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I removed as frivolous cite requests for the fact that "many" Christians, Jews and Muslims adhere to Biblical and/or Quranic outlines of history. Whoever wrote that it was "only a few dozen" in the edit summary needs to get out more - he's obviously never been to a Middle Eastern country and probably never ventured beyond his own little world, if he seriously thinks it's "a few dozen"! Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 00:48, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
To my understanding Japheth = white. Shem = semitic. Ham = black. Where do Asians and Native Americans fit in? 97.118.63.76 ( talk) 08:09, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Josephus certainly had some Indians coming from Shem. The Bible only mentions where the nearby people came from. And, of course, it's not as simple as that anyway. The descendants of each son would intermarry, so most people will be descendants of two or three of them. And the Hamites are certainly not all black - they include the Canaanites, Hittites etc, and North Africans. People with the same ancestors do not necessarily have the same colour of skin. 86.147.51.45 ( talk) 18:44, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
If you had looked at Google Books, you would have found Joseph Needham's Science and Civilization in China. This is a Jesuist figment, including a supposed Egyptian colony in China and a relationship between Hebrew, Egyptian, and Chinese. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:26, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
I removed one as I think it is clearly not a reliable source. It was restored, so I've brought it up at WP:RSN, although once removed, I believe it was the editor who wanted it replaced who should have done that, reliability is not the default position for a source. I also removed another unreliable source, and if the other editor who added that wants it restored they should go to RSN. Dougweller ( talk) 13:00, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
There are numerous books by Christian theologists that mentions that Shem = Caucasians, Japheth = Mongloids (Turks etc) & Ham = Africans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.103.205.27 ( talk) 13:32, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
This important map http://restorationlibrary.org/library_restoration/AOBH/AOBH_016_A.jpg can explain track the Sons of Noah and this map http://www.jesus-kashmir-tomb.com/sitebuilder/images/Map_to_Graves-691x418.jpg also support the future research. Bocah anon ( talk) 15:14, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
I am modern accredited scientist (explain latter). Please be patient and DO NOT EDIT my words. Bocah anon ( talk) 15:15, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
Most of the contents of this section is unsourced extra-Biblical 'identifications' and the like, and has been tagged as needing sourcing. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 07:34, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
A lot of material on this page is fruity and derived from very biased religious sources. The ethnic schema of Genesis 10 has been seriously attempted from the Semitic and Egyptian languages. The Egyptian derivation is not exactly controversial. Please stop vandalizing the edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.231.240.28 ( talk) 22:58, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
Sons of Noah is not accurate per title, as the page deals with not his sons but grandchildren etc., as the article opens, Noah had but Eight family members. I propose a name change to The Seventy nations that more accurately summarizes the current article's content-- Marecheth Ho'eElohuth ( talk) 22:54, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
This topic is called the Table of Nations, not the Sons of Noah. PiCo ( talk) 12:04, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
today Gürün in Sivas Province, Turkey Böri ( talk) 11:03, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Just curious, or do you pretend they don't exist? 184.96.242.187 ( talk) 16:44, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
(1) The Byzantine Greek historian George Syncellus (8th century) in his Chronography provided a fairly complete listing of tribes and ethnic groups which he believed were descended from the individuals named in the Table of Nations. It could be an interesting exercise to compare his list to those found in Josephus, Hippolytus, Jerome and Isidore of Seville and note any important differences found. Although Syncellus wrote somewhat later than the other authors mentioned here, he did have access to numerous earlier sources, so his works remain an important source on early eastern Christian biblical interpretations concerning these names. Unfortunately his work is only freely available on the Web in Byzantine Greek and in Latin translation: http://books.google.ca/books?id=VNUFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA91
(2) If anyone has a fair bit of time on their hands and access to the book On the Reliability of the Old Testament by K.A. Kitchen (Eerdmans 2003), a lot of information on the relationship of the names of the descendants of Shem, Ham and Japheth named in the Table of Nations and the tribes and ethnic groups associated with them can be found in the footnotes on pages 592-595. These footnotes cite numerous references to peer-reviewed historical/archaeological papers and other academic sources. Citing these references in the main article (and thereby replacing several dozen "citation needed" tags with actual references) would certainly do much to improve its quality. Kitchen's book is available in Google Books "preview" mode, although most of the pertinent pages are not part of the preview. However, I did manage to access pg. 594 (albeit which pages are accessible may vary from one Google Books user to another). Here's a Google Books link for anyone who may wish to use this resource to further improve the article:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=Kw6U05qBiXcC&pg=PA594
Mike Agricola ( talk) 23:37, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
There are two topics in this article: (1) the Table of Nations (as two other editors have pointed out above, this is a more appropriate name for this article), and (2) the "Noachic" or "Mosaic" Ethnography which derived from this table. I propose to split this out into separate articles, unless any objections. Oncenawhile ( talk) 18:10, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
PiCo, can we discuss your edits here? My view is that we should not be mixing (1) a description of what the bible says, with (2) the modern interpretation of that. Some of the interpretations that you added are highly subjective and should not be written using wikipedia's neutral voice. Oncenawhile ( talk) 15:26, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
I have made the technical request, as the page seems to be move protected.
Separately, PiCo, per the previous thread above, I am supportive of two separate pages as you also suggest. The most common title used in scholarly literature for the interpretations seems to be Biblical ethnography. Oncenawhile ( talk) 11:37, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
I did my best to find the earliest usage in literature of the phrase "Table of Nations" for this ancient subject and the earliest I could find was the 1836 English edition of Ernst Friedrich Karl Rosenmüller's Biblical Geography of Central Asia. Other books were picking up the phrase by 1840 after which it has been increasingly popular since. We may be able to find more material on the spread of the term that could be explained in the article. There is a wealth of material for every kind of pov and never any agreement on anything, so I feel this is one article if any where we should studiously refrain from endorsing any, but rather lay them all out impartially. Mr. Lunt ( talk) 15:35, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
I see User:PiCo has replaced several of the 'citation needed' tags with refs, which is on the surface good. However, he has relied on a single source to change much of the information completely to endorse a single view, and in so doing I believe has fallen prey to what I warned of immediately above ("There is a wealth of material for every kind of pov and never any agreement on anything, so I feel this is one article if any where we should studiously refrain from endorsing any, but rather lay them all out impartially.") I will give one example to illustrate:
The problem here is you can find sources making all kinds of claims about what is "usual" but it isn't necessarily the case. As you can see from the article, Josephus explicitly associates Tarshish with Cilicia and the city Tarsus. This was the standard identification repeated by Jerome, Isidore, and most sources until Monsieur Bochart who suggested Tarshish was Tartessus in Spain. This idea got some support in some schemes and schools of thought, however one problem contradicting your text PiCo, is that there is no attested record of any place called "Tarshish" in Spain; this association with "Tartessos" in Spain comes from Bochart centuries later as a suggested replacement for the usual "Tarsus" /Cilicia located near all of Tarshish' brothers. Mr. Lunt ( talk) 19:46, 20 February 2015 (UTC) Cethimus (Kittim
The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian ( talk) 11:27, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
Sons of Noah → Table of Nations – Most common title, rather than current descriptive and ambiguous name. Discussion already held on talk. Needs technical help. – Oncenawhile ( talk) 11:28, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
Greg, we're not saying in Wiki's voice that that all humanity descended from the three sons of Noah, we're saying that this is what the bible says. That the bible says this is a simple matter of fact. As for the title "Table of Nations", that's what chapter 10 is called in biblical scholarship - it's not a name that we've dreamed up. It's never called "Sons of Noah" - that's a title you'll only find in extreme biblical literalist circles. Wiki needs to reflect common scholarly usage, and it needs to base articles on scholarship, not popular notions. (I can give you some references if you like). PiCo ( talk) 01:47, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
In my mind, there are two alternatives here:
Should we start a new thread to discuss this and any other ideas? Oncenawhile ( talk) 08:37, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
Looking at scholarly works, I have a preference for the name Generations of Noah. Not only is is more concise, it also has the benefit of matching Generations of Adam. Oncenawhile ( talk) 14:11, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Number 5 7 12:35, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Sons of Noah → Generations of Noah – Per discussion above. Neither Sons of Noah nor Table of Nations appear to have consensus. This appears to have enough support now to try another RM. Oncenawhile ( talk) 20:26, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Til Eulenspiegel. Dougweller ( talk) 13:22, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
It is a complete failure of research to claim that becasue there is no mention of this subject in the Quran it is not important in Islam. There are literally thousands of written Muslim histories that include genealogies linking Muslims to sons of Noah. Most of the concepts about who descends from which son were debated back and forth among Christians, Jews, and Muslims for most of the Medieval period. I do not know where to begin with creating a discussion of this huge topic. The articles on Japheth and Gog and Magog at least cite a few basic sources, such as the Encyclopedia of Islam. A further source for one small fraction of this is the page: https://rsela.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/revisiting-the-origin-myths-of-the-turks/ Nlight2 ( talk) 13:54, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Islam is a religion, not a race and not all Muslims are related to each other. This is a fringe theory with no basis in Islam when it clearly states in the Quran that all of humanity descends from Prophet Adam and not Prophet Noah. Akmal94 ( talk) 04:30, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
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Hi, I'm not an Aramaic scholar, but I can see the quotes in the article from the Targum Yerushalmi uses more than one romanization scheme:
We see: Ḥam and Kūš with diacritics. But Shem, 'Meshech,' and other names are without diacritics. Wouldn't it look better to use a single scholarly Aramaic transcription system for these quotes?
"The sons of Japheth are Gomer,[33] and Magog,[34] and Madai,[35] and Javan,[36] and Tuval,[37] and Meshech[38] and Tiras,[39] while the names of their diocese are Africa proper,[40] and Germania,[41] and Media, and Macedonia, and Bithynia, and Moesia (var. Mysia) and Thrace. Now, the sons of Gomer were Ashkenaz,[42] and Rifath[43] and Togarmah,[44] while the names of their diocese are Asia,[45] and Parthia and the ‘land of the barbarians.’ The sons of Javan were Elisha,[46] and Tarshish,[47] Kitim[48] and Dodanim,[49] while the names of their diocese are Elis,[50] and Tarsus, Achaia[51] and Dardania." ---Targum Pseudo-Jonathan on Genesis 10:2–5
"The sons of Ḥam are Kūš, and Miṣrayim,[52] and Fūṭ (Phut),[53] and Kenaʻan,[54] while the names of their diocese are Arabia, and Egypt, and Elīḥerūq[55] and Canaan. The sons of Kūš are Sebā[56] and Ḥawīlah[57] and Savtah[58] and Raʻamah and Savteḫā,[59] [while the sons of Raʻamah are Ševā and Dedan].[60] The names of their diocese are called Sīnīrae,[61] and Hīndīqī,[62] Samarae,[63] Lūbae,[64] Zinğae,[65] while the sons of Mauretinos[66] are [the inhabitants of] Zemarğad and [the inhabitants of] Mezağ."[67] ---Targum Pseudo-Jonathan on Genesis 10:6–7
"The sons of Shem are Elam,[68] and Ashur,[69] and Arphaxad,[70] and Lud,[71] and Aram.[72] [And the children of Aram are these: Uz,[73] and Hul,[74] and Gether,[75] and Mash.[76]] Now, Arphaxad begat Shelah (Salah), and Shelah begat Eber.[77] Unto Eber were born two sons, the one named Peleg,[78] since in his days the [nations of the] earth were divided, while the name of his brother is Joktan.[79] Joktan begat Almodad, who measured the earth with ropes;[80] Sheleph, who drew out the waters of rivers;[81] and Hazarmaveth,[82] and Jerah,[83] and Hadoram,[84] and Uzal,[85] and Diklah,[86] and Obal,[87] and Abimael,[88] and Sheba,[84][89] and Ophir,[90] and Havilah,[91] and Jobab,[92] all of whom are the sons of Joktan.”[93]'' ---Targum Pseudo-Jonathan on Genesis 10: 22–28 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Traversetravis ( talk • contribs) 19:32, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
A page about the "Table of Nations" / "Generations of Noah" is the place to put info about, well, the Table of Nations! Instead, all this relevant info got shunted off to a page about early modern attempts to equate Shem, Ham, and Japheth with cosmetic phenotypes ("race"). /info/en/?search=Biblical_terminology_for_race
That stuff (Josephus, Hippolytus, etc) ought to be moved back here, as those correlations are the historiographical 'meat' of the Table of Nations. The details of those 70 or 72 national correlations have little to do with later, modern equations with a threefold "racial" scheme. Traversetravis ( talk) 01:02, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
File:Genealogy noah.jpg
What's the source for Noah having more children in China? Found this too on the author's website:
https://truthinlove.com/Pictures/dispersal.jpg
2407:7000:A2AB:D00:9CB6:ADE7:3CE4:11DB (
talk)
03:52, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
There is no way for someone looking for Frankish Table of Nations to find their way over from here, and the names are so similar I'm not sure if a {distinguish} would be justified in place of a disambiguation page. Thoughts? Orchastrattor ( talk) 18:18, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
"The etymology of his name is uncertain; some scholars have linked it to terms connected with divinity, but a divine or semi-divine status for Ham is unlikely.[29]""
Actually Ham means black. It certainly did to anyone who argued that the Hamites where blackened whites. According to the Wörterbuch der ägyptischen Sprache, the Egyptian equivalent Khem or Cham also means black, and...
"lists no less than 24 different terms of km indicating 'black' such as black stone, metal, wood, hair, eyes, and animals, and in one instance applied to a person's name.[1]". Source: /info/en/?search=Km_(hieroglyph)
Hebrew, like Ancient Egyptian, was an Afro-Asiatic language. 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:2154:4208:7E97:FDB7 ( talk) 08:53, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
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I removed as frivolous cite requests for the fact that "many" Christians, Jews and Muslims adhere to Biblical and/or Quranic outlines of history. Whoever wrote that it was "only a few dozen" in the edit summary needs to get out more - he's obviously never been to a Middle Eastern country and probably never ventured beyond his own little world, if he seriously thinks it's "a few dozen"! Til Eulenspiegel ( talk) 00:48, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
To my understanding Japheth = white. Shem = semitic. Ham = black. Where do Asians and Native Americans fit in? 97.118.63.76 ( talk) 08:09, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Josephus certainly had some Indians coming from Shem. The Bible only mentions where the nearby people came from. And, of course, it's not as simple as that anyway. The descendants of each son would intermarry, so most people will be descendants of two or three of them. And the Hamites are certainly not all black - they include the Canaanites, Hittites etc, and North Africans. People with the same ancestors do not necessarily have the same colour of skin. 86.147.51.45 ( talk) 18:44, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
If you had looked at Google Books, you would have found Joseph Needham's Science and Civilization in China. This is a Jesuist figment, including a supposed Egyptian colony in China and a relationship between Hebrew, Egyptian, and Chinese. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:26, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
I removed one as I think it is clearly not a reliable source. It was restored, so I've brought it up at WP:RSN, although once removed, I believe it was the editor who wanted it replaced who should have done that, reliability is not the default position for a source. I also removed another unreliable source, and if the other editor who added that wants it restored they should go to RSN. Dougweller ( talk) 13:00, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
There are numerous books by Christian theologists that mentions that Shem = Caucasians, Japheth = Mongloids (Turks etc) & Ham = Africans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.103.205.27 ( talk) 13:32, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
This important map http://restorationlibrary.org/library_restoration/AOBH/AOBH_016_A.jpg can explain track the Sons of Noah and this map http://www.jesus-kashmir-tomb.com/sitebuilder/images/Map_to_Graves-691x418.jpg also support the future research. Bocah anon ( talk) 15:14, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
I am modern accredited scientist (explain latter). Please be patient and DO NOT EDIT my words. Bocah anon ( talk) 15:15, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
Most of the contents of this section is unsourced extra-Biblical 'identifications' and the like, and has been tagged as needing sourcing. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 07:34, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
A lot of material on this page is fruity and derived from very biased religious sources. The ethnic schema of Genesis 10 has been seriously attempted from the Semitic and Egyptian languages. The Egyptian derivation is not exactly controversial. Please stop vandalizing the edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.231.240.28 ( talk) 22:58, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
Sons of Noah is not accurate per title, as the page deals with not his sons but grandchildren etc., as the article opens, Noah had but Eight family members. I propose a name change to The Seventy nations that more accurately summarizes the current article's content-- Marecheth Ho'eElohuth ( talk) 22:54, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
This topic is called the Table of Nations, not the Sons of Noah. PiCo ( talk) 12:04, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
today Gürün in Sivas Province, Turkey Böri ( talk) 11:03, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
Just curious, or do you pretend they don't exist? 184.96.242.187 ( talk) 16:44, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
(1) The Byzantine Greek historian George Syncellus (8th century) in his Chronography provided a fairly complete listing of tribes and ethnic groups which he believed were descended from the individuals named in the Table of Nations. It could be an interesting exercise to compare his list to those found in Josephus, Hippolytus, Jerome and Isidore of Seville and note any important differences found. Although Syncellus wrote somewhat later than the other authors mentioned here, he did have access to numerous earlier sources, so his works remain an important source on early eastern Christian biblical interpretations concerning these names. Unfortunately his work is only freely available on the Web in Byzantine Greek and in Latin translation: http://books.google.ca/books?id=VNUFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA91
(2) If anyone has a fair bit of time on their hands and access to the book On the Reliability of the Old Testament by K.A. Kitchen (Eerdmans 2003), a lot of information on the relationship of the names of the descendants of Shem, Ham and Japheth named in the Table of Nations and the tribes and ethnic groups associated with them can be found in the footnotes on pages 592-595. These footnotes cite numerous references to peer-reviewed historical/archaeological papers and other academic sources. Citing these references in the main article (and thereby replacing several dozen "citation needed" tags with actual references) would certainly do much to improve its quality. Kitchen's book is available in Google Books "preview" mode, although most of the pertinent pages are not part of the preview. However, I did manage to access pg. 594 (albeit which pages are accessible may vary from one Google Books user to another). Here's a Google Books link for anyone who may wish to use this resource to further improve the article:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=Kw6U05qBiXcC&pg=PA594
Mike Agricola ( talk) 23:37, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
There are two topics in this article: (1) the Table of Nations (as two other editors have pointed out above, this is a more appropriate name for this article), and (2) the "Noachic" or "Mosaic" Ethnography which derived from this table. I propose to split this out into separate articles, unless any objections. Oncenawhile ( talk) 18:10, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
PiCo, can we discuss your edits here? My view is that we should not be mixing (1) a description of what the bible says, with (2) the modern interpretation of that. Some of the interpretations that you added are highly subjective and should not be written using wikipedia's neutral voice. Oncenawhile ( talk) 15:26, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
I have made the technical request, as the page seems to be move protected.
Separately, PiCo, per the previous thread above, I am supportive of two separate pages as you also suggest. The most common title used in scholarly literature for the interpretations seems to be Biblical ethnography. Oncenawhile ( talk) 11:37, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
I did my best to find the earliest usage in literature of the phrase "Table of Nations" for this ancient subject and the earliest I could find was the 1836 English edition of Ernst Friedrich Karl Rosenmüller's Biblical Geography of Central Asia. Other books were picking up the phrase by 1840 after which it has been increasingly popular since. We may be able to find more material on the spread of the term that could be explained in the article. There is a wealth of material for every kind of pov and never any agreement on anything, so I feel this is one article if any where we should studiously refrain from endorsing any, but rather lay them all out impartially. Mr. Lunt ( talk) 15:35, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
I see User:PiCo has replaced several of the 'citation needed' tags with refs, which is on the surface good. However, he has relied on a single source to change much of the information completely to endorse a single view, and in so doing I believe has fallen prey to what I warned of immediately above ("There is a wealth of material for every kind of pov and never any agreement on anything, so I feel this is one article if any where we should studiously refrain from endorsing any, but rather lay them all out impartially.") I will give one example to illustrate:
The problem here is you can find sources making all kinds of claims about what is "usual" but it isn't necessarily the case. As you can see from the article, Josephus explicitly associates Tarshish with Cilicia and the city Tarsus. This was the standard identification repeated by Jerome, Isidore, and most sources until Monsieur Bochart who suggested Tarshish was Tartessus in Spain. This idea got some support in some schemes and schools of thought, however one problem contradicting your text PiCo, is that there is no attested record of any place called "Tarshish" in Spain; this association with "Tartessos" in Spain comes from Bochart centuries later as a suggested replacement for the usual "Tarsus" /Cilicia located near all of Tarshish' brothers. Mr. Lunt ( talk) 19:46, 20 February 2015 (UTC) Cethimus (Kittim
The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian ( talk) 11:27, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
Sons of Noah → Table of Nations – Most common title, rather than current descriptive and ambiguous name. Discussion already held on talk. Needs technical help. – Oncenawhile ( talk) 11:28, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
Greg, we're not saying in Wiki's voice that that all humanity descended from the three sons of Noah, we're saying that this is what the bible says. That the bible says this is a simple matter of fact. As for the title "Table of Nations", that's what chapter 10 is called in biblical scholarship - it's not a name that we've dreamed up. It's never called "Sons of Noah" - that's a title you'll only find in extreme biblical literalist circles. Wiki needs to reflect common scholarly usage, and it needs to base articles on scholarship, not popular notions. (I can give you some references if you like). PiCo ( talk) 01:47, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
In my mind, there are two alternatives here:
Should we start a new thread to discuss this and any other ideas? Oncenawhile ( talk) 08:37, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
Looking at scholarly works, I have a preference for the name Generations of Noah. Not only is is more concise, it also has the benefit of matching Generations of Adam. Oncenawhile ( talk) 14:11, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Number 5 7 12:35, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Sons of Noah → Generations of Noah – Per discussion above. Neither Sons of Noah nor Table of Nations appear to have consensus. This appears to have enough support now to try another RM. Oncenawhile ( talk) 20:26, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Til Eulenspiegel. Dougweller ( talk) 13:22, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
It is a complete failure of research to claim that becasue there is no mention of this subject in the Quran it is not important in Islam. There are literally thousands of written Muslim histories that include genealogies linking Muslims to sons of Noah. Most of the concepts about who descends from which son were debated back and forth among Christians, Jews, and Muslims for most of the Medieval period. I do not know where to begin with creating a discussion of this huge topic. The articles on Japheth and Gog and Magog at least cite a few basic sources, such as the Encyclopedia of Islam. A further source for one small fraction of this is the page: https://rsela.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/revisiting-the-origin-myths-of-the-turks/ Nlight2 ( talk) 13:54, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Islam is a religion, not a race and not all Muslims are related to each other. This is a fringe theory with no basis in Islam when it clearly states in the Quran that all of humanity descends from Prophet Adam and not Prophet Noah. Akmal94 ( talk) 04:30, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
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Hi, I'm not an Aramaic scholar, but I can see the quotes in the article from the Targum Yerushalmi uses more than one romanization scheme:
We see: Ḥam and Kūš with diacritics. But Shem, 'Meshech,' and other names are without diacritics. Wouldn't it look better to use a single scholarly Aramaic transcription system for these quotes?
"The sons of Japheth are Gomer,[33] and Magog,[34] and Madai,[35] and Javan,[36] and Tuval,[37] and Meshech[38] and Tiras,[39] while the names of their diocese are Africa proper,[40] and Germania,[41] and Media, and Macedonia, and Bithynia, and Moesia (var. Mysia) and Thrace. Now, the sons of Gomer were Ashkenaz,[42] and Rifath[43] and Togarmah,[44] while the names of their diocese are Asia,[45] and Parthia and the ‘land of the barbarians.’ The sons of Javan were Elisha,[46] and Tarshish,[47] Kitim[48] and Dodanim,[49] while the names of their diocese are Elis,[50] and Tarsus, Achaia[51] and Dardania." ---Targum Pseudo-Jonathan on Genesis 10:2–5
"The sons of Ḥam are Kūš, and Miṣrayim,[52] and Fūṭ (Phut),[53] and Kenaʻan,[54] while the names of their diocese are Arabia, and Egypt, and Elīḥerūq[55] and Canaan. The sons of Kūš are Sebā[56] and Ḥawīlah[57] and Savtah[58] and Raʻamah and Savteḫā,[59] [while the sons of Raʻamah are Ševā and Dedan].[60] The names of their diocese are called Sīnīrae,[61] and Hīndīqī,[62] Samarae,[63] Lūbae,[64] Zinğae,[65] while the sons of Mauretinos[66] are [the inhabitants of] Zemarğad and [the inhabitants of] Mezağ."[67] ---Targum Pseudo-Jonathan on Genesis 10:6–7
"The sons of Shem are Elam,[68] and Ashur,[69] and Arphaxad,[70] and Lud,[71] and Aram.[72] [And the children of Aram are these: Uz,[73] and Hul,[74] and Gether,[75] and Mash.[76]] Now, Arphaxad begat Shelah (Salah), and Shelah begat Eber.[77] Unto Eber were born two sons, the one named Peleg,[78] since in his days the [nations of the] earth were divided, while the name of his brother is Joktan.[79] Joktan begat Almodad, who measured the earth with ropes;[80] Sheleph, who drew out the waters of rivers;[81] and Hazarmaveth,[82] and Jerah,[83] and Hadoram,[84] and Uzal,[85] and Diklah,[86] and Obal,[87] and Abimael,[88] and Sheba,[84][89] and Ophir,[90] and Havilah,[91] and Jobab,[92] all of whom are the sons of Joktan.”[93]'' ---Targum Pseudo-Jonathan on Genesis 10: 22–28 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Traversetravis ( talk • contribs) 19:32, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
A page about the "Table of Nations" / "Generations of Noah" is the place to put info about, well, the Table of Nations! Instead, all this relevant info got shunted off to a page about early modern attempts to equate Shem, Ham, and Japheth with cosmetic phenotypes ("race"). /info/en/?search=Biblical_terminology_for_race
That stuff (Josephus, Hippolytus, etc) ought to be moved back here, as those correlations are the historiographical 'meat' of the Table of Nations. The details of those 70 or 72 national correlations have little to do with later, modern equations with a threefold "racial" scheme. Traversetravis ( talk) 01:02, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
File:Genealogy noah.jpg
What's the source for Noah having more children in China? Found this too on the author's website:
https://truthinlove.com/Pictures/dispersal.jpg
2407:7000:A2AB:D00:9CB6:ADE7:3CE4:11DB (
talk)
03:52, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
There is no way for someone looking for Frankish Table of Nations to find their way over from here, and the names are so similar I'm not sure if a {distinguish} would be justified in place of a disambiguation page. Thoughts? Orchastrattor ( talk) 18:18, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
"The etymology of his name is uncertain; some scholars have linked it to terms connected with divinity, but a divine or semi-divine status for Ham is unlikely.[29]""
Actually Ham means black. It certainly did to anyone who argued that the Hamites where blackened whites. According to the Wörterbuch der ägyptischen Sprache, the Egyptian equivalent Khem or Cham also means black, and...
"lists no less than 24 different terms of km indicating 'black' such as black stone, metal, wood, hair, eyes, and animals, and in one instance applied to a person's name.[1]". Source: /info/en/?search=Km_(hieroglyph)
Hebrew, like Ancient Egyptian, was an Afro-Asiatic language. 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:2154:4208:7E97:FDB7 ( talk) 08:53, 26 August 2023 (UTC)