits of content. It is abundantly clear that the nickname is verified by reliable sources. But that is really beside the point. No, we don't exclude negative material, but we don't include it without a point. Right now, the nickname is gratuitous. If it can be included in a way that helps tell the story of Geoff Hoon, by all means include it. As it stands, we are saying, "Some people called him idiot. It was thought Conservatives started it, but it was apparently Peter Kilfoyle. Hoon has been asked about how the nickname makes him feel." That's just silly. How about something more like, "After a series of gaffes, he acquired the nickname "Buff" Hoon, which fellow Labour MP Peter Kilfoyle later admitted to coining." The bit about the interview frankly misrepresents the question and answer, so it should be cut altogether. He was asked if he know it was his nickname and why he though he got it; his initial response was to make a joke about it (presumably taking "buff" to mean muscular), then brushed it off saying "buffoon" is not the worst thing he's ever been called. - Rrius ( talk) 21:43, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
So why do they insult him with this buffoon nickname? The reason should be included. The comment as added is not correct, it says in at least one interview... how many interviews is it? one? in the cited independent it is not an interview it is a question from a member of the public and hoons reply also needs to be included to give context..when asked by a member of the public if Hoon know he was sometimes nicknamed Buffoon hoon replied that if that was the worst thing he was called that he would be doing well. I suggest this be added and the reason that he is called this also be added, why is he nicknamed buffoon?in the other citation it says of the nickname and referring to Hoon...For years it has tormented him and delighted opponents....perhaps we should add that the nickname has tormented Hoon for years and that the person that claims he coined the nickname said of his humour "Liverpool wit is spontaneous – and cruelly insulting." Some context needs to be added to give note to the nickname. The BBC said.. Defence Secretary, Geoff Hoon, is in hot water with the Sunday tabloids who've given him a new name - Buff-Hoon for taking a holiday as the country prepares for war. Looking at the cites provided its just an insulting name, nothing special about it at all, a way to insult him, not worthy of including at all unless you want to insult him as well. ..I can't see it in the encyclopedia brittania can you? HO ho ho, they called him hoon the buffoon, how hilarious and noteworthy. In another cite it says.. The ex-Defence Secretary - known as "Buff" Hoon by Labour enemies , we could add that to give the name some context? That it is a deliberately insulting nickname designed to ridicule Hoon and was given to him by his enemies. Off2riorob ( talk) 12:29, 9 June 2010 (UTC) Off2riorob ( talk) 12:23, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
I don't see those two things can go together, something that is simply insulting can not by its very nature be encyclopedic. Off2riorob ( talk) 15:30, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
TT, please remain calm (always best in these cases). Rob, if you make such an undiscussed change I may ask for you to be banned from editing the article (but not the talk page). This is not a battle Rob, and you're not going to convince anyone with the same argument that has already failed. You have not gained any support for your position, which goes against consensus here and policy consensus. Verbal chat 17:14, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
To prevent an edit-war; if there's consensus at BLPN that the material can be included that's probably the way to go. Black Kite (t) (c) 20:52, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
"His daughter goes on bare crewdates with MC Dollers at Jamals." I don't know what this means, but it is unsourced and should probably be removed. Also, colleague is spelt incorrectly. I tried to fix the spelling but the page got protected.
Verbal
chat
Done
Could an admin please place {{ Brown Cabinet}} in the external links section, thank you.-- [[User: Duffy2032|Duffy2032]] ( talk) 02:39, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
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This entry seems to say he was an MEP and simultaneously an MP, between 1992 and 1994. I don't think that's possible. Bigmund ( talk) 20:16, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
That smells like left-wing, anti-military bias insisting he is a tool of America.
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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this is uncited since sept 2008, one year ago and I am looking to find cites for it or remove it. Also the whole article is a bit messy and in need of a tidy up.
Comment on Geoff Hoon's public persona has varied wildly from that of non-descript minister to a capable Defence Secretary and a "safe pair of hands" during and shortly after the 2003 Iraq War, to adjectives such as "slippery" and "dishonest" during the Dr. David Kelly Affair. The label "Geoff Who?" was applied by many national newspapers and he was given the joke nickname "Buff" (buffoon). He was widely expected to resign on the publication of the resulting Hutton Report. Whilst many were unsurprised at the absence of any claim of wrong-doing on Tony Blair's behalf there was widespread disbelief that both Hoon and his Permanent Secretary, Sir Kevin Tebbit, were also completely cleared of any impropriety.[citation needed] Hutton concluded that there was no "underhand" strategy in the naming of Kelly but that the Ministry of Defence failed to inform and advise him of the effects his name entering the public domain. Hoon was unpopular throughout the Armed Forces, who considered him to be an advocate of unnecessary change and accused him of weakening the Forces. In particular, the then Chief of the Defence Staff, Admiral Sir Michael Boyce, publicly accused Hoon of neglecting morale and efficiency in his policies.[citation needed] The military's low opinion of him was long-standing and dated back to his handling of the Chinook helicopter crash on the Mull of Kintyre.
Off2riorob ( talk) 14:41, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
I've taken the uncited military negativity out, I suppose they are not bothered now he is gone. It looks a lot better now. Off2riorob ( talk) 11:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
The independant link to this is broken and there are no wayback links,
Shortly after the US/UK led invasion of Iraq began in 2003, Hoon stated that mothers of Iraqi children killed by cluster bombs would thank Britain for their use 'one day'. Following an admission by the Ministry of Defence that Britain had dropped 50 airborne cluster munitions in the south of Iraq and left behind up to 800 unexploded bomblets, it was put to Hoon in a Radio 4 interview that an Iraqi mother of a child killed by these cluster bombs would not thank the British army. He replied "One day they might."
any ideas? Off2riorob ( talk) 13:13, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
this link is to do with cluster bombs but with different comments [ [1]] Off2riorob ( talk) 13:19, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
here is the dead link [ [2]] Off2riorob ( talk) 13:21, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
is this it? [ [3]]
Its working now, I added an additional explanatory comment. Off2riorob ( talk) 13:39, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
This derogatory not notable not well known not encyclopedic valuless partisan slur disguised as a nickname has been added, it has no value at all. Please provide here or move to the WP:BLPN the context and discussion to reveal reasons for its notability and to support it is a well known nickname. Off2riorob ( talk) 19:36, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
This is what is going to be added. It has several citations, including one with the man himself discussing the name. If you don't provide a reason not to include it (other than "Hoon might not like it" then you are clearly acting inappropriately. ╟─ Treasury Tag► Not-content─╢ 19:58, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Expand to see. |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
==Nickname== Hoon has aquired the irreverent nickname Buff, (''Buffoon''). Although it was originally rumored to have been the invention of a member of the Conservative Party, fellow Labour Party collegue Peter Kilfoyle recently took responsibility. <ref>http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/pandora/pandora-kilfoyle-i-gave-geoff-his-buff-hoon-nickname-1874219.html</ref><ref name="guardian">{{cite news|url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2007/jan/24/euenlargement|title=Hoon's no buffoon in eyes of the EU|last=Tran|first=Mark|date=24 January 2007|publisher=''[[The Guardian]]''|language=[[English language|English]]|accessdate=8 June 2010|location=[[United Kingdom]]}}</ref> In at least one interview, Hoon has been questioned over his feelings towards the name.<ref name="buffoon">{{cite news|url=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/geoff-hoon-you-ask-the-questions-966947.html|title=Geoff Hoon: You Ask The Questions|date=20 October 2008|work=[[The Independent]]|publisher=''[[The Independent]]''|language=[[English language|English]]|accessdate=8 June 2010|location=[[United Kingdom]]}}</ref>'' |
We are not here to propagate derogatory not notable press nicknames that have no content value apart from to demean the living subject. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:08, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
We are not here to propagate derogatory not notable press nicknames that have no content value apart from to demean the living subject. Also note I have opened a thread at the BLPN as I see this as nothing less than a simple insult and feel free to make your case for inclusion at the noticeboard and see if there is consensus for inclusion of this derogatory nickname there, thread at the BLPN is Hoon the buffoon. Off2riorob ( talk) 9:08 pm, Today (UTC+1)
Feel free to add any of the worthwhile content you are citing here about this and that mistakes hoon has made, this is not under dispute and unlike the not notable valueless insulting nickname has a value.Please seek support and consensus on the BLP noticeboard to add the Hoon the buffoon slur. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:28, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Whatever, your desired addition has no value apart from insulting the living subject, feel free to seek support for your desired addition on the thread at the BLP noticeboard, this man has done this and that negative notable things and I support the inclusion of those issues, actual they are already in the article, I object to your desired addition of what I see as a insulting slur of a nickname with no encyclopedic value. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:37, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I have looked through the sources and I have to agree with TreasuryTag that there is sufficient supporting evidence to mention that he was given the nickname. However the suggested edit above makes it into a dedicated section, which appears to give undue weight to the name; it is a fact that he was given the name, but I don't think we can say it is enough of a defining aspect to merit its own section of the article.
One thing to consider when referring to a nickname is not just the number of sources that use it, but the time periods as well. The CNN source is about the May 2006 reshuffle, the Independent asks him about the name in October 2008, the Mail is from February 2009, the Express is from April 2009, while the Times, Mirror, Sky and Daily Record all date to January 2010. That means we have evidence of repeat use for at least 5 years; it is not just a slur used for a single election campaign, but something that appears to have stuck with him.
Road Wizard (
talk)
20:48, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
It is a simple valueless insult, we are here to report what he has done not such insults, people rush to agree that we should add such rubbish but the real valuable to the reader content is ignored. Hoon the coon, I have removed that also previously, Hoon the buffoon, it is not a notable nickname at all, its a simple insult. If you want to add an insult then enjoy but it is imo a shame on wikipedia that this sort of valueless insult is added to any article. Off2riorob ( talk) 20:53, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
I think it is clear it is notable. WP:Notability applies to article subjects, not bits of content. It is abundantly clear that the nickname is verified by reliable sources. But that is really beside the point. No, we don't exclude negative material, but we don't include it without a point. Right now, the nickname is gratuitous. If it can be included in a way that helps tell the story of Geoff Hoon, by all means include it. As it stands, we are saying, "Some people called him idiot. It was thought Conservatives started it, but it was apparently Peter Kilfoyle. Hoon has been asked about how the nickname makes him feel." That's just silly. How about something more like, "After a series of gaffes, he acquired the nickname "Buff" Hoon, which fellow Labour MP Peter Kilfoyle later admitted to coining." The bit about the interview frankly misrepresents the question and answer, so it should be cut altogether. He was asked if he know it was his nickname and why he though he got it; his initial response was to make a joke about it (presumably taking "buff" to mean muscular), then brushed it off saying "buffoon" is not the worst thing he's ever been called. - Rrius ( talk) 21:43, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
So why do they insult him with this buffoon nickname? The reason should be included. The comment as added is not correct, it says in at least one interview... how many interviews is it? one? in the cited independent it is not an interview it is a question from a member of the public and hoons reply also needs to be included to give context..when asked by a member of the public if Hoon know he was sometimes nicknamed Buffoon hoon replied that if that was the worst thing he was called that he would be doing well. I suggest this be added and the reason that he is called this also be added, why is he nicknamed buffoon?in the other citation it says of the nickname and referring to Hoon...For years it has tormented him and delighted opponents....perhaps we should add that the nickname has tormented Hoon for years and that the person that claims he coined the nickname said of his humour "Liverpool wit is spontaneous – and cruelly insulting." Some context needs to be added to give note to the nickname. The BBC said.. Defence Secretary, Geoff Hoon, is in hot water with the Sunday tabloids who've given him a new name - Buff-Hoon for taking a holiday as the country prepares for war. Looking at the cites provided its just an insulting name, nothing special about it at all, a way to insult him, not worthy of including at all unless you want to insult him as well. ..I can't see it in the encyclopedia brittania can you? HO ho ho, they called him hoon the buffoon, how hilarious and noteworthy. In another cite it says.. The ex-Defence Secretary - known as "Buff" Hoon by Labour enemies , we could add that to give the name some context? That it is a deliberately insulting nickname designed to ridicule Hoon and was given to him by his enemies. Off2riorob ( talk) 12:29, 9 June 2010 (UTC) Off2riorob ( talk) 12:23, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
I don't see those two things can go together, something that is simply insulting can not by its very nature be encyclopedic. Off2riorob ( talk) 15:30, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
TT, please remain calm (always best in these cases). Rob, if you make such an undiscussed change I may ask for you to be banned from editing the article (but not the talk page). This is not a battle Rob, and you're not going to convince anyone with the same argument that has already failed. You have not gained any support for your position, which goes against consensus here and policy consensus. Verbal chat 17:14, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
To prevent an edit-war; if there's consensus at BLPN that the material can be included that's probably the way to go. Black Kite (t) (c) 20:52, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
"His daughter goes on bare crewdates with MC Dollers at Jamals." I don't know what this means, but it is unsourced and should probably be removed. Also, colleague is spelt incorrectly. I tried to fix the spelling but the page got protected.
Verbal
chat
Done
Could an admin please place {{ Brown Cabinet}} in the external links section, thank you.-- [[User: Duffy2032|Duffy2032]] ( talk) 02:39, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
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This entry seems to say he was an MEP and simultaneously an MP, between 1992 and 1994. I don't think that's possible. Bigmund ( talk) 20:16, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
That smells like left-wing, anti-military bias insisting he is a tool of America.