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Why aren't the Iraqi sanctions listed here? Isn't it the case that two UN Assistant SG's, Dennis Halliday and Hans von Sponeck, both resigned from their positions and denounced the sanctions as "genocide"? Gatoclass 21:14, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
This incident, in which the Japanese Army in 1937 was released on the Chinese city of Nanking and directed to annihilate 300,000 Chinese civilians over the period of a few weeks, is considered a genocide. See Nanking Massacre article for sources. Jimhoward72 14:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I believe the entire holocaust of the Asians by the japanese, from the late 1800s to 1945, including the Koreans, Chinese and Southeast Asians should be mentioned. Or at least a link to japanese war crimes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.66.184.238 ( talk) 17:30, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
From the edit history of the article:
See archives Talk:Genocides in history/Archive 1#Kashmir, Talk:Genocides in history/Archive 2#Kashmir -- PBS 12:03, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I find that the photo depecting a "racial cleansing" in action with a Pak army checking the private parts of a Bengali has been removed. Is there any particular reason why it was removed by PBS? Thanks.-- Idleguy 02:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
The picture was removed with this comment in the history:
I have no opinion on the photo. -- PBS 16:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of the +100 million Native Americans that were killed by the Europeans? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Asach ( talk • contribs) 14:27, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
why aren't there any statements about his genocide in canaan? YODAFON 06:33, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
The genocide in Hispanola is mentioned but I find the figure of eight million to be highly questionable. I do not believe this island was capable of supporting such a large population to begin with. While I do agree with the contention that Columbus exterminated virtually the entire population, I think this figure needs to be revised. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.215.57.156 ( talk) 07:20, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
This section seems awfully long for a subject that most scholars do not consider to have been a genocide. I know it was previously deleted altogether, which would be acceptable to me, but I know some editors think it should be included. I suggest it be reduced to two modest paragraphs at most. All the info about the deaths by disease seems superfluous (a simple statement that most of the deaths were by disease and a cite or two should be enough). Mamalujo 18:42, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I added this paragraph under "Americas" but it was removed:
Slave Trade
The human toll resulting from the Atlantic slave trade (which includes the conflicts and forced procurement of slaves in Africa and deaths resulting from the trip also known as the Middle Passage is estimated at between 8 and 16 million people.
I am wondering why it was removed? While some may see the loss of slaves as as "losses in inventory" others view it as a holocaust. I am quoting from the wikipedia article Atlantic slave trade: "The slave-trade is sometimes called the Maafa by African and African-American scholars, meaning "holocaust" or "great disaster" in Swahili."
Because of the number of trips over a number of decades one could say that the traders expected and planned for the losses of life they incurred. While it wasn't intentional extermination (the slaves were part of a business venture after all) one must say that the losses, if they weren't expected on the very first trip across, were factored into the "costs" of later trips. If the traders were willing to accept the costs of millions of deaths... I think that counts as a genocide. 71.252.124.129 23:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)Mark Cimino 7:50 PM Oct 11, 2007
But slaves were exterminated on purpose. When they were deemed useless they were killed. and millions died that way. What is Genocide?
(a) Killing members of the group
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
The slave trade is this. It complied to nearly all of the UN's definition.
-- Vehgah ( talk) 20:01, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
David Hiskiyahu, 12-Oct-2007 ----
This is a bad sentence: ' .. upwards of 11 million people (excluding Jews) were systematically "exterminated" (a Nazi term) by the Nazis and their collaborators during the Holocaust, of which over 10 millions were Slavs.[45] ..'
One may think that 10 million of collaborators were Slavs, while the intention of the article is to say that 10 million out of 11 million people killed, in this given context, were Slavs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.207.101.112 ( talk) 11:52, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I have moved this section here because neither the main article or this text has any sources -- let alone a reliable source -- claiming that this was a genocide. Several sentences have had {{ fact}} on them since June and there is a quote without a citation (see WP:POINT) -- PBS 08:34, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
( 1941 - 1945) Genocide against Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia. The Croatian Ustasha regime committed genocide against Serbs, Jews and Roma (Gypsies) during World War II. They also mass murdered other political opponents.
After the invasion and destruction of the Yugoslav army by the Axis Powers in 1941, they supported the creation of the Independent State of Croatia (NDH) which was run by the Croatian fascist group the Ustaše. The leader of this state Ante Pavelić put into effect a campaign of persecution and genocide against the Serbs, Jews and Roma.
This policy was set out by Mile Budak, the Minister for Education & Culture who in his speech of 22 July 1941, said that:
The basis for the Ustashe movement is religion. For minorities such as the Serbs, Jews, and Gypsies, we have three million bullets. We will kill a part of the Serbs. Others we will deport, and the rest we will force to accept the Roman Catholic Religion. Thus the new Croatia will be rid of all Serbs in its midst in order to be 100% Catholic within 10 years.
The Independent State of Croatia was the only state created by the Axis Powers that ran its own concentration camps independently of Nazi direction, the largest being the Jasenovac concentration camp.
The number of people killed, deported and converted by the Croat Ustashe between 1941-1945 could be more than 1 000 000. citation needed. See Ustaše#Victims and Jasenovac concentration camp for details. According to the Simon Wiesenthal Center (citing the Encyclopaedia of the Holocaust): "Ustasa terrorists killed 500,000 Serbs, expelled 250,000 and forced 250,000 to convert to Catholicism. They murdered thousands of Jews and Gypsies." citation needed
This Serbian Genocide resulted in elimination of the presence of Serbian people in a large section of Croatia and Bosnia. Independent State of Croatia]] (NDH) occupied a large section of Bosnia and Hercegovina and Serbia/Srem and massacred hundreds of thousands of Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Serbia.
The article currently states that the Independent State of Croatia "ruled the part of Yugoslavia that was occupied by the Axis Powers during World War II". Is this really correct? If thought Serbia, at least part of the time, was under German occupation and that other parts were under Italian/Albanian influence/control. If so, we should change the text. Osli73 09:50, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Since the numbers killed is so uncertain and controversial I agree that the article should cite a range. However, it appears that academics have been able to pinpoint a tighter range than that cited in the article. This from United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's site:
Due to differing views and lack of documentation, estimates for the number of Serbian victims in Croatia range widely, from 25,000 to more than one million. The estimated number of Serbs killed in Jasenovac ranges from 25,000 to 700,000. The most reliable figures place the number of Serbs killed by the Ustaša between 330,000 and 390,000, with 45,000 to 52,000 Serbs murdered in Jasenovac.
Germans and Ustaša killed approximately 32,000 Jews from Croatia between 1941 and 1945. The precise number of Jews murdered in the Jasenovac complex is not known, but estimates range from 8,000 to 20,000 victims. These numbers do not include Jews whom the Ustaša authorities turned over to the Germans for deportation to Auschwitz and other camps.
Statistics for Romani victims are difficult to assess, as there are no firm estimates of their number in prewar Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. The best estimates calculate the number of Romani victims at about 26,000, of whom between 8,000 and 15,000 perished in Jasenovac.
There are only loose estimates for the number of Croats murdered by the Ustaša. This group included political and religious opponents of the regime, both Catholic and Muslim. Between 5,000 and 12,000 Croats are believed to have died in Jasenovac. There are no reliable statistics on the number of Muslim victims.
From this maybe we should state a range of 393,000-434,000 killed, with the vast majority being Serbs. I think a table is always helpful. That would also make it easier to present different estimates and ranges next to each other. How about that Osli73 10:06, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following recent addition stating in the edit history that the source does not use the word genocide:
A recent (as of August 2007) book by Amaresh Misra estimates that the number of people murdered by the British in retaliation for the Indian Rebellion of 1857 was 10 million. His calculations are based on triangulation of several different sets of records. If Misra's estimate is proved correct, this was the greatest genocide in history, worse than the Holocaust or Stalin's purges. Other historians have questioned these figures suggesting that the total includes refugees (as the figures are based on regional depopulation figures) and famine (a not uncommon occurrence in India at the time).(Guardian August 24, 2007 India's secret history: a holocaust)
However I am aware that some might argue that holocaust and genocide are interchangeable and that the Guardian use the word holocaust. But there are several other points on this particular entry:
-- PBS 09:59, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand why somebody claims following "In legal terms, the word "genocide" may not be appropriate, because there was no proven intent to destroy a specific national, ethnic, racial or religious group."
The good example is Soviet extermination of Poles 1937-1938. We have documented the whole operation directed for the ethnic group selected due to nationality. We have documented number of victims. What else is needed to remove this false statement?? Cautious 09:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
1. I don't understand why this criteria is not used in the discussing article regarding other alleged genocides. Why it should be applied only in case of Polish peasants decimated by NKVD and not in other cases? 2. Please apply above criteria to specific case of Polish minority in USSR.
Cautious 11:56, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Polish state officialy considers Katyn Massacre to be a Soviet genocide, just for the record. If needed I can find references.-- Molobo 01:55, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
We seem to have missed the primitive genocides. ex. The Erie tribe of the Americas was exterminated by their fellow American Indians so recently we have the written records from Western observers. Just noting there is a LONG way to go to make this an acceptable page. 67.161.166.20 22:45, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
The contention that the suppression of the Revolt in the Vendée constituted a case of genocide is a marginal one, indeed it only has several published supporters in the whole academic world, and the expert/scholarly consensus is that it was not a case of genocide. Therefore I propose that the section be removed wholesale, and the content transferred to the appropriate article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolt_in_the_Vend%C3%A9e#Claims_of_genocide (I have already copied and pasted much of the content to the latter article).
With regards to the case of Napolean and Haiti, although very controversial in itself (and having only one published, highly polemical source), I don't object to keeping it in the article per se - although there is a question of weighting, and whether this incident should stand on the same foot as the other sections on instances of genocide. I perhaps think it should be kept, but an appropriatethe title, such as "Napolean and Haiti" or something similar...
Please comment. Ledenierhomme 10:35, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
RfC Comment - from my initial inspection into this, the high death toll seems to be, largely, a result of warfare. please state arguments made for the genocide claims (and who supports/rejects them). Jaakobou Chalk Talk 14:21, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
For similar reasons. To create sections on cases where certain governments or regimes are simply accused of committing genocide, in an article entitled "Genocides in history", I think is both dishonest and dangerous. Ledenierhomme 09:40, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I made a mistake. I intented to post in the former section. There is an article on wp:fr that talks about this matter (Vendean repression) and they give 3 historians that seem reliable. I asked the editor who wrote this article to give their mind about their reliability or if this is just a "controverse". (I say this just for information - that could help). Well, a good criteria could be :
What do you think about that ? Alithien 19:43, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Alithien if we were to implement such a policy where are the Wikipedia policies to back it up? -- PBS 08:25, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Since when is it appropriate to identify the religion of historians cited in encyclopedia articles? Do we identify elsewhere "Soandso, Baptist historian", "Soandso, Orthodox Jewish historian" or "Soandso, atheist historian". It is just not appropriate it is an attempt to discredit the historian's work not based on the work but on an ad hominem and, that being the case, it is impermissable POV. I am removing it. Mamalujo 22:46, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi/Salut
writing "Mr X, this very biased historian" is of course pov-ed and not acceptable.
Alithien
16:43, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I haven't seen from the above discussion any argument that refutes my position that references to the scholar's politics and religion are POV. As such, I'm deleting the references, again. Please address these issues before adding the info again. Mamalujo 17:16, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Unless backed up with a citation "great majority of authorities" are weasel words and WP:SYN. Ledenierhomme if you want to say it find another way to do it or find a source to back up the statement. -- PBS 08:04, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
If it is self evident -- and I think it is -- then it does not need stating explicitly ( Let the facts speak for themselves). If it is explicitly stated that the "great majority of authorities" then it needs a source otherwise it is in breach of WP:SYN.
Also please note that WP:V says "In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. As a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the evidence and arguments of a particular work, the more reliable it is." Are you sure that the two books you are dismissing (published by Routledge and Transaction Publishers are not from "respected publishing houses"?
The other authors who cite Secher or support his views, may well be of the same political views, but that does not invalidate their publishing or that fact being mentioned in this section. The reason for this is because if Secher was the only person to have made the claim then his views could excluded under WP:Undue weight. But once more authors/scholars start to cite his work, he may still be in a minority but his views should be represented to create a balanced POV even if the majority expert view is that he is not correct. (see Neutrality and verifiability and Fairness of tone)
Please understand that you and I are on the same side, to understand my take on this please consider Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial, Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles as well as the sections in the NPOV mentioned above). An interesting way to approach this is to consider as an intellectual exercise how you would debate the issue at a debating society debate not with your point of view, but that of a point of view that you disagree with. (see Wikipedia:Writing for the enemy)
There is also a practical reason for presenting both POVs for disputes like this in as unbiased way as possible, because if they are not handled in a fair and unbiased way, one is doomed to fight the same arguments on the talk page every few months. Just have a look how often deleted paragraphs are re-inserted into this article by different people. By presenting a section from a NPOV then it is possible to keep the POV disputes to a minimum and for those disputes to revolve around specific details in how to implement any changes within existing policies and guidelines. -- PBS 12:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
In a recent edit in the France section I deleted an unsourced reference to Adam Jones and others as "non-expert, non-authoritative authors". One problem with unsourced statements of this kind is that they are not verifiable. Sometimes, even when partly true, they are misleading. Other times they are completely contrary to the facts. That is the case here. To demonstrate, I've included the bio of Jones from the book referenced: "Adam Jones, Ph.D., is Associate Professor of Political Science at the University of British Columbia Okanagan. Prior to that, he was Research Fellow for 2005-07 in the Genocide Studies Program at Yale University, and taught for five years at the CIDE research institute in Mexico City. He is editor of two books on genocide: Gendercide and Genocide (Vanderbilt University Press, 2004) and Genocide, War Crimes & the West (Zed Books, 2004). He has also published two books on the mass media and political transition. His scholarly articles have appeared in Review of International Studies, Ethnic and Racial Studies, Journal of Genocide Research, Journal of Human Rights, and other publications. He is executive director of Gendercide Watch, a web-based educational initiative that confronts gender-selective atrocities against men and women worldwide." Perusal of scholarly reviews of the subject book and other work by Jones shows exactly how false the unsourced posting regaring his work was.
The Vendee is not universally recognized as genocide. Jones says as much in his book, and others who consider it genocide admit that. But attempts to cast it a a fringe view or a discredited theory advanced only by dilettantes are wrong. Mamalujo 18:34, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
(out-dent)Are you suggesting that only current alleged genocides are the province of genocide studies? Do you not consider that past genocides and alleged genocides my also be part of their area of expertise? -- PBS 21:46, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest, rather that edit warring, the editors work for a consensus version on the France section. I am glad to have sourced criticism which accurately reflects the critiques of those who deny the Vendee as genocide. I think the section should be shortened, especially in light of the limited acceptance, but it should be complete. An extensive listing of the names and the institutions of the scholars who deny the Vendee's status is a waste of space. It is sufficient to say that the thesis was a relatively recently conceived break with the traditional historiography and that many scholars vehemently deny the clasification as genocide (certainly all the cites to the several works can remain). If there are reliable and recent (as acceptance of the classification appears to be growing) cites to the degree of acceptance among genocide scholars, there is no reason why that shouldn't be included either. If a survey of the International Association of Genocide Scholars or the International Network of Genocide Scholars indicates that most don't accept it, fine. Or if a noted scholar, preferably an advocate for the classification, recently admited that most don't accept it, fine. If necessary I will try to draft a short but complete entry, which I believe would be acceptable to all editors and which well notes the limited acceptance and the criticisms. If someone else feels up to the task, all the better. Mamalujo 01:49, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
The France section originally began with Secher's charge, then clumsily digressed into a description of the event itself, then presented pro- and anti- views in a choppy fashion. I reorganized it in order to present the material in a more logical sequence - description of the event first, followed by Secher's charge and those who support his views, followed in turn by those who refute him. Ledenierhomme reverted with the edit summary that I should discuss these changes first. Since I've now explained my reasons for these changes, I've reverted back.
Ledenierhomme also reinserted statements about the black revolt leader Dessalines which are contradicted by their own sources (sources which are clearly substandard in any case). Apart from which, Dessalines' actions are completely irrelevant to the topic of this page. So I have again removed this material. Gatoclass 01:56, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
User: PBS, I have advised you already not to edit an article which you have clearly demonstrated a profound lack of knowledge on (wrong spelling, mainstream opinion, scholarship and peer-review, historiography etc). I don't see why you feel compelled to contradict every single edit I make, and demand a source for virtually every sentence, but here goes...
1) It is self-evident that it does not fit the traditional/conventional definition of genocide as both Republicans and Royalists were/are of the same ethnicity, culture and religion. You do know that don't you?
2) There clearly is a traditional/conventional tradition of genocide. The term was coined in 1944 to describe the unparalleled horrors of the Holocaust. The definition presented by Lemkin was accepted and repeated throughout the Western world, and was adopted by the United Nations in a special convention in 1948 - it remains so expressed in the UN to this day, and remains the most commonly understood meaning of the term. According to the Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions, it was not until 1959 that someone, Peter Drost (whoever he is), presented a broader definition. Many broader definitions have been presented since, but none of them have been admitted to national or international law, or become dominant in either layperson or academic understanding (or any respected dictionaries or encyclopedias). You've mentioned that you value international jurist/court decisions on the subject of genocide - have you ever known a court to rule a genocide has occurred under one of these broader definitions? Of course not, as virtually every nation-state who has fought a "one-sided" war would be guilty - including all permanent members of the UN security council.
It is obviously quite ridiculous to provide a source for the fact that the Royalist Vendeans were/are of the same ethnic, religious and cultural make-up as the Republican Vendeans and the rest of France, but I'm going to reference McPhee (4th paragraph) just to stop you edit warring, for whatever reason you have for doing so (the mind boggles). - Ledenierhomme 06:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
There is no point to get. If you want to say the "prevailing view in the relevant academic community" then you need a source that says it otherwise it is WP:SYN. The source you have given to date does not support the statement. To give you a simple example. In Football (word) it is self evident that most English speakers mean American Football when they say "football" but unless a source can be found that states that this is true it is WP:SYN to write so in Wikipedia, hence the article says "There are 215 million people who speak English as a first language in the United States,[1] out of 309-380 million native speakers worldwide.[2][3] One consequence of this is that most people who speak English as a first language refer to Association football as "soccer".[4]" because that has a source. What you are doing here is saying I know it is true because I have read lots of articles on the subject. But that is not sufficient for inclusion in Wikipedia, and it is not up to me to refute the statement it is up to you to produce a source to support the statements or we need to re-write the sentences so that they do not fall foul of WP:SYN which for those who do not want to follow a link says "Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research." In this case you are saying "EVERY authority that has published on Secher's claims has rejected them [(I know because I have read all of them)]" so I can write "prevailing view in the relevant academic community" but that is original research. -- PBS 18:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes I read you post. You make a fair point in this last paragraph, but as I said before we need to rephrase the sentences if they are not to fall foul of WP:SYN (and for that matter when looking at WP:RS guideline see the section Claims of consensus: "Claims of consensus must be sourced. The claim that all or most scientists, scholars, or ministers hold a certain view requires a reliable source. Without it, opinions should be identified as those of particular, named sources.". The difference is that one person claiming a fact is not the same as extrapolating a general truth (as is implied using the passive narrative voice). Also I think you are hanging too heavier coat on the peg of scholarship as in this case the author is quoted by other sources and as such is not a lone voice crying in the wilderness. -- PBS 12:52, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
The changes I have made to the France section are to integrate three paragraphs into two -- one for and one against. I have altered some of the references which were are English language sources from French into English. I have removed the nationality of the scholars mentioned in the paragraphs as in MHO they are not needed, and the nationality of the scholars were not taken from sources, (To paraphrase Wellington "Just because one works in a stable, it doesn't make one a horse").. I have also removed the Claims of consensus by doing as the advise in that guideline section suggests: "opinions should be identified as those of particular, named sources".
Given the information about Gough's statement above I think "Hugh Gough (a professor at University College Dublin) considers that Secher book is an attempt at historical revisionism but that it is unlikely to have any lasting impact," conveys the same meaning as "Nevertheless, the great majority of authorities on modern French history have have rejected the characterization of genocide", but does so in a way that does not violate WP:SYN and Claims of consensus. Similarly I think breaking out the McPhee analysis and mentioning him by name is a better match to Wikipedia policies and guidelines than the text that was based on his article and was in the article until this edit. Neither change in my opinion is a fundamental change to the wording that was in the article before this edit. (Infact I think my interpretation of McPhee is clumsy and could do with some fettling. -- PBS 20:26, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
If you wish to put in such a clear statement then you have to have a source you can cite that says it is a fringe view please read Claims of consensus. BTW what is historical revisionism if not a fringe view? -- PBS 08:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
In this case I personally would not use the term "fringe view" as fringe view has a non neutral point of view connotation. I would describe a fringe view as one were a single author has published views that are not supported by any other reliable sources. I would describe Secher's theory as a minority view as he has been cited by other academics and other academics have also stated that it is a genocide. But I would not add that statement to the page unless I could find a source that supports the statement as described in " Claims of consensus". In the past I might well have added such a statement but that was before the Wikipedia policies and guidelines were so fully developed in this area. Now that they are, I think that adding such a statement is in breach of the WP:SYN POLICY unless there is a cited source as described in the guideline Claims of consensus. -- PBS 11:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
How about "Hugh Gough considers Secher's book an attempt at historical revisionism that is unlikely to have any lasting impact," as that is complies with policy as indicated by the guideline Claims of consensus -- PBS 14:41, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Fine by me. Ledenierhomme, it seems to me that you appear to take a disagreement over content as an attack on you personally. I am not attacking you personally and I wish you would stop making what seem to me to be personal attacks as it makes it very difficult to work constructively with you. For example why did you not leave you last comment as "What about Langlois? The highest authority there is on the French Revolution?"? because if I did care about having the final say, and I was involved in a personal dual of the sort you seem to think I am engaged in, you would have boxed me into a corner where I would have to respond negatively because your wording does not allow for someone to respond positively. -- PBS 15:22, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Ledenierhomme I suggest you read some of the entries in Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct/Archive as you will see if in the future you are unlucky enough to be involved in a "requests for comment on user conduct" conduct from previous disputes can be used as a pattern indicator. I have no axe to grind with you. The reason for asking for a block was that you were in clear violation of the 3R rule (I did not block you myself because that could have been seen as a conflict of interest so I left it to a third party admin) During this dispute I have been trying to understand your concerns, and reach a compromise (as I do not hold a strong position over this issue one way or another this is easier for me to do than for some of the others who have edited this section), but the compromise has to be within Wikipedia policy. Your last adjustment to the sentence meets those policy requirements so I have no objections to the adjustment. -- PBS 17:36, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I would like to know why PBS censored any mention of the genocide of Slav population along with the references in this chapter and made it a lite version of a Holocaust article. This radical change was made on October 29 without any discussion and with clear bias. Edit: I can see someone corrected this vandalism done by PBS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.82.33.7 ( talk) 20:58, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
I've removed both these sections because the sources do not clearly and unambiguously charge the respective parties with genocide. Cesarani talks about "genocide" of "Native Americans" but it isn't clear that he's talking specifically about the natives of North America. The other source is of unknown reliability and doesn't specifically refer to genocide either.
I was originally only going to reduce the size of the Cromwell section on the basis of WP:UNDUE but when I looked further into the matter it was clear that the descriptions of massacres therein have not been described as genocide, nor do the two sources provided unambiguously state that Cromwell committed genocide. One says he engaged in "a conscious attempt to reduce an ethnic population" but it isn't clear whether the source is referring to a genocidal campaign or to Cromwell's policy of forcibly transferring part of the Catholic population to other parts of Ireland. The other source says Cromwell gave the population "a choice" between genocide or transfer, so again it isn't clear whether he's accusing Cromwell of actually committing genocide.
In any case the entire section clearly violated NPOV as Cromwell's campaign occurred in the middle of an extremely brutal ethnic conflict in which massacres occurred on both sides. Indeed Cromwell's campaign was seen as revenge for earlier atrocities committed by Catholics against Protestants, who were accused by the English Parliament of trying to exterminate the Protestants in Ireland. Gatoclass 13:25, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Is that you have continuously blanked all the sourced material I've enteered WITHOUT discussing it on this talk page up until now - Ledenierhomme
Yes, because the onus is on the editor adding new material to provide adequate sourcing for it. I invited you to discuss the matter on the talk page first, you didn't bother. I am not the one who had a meltdown the other day and engaged in mass reversion of others' edits, so you are scarcely in a position to accuse other editors of bad behaviour.
I gained consenus from at least two neutrals - you and PBS gained no consensus, and succeeded in removing my material simply by weight of numbers, a.k.a. "mob rule" - Ledenierhomme.
First of all - no you didn't gain any consensus from "two neutrals". I only saw one other editor participate in that discussion, but he was advancing views of his own rather than giving support to yours. And it's clear that no consensus was reached in that discussion.
Secondly, I didn't engage in "mob rule" by "weight of numbers" with anyone. I reverted one edit of yours in the Tibet section. I then reverted two more edits of yours, one on Cromwell and one on the US, that were apparently made in the spirit of WP:POINT and which in my view failed WP:RS, WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. So there was no "mob rule", just one intemperate user carrying on several different edit wars at the same time. And BTW if several editors are reverting you, perhaps it's time for you to stop and consider that you are the one violating consensus.
Finally I find it unfortunate that you decided to return to the page and immediately resume "business as usual" by restoring sections without prior discussion that you knew were disputed by other editors. This is hardly an act calculated to foster goodwill, and it doesn't speak well of your readiness to engage constructively. So maybe it's time you stepped back and took an objective look at your own behaviour at this page, rather than throwing around assorted accusations at everyone else. Regards, Gatoclass 15:36, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
The use of Ireland as an example is highly questionable given the findings of the ICJ on a wider Bosnian Genocide and the more recent ECHR Jorgic v. Germany on 12 July 2007 ruling quoting the ICJ. "It [i.e. ethnic cleansing] can only be a form of genocide within the meaning of the Convention, if it corresponds to or falls within one of the categories of acts prohibited by Article II of the Convention. Neither the intent, as a matter of policy, to render an area “ethnically homogeneous”, nor the operations that may be carried out to implement such policy, can as such be designated as genocide:" -- PBS 14:58, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Ledenierhomme you wrote above:
Is it your intention to turn this article into a farce, or have you changed you mind over these entries? -- PBS 14:58, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
The reasons why could not be placed on the article page, because it would be WP:SYN. But having said that I will place a synthesis here on the talk page. It seems that the people accusing Cromwell, (how people like to accuse one man because it is so much more simple than proportioning blame among the cabal that were then ruling England), of genocide are primarily accusing him of ethnic cleansing. Which after the ICTY judged that the 1995 Srebrenica massacre was genocide and before the ICJ ruling in the Bosnian Genocide Case in February 2007, was the way that things seemed to be moving. And it is very noticeable that all the citations for Cromwell's ethnic cleansing in the article fall between those dates. However if one reads the ICJ ruling (Here is "lite" version -- the ICJ press release on the case) and the summary of it given by the ECHR (a fuller quote is available in the Bosnian Genocide Case) the ICJ has moved to a stricter definition of genocide which must include intent to destroy and the physical destruction (not 'just' removal) of a protected group. -- PBS 17:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Folks,
This article is hurtling towards protection if the edit wars continue. Please remember to keep within the [[WP:3RR|three-revert rule]. Stifle ( talk) 20:21, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
user:Gatoclass in Revision as of 14:34, 9 November 2007 you wrote "War of the Three Kingdoms - Still POV as it fails to adequately contextualize the violence" what context would you like added to the section? -- PBS 09:57, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
As I said before, I have no objection whatever in principle to a separate section on the United States. I have deleted this section not because I'm a "nationalist troll" as some uncivil editor speculated in his edit summary, but because apart from the peripheral reference from Stannard, there is nothing there which specifically pertains to genocide by the United States. Instead, the content is focussed on a lurid quote from some long out-of-print author of dubious reliability describing brutality toward the Cherokee. There are no such quotes in any other section, except where they are strictly necessary for contextualization, and nowhere in this particular quote is there a mention of genocide.
Furthermore, Stannard, the only author who mentions the US in the section, is a controversial scholar whose work has been heavily criticized by other academics, and yet there is no balancing quote from his detractors in the section. So I'm afraid this section has no redeeming qualities at all. And neither was it meant to have. It was added by user Ledenierhomme purely to make a WP:POINT as his edit summary indicated.
So for those editors who think a section on the United States should be there, I say, fine, but please find some valid, relevant content from worthwhile sources and not this POV garbage please. Gatoclass 10:49, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
There's no reference to genocide in the "Trail of Tears" article, so until you find a source that specifically refers to this event as genocidal, I'm afraid it's not relevant.
The Cesarani quote addresses "native Americans" but that refers to natives of all the Americas, not just North America or the US. In which case its appropriate location is in the "Americas" section.
That just leaves the Stannard quote, which only references the United States in passing, without providing any detail about what genocidal campaigns specifically the US is supposed to have committed. So it's a very vague statement which scarcely justifies a separate section to itself. Apart from which, as I said above Stannard is a controversial scholar whose opinions should be balanced by those who reject his POV.
So again let me reiterate - I'm not in any way opposed in principle to a separate section on the US, it just needs to have solid sourcing and to conform with NPOV, that's all. I'm afraid the current version just doesn't meet those requirements. Gatoclass 23:40, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I am not a historian but it is common fact that during WW2 the Japanese army killed, tortured, raped and scientifically used many Asians. I do not know why it is not noted on Wikipedia and why no one has raised any comments about this. Almost all Asian history books – except for Japanese history books – record this genocide and many organizations are petitioning the Japanese government. Interestingly, I went to the genocide museum in Rwanda and found there was no record of the treacheries the Japanese military committed and was baffled, but then saw that the genocide museum was funded by the Japanese government. Anyway, I would appreciate if a historian who knows more about this would write about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.61.100.2 ( talk) 11:58, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Irish meteorologist Austin Bourke, in The use of the potato crop in pre-famine Ireland disputes some of Woodham-Smith's calculations, and notes that during December 1846 imports almost doubled. He opines that
“ it is beyond question that the deficiency arising from the loss of the potato crop in 1846 could not have been met by the simple expedient of prohibiting the export of grain from Ireland. ”
Two things on this: 1) A meteorologist, is noted for their work on famines? No I don't think so. 2) "during December 1846 imports almost doubled" what about the rest of the time? In addition, this refers to imports, and the quote refers to the export of grain. Totally different thing is it not? -- Domer48 ( talk) 11:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Austin Bourke was a meteorologist. He was involved in agricultural meteorology and was director of Met Eireann from 1965-1978, check their our history page if you want clarification. His thesis was entitled 'The Potato Blight, Weather and the Irish Famine' and he published several books concerning the subject,The visitation of god'? : the potato and the great Irish famine being one of the more famous.It seems a bit weird all right but when you consider Phytophthora infestans or potato blight is a water mold meteorology doesnt seem too far off topic. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
134.226.1.194 (
talk)
23:42, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
I realise that this article is an ongoing work, but it would definitely not be complete without mentioning the "alleged" genocide of Jews by the Roman Empire in the section titled "Timeline of genocides and alleged genocides" One only has to look at the works of Titus Flavius Josephus and Lucius Claudius Cassius Dio to realise that not only was the Roman Empire at war with Jews for the most part but also that the Roman Generals were quite indiscriminate in terms of targeting military units and civilians. I only have one online source that puts this "allegation" forward but since the word "alleged genocides" is in the title of the section concerned I think it would fit right in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GreyMech ( talk • contribs) 05:36, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Verifiable reliable source:
HIR Historical and Investigative Research The Crux of WORLD HISTORY by Francisco Gil-White http://www.hirhome.com/israel/cruxcontents.htm
Volume 1: The Book of Genesis The Birth of the Jewish People
Part 1: Chapter 1: The Roman ‘Final Solution’ in the first and second centuries; why it happened, and why you never heard about it. http://www.hirhome.com/israel/crux01.pdf
A quote from the first paragraph of the first chapter.
"This first chapter does not deal with Jewish origins, and neither does it deal with the prelude to Jewish origins, but rather with a discussion of the Roman genocide of the Jews in the first and second centuries, and why it happened."
I would assume that this source is reliable enough to be cited as a reference or quoted from in a section called "Timeline of genocides and alleged genocides". —Preceding unsigned comment added by GreyMech ( talk • contribs) 09:29, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Here are my other sources, each of these sources explicitly state that genocide occurred. 1.The First Jewish Revolt: Archaeology,History and Ideology By Andrea M.Berlin, J.Andrew Overman - ISBN 0415257069 Page 237 2.The Cambridge Ancient History By Iorwerth Eiddon Stephen Edwards - ISBN 0521263352 Page 379 3.Teaching About Genocide: Issues,Approaches and Resources by Samuel Totten - ISBN 159311074X Page 24 GreyMech ( talk) 11:23, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Might as well add the Great Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah and other instances for the sake of completeness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.117.244.15 ( talk) 07:28, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
There is all ready a source that has been referenced in this article.
Adam Jones, Genocide: A Comprehensive Introduction, Chapter 1: Genocide in prehistory, antiquity, and early modernity
A quote from the fourth or fifth paragraph of the first chapter
"The trend starts early on, in the Book of Genesis (6: 17–19), where God decides “to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life from under heaven,” with the exception of Noah and a nucleus of human and animal life."
I guess one would have to read the whole paragraph to put the above quote in some kind of context, but Adam Jones does indeed allude to the Great Flood / Noah´s Flood.
Yehuda Bauer: "As a Jew, I must live with the fact that the civilization I inherited . . . encompasses the call for genocide in its canon."
I´m not sure of the context in which Yehuda Bauer was writing or saying this, but I´m pretty sure he is referring to the whole of the Hebrew Bible (Tanach). —Preceding unsigned comment added by GreyMech ( talk • contribs) 09:48, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I understand your point about the wiki policy. About that quote you cited, I suppose you mentioned it because of the uncertainty surrounding it´s origin, to emphasize your point. Right? One more thing, I don´t see the the sense in using the term "Old Testament" in a sentence and then citing the quote from Yehuda Bauer in the next sentence, the civilization he inherited does not call their canon(nor is it identical to) the Old Testament. GreyMech ( talk) 11:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
What about the Congo Free State? It may not be considered genocide to some, but it was state sponsored murder against a race of people. Chewrockan ( talk) 01:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Why delete the description of Tom Reilly when most other authors are described on the page? Does someone not like the facts? Hughsheehy ( talk) 15:22, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
<reduce indent> The Royal ref (page 550) that you mentioned only talks about the outcome of the sieges at Drogheda and Wexford. These incidents are not particularly relevant when discussing whether there was a "genocide" or not. Further, the Bosnia case judgement only said that ethnic cleansing doesn't automatically equate to genocide not that it can't, and in any case a legalistic definition and the common meaning of the term don't necessarily always agree. As for entering into these arguments, that's not my place or yours. All we can do is accurately reference published material. Hughsheehy ( talk) 09:50, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I wanted to ask you if someone knows why there is no mention of the Islamic invasions of India in the Genocides in history page? Will Durant said in the famous quote that it was probably the bloodiest story in history. Is the problem that nobody has made the effort yet, or because it was removed? Librorum Prohibitorum ( talk) 04:04, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
User:Editingman I have copied your entry for Chima from the article page for further discussion:
During the mid-nineteenth century, the Muslims and the Miao people of China revolted against the Qing Dynasty, most notably in the Dungan revolt (1862-1877) and the Panthay rebellion 1856-1873) in Yunnan. These little known revolts were suppressed by the Manchu government in a manner that accounts to genocide,(Levene, Mark. Genocide in the Age of the Nation-State. I.B.Tauris, 2005. ISBN 1845110579)(Giersch, Charles Patterson. Asian Borderlands: The Transformation of Qing China's Yunnan Frontier. Harvard University Press, 2006. ISBN 1845110579)( Muslim History in China)(Ridwan Khan The challenges and opportunities of Chinese Islam cites Dillon, Michael. China’s Muslim Hui Community. Curzon, 1999. ISBN 0700710264) killing a million people in the Panthay rebellion(Damsan Harper, Steve Fallon, Katja Gaskell, Julie Grundvig, Carolyn Heller, Thomas Huhti, Bradley Maynew, Christopher Pitts. Lonely Planet China. 9. 2005. ISBN 1740596870)(ref name=chineseciv: Gernet, Jacques. A History of Chinese Civilization. 2. New York: Cambridge University Press, 1996. ISBN 0521497124), several million in the Dungan revolt(name=chineseciv) and five million in the suppression of Miao people in Guizhou.( name=chineseciv) A " washing off the Muslims"(洗回 (xi Hui)) policy had been long advocated by officials in the Manchu government.(Jonathan N. Lipman, "Familiar Strangers: A History of Muslims in Northwest China (Studies on Ethnic Groups in China)", University of Washington Press (February 1998), ISBN 0295976446.)
Please see WP:CITE#Full references: "Full references for books typically include: the name of the author, the title of the book or article, the date of publication, and page numbers. The name of the publisher, city of publication, and ISBN are optional." The reference given do not include page numbers so are not adequate. Please can you supply page numbers for the books cited.
Please see WP:PROVEIT Looking east: The challenges and opportunities of Chinese Islam by Ridwan Khan is an essay and therefore not a reliable source. This is probably also true for the other web page cited Muslim History in China can you explain why you consider it a reliable source. -- PBS ( talk) 20:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
In his book Death by Government, Professor R.J. Rummel argues that "a full scale genocide was carried out in the Vendée in which possibly 117,000 inhabitants were systematically murdered." [dubious – discuss]
Ledenierhomme What is dubious about the statement? It is not a statement of fact or are you saying that the Rummel is dubious source? -- PBS ( talk) 10:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
So you are not disputing that the statement is verifiable and an accurate reflection of the text from which the the Wikipedia sentence is derived, you are disputing that R.J. Rummel is a reliable source. The text was added by C.J. Griffin lets ask that editor's opinion. -- PBS ( talk) 18:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
C.J. Griffin, I encourage you to read all the sources cited in the section of this article, before drawing any conclusions as to which sources and statements are plausible or dubious. If your main resource is the internet, well, that's a shame, but at least read Gough's article (which is available online) and look into who some of the authorities mentioned are, before you quote a rather irrelevant book by Rummel, who is not an expert on this subject and who admits his information is second-hand. FYI, Ladouce (another Catholic Christian) is not the source of the 117,000 figure, Secher is - in which case the quote from Rummel is third-hand, and only demonstrates that he is not a reliable source for this subject (the War in the Vendee). Rummel may well be a respected academic, but his credentials are irrelevant as far as this article is concerned. Would you refer to Stephen Hawking in an article on the Yellow Turban Rebellion?
The article as it stands is already too long, and does a gross disservice to the subject matter as it in essence, places the words of polemicists (in most cases self-published in all but name) on an equal footing with established authorities who are specialists/experts on the subjects and have been published in peer-reviewed journals.
Unfortunately there seems to be no shortage of anti-French racists and bigots looking to point score over something as serious as genocide, and mob rule has ensured that Secher's polemics remain intact. - Ledenierhomme ( talk) 18:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Both of these countries' alleged genocides are under the heading of International Prosecution of Genocide rather than in the main list of alleged genocides. This seems wrong, but as a reader who came here to just to read the article, I would rather leave this edit up to someone more involved in this page. The heading "International Criminal Court" seems to have no text under it that relates to the heading. Has something gone missing? -- CloudSurfer ( talk) 17:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
" Turks claim that since no country recognizes this behavior as genocide (well over 1 million Turks were killed in such a way between 1870 and the end of World War II), it is absurd to call what happened to the Armenians in Anatolia (with similar proportions) genocide, and that the genocide claim is just being used against the losing side in the First World War." All purportedly being reference by The Ghost of Freedom: A History of the Caucasus by Charles King. This edit needs a page number for verifiability.
Another common claim made by not only Turks, but also other peoples of the region, is that the actions of Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro and Greece during the First Balkan War (against Albanians and Turks, as well as other peoples of the region)and of the same list minus Bulgaria during the Second (against Bulgarians) constituted genocide, especially those by the Serbs against Albanians and Turks in Kosovo and Macedonia. --Glenny, Misha. "The Balkans", needs a page number as well. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 02:15, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
Why aren't the Iraqi sanctions listed here? Isn't it the case that two UN Assistant SG's, Dennis Halliday and Hans von Sponeck, both resigned from their positions and denounced the sanctions as "genocide"? Gatoclass 21:14, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
This incident, in which the Japanese Army in 1937 was released on the Chinese city of Nanking and directed to annihilate 300,000 Chinese civilians over the period of a few weeks, is considered a genocide. See Nanking Massacre article for sources. Jimhoward72 14:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I believe the entire holocaust of the Asians by the japanese, from the late 1800s to 1945, including the Koreans, Chinese and Southeast Asians should be mentioned. Or at least a link to japanese war crimes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.66.184.238 ( talk) 17:30, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
From the edit history of the article:
See archives Talk:Genocides in history/Archive 1#Kashmir, Talk:Genocides in history/Archive 2#Kashmir -- PBS 12:03, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I find that the photo depecting a "racial cleansing" in action with a Pak army checking the private parts of a Bengali has been removed. Is there any particular reason why it was removed by PBS? Thanks.-- Idleguy 02:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
The picture was removed with this comment in the history:
I have no opinion on the photo. -- PBS 16:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of the +100 million Native Americans that were killed by the Europeans? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Asach ( talk • contribs) 14:27, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
why aren't there any statements about his genocide in canaan? YODAFON 06:33, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
The genocide in Hispanola is mentioned but I find the figure of eight million to be highly questionable. I do not believe this island was capable of supporting such a large population to begin with. While I do agree with the contention that Columbus exterminated virtually the entire population, I think this figure needs to be revised. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.215.57.156 ( talk) 07:20, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
This section seems awfully long for a subject that most scholars do not consider to have been a genocide. I know it was previously deleted altogether, which would be acceptable to me, but I know some editors think it should be included. I suggest it be reduced to two modest paragraphs at most. All the info about the deaths by disease seems superfluous (a simple statement that most of the deaths were by disease and a cite or two should be enough). Mamalujo 18:42, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I added this paragraph under "Americas" but it was removed:
Slave Trade
The human toll resulting from the Atlantic slave trade (which includes the conflicts and forced procurement of slaves in Africa and deaths resulting from the trip also known as the Middle Passage is estimated at between 8 and 16 million people.
I am wondering why it was removed? While some may see the loss of slaves as as "losses in inventory" others view it as a holocaust. I am quoting from the wikipedia article Atlantic slave trade: "The slave-trade is sometimes called the Maafa by African and African-American scholars, meaning "holocaust" or "great disaster" in Swahili."
Because of the number of trips over a number of decades one could say that the traders expected and planned for the losses of life they incurred. While it wasn't intentional extermination (the slaves were part of a business venture after all) one must say that the losses, if they weren't expected on the very first trip across, were factored into the "costs" of later trips. If the traders were willing to accept the costs of millions of deaths... I think that counts as a genocide. 71.252.124.129 23:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)Mark Cimino 7:50 PM Oct 11, 2007
But slaves were exterminated on purpose. When they were deemed useless they were killed. and millions died that way. What is Genocide?
(a) Killing members of the group
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
The slave trade is this. It complied to nearly all of the UN's definition.
-- Vehgah ( talk) 20:01, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
David Hiskiyahu, 12-Oct-2007 ----
This is a bad sentence: ' .. upwards of 11 million people (excluding Jews) were systematically "exterminated" (a Nazi term) by the Nazis and their collaborators during the Holocaust, of which over 10 millions were Slavs.[45] ..'
One may think that 10 million of collaborators were Slavs, while the intention of the article is to say that 10 million out of 11 million people killed, in this given context, were Slavs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.207.101.112 ( talk) 11:52, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I have moved this section here because neither the main article or this text has any sources -- let alone a reliable source -- claiming that this was a genocide. Several sentences have had {{ fact}} on them since June and there is a quote without a citation (see WP:POINT) -- PBS 08:34, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
( 1941 - 1945) Genocide against Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia. The Croatian Ustasha regime committed genocide against Serbs, Jews and Roma (Gypsies) during World War II. They also mass murdered other political opponents.
After the invasion and destruction of the Yugoslav army by the Axis Powers in 1941, they supported the creation of the Independent State of Croatia (NDH) which was run by the Croatian fascist group the Ustaše. The leader of this state Ante Pavelić put into effect a campaign of persecution and genocide against the Serbs, Jews and Roma.
This policy was set out by Mile Budak, the Minister for Education & Culture who in his speech of 22 July 1941, said that:
The basis for the Ustashe movement is religion. For minorities such as the Serbs, Jews, and Gypsies, we have three million bullets. We will kill a part of the Serbs. Others we will deport, and the rest we will force to accept the Roman Catholic Religion. Thus the new Croatia will be rid of all Serbs in its midst in order to be 100% Catholic within 10 years.
The Independent State of Croatia was the only state created by the Axis Powers that ran its own concentration camps independently of Nazi direction, the largest being the Jasenovac concentration camp.
The number of people killed, deported and converted by the Croat Ustashe between 1941-1945 could be more than 1 000 000. citation needed. See Ustaše#Victims and Jasenovac concentration camp for details. According to the Simon Wiesenthal Center (citing the Encyclopaedia of the Holocaust): "Ustasa terrorists killed 500,000 Serbs, expelled 250,000 and forced 250,000 to convert to Catholicism. They murdered thousands of Jews and Gypsies." citation needed
This Serbian Genocide resulted in elimination of the presence of Serbian people in a large section of Croatia and Bosnia. Independent State of Croatia]] (NDH) occupied a large section of Bosnia and Hercegovina and Serbia/Srem and massacred hundreds of thousands of Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Serbia.
The article currently states that the Independent State of Croatia "ruled the part of Yugoslavia that was occupied by the Axis Powers during World War II". Is this really correct? If thought Serbia, at least part of the time, was under German occupation and that other parts were under Italian/Albanian influence/control. If so, we should change the text. Osli73 09:50, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Since the numbers killed is so uncertain and controversial I agree that the article should cite a range. However, it appears that academics have been able to pinpoint a tighter range than that cited in the article. This from United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's site:
Due to differing views and lack of documentation, estimates for the number of Serbian victims in Croatia range widely, from 25,000 to more than one million. The estimated number of Serbs killed in Jasenovac ranges from 25,000 to 700,000. The most reliable figures place the number of Serbs killed by the Ustaša between 330,000 and 390,000, with 45,000 to 52,000 Serbs murdered in Jasenovac.
Germans and Ustaša killed approximately 32,000 Jews from Croatia between 1941 and 1945. The precise number of Jews murdered in the Jasenovac complex is not known, but estimates range from 8,000 to 20,000 victims. These numbers do not include Jews whom the Ustaša authorities turned over to the Germans for deportation to Auschwitz and other camps.
Statistics for Romani victims are difficult to assess, as there are no firm estimates of their number in prewar Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. The best estimates calculate the number of Romani victims at about 26,000, of whom between 8,000 and 15,000 perished in Jasenovac.
There are only loose estimates for the number of Croats murdered by the Ustaša. This group included political and religious opponents of the regime, both Catholic and Muslim. Between 5,000 and 12,000 Croats are believed to have died in Jasenovac. There are no reliable statistics on the number of Muslim victims.
From this maybe we should state a range of 393,000-434,000 killed, with the vast majority being Serbs. I think a table is always helpful. That would also make it easier to present different estimates and ranges next to each other. How about that Osli73 10:06, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following recent addition stating in the edit history that the source does not use the word genocide:
A recent (as of August 2007) book by Amaresh Misra estimates that the number of people murdered by the British in retaliation for the Indian Rebellion of 1857 was 10 million. His calculations are based on triangulation of several different sets of records. If Misra's estimate is proved correct, this was the greatest genocide in history, worse than the Holocaust or Stalin's purges. Other historians have questioned these figures suggesting that the total includes refugees (as the figures are based on regional depopulation figures) and famine (a not uncommon occurrence in India at the time).(Guardian August 24, 2007 India's secret history: a holocaust)
However I am aware that some might argue that holocaust and genocide are interchangeable and that the Guardian use the word holocaust. But there are several other points on this particular entry:
-- PBS 09:59, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand why somebody claims following "In legal terms, the word "genocide" may not be appropriate, because there was no proven intent to destroy a specific national, ethnic, racial or religious group."
The good example is Soviet extermination of Poles 1937-1938. We have documented the whole operation directed for the ethnic group selected due to nationality. We have documented number of victims. What else is needed to remove this false statement?? Cautious 09:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
1. I don't understand why this criteria is not used in the discussing article regarding other alleged genocides. Why it should be applied only in case of Polish peasants decimated by NKVD and not in other cases? 2. Please apply above criteria to specific case of Polish minority in USSR.
Cautious 11:56, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Polish state officialy considers Katyn Massacre to be a Soviet genocide, just for the record. If needed I can find references.-- Molobo 01:55, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
We seem to have missed the primitive genocides. ex. The Erie tribe of the Americas was exterminated by their fellow American Indians so recently we have the written records from Western observers. Just noting there is a LONG way to go to make this an acceptable page. 67.161.166.20 22:45, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
The contention that the suppression of the Revolt in the Vendée constituted a case of genocide is a marginal one, indeed it only has several published supporters in the whole academic world, and the expert/scholarly consensus is that it was not a case of genocide. Therefore I propose that the section be removed wholesale, and the content transferred to the appropriate article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolt_in_the_Vend%C3%A9e#Claims_of_genocide (I have already copied and pasted much of the content to the latter article).
With regards to the case of Napolean and Haiti, although very controversial in itself (and having only one published, highly polemical source), I don't object to keeping it in the article per se - although there is a question of weighting, and whether this incident should stand on the same foot as the other sections on instances of genocide. I perhaps think it should be kept, but an appropriatethe title, such as "Napolean and Haiti" or something similar...
Please comment. Ledenierhomme 10:35, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
RfC Comment - from my initial inspection into this, the high death toll seems to be, largely, a result of warfare. please state arguments made for the genocide claims (and who supports/rejects them). Jaakobou Chalk Talk 14:21, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
For similar reasons. To create sections on cases where certain governments or regimes are simply accused of committing genocide, in an article entitled "Genocides in history", I think is both dishonest and dangerous. Ledenierhomme 09:40, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I made a mistake. I intented to post in the former section. There is an article on wp:fr that talks about this matter (Vendean repression) and they give 3 historians that seem reliable. I asked the editor who wrote this article to give their mind about their reliability or if this is just a "controverse". (I say this just for information - that could help). Well, a good criteria could be :
What do you think about that ? Alithien 19:43, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Alithien if we were to implement such a policy where are the Wikipedia policies to back it up? -- PBS 08:25, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Since when is it appropriate to identify the religion of historians cited in encyclopedia articles? Do we identify elsewhere "Soandso, Baptist historian", "Soandso, Orthodox Jewish historian" or "Soandso, atheist historian". It is just not appropriate it is an attempt to discredit the historian's work not based on the work but on an ad hominem and, that being the case, it is impermissable POV. I am removing it. Mamalujo 22:46, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi/Salut
writing "Mr X, this very biased historian" is of course pov-ed and not acceptable.
Alithien
16:43, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I haven't seen from the above discussion any argument that refutes my position that references to the scholar's politics and religion are POV. As such, I'm deleting the references, again. Please address these issues before adding the info again. Mamalujo 17:16, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Unless backed up with a citation "great majority of authorities" are weasel words and WP:SYN. Ledenierhomme if you want to say it find another way to do it or find a source to back up the statement. -- PBS 08:04, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
If it is self evident -- and I think it is -- then it does not need stating explicitly ( Let the facts speak for themselves). If it is explicitly stated that the "great majority of authorities" then it needs a source otherwise it is in breach of WP:SYN.
Also please note that WP:V says "In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. As a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the evidence and arguments of a particular work, the more reliable it is." Are you sure that the two books you are dismissing (published by Routledge and Transaction Publishers are not from "respected publishing houses"?
The other authors who cite Secher or support his views, may well be of the same political views, but that does not invalidate their publishing or that fact being mentioned in this section. The reason for this is because if Secher was the only person to have made the claim then his views could excluded under WP:Undue weight. But once more authors/scholars start to cite his work, he may still be in a minority but his views should be represented to create a balanced POV even if the majority expert view is that he is not correct. (see Neutrality and verifiability and Fairness of tone)
Please understand that you and I are on the same side, to understand my take on this please consider Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial, Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles as well as the sections in the NPOV mentioned above). An interesting way to approach this is to consider as an intellectual exercise how you would debate the issue at a debating society debate not with your point of view, but that of a point of view that you disagree with. (see Wikipedia:Writing for the enemy)
There is also a practical reason for presenting both POVs for disputes like this in as unbiased way as possible, because if they are not handled in a fair and unbiased way, one is doomed to fight the same arguments on the talk page every few months. Just have a look how often deleted paragraphs are re-inserted into this article by different people. By presenting a section from a NPOV then it is possible to keep the POV disputes to a minimum and for those disputes to revolve around specific details in how to implement any changes within existing policies and guidelines. -- PBS 12:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
In a recent edit in the France section I deleted an unsourced reference to Adam Jones and others as "non-expert, non-authoritative authors". One problem with unsourced statements of this kind is that they are not verifiable. Sometimes, even when partly true, they are misleading. Other times they are completely contrary to the facts. That is the case here. To demonstrate, I've included the bio of Jones from the book referenced: "Adam Jones, Ph.D., is Associate Professor of Political Science at the University of British Columbia Okanagan. Prior to that, he was Research Fellow for 2005-07 in the Genocide Studies Program at Yale University, and taught for five years at the CIDE research institute in Mexico City. He is editor of two books on genocide: Gendercide and Genocide (Vanderbilt University Press, 2004) and Genocide, War Crimes & the West (Zed Books, 2004). He has also published two books on the mass media and political transition. His scholarly articles have appeared in Review of International Studies, Ethnic and Racial Studies, Journal of Genocide Research, Journal of Human Rights, and other publications. He is executive director of Gendercide Watch, a web-based educational initiative that confronts gender-selective atrocities against men and women worldwide." Perusal of scholarly reviews of the subject book and other work by Jones shows exactly how false the unsourced posting regaring his work was.
The Vendee is not universally recognized as genocide. Jones says as much in his book, and others who consider it genocide admit that. But attempts to cast it a a fringe view or a discredited theory advanced only by dilettantes are wrong. Mamalujo 18:34, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
(out-dent)Are you suggesting that only current alleged genocides are the province of genocide studies? Do you not consider that past genocides and alleged genocides my also be part of their area of expertise? -- PBS 21:46, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest, rather that edit warring, the editors work for a consensus version on the France section. I am glad to have sourced criticism which accurately reflects the critiques of those who deny the Vendee as genocide. I think the section should be shortened, especially in light of the limited acceptance, but it should be complete. An extensive listing of the names and the institutions of the scholars who deny the Vendee's status is a waste of space. It is sufficient to say that the thesis was a relatively recently conceived break with the traditional historiography and that many scholars vehemently deny the clasification as genocide (certainly all the cites to the several works can remain). If there are reliable and recent (as acceptance of the classification appears to be growing) cites to the degree of acceptance among genocide scholars, there is no reason why that shouldn't be included either. If a survey of the International Association of Genocide Scholars or the International Network of Genocide Scholars indicates that most don't accept it, fine. Or if a noted scholar, preferably an advocate for the classification, recently admited that most don't accept it, fine. If necessary I will try to draft a short but complete entry, which I believe would be acceptable to all editors and which well notes the limited acceptance and the criticisms. If someone else feels up to the task, all the better. Mamalujo 01:49, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
The France section originally began with Secher's charge, then clumsily digressed into a description of the event itself, then presented pro- and anti- views in a choppy fashion. I reorganized it in order to present the material in a more logical sequence - description of the event first, followed by Secher's charge and those who support his views, followed in turn by those who refute him. Ledenierhomme reverted with the edit summary that I should discuss these changes first. Since I've now explained my reasons for these changes, I've reverted back.
Ledenierhomme also reinserted statements about the black revolt leader Dessalines which are contradicted by their own sources (sources which are clearly substandard in any case). Apart from which, Dessalines' actions are completely irrelevant to the topic of this page. So I have again removed this material. Gatoclass 01:56, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
User: PBS, I have advised you already not to edit an article which you have clearly demonstrated a profound lack of knowledge on (wrong spelling, mainstream opinion, scholarship and peer-review, historiography etc). I don't see why you feel compelled to contradict every single edit I make, and demand a source for virtually every sentence, but here goes...
1) It is self-evident that it does not fit the traditional/conventional definition of genocide as both Republicans and Royalists were/are of the same ethnicity, culture and religion. You do know that don't you?
2) There clearly is a traditional/conventional tradition of genocide. The term was coined in 1944 to describe the unparalleled horrors of the Holocaust. The definition presented by Lemkin was accepted and repeated throughout the Western world, and was adopted by the United Nations in a special convention in 1948 - it remains so expressed in the UN to this day, and remains the most commonly understood meaning of the term. According to the Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions, it was not until 1959 that someone, Peter Drost (whoever he is), presented a broader definition. Many broader definitions have been presented since, but none of them have been admitted to national or international law, or become dominant in either layperson or academic understanding (or any respected dictionaries or encyclopedias). You've mentioned that you value international jurist/court decisions on the subject of genocide - have you ever known a court to rule a genocide has occurred under one of these broader definitions? Of course not, as virtually every nation-state who has fought a "one-sided" war would be guilty - including all permanent members of the UN security council.
It is obviously quite ridiculous to provide a source for the fact that the Royalist Vendeans were/are of the same ethnic, religious and cultural make-up as the Republican Vendeans and the rest of France, but I'm going to reference McPhee (4th paragraph) just to stop you edit warring, for whatever reason you have for doing so (the mind boggles). - Ledenierhomme 06:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
There is no point to get. If you want to say the "prevailing view in the relevant academic community" then you need a source that says it otherwise it is WP:SYN. The source you have given to date does not support the statement. To give you a simple example. In Football (word) it is self evident that most English speakers mean American Football when they say "football" but unless a source can be found that states that this is true it is WP:SYN to write so in Wikipedia, hence the article says "There are 215 million people who speak English as a first language in the United States,[1] out of 309-380 million native speakers worldwide.[2][3] One consequence of this is that most people who speak English as a first language refer to Association football as "soccer".[4]" because that has a source. What you are doing here is saying I know it is true because I have read lots of articles on the subject. But that is not sufficient for inclusion in Wikipedia, and it is not up to me to refute the statement it is up to you to produce a source to support the statements or we need to re-write the sentences so that they do not fall foul of WP:SYN which for those who do not want to follow a link says "Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research." In this case you are saying "EVERY authority that has published on Secher's claims has rejected them [(I know because I have read all of them)]" so I can write "prevailing view in the relevant academic community" but that is original research. -- PBS 18:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes I read you post. You make a fair point in this last paragraph, but as I said before we need to rephrase the sentences if they are not to fall foul of WP:SYN (and for that matter when looking at WP:RS guideline see the section Claims of consensus: "Claims of consensus must be sourced. The claim that all or most scientists, scholars, or ministers hold a certain view requires a reliable source. Without it, opinions should be identified as those of particular, named sources.". The difference is that one person claiming a fact is not the same as extrapolating a general truth (as is implied using the passive narrative voice). Also I think you are hanging too heavier coat on the peg of scholarship as in this case the author is quoted by other sources and as such is not a lone voice crying in the wilderness. -- PBS 12:52, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
The changes I have made to the France section are to integrate three paragraphs into two -- one for and one against. I have altered some of the references which were are English language sources from French into English. I have removed the nationality of the scholars mentioned in the paragraphs as in MHO they are not needed, and the nationality of the scholars were not taken from sources, (To paraphrase Wellington "Just because one works in a stable, it doesn't make one a horse").. I have also removed the Claims of consensus by doing as the advise in that guideline section suggests: "opinions should be identified as those of particular, named sources".
Given the information about Gough's statement above I think "Hugh Gough (a professor at University College Dublin) considers that Secher book is an attempt at historical revisionism but that it is unlikely to have any lasting impact," conveys the same meaning as "Nevertheless, the great majority of authorities on modern French history have have rejected the characterization of genocide", but does so in a way that does not violate WP:SYN and Claims of consensus. Similarly I think breaking out the McPhee analysis and mentioning him by name is a better match to Wikipedia policies and guidelines than the text that was based on his article and was in the article until this edit. Neither change in my opinion is a fundamental change to the wording that was in the article before this edit. (Infact I think my interpretation of McPhee is clumsy and could do with some fettling. -- PBS 20:26, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
If you wish to put in such a clear statement then you have to have a source you can cite that says it is a fringe view please read Claims of consensus. BTW what is historical revisionism if not a fringe view? -- PBS 08:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
In this case I personally would not use the term "fringe view" as fringe view has a non neutral point of view connotation. I would describe a fringe view as one were a single author has published views that are not supported by any other reliable sources. I would describe Secher's theory as a minority view as he has been cited by other academics and other academics have also stated that it is a genocide. But I would not add that statement to the page unless I could find a source that supports the statement as described in " Claims of consensus". In the past I might well have added such a statement but that was before the Wikipedia policies and guidelines were so fully developed in this area. Now that they are, I think that adding such a statement is in breach of the WP:SYN POLICY unless there is a cited source as described in the guideline Claims of consensus. -- PBS 11:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
How about "Hugh Gough considers Secher's book an attempt at historical revisionism that is unlikely to have any lasting impact," as that is complies with policy as indicated by the guideline Claims of consensus -- PBS 14:41, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Fine by me. Ledenierhomme, it seems to me that you appear to take a disagreement over content as an attack on you personally. I am not attacking you personally and I wish you would stop making what seem to me to be personal attacks as it makes it very difficult to work constructively with you. For example why did you not leave you last comment as "What about Langlois? The highest authority there is on the French Revolution?"? because if I did care about having the final say, and I was involved in a personal dual of the sort you seem to think I am engaged in, you would have boxed me into a corner where I would have to respond negatively because your wording does not allow for someone to respond positively. -- PBS 15:22, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Ledenierhomme I suggest you read some of the entries in Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct/Archive as you will see if in the future you are unlucky enough to be involved in a "requests for comment on user conduct" conduct from previous disputes can be used as a pattern indicator. I have no axe to grind with you. The reason for asking for a block was that you were in clear violation of the 3R rule (I did not block you myself because that could have been seen as a conflict of interest so I left it to a third party admin) During this dispute I have been trying to understand your concerns, and reach a compromise (as I do not hold a strong position over this issue one way or another this is easier for me to do than for some of the others who have edited this section), but the compromise has to be within Wikipedia policy. Your last adjustment to the sentence meets those policy requirements so I have no objections to the adjustment. -- PBS 17:36, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I would like to know why PBS censored any mention of the genocide of Slav population along with the references in this chapter and made it a lite version of a Holocaust article. This radical change was made on October 29 without any discussion and with clear bias. Edit: I can see someone corrected this vandalism done by PBS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.82.33.7 ( talk) 20:58, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
I've removed both these sections because the sources do not clearly and unambiguously charge the respective parties with genocide. Cesarani talks about "genocide" of "Native Americans" but it isn't clear that he's talking specifically about the natives of North America. The other source is of unknown reliability and doesn't specifically refer to genocide either.
I was originally only going to reduce the size of the Cromwell section on the basis of WP:UNDUE but when I looked further into the matter it was clear that the descriptions of massacres therein have not been described as genocide, nor do the two sources provided unambiguously state that Cromwell committed genocide. One says he engaged in "a conscious attempt to reduce an ethnic population" but it isn't clear whether the source is referring to a genocidal campaign or to Cromwell's policy of forcibly transferring part of the Catholic population to other parts of Ireland. The other source says Cromwell gave the population "a choice" between genocide or transfer, so again it isn't clear whether he's accusing Cromwell of actually committing genocide.
In any case the entire section clearly violated NPOV as Cromwell's campaign occurred in the middle of an extremely brutal ethnic conflict in which massacres occurred on both sides. Indeed Cromwell's campaign was seen as revenge for earlier atrocities committed by Catholics against Protestants, who were accused by the English Parliament of trying to exterminate the Protestants in Ireland. Gatoclass 13:25, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Is that you have continuously blanked all the sourced material I've enteered WITHOUT discussing it on this talk page up until now - Ledenierhomme
Yes, because the onus is on the editor adding new material to provide adequate sourcing for it. I invited you to discuss the matter on the talk page first, you didn't bother. I am not the one who had a meltdown the other day and engaged in mass reversion of others' edits, so you are scarcely in a position to accuse other editors of bad behaviour.
I gained consenus from at least two neutrals - you and PBS gained no consensus, and succeeded in removing my material simply by weight of numbers, a.k.a. "mob rule" - Ledenierhomme.
First of all - no you didn't gain any consensus from "two neutrals". I only saw one other editor participate in that discussion, but he was advancing views of his own rather than giving support to yours. And it's clear that no consensus was reached in that discussion.
Secondly, I didn't engage in "mob rule" by "weight of numbers" with anyone. I reverted one edit of yours in the Tibet section. I then reverted two more edits of yours, one on Cromwell and one on the US, that were apparently made in the spirit of WP:POINT and which in my view failed WP:RS, WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. So there was no "mob rule", just one intemperate user carrying on several different edit wars at the same time. And BTW if several editors are reverting you, perhaps it's time for you to stop and consider that you are the one violating consensus.
Finally I find it unfortunate that you decided to return to the page and immediately resume "business as usual" by restoring sections without prior discussion that you knew were disputed by other editors. This is hardly an act calculated to foster goodwill, and it doesn't speak well of your readiness to engage constructively. So maybe it's time you stepped back and took an objective look at your own behaviour at this page, rather than throwing around assorted accusations at everyone else. Regards, Gatoclass 15:36, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
The use of Ireland as an example is highly questionable given the findings of the ICJ on a wider Bosnian Genocide and the more recent ECHR Jorgic v. Germany on 12 July 2007 ruling quoting the ICJ. "It [i.e. ethnic cleansing] can only be a form of genocide within the meaning of the Convention, if it corresponds to or falls within one of the categories of acts prohibited by Article II of the Convention. Neither the intent, as a matter of policy, to render an area “ethnically homogeneous”, nor the operations that may be carried out to implement such policy, can as such be designated as genocide:" -- PBS 14:58, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Ledenierhomme you wrote above:
Is it your intention to turn this article into a farce, or have you changed you mind over these entries? -- PBS 14:58, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
The reasons why could not be placed on the article page, because it would be WP:SYN. But having said that I will place a synthesis here on the talk page. It seems that the people accusing Cromwell, (how people like to accuse one man because it is so much more simple than proportioning blame among the cabal that were then ruling England), of genocide are primarily accusing him of ethnic cleansing. Which after the ICTY judged that the 1995 Srebrenica massacre was genocide and before the ICJ ruling in the Bosnian Genocide Case in February 2007, was the way that things seemed to be moving. And it is very noticeable that all the citations for Cromwell's ethnic cleansing in the article fall between those dates. However if one reads the ICJ ruling (Here is "lite" version -- the ICJ press release on the case) and the summary of it given by the ECHR (a fuller quote is available in the Bosnian Genocide Case) the ICJ has moved to a stricter definition of genocide which must include intent to destroy and the physical destruction (not 'just' removal) of a protected group. -- PBS 17:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Folks,
This article is hurtling towards protection if the edit wars continue. Please remember to keep within the [[WP:3RR|three-revert rule]. Stifle ( talk) 20:21, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
user:Gatoclass in Revision as of 14:34, 9 November 2007 you wrote "War of the Three Kingdoms - Still POV as it fails to adequately contextualize the violence" what context would you like added to the section? -- PBS 09:57, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
As I said before, I have no objection whatever in principle to a separate section on the United States. I have deleted this section not because I'm a "nationalist troll" as some uncivil editor speculated in his edit summary, but because apart from the peripheral reference from Stannard, there is nothing there which specifically pertains to genocide by the United States. Instead, the content is focussed on a lurid quote from some long out-of-print author of dubious reliability describing brutality toward the Cherokee. There are no such quotes in any other section, except where they are strictly necessary for contextualization, and nowhere in this particular quote is there a mention of genocide.
Furthermore, Stannard, the only author who mentions the US in the section, is a controversial scholar whose work has been heavily criticized by other academics, and yet there is no balancing quote from his detractors in the section. So I'm afraid this section has no redeeming qualities at all. And neither was it meant to have. It was added by user Ledenierhomme purely to make a WP:POINT as his edit summary indicated.
So for those editors who think a section on the United States should be there, I say, fine, but please find some valid, relevant content from worthwhile sources and not this POV garbage please. Gatoclass 10:49, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
There's no reference to genocide in the "Trail of Tears" article, so until you find a source that specifically refers to this event as genocidal, I'm afraid it's not relevant.
The Cesarani quote addresses "native Americans" but that refers to natives of all the Americas, not just North America or the US. In which case its appropriate location is in the "Americas" section.
That just leaves the Stannard quote, which only references the United States in passing, without providing any detail about what genocidal campaigns specifically the US is supposed to have committed. So it's a very vague statement which scarcely justifies a separate section to itself. Apart from which, as I said above Stannard is a controversial scholar whose opinions should be balanced by those who reject his POV.
So again let me reiterate - I'm not in any way opposed in principle to a separate section on the US, it just needs to have solid sourcing and to conform with NPOV, that's all. I'm afraid the current version just doesn't meet those requirements. Gatoclass 23:40, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I am not a historian but it is common fact that during WW2 the Japanese army killed, tortured, raped and scientifically used many Asians. I do not know why it is not noted on Wikipedia and why no one has raised any comments about this. Almost all Asian history books – except for Japanese history books – record this genocide and many organizations are petitioning the Japanese government. Interestingly, I went to the genocide museum in Rwanda and found there was no record of the treacheries the Japanese military committed and was baffled, but then saw that the genocide museum was funded by the Japanese government. Anyway, I would appreciate if a historian who knows more about this would write about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.61.100.2 ( talk) 11:58, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Irish meteorologist Austin Bourke, in The use of the potato crop in pre-famine Ireland disputes some of Woodham-Smith's calculations, and notes that during December 1846 imports almost doubled. He opines that
“ it is beyond question that the deficiency arising from the loss of the potato crop in 1846 could not have been met by the simple expedient of prohibiting the export of grain from Ireland. ”
Two things on this: 1) A meteorologist, is noted for their work on famines? No I don't think so. 2) "during December 1846 imports almost doubled" what about the rest of the time? In addition, this refers to imports, and the quote refers to the export of grain. Totally different thing is it not? -- Domer48 ( talk) 11:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Austin Bourke was a meteorologist. He was involved in agricultural meteorology and was director of Met Eireann from 1965-1978, check their our history page if you want clarification. His thesis was entitled 'The Potato Blight, Weather and the Irish Famine' and he published several books concerning the subject,The visitation of god'? : the potato and the great Irish famine being one of the more famous.It seems a bit weird all right but when you consider Phytophthora infestans or potato blight is a water mold meteorology doesnt seem too far off topic. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
134.226.1.194 (
talk)
23:42, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
I realise that this article is an ongoing work, but it would definitely not be complete without mentioning the "alleged" genocide of Jews by the Roman Empire in the section titled "Timeline of genocides and alleged genocides" One only has to look at the works of Titus Flavius Josephus and Lucius Claudius Cassius Dio to realise that not only was the Roman Empire at war with Jews for the most part but also that the Roman Generals were quite indiscriminate in terms of targeting military units and civilians. I only have one online source that puts this "allegation" forward but since the word "alleged genocides" is in the title of the section concerned I think it would fit right in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GreyMech ( talk • contribs) 05:36, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Verifiable reliable source:
HIR Historical and Investigative Research The Crux of WORLD HISTORY by Francisco Gil-White http://www.hirhome.com/israel/cruxcontents.htm
Volume 1: The Book of Genesis The Birth of the Jewish People
Part 1: Chapter 1: The Roman ‘Final Solution’ in the first and second centuries; why it happened, and why you never heard about it. http://www.hirhome.com/israel/crux01.pdf
A quote from the first paragraph of the first chapter.
"This first chapter does not deal with Jewish origins, and neither does it deal with the prelude to Jewish origins, but rather with a discussion of the Roman genocide of the Jews in the first and second centuries, and why it happened."
I would assume that this source is reliable enough to be cited as a reference or quoted from in a section called "Timeline of genocides and alleged genocides". —Preceding unsigned comment added by GreyMech ( talk • contribs) 09:29, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Here are my other sources, each of these sources explicitly state that genocide occurred. 1.The First Jewish Revolt: Archaeology,History and Ideology By Andrea M.Berlin, J.Andrew Overman - ISBN 0415257069 Page 237 2.The Cambridge Ancient History By Iorwerth Eiddon Stephen Edwards - ISBN 0521263352 Page 379 3.Teaching About Genocide: Issues,Approaches and Resources by Samuel Totten - ISBN 159311074X Page 24 GreyMech ( talk) 11:23, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Might as well add the Great Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah and other instances for the sake of completeness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.117.244.15 ( talk) 07:28, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
There is all ready a source that has been referenced in this article.
Adam Jones, Genocide: A Comprehensive Introduction, Chapter 1: Genocide in prehistory, antiquity, and early modernity
A quote from the fourth or fifth paragraph of the first chapter
"The trend starts early on, in the Book of Genesis (6: 17–19), where God decides “to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life from under heaven,” with the exception of Noah and a nucleus of human and animal life."
I guess one would have to read the whole paragraph to put the above quote in some kind of context, but Adam Jones does indeed allude to the Great Flood / Noah´s Flood.
Yehuda Bauer: "As a Jew, I must live with the fact that the civilization I inherited . . . encompasses the call for genocide in its canon."
I´m not sure of the context in which Yehuda Bauer was writing or saying this, but I´m pretty sure he is referring to the whole of the Hebrew Bible (Tanach). —Preceding unsigned comment added by GreyMech ( talk • contribs) 09:48, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I understand your point about the wiki policy. About that quote you cited, I suppose you mentioned it because of the uncertainty surrounding it´s origin, to emphasize your point. Right? One more thing, I don´t see the the sense in using the term "Old Testament" in a sentence and then citing the quote from Yehuda Bauer in the next sentence, the civilization he inherited does not call their canon(nor is it identical to) the Old Testament. GreyMech ( talk) 11:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
What about the Congo Free State? It may not be considered genocide to some, but it was state sponsored murder against a race of people. Chewrockan ( talk) 01:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Why delete the description of Tom Reilly when most other authors are described on the page? Does someone not like the facts? Hughsheehy ( talk) 15:22, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
<reduce indent> The Royal ref (page 550) that you mentioned only talks about the outcome of the sieges at Drogheda and Wexford. These incidents are not particularly relevant when discussing whether there was a "genocide" or not. Further, the Bosnia case judgement only said that ethnic cleansing doesn't automatically equate to genocide not that it can't, and in any case a legalistic definition and the common meaning of the term don't necessarily always agree. As for entering into these arguments, that's not my place or yours. All we can do is accurately reference published material. Hughsheehy ( talk) 09:50, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I wanted to ask you if someone knows why there is no mention of the Islamic invasions of India in the Genocides in history page? Will Durant said in the famous quote that it was probably the bloodiest story in history. Is the problem that nobody has made the effort yet, or because it was removed? Librorum Prohibitorum ( talk) 04:04, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
User:Editingman I have copied your entry for Chima from the article page for further discussion:
During the mid-nineteenth century, the Muslims and the Miao people of China revolted against the Qing Dynasty, most notably in the Dungan revolt (1862-1877) and the Panthay rebellion 1856-1873) in Yunnan. These little known revolts were suppressed by the Manchu government in a manner that accounts to genocide,(Levene, Mark. Genocide in the Age of the Nation-State. I.B.Tauris, 2005. ISBN 1845110579)(Giersch, Charles Patterson. Asian Borderlands: The Transformation of Qing China's Yunnan Frontier. Harvard University Press, 2006. ISBN 1845110579)( Muslim History in China)(Ridwan Khan The challenges and opportunities of Chinese Islam cites Dillon, Michael. China’s Muslim Hui Community. Curzon, 1999. ISBN 0700710264) killing a million people in the Panthay rebellion(Damsan Harper, Steve Fallon, Katja Gaskell, Julie Grundvig, Carolyn Heller, Thomas Huhti, Bradley Maynew, Christopher Pitts. Lonely Planet China. 9. 2005. ISBN 1740596870)(ref name=chineseciv: Gernet, Jacques. A History of Chinese Civilization. 2. New York: Cambridge University Press, 1996. ISBN 0521497124), several million in the Dungan revolt(name=chineseciv) and five million in the suppression of Miao people in Guizhou.( name=chineseciv) A " washing off the Muslims"(洗回 (xi Hui)) policy had been long advocated by officials in the Manchu government.(Jonathan N. Lipman, "Familiar Strangers: A History of Muslims in Northwest China (Studies on Ethnic Groups in China)", University of Washington Press (February 1998), ISBN 0295976446.)
Please see WP:CITE#Full references: "Full references for books typically include: the name of the author, the title of the book or article, the date of publication, and page numbers. The name of the publisher, city of publication, and ISBN are optional." The reference given do not include page numbers so are not adequate. Please can you supply page numbers for the books cited.
Please see WP:PROVEIT Looking east: The challenges and opportunities of Chinese Islam by Ridwan Khan is an essay and therefore not a reliable source. This is probably also true for the other web page cited Muslim History in China can you explain why you consider it a reliable source. -- PBS ( talk) 20:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
In his book Death by Government, Professor R.J. Rummel argues that "a full scale genocide was carried out in the Vendée in which possibly 117,000 inhabitants were systematically murdered." [dubious – discuss]
Ledenierhomme What is dubious about the statement? It is not a statement of fact or are you saying that the Rummel is dubious source? -- PBS ( talk) 10:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
So you are not disputing that the statement is verifiable and an accurate reflection of the text from which the the Wikipedia sentence is derived, you are disputing that R.J. Rummel is a reliable source. The text was added by C.J. Griffin lets ask that editor's opinion. -- PBS ( talk) 18:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
C.J. Griffin, I encourage you to read all the sources cited in the section of this article, before drawing any conclusions as to which sources and statements are plausible or dubious. If your main resource is the internet, well, that's a shame, but at least read Gough's article (which is available online) and look into who some of the authorities mentioned are, before you quote a rather irrelevant book by Rummel, who is not an expert on this subject and who admits his information is second-hand. FYI, Ladouce (another Catholic Christian) is not the source of the 117,000 figure, Secher is - in which case the quote from Rummel is third-hand, and only demonstrates that he is not a reliable source for this subject (the War in the Vendee). Rummel may well be a respected academic, but his credentials are irrelevant as far as this article is concerned. Would you refer to Stephen Hawking in an article on the Yellow Turban Rebellion?
The article as it stands is already too long, and does a gross disservice to the subject matter as it in essence, places the words of polemicists (in most cases self-published in all but name) on an equal footing with established authorities who are specialists/experts on the subjects and have been published in peer-reviewed journals.
Unfortunately there seems to be no shortage of anti-French racists and bigots looking to point score over something as serious as genocide, and mob rule has ensured that Secher's polemics remain intact. - Ledenierhomme ( talk) 18:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Both of these countries' alleged genocides are under the heading of International Prosecution of Genocide rather than in the main list of alleged genocides. This seems wrong, but as a reader who came here to just to read the article, I would rather leave this edit up to someone more involved in this page. The heading "International Criminal Court" seems to have no text under it that relates to the heading. Has something gone missing? -- CloudSurfer ( talk) 17:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
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" Turks claim that since no country recognizes this behavior as genocide (well over 1 million Turks were killed in such a way between 1870 and the end of World War II), it is absurd to call what happened to the Armenians in Anatolia (with similar proportions) genocide, and that the genocide claim is just being used against the losing side in the First World War." All purportedly being reference by The Ghost of Freedom: A History of the Caucasus by Charles King. This edit needs a page number for verifiability.
Another common claim made by not only Turks, but also other peoples of the region, is that the actions of Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro and Greece during the First Balkan War (against Albanians and Turks, as well as other peoples of the region)and of the same list minus Bulgaria during the Second (against Bulgarians) constituted genocide, especially those by the Serbs against Albanians and Turks in Kosovo and Macedonia. --Glenny, Misha. "The Balkans", needs a page number as well. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 02:15, 11 August 2010 (UTC)