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I saw some people are making accusations that this article is written by a fourth greater. If they are such great at this, why don't they write the article themselves. Accusing people of doing poor work, and they not doing anything is childish. The main important thing is that the readers understand, and copyediting and grammatical errors and mistakes are far secondary.
This article is great!!! Keep up the good work. Add more new content!!! This is one of the best articles on Wikipedia, especially in terms of NPOV, detail and understandability. I think there are a number of well-balanced editors and watchers dedicated to looking after this article, which is great!!!. We don't need any POV in this article, especially antagonistic viewpoint, which would only degrade the article and make it appear like childish rambling. 72.244.34.50 19:36, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Some of the above discussions are more than a year old, and may not refer to the current version of the article. I think I'm going to archive this talk page soon, so that old debates won't confuse people anymore. I'm not aware of any open issues and it has become very long anyway. -- Latebird 21:13, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I think balance (npov) is critical for this article and we need to look at pov statements closely whenever there is edit. 67.41.157.5 04:27, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Why does the text state that Ghengis was born between 1150 and 1160 when the text under his picture states that he was born in 1162? This lacks consistency.
This is a good question. Let's analyze the data:
From this, it can only be deduced that Temüjin was born sometime between 1159 and 1171. I'm sure that there are other sources that can be brought into play here, but they probably won't alter this deduced range of time for his year of birth. I'm going to put that range in this article. - John Rigali ( talk) 09:35, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm such an idiot. I just looked at the article's first reference for the very first time, which discusses much more authoritative citations of Temüjin's year of birth; I should've looked at it before letting my fingers "talk" here. I'm still putting in my two cents' worth, but it'll be more subtle and conciliatory. - John Rigali ( talk) 09:51, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
In this article, some original documents have been manipulated and the different views about this issue is terribly unbalanced. It also contains too many mistakes. Although the view of the author is consistent with some “modern historians/politicians” in Mongol, Turkey and some Western countries who are trying to change the traditional conclusions that last hundreds of years/, the author simply ignored abundant original documents which he referred to as “exaggeration”
As one of the most terrible mistake, for the statement “Genghis Khan generally preferred to offer opponents the chance to submit to his rule.”, It is so terrible opposite to the truth that it would not be more mistaken to say Hilter. I believe the article would irritated most people with some history knowledge , especially historians, in Iran, Arabia, KoreaRussia, Ukraine and some other east European countries, if they have chance to read it from Wikimpedia. The anger would not be less strong than the Jewish people who found someone praise the "positive contribution to the world" from Hilter. In the history education in Russia and Ukrane, the invasion of the Mongols have been mentioned together with Hitler's invasion since WWII. There were museem in Russia and South Korea in memory of the millions of victims under the massacre.
According to hundreds authors from at least ten different countries during the period of Mongol Empire, including words from his own senior officers and Temujen himself, Genghis Khan generally preferred to kill at least all the male who would not become slaves of the Mongols, even they did not resisted not at all. Those who became his slaves was not any better because they were driven to dead by hard labor very soon, or they were simple used as human shield. He accepted surrender only if the opponents help him to kill more people. They raped all the women they captured and very often killed them after that, except a small part of them were kidnapped to Mongol as their slaves. As one of resource of their food supply, they often eated the meat of the victims they killed. They also use the dead body of victims as weapon, either for making fire or for bacterial infections. It was reported that the corruptive dead body was thrown into the city of their opponents. As a consequence, bubonic plague from their biological weapon caused death of more than 20 millions people in Europe. Although the result was not exactly they planned, but it was indeed what they try to archive all the time.
In his own words for educating his sons, Genghis Khan said “it is the greatest fun of men’s life who kill all the opponents and their family members, take over all the properties in order see how their women cries, than take their wives and dauthers to the bed and have sex with them.” Apparently his purpose of life is t making pains of other people. Genghis Khan and his men ripper opened people stomach looking for jewellery and zippered open womb of pregnant women and kill the unburned baby for fun. Although some “modern historian” praised Genghis Khan were generous to give valuable jewelers to his staff, however they “forgot” to mentions all the jewelers was plundered from other at expense of death for tens of millions people.
The article in Wikimedia avoid to quote tons of original documents from different countries so that evidence Gengish Khan engaged in larger scales of holocaust the Hilter was hided.
There are also many other inconsistency between original document and the citation. The Iranian historian (also a senior officer in the Mongol government) Rashid al-Din stated in his book that the Mongols systematically killed more than 1.3millions civilians in the Merv city, however, the author changed into a much smaller number into “killing more than 70,000”, without explanation. The article ignored many documents from different countries that records Gengiskhan and his army systematically murdered more than one millions civilians in a single city, including a report from a Italy ambassador which provided concrete description about how the Mongols systematically murdered every civilians including women and children; neither it failed to present the literature from the Mongols themselves, “secret history of mongol” in witch the authors present their proud for their success in murdering and plundering others. Instead, the article stated that whether the disappearing of 60 millions population after such systematic holocaust is due to the massacre is “unclear and speculative.”
Genghis Khan was regarded as hero and sometimes as a god in Mongolia and Turkey, due to their glory and proud in the past had been highly related to the conquers of Genghis Khan. Such warship was also supported by some historians in western countries, especially in America, probably as an effect to tense up relations between former Soviet Unions and it neighbors with nomad histories. While the author pointed out some “modern historians” believed the victims exaggerated the casualties, he failed to mention those “modern historians” forgot to present solid evidence to prove why those original documents from many different countries are unreliable and exaggerated.
The current article not only neglects the arguments from “worthless and untrustable bias of victims of” the poor Russians, Arabians, Chinese, Koreans and Russian, but also neglects negative conclusions about the impact of the Mongols. For example. In his book of “The history of the mongol conquests”, British historian Prof J.J. Saunders wrote: “As exponents of genocide, the Mongols was most notorious since the ancient Assyrians, who exterminated or deported whole nations, and their loathsome record in killings was unsurpassed till the NAZI massacres in our own day . Christian and Muslim chroniclers agree in this bloody tale of savagery.”
It is also not mentioned that the expense of the victims has never been considered by the “modern historians” when they were counting so-called “positive contribution” of Gengiskhan (such as bridging the silk road). It is comparable that some historians in former Soviet Union praise the positive contribution of Stalin without mentioning his victims. Similarly, the pro-Nazi historians the would not consider the victims of Hitler’s victims as any valuable thing so that they did not hesitate to count the “positive contribution of Hitler”. That type of historians should be considered as siding with the person they comments especially, after they tried to manipulate the original records as the author of this article did.
Based on more than above argument, It should be tagged that the neutrality of this article is disputed. If necessary I can present the original sources of all the above argument, and much more ancient documents which records the holocaust of the Mongols. As a neutral and balanced article, I think a major revision is needed in which the new materials should be included in the article without ruling out the existing ones. Georgezh2007 22:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I have not read Saunders' book and the Mongol empire is not my core area of interest, but I also think there is a general problem with relying too much on primary sources since they are often the most biased ones. IMO it would be useful to at least inform the reader what source you are quoting from if it is a primary source. Something like "The arab author Ibn al-athir (1160-1233) wrote ...". Re. Carpini, he seems most focused on europe, he reports a lot of hearsay, some of it completely nonsensical (men like dogs), and in the version I have seen ( here) he only seems to mention that the Mongols will destroy those that resist them (beginning of chapter 18, "How to resist them") Yaan 12:58, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I've cleaned up the intro. It now contains much less unnecessary trivia, and focuses on the core points to describe Ghengis and his career. Any POV issues should now also be removed from that section. -- Latebird 16:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
There's a point in saying that it wasn't so nice and courteous. Let's look at the facts, Bukhara has a square called Shahidon (Martyrs). It is a place where Ghengis Khan and his army slaughtered people who sought refuge in a mosque (the square is outside the mosque).-- Sahib-qiron ( talk) 11:46, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Is there a source for this? Ogodei, Hulagu, Khubilai and Timur probably were responsible for the death of tens of milions (each?) as well, and what about the guys who started/subdued the Taiping rebellion? I know it's a bit nit-picky, but IMHO WP should be as precise as possible. Yaan 10:21, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
I cleaned up the wording on the section speculating on his appearance. The source clearly states that ad-Din (who never met Genghis, since he died before he was born, by the way) speculates that the legendary "glittering" visitor is the one with red hair, and blue eyes. NOT Genghis. Wikipedia isn't a place for "Aryan revisionism".
The high occurance of red hair in today's Khalka, Buryat, Uyghur, Kazak, Kirghiz and Tatar people makes it not unlikely that Genghis Khan actually did have red hair. Red hair should not be confused with Aryan. Central Asia's Turkic/Mongol peoples have a lot of red haired people amongst them. M0NG0LIANWARRI0R 12:15, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
That is not for you to decide. How can you delete it? Then I can delete all the stuff about Genghis khan which you find factual, I will call it contemporary. Add Ad-Din's description of Genghis khan a.s.a.p. Or can't you handle the truth, my friend? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.250.93.21 ( talk) 17:50, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Currently, almost every sentence in the article praises the murder and conquest of Khan and "his people". Someone actually wrote sentences that shamelessly claim that mongolians are the greatest people in the world. I will help, but more people need to edit this article and remove the blatant POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Closestyle321 ( talk • contribs) -- Latebird 05:32, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
I just finished reading this article. There is NO doubt that article reaks of POV. There are ample citations for the fact that Genghis Khan raped a lot of women (or did not rape, but "consummated"). There is almost no mention of it: I can pick a lot of sentecces with weasel words and POV, and I really do not understand how any one can contest it without bringing in ulterior motives. Here is a sample:
There are many many more problems, specially weasel wording of the whole article makes it a pain to read and get ANY idea about the Khan, instead it is more of a "starting of Mongol empire by this guy who was great but he killed so some people say he was bad".
The whole article is very low on citations, with big amounts of incoherent prose. There are also many images which will qualify for deletion.-- Jahilia 22:09, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Since I am not getting any constructive criticism anymore, I have started editing the article. One quick question: British English or American English? Right now I am inclined for latter.-- Jahilia 06:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
The article shows a modern ger from Mongolia, but gers from the 12th/13th century are often said to have had a more copped roof (see for ex. the 500 Tugrik note [2]). I guess the question of what these gers looked like is hard to decide nowadays, but I'll at least change the image's caption. Yaan 15:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
The book with the picture from Ejen Horo is only from 1965. The picture is a bit older, but probably not much (1962?) The 1913 book shows a ger that looks just like those used today. Plus I only have it in digital form downloaded from the site linked to above, but in an earlier version of lower quality. Yaan 16:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Did the French farmers pay tax to King Khan? That's what a Mongol friend told me recently. Anwar 14:08, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
The Mongol Hordes never made it into France. They did conquer places like Hungary, that's why a lot of Hungarians have red hair. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.102.35.179 ( talk) 00:05, August 21, 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be an awful lot of bizarre speculation in this thread. The Mongols did not conquer Hungary, though they invaded and fought there; they turned back on the death of Ogodei and stayed within Russia from then on. They also did not leave a genetic legacy of red hair there-- according to ancient Greek sources red-haired people were already living in Thrace and along the Volga (see Red hair). Finally, France was never subject to the Mongol Empire in any way, but most diplomatic missions involved a presentation of a gift or gifts during that period, so "tribute" in that sense was delivered (as eloquently explained by Yaan). Genghis Khan did say many times that he believed that the Mongols would eventually conquer the entire world, though, so it's no surprise that the Mongol Khans saw every visitting foreigner as a subject or as a tributary inferior. siafu 16:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
The article currently says, "The monk's negative answer disheartened Genghis Khan, and he rapidly lost interest in the monk." However, in the very next sentence, it goes on to say, "He also passed a decree exempting all followers of Taoist religion from paying any taxes." This seems to be a contradiction. Why would someone exempt an entire religion's followers from paying taxes, if they had no interest in even one of most well-known monks of that religion? --- Jel 08:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
The audio of Genghis Khan, is not very clear, I can't do any better but if someone can re-record the pronunciation would be appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.243.72.143 ( talk • contribs) -- Latebird 23:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
If not for content, then for the title. I honestly can't see any way to avoid this conclusion. In Wikipedia where we all admit to biasses, the only time anyone would use the words "an objective view" is to attempt to slip their own bias into the article.
"Assuming good faith" doesn't give this a pass -- although AGF does indicate what the person who wrote/maintains this section is trying to do. Obviously, every person has some good, praiseworthy qualities (sociopaths & the criminally insane aside), & this section is an attempt to highlight those qualities in Genghis. Also, I concede that something like this is needed to provide an NPOV view of Genghis. Yet looking at this section header & reading the text, it is hard not to summarize it as "But you know, although he was responsible for the deaths of countless people, Genghis wasn't all bad. He loved his children, provided for his followers, and never abused animals." Not only does this fail to convince, if it wasn't written to push one specific point of view, a suspicious reader can't help but suspect that it was so written.
And then there is the issue of original research: this section begins with the ominous words, "It is not entirely clear what Genghis Khan's personality was truly like, as with any historical person without an autobiography." In other words, since there are no firm facts, this article will attempt to prove a thesis. Were there an authority who discusses these matters & could be quoted -- even if it could be said that this section is based on the POV of Genghis taught in Mongolian schools -- it would help avoid this problem.
I offer this as disinterested advice; were I to be told {{sofixit}}, my response would be to simply delete the entire section. I hope that those who care can find a way to resolve this problem. -- llywrch 18:18, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
People are going to be passionate about this subject. Whether he was a horrible killer or a great leader is really a matter of personal opinion. The only way to make this article non-biased is to include both viewpoints and why those viewpoints exist, to put it all in perspective for the reader. Just MHO. Spritzie 03:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I made changes regarding this. This section looked POV to me for some time. I absorbed the text into other sections, bulk of the text is still in the article but re-organizated into different section. Feel free to edit. 67.41.203.181 06:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Growing up i was told many versions of stories about Genghis Khan and then later learn a bit of it through history of the world class in school. One thing I keep wondering but never come across in history text books is the daughter(s) of Genghis Khan. In one version of a folklore, he has a daughter that he loved very much but in history books, no one ever talks about any of Genghis Khan's daughter, is there a reason why? Е
Thank you for the reply, but why would folklore talks about a beloved daughter of GK when there are none recorded in history? Have anyone ever come across a text that would indicates her name? and/or of her the presence? mommyofif 10 09 2007.
User:71.94.158.71 asks why we don't generally link to Wiki-articles. Answer:
In this specific case [3] I'm changing the http: link to a wiki-link. The info box at Mongols is a satisfactory source for the statement. But the preceding statement (re: Chinese national hero) could use a citation. Sbowers3 13:26, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't Subudei, as mentioned in the article, be rendered (and wikilinked) as Subutai? Or are these different people? Badagnani 20:27, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Jenghis Khan is the true spelling of the name, numerous documentries, my book i have from my library call him jenghis, and i suggest that we atleast go with the proper spellign and have this be a redirect page... plus then the pro mongol people here would be somewhat happy and we'de be speeling correctly.-- Cody6 22:46, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Before continuing this discussion, please make sure that you have read and understand the relevant Wikipedia policies:
In light of those policies, and in light of the absolutely dominant use of "Genghis" in most other literature, the minority opinion of your Mr. Praawdin has no relevance for Wikipedia. -- Latebird 11:17, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Okay as I go through the article I notice he is referred to as both Temüjin and Genghis Khan. It needs to be consistent and organized. Any thoughts on how to do this? Spritzie 23:46, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
After the section of the article that actually discussed the life of Genghis, there is a long section on the Mongol Empire. That section has no place here, in an article that is supposed to be about Genghis. I am going to paste some of that material into the Mongol Empire as appropriate, but it has to go from here. Vidor 04:41, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I believe this needs to be mentioned in his article, as it's something most people don't know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcler7 ( talk • contribs) 00:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
The section that discusses the origin of the name Temujin contains a statement that Temujin would have been familiar with the use of iron for horseshoes. Now the Secret history of the Mongols explains the name quite differently (Temujin was named after a captive of his father), but the more important question is: Did 12th century Mongols use horseshoes? I have been to Mongolia two or three times and also seen some horses, but never with horseshoes. Yaan 17:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I woud say horseshoes are used today only when you need to ride inside a city on an asphalt road. So I think it is highly unlikely that horseshoes were used during that time. But it is possible Temujin has something to do with ironsmith, I think people used to make swords in Mongolia. Well on the other hand the name just could be a symbol for hardship and strength, nothing to do with one's profession. Temur 16:54, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
The first paragraph in the "Controversy section" appears to be largely a work of original synthesis or interpretation. While a "controversy" section will understandably contain some subjective statements, there are currently no source citations for the stated perspective, and there appears to be only a weak attempt at providing multiple points of view. In particular, I am very uncomfortable with these sentences as currently presented: "Therefore, there is an entire culture that identifies with Khan as a leader and founder, much as George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, and others are viewed as the “founding fathers” of The United States of America. Genghis Khan is undisputedly both the creator and destroyer of nations, and remains a debatable figure, even to modern scholars." Milnivlek 16:46, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Since he was Tartar doesn't that make him basically of turkish descent? Or was he some kind of mix —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.238.27.30 ( talk) 02:16, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
It is very common in Mongolia to encounter yellowish (if not blonde) haired and/or green eyed person. Some of my relatives have green eyes, one of my friends had very blondish hair when he was kid and it became not so obvious now. Temur 18:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
There are two different explanations for how Chinggis became Genghis given in this section, without explaining the apparent contradictions between the two. To me, "medieval romanization" looks like complete nonsense, so I am a bit inclined to delete that one. But I don't really feel confident enough in that matter. In any case, it might be helpful to look up which spellings (if any) Rubruck,Carpini, or Marco Polo used. Yaan 20:10, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Unless any one has a source which shows the derivation of Genghis from Chenggis due to the fact that there is no "ch" sound in the Persian tongue (!!!!!) , I think it should be rewritten. As a matter of fact the name is written as Chenggis in several Persian historical documents. Perhaps whoever wrote this meant to write there was no "ch" sound in Arabic. The only reasonable explanation would be that the name was transformed not because of the way it was pronounced but because of the way it was written as most scripts recorded by the Persian historians of the time would have been recorded in Arabic. On a second note there is also no "g" ( as in grapes ) sound in Arabic which could explain the transformation of "gg" to "gh". 21 December 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
I saw some people are making accusations that this article is written by a fourth greater. If they are such great at this, why don't they write the article themselves. Accusing people of doing poor work, and they not doing anything is childish. The main important thing is that the readers understand, and copyediting and grammatical errors and mistakes are far secondary.
This article is great!!! Keep up the good work. Add more new content!!! This is one of the best articles on Wikipedia, especially in terms of NPOV, detail and understandability. I think there are a number of well-balanced editors and watchers dedicated to looking after this article, which is great!!!. We don't need any POV in this article, especially antagonistic viewpoint, which would only degrade the article and make it appear like childish rambling. 72.244.34.50 19:36, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Some of the above discussions are more than a year old, and may not refer to the current version of the article. I think I'm going to archive this talk page soon, so that old debates won't confuse people anymore. I'm not aware of any open issues and it has become very long anyway. -- Latebird 21:13, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I think balance (npov) is critical for this article and we need to look at pov statements closely whenever there is edit. 67.41.157.5 04:27, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Why does the text state that Ghengis was born between 1150 and 1160 when the text under his picture states that he was born in 1162? This lacks consistency.
This is a good question. Let's analyze the data:
From this, it can only be deduced that Temüjin was born sometime between 1159 and 1171. I'm sure that there are other sources that can be brought into play here, but they probably won't alter this deduced range of time for his year of birth. I'm going to put that range in this article. - John Rigali ( talk) 09:35, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm such an idiot. I just looked at the article's first reference for the very first time, which discusses much more authoritative citations of Temüjin's year of birth; I should've looked at it before letting my fingers "talk" here. I'm still putting in my two cents' worth, but it'll be more subtle and conciliatory. - John Rigali ( talk) 09:51, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
In this article, some original documents have been manipulated and the different views about this issue is terribly unbalanced. It also contains too many mistakes. Although the view of the author is consistent with some “modern historians/politicians” in Mongol, Turkey and some Western countries who are trying to change the traditional conclusions that last hundreds of years/, the author simply ignored abundant original documents which he referred to as “exaggeration”
As one of the most terrible mistake, for the statement “Genghis Khan generally preferred to offer opponents the chance to submit to his rule.”, It is so terrible opposite to the truth that it would not be more mistaken to say Hilter. I believe the article would irritated most people with some history knowledge , especially historians, in Iran, Arabia, KoreaRussia, Ukraine and some other east European countries, if they have chance to read it from Wikimpedia. The anger would not be less strong than the Jewish people who found someone praise the "positive contribution to the world" from Hilter. In the history education in Russia and Ukrane, the invasion of the Mongols have been mentioned together with Hitler's invasion since WWII. There were museem in Russia and South Korea in memory of the millions of victims under the massacre.
According to hundreds authors from at least ten different countries during the period of Mongol Empire, including words from his own senior officers and Temujen himself, Genghis Khan generally preferred to kill at least all the male who would not become slaves of the Mongols, even they did not resisted not at all. Those who became his slaves was not any better because they were driven to dead by hard labor very soon, or they were simple used as human shield. He accepted surrender only if the opponents help him to kill more people. They raped all the women they captured and very often killed them after that, except a small part of them were kidnapped to Mongol as their slaves. As one of resource of their food supply, they often eated the meat of the victims they killed. They also use the dead body of victims as weapon, either for making fire or for bacterial infections. It was reported that the corruptive dead body was thrown into the city of their opponents. As a consequence, bubonic plague from their biological weapon caused death of more than 20 millions people in Europe. Although the result was not exactly they planned, but it was indeed what they try to archive all the time.
In his own words for educating his sons, Genghis Khan said “it is the greatest fun of men’s life who kill all the opponents and their family members, take over all the properties in order see how their women cries, than take their wives and dauthers to the bed and have sex with them.” Apparently his purpose of life is t making pains of other people. Genghis Khan and his men ripper opened people stomach looking for jewellery and zippered open womb of pregnant women and kill the unburned baby for fun. Although some “modern historian” praised Genghis Khan were generous to give valuable jewelers to his staff, however they “forgot” to mentions all the jewelers was plundered from other at expense of death for tens of millions people.
The article in Wikimedia avoid to quote tons of original documents from different countries so that evidence Gengish Khan engaged in larger scales of holocaust the Hilter was hided.
There are also many other inconsistency between original document and the citation. The Iranian historian (also a senior officer in the Mongol government) Rashid al-Din stated in his book that the Mongols systematically killed more than 1.3millions civilians in the Merv city, however, the author changed into a much smaller number into “killing more than 70,000”, without explanation. The article ignored many documents from different countries that records Gengiskhan and his army systematically murdered more than one millions civilians in a single city, including a report from a Italy ambassador which provided concrete description about how the Mongols systematically murdered every civilians including women and children; neither it failed to present the literature from the Mongols themselves, “secret history of mongol” in witch the authors present their proud for their success in murdering and plundering others. Instead, the article stated that whether the disappearing of 60 millions population after such systematic holocaust is due to the massacre is “unclear and speculative.”
Genghis Khan was regarded as hero and sometimes as a god in Mongolia and Turkey, due to their glory and proud in the past had been highly related to the conquers of Genghis Khan. Such warship was also supported by some historians in western countries, especially in America, probably as an effect to tense up relations between former Soviet Unions and it neighbors with nomad histories. While the author pointed out some “modern historians” believed the victims exaggerated the casualties, he failed to mention those “modern historians” forgot to present solid evidence to prove why those original documents from many different countries are unreliable and exaggerated.
The current article not only neglects the arguments from “worthless and untrustable bias of victims of” the poor Russians, Arabians, Chinese, Koreans and Russian, but also neglects negative conclusions about the impact of the Mongols. For example. In his book of “The history of the mongol conquests”, British historian Prof J.J. Saunders wrote: “As exponents of genocide, the Mongols was most notorious since the ancient Assyrians, who exterminated or deported whole nations, and their loathsome record in killings was unsurpassed till the NAZI massacres in our own day . Christian and Muslim chroniclers agree in this bloody tale of savagery.”
It is also not mentioned that the expense of the victims has never been considered by the “modern historians” when they were counting so-called “positive contribution” of Gengiskhan (such as bridging the silk road). It is comparable that some historians in former Soviet Union praise the positive contribution of Stalin without mentioning his victims. Similarly, the pro-Nazi historians the would not consider the victims of Hitler’s victims as any valuable thing so that they did not hesitate to count the “positive contribution of Hitler”. That type of historians should be considered as siding with the person they comments especially, after they tried to manipulate the original records as the author of this article did.
Based on more than above argument, It should be tagged that the neutrality of this article is disputed. If necessary I can present the original sources of all the above argument, and much more ancient documents which records the holocaust of the Mongols. As a neutral and balanced article, I think a major revision is needed in which the new materials should be included in the article without ruling out the existing ones. Georgezh2007 22:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I have not read Saunders' book and the Mongol empire is not my core area of interest, but I also think there is a general problem with relying too much on primary sources since they are often the most biased ones. IMO it would be useful to at least inform the reader what source you are quoting from if it is a primary source. Something like "The arab author Ibn al-athir (1160-1233) wrote ...". Re. Carpini, he seems most focused on europe, he reports a lot of hearsay, some of it completely nonsensical (men like dogs), and in the version I have seen ( here) he only seems to mention that the Mongols will destroy those that resist them (beginning of chapter 18, "How to resist them") Yaan 12:58, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I've cleaned up the intro. It now contains much less unnecessary trivia, and focuses on the core points to describe Ghengis and his career. Any POV issues should now also be removed from that section. -- Latebird 16:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
There's a point in saying that it wasn't so nice and courteous. Let's look at the facts, Bukhara has a square called Shahidon (Martyrs). It is a place where Ghengis Khan and his army slaughtered people who sought refuge in a mosque (the square is outside the mosque).-- Sahib-qiron ( talk) 11:46, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Is there a source for this? Ogodei, Hulagu, Khubilai and Timur probably were responsible for the death of tens of milions (each?) as well, and what about the guys who started/subdued the Taiping rebellion? I know it's a bit nit-picky, but IMHO WP should be as precise as possible. Yaan 10:21, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
I cleaned up the wording on the section speculating on his appearance. The source clearly states that ad-Din (who never met Genghis, since he died before he was born, by the way) speculates that the legendary "glittering" visitor is the one with red hair, and blue eyes. NOT Genghis. Wikipedia isn't a place for "Aryan revisionism".
The high occurance of red hair in today's Khalka, Buryat, Uyghur, Kazak, Kirghiz and Tatar people makes it not unlikely that Genghis Khan actually did have red hair. Red hair should not be confused with Aryan. Central Asia's Turkic/Mongol peoples have a lot of red haired people amongst them. M0NG0LIANWARRI0R 12:15, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
That is not for you to decide. How can you delete it? Then I can delete all the stuff about Genghis khan which you find factual, I will call it contemporary. Add Ad-Din's description of Genghis khan a.s.a.p. Or can't you handle the truth, my friend? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.250.93.21 ( talk) 17:50, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Currently, almost every sentence in the article praises the murder and conquest of Khan and "his people". Someone actually wrote sentences that shamelessly claim that mongolians are the greatest people in the world. I will help, but more people need to edit this article and remove the blatant POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Closestyle321 ( talk • contribs) -- Latebird 05:32, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
I just finished reading this article. There is NO doubt that article reaks of POV. There are ample citations for the fact that Genghis Khan raped a lot of women (or did not rape, but "consummated"). There is almost no mention of it: I can pick a lot of sentecces with weasel words and POV, and I really do not understand how any one can contest it without bringing in ulterior motives. Here is a sample:
There are many many more problems, specially weasel wording of the whole article makes it a pain to read and get ANY idea about the Khan, instead it is more of a "starting of Mongol empire by this guy who was great but he killed so some people say he was bad".
The whole article is very low on citations, with big amounts of incoherent prose. There are also many images which will qualify for deletion.-- Jahilia 22:09, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Since I am not getting any constructive criticism anymore, I have started editing the article. One quick question: British English or American English? Right now I am inclined for latter.-- Jahilia 06:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
The article shows a modern ger from Mongolia, but gers from the 12th/13th century are often said to have had a more copped roof (see for ex. the 500 Tugrik note [2]). I guess the question of what these gers looked like is hard to decide nowadays, but I'll at least change the image's caption. Yaan 15:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
The book with the picture from Ejen Horo is only from 1965. The picture is a bit older, but probably not much (1962?) The 1913 book shows a ger that looks just like those used today. Plus I only have it in digital form downloaded from the site linked to above, but in an earlier version of lower quality. Yaan 16:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Did the French farmers pay tax to King Khan? That's what a Mongol friend told me recently. Anwar 14:08, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
The Mongol Hordes never made it into France. They did conquer places like Hungary, that's why a lot of Hungarians have red hair. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.102.35.179 ( talk) 00:05, August 21, 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be an awful lot of bizarre speculation in this thread. The Mongols did not conquer Hungary, though they invaded and fought there; they turned back on the death of Ogodei and stayed within Russia from then on. They also did not leave a genetic legacy of red hair there-- according to ancient Greek sources red-haired people were already living in Thrace and along the Volga (see Red hair). Finally, France was never subject to the Mongol Empire in any way, but most diplomatic missions involved a presentation of a gift or gifts during that period, so "tribute" in that sense was delivered (as eloquently explained by Yaan). Genghis Khan did say many times that he believed that the Mongols would eventually conquer the entire world, though, so it's no surprise that the Mongol Khans saw every visitting foreigner as a subject or as a tributary inferior. siafu 16:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
The article currently says, "The monk's negative answer disheartened Genghis Khan, and he rapidly lost interest in the monk." However, in the very next sentence, it goes on to say, "He also passed a decree exempting all followers of Taoist religion from paying any taxes." This seems to be a contradiction. Why would someone exempt an entire religion's followers from paying taxes, if they had no interest in even one of most well-known monks of that religion? --- Jel 08:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
The audio of Genghis Khan, is not very clear, I can't do any better but if someone can re-record the pronunciation would be appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.243.72.143 ( talk • contribs) -- Latebird 23:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
If not for content, then for the title. I honestly can't see any way to avoid this conclusion. In Wikipedia where we all admit to biasses, the only time anyone would use the words "an objective view" is to attempt to slip their own bias into the article.
"Assuming good faith" doesn't give this a pass -- although AGF does indicate what the person who wrote/maintains this section is trying to do. Obviously, every person has some good, praiseworthy qualities (sociopaths & the criminally insane aside), & this section is an attempt to highlight those qualities in Genghis. Also, I concede that something like this is needed to provide an NPOV view of Genghis. Yet looking at this section header & reading the text, it is hard not to summarize it as "But you know, although he was responsible for the deaths of countless people, Genghis wasn't all bad. He loved his children, provided for his followers, and never abused animals." Not only does this fail to convince, if it wasn't written to push one specific point of view, a suspicious reader can't help but suspect that it was so written.
And then there is the issue of original research: this section begins with the ominous words, "It is not entirely clear what Genghis Khan's personality was truly like, as with any historical person without an autobiography." In other words, since there are no firm facts, this article will attempt to prove a thesis. Were there an authority who discusses these matters & could be quoted -- even if it could be said that this section is based on the POV of Genghis taught in Mongolian schools -- it would help avoid this problem.
I offer this as disinterested advice; were I to be told {{sofixit}}, my response would be to simply delete the entire section. I hope that those who care can find a way to resolve this problem. -- llywrch 18:18, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
People are going to be passionate about this subject. Whether he was a horrible killer or a great leader is really a matter of personal opinion. The only way to make this article non-biased is to include both viewpoints and why those viewpoints exist, to put it all in perspective for the reader. Just MHO. Spritzie 03:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I made changes regarding this. This section looked POV to me for some time. I absorbed the text into other sections, bulk of the text is still in the article but re-organizated into different section. Feel free to edit. 67.41.203.181 06:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Growing up i was told many versions of stories about Genghis Khan and then later learn a bit of it through history of the world class in school. One thing I keep wondering but never come across in history text books is the daughter(s) of Genghis Khan. In one version of a folklore, he has a daughter that he loved very much but in history books, no one ever talks about any of Genghis Khan's daughter, is there a reason why? Е
Thank you for the reply, but why would folklore talks about a beloved daughter of GK when there are none recorded in history? Have anyone ever come across a text that would indicates her name? and/or of her the presence? mommyofif 10 09 2007.
User:71.94.158.71 asks why we don't generally link to Wiki-articles. Answer:
In this specific case [3] I'm changing the http: link to a wiki-link. The info box at Mongols is a satisfactory source for the statement. But the preceding statement (re: Chinese national hero) could use a citation. Sbowers3 13:26, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't Subudei, as mentioned in the article, be rendered (and wikilinked) as Subutai? Or are these different people? Badagnani 20:27, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Jenghis Khan is the true spelling of the name, numerous documentries, my book i have from my library call him jenghis, and i suggest that we atleast go with the proper spellign and have this be a redirect page... plus then the pro mongol people here would be somewhat happy and we'de be speeling correctly.-- Cody6 22:46, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Before continuing this discussion, please make sure that you have read and understand the relevant Wikipedia policies:
In light of those policies, and in light of the absolutely dominant use of "Genghis" in most other literature, the minority opinion of your Mr. Praawdin has no relevance for Wikipedia. -- Latebird 11:17, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Okay as I go through the article I notice he is referred to as both Temüjin and Genghis Khan. It needs to be consistent and organized. Any thoughts on how to do this? Spritzie 23:46, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
After the section of the article that actually discussed the life of Genghis, there is a long section on the Mongol Empire. That section has no place here, in an article that is supposed to be about Genghis. I am going to paste some of that material into the Mongol Empire as appropriate, but it has to go from here. Vidor 04:41, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I believe this needs to be mentioned in his article, as it's something most people don't know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcler7 ( talk • contribs) 00:53, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
The section that discusses the origin of the name Temujin contains a statement that Temujin would have been familiar with the use of iron for horseshoes. Now the Secret history of the Mongols explains the name quite differently (Temujin was named after a captive of his father), but the more important question is: Did 12th century Mongols use horseshoes? I have been to Mongolia two or three times and also seen some horses, but never with horseshoes. Yaan 17:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I woud say horseshoes are used today only when you need to ride inside a city on an asphalt road. So I think it is highly unlikely that horseshoes were used during that time. But it is possible Temujin has something to do with ironsmith, I think people used to make swords in Mongolia. Well on the other hand the name just could be a symbol for hardship and strength, nothing to do with one's profession. Temur 16:54, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
The first paragraph in the "Controversy section" appears to be largely a work of original synthesis or interpretation. While a "controversy" section will understandably contain some subjective statements, there are currently no source citations for the stated perspective, and there appears to be only a weak attempt at providing multiple points of view. In particular, I am very uncomfortable with these sentences as currently presented: "Therefore, there is an entire culture that identifies with Khan as a leader and founder, much as George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, and others are viewed as the “founding fathers” of The United States of America. Genghis Khan is undisputedly both the creator and destroyer of nations, and remains a debatable figure, even to modern scholars." Milnivlek 16:46, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Since he was Tartar doesn't that make him basically of turkish descent? Or was he some kind of mix —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.238.27.30 ( talk) 02:16, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
It is very common in Mongolia to encounter yellowish (if not blonde) haired and/or green eyed person. Some of my relatives have green eyes, one of my friends had very blondish hair when he was kid and it became not so obvious now. Temur 18:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
There are two different explanations for how Chinggis became Genghis given in this section, without explaining the apparent contradictions between the two. To me, "medieval romanization" looks like complete nonsense, so I am a bit inclined to delete that one. But I don't really feel confident enough in that matter. In any case, it might be helpful to look up which spellings (if any) Rubruck,Carpini, or Marco Polo used. Yaan 20:10, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Unless any one has a source which shows the derivation of Genghis from Chenggis due to the fact that there is no "ch" sound in the Persian tongue (!!!!!) , I think it should be rewritten. As a matter of fact the name is written as Chenggis in several Persian historical documents. Perhaps whoever wrote this meant to write there was no "ch" sound in Arabic. The only reasonable explanation would be that the name was transformed not because of the way it was pronounced but because of the way it was written as most scripts recorded by the Persian historians of the time would have been recorded in Arabic. On a second note there is also no "g" ( as in grapes ) sound in Arabic which could explain the transformation of "gg" to "gh". 21 December 2007 (UTC)