This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 8 |
I have a doubt whether Canadian raising actually would raise the diphthong [äɪ] to [ʌɪ]. The vowel [ʌ] is pronounced too far back in the mouth. Could anybody verify this claim? I don't need a source, only somebody's word. Thank you. LakeKayak ( talk) 02:30, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
I beg your pardon, sir. I am little confused. I fail to see the relevancy of the audios. Could you please elaborate? Thank you. LakeKayak ( talk) 00:43, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Oh, you lost me for a second there. Thank you, sir. LakeKayak ( talk) 02:33, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
@ Wolfdog: When referring to the audio for [ʌ], which audio are you talking about? I'm a little confused. Do you mean the audio on this page for [ʌ~ɐ] or the audio [ʌ] on IPA vowel chart with audio. I can see the former as the nucleus for the raised [äɪ] more than the latter. LakeKayak ( talk) 03:15, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
@ Bisnic95: I beg your pardon, sir/ma'am. I don't recall sharing any page. Furthermore, I don't think I even know how to share a page. LakeKayak ( talk) 15:52, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
@ Bisnic95: As another note, I would prefer to say on topic. Whether or not Canadian English is a branch of American English is of little to no relevancy to my question. Thank you. LakeKayak ( talk) 15:57, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Thank you. LakeKayak ( talk) 02:51, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
To my knowledge, in American English, the initial "l" still remains un-velarized. Regardless of whether or not this is correct, I am confused either way. Can anybody help me out? Thank you. LakeKayak ( talk) 00:00, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
There is still a distinction made between the "l" in "little" and the "l" in "all." The latter sound fainter than the former. If the former is still velarized, then how is pronounced? LakeKayak ( talk) 02:47, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
I think I might know my real issue. The page Dental, alveolar and postalveolar lateral approximants says that the "clear l" appears in New York City English in the word "let", with a citation from Wells provided. I live within the New York metropolitan area, and I may have a slight influence from the accent. LakeKayak ( talk) 03:16, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
@ Wolfdog: Do you happen to have an audio recording of a speaker with the velarized initial "l"? I want to see if I can hear the difference.
I wouldn't even go as far to say all of the speakers have some degree of velarization of the initial "l." SeanMauch seems to show little to no velarization. Either way, I think I can hear the difference. Thank you. LakeKayak ( talk) 20:08, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
It can be noted that I am not the best analyzer. However, I do thank you all for your help. LakeKayak ( talk) 16:59, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
This article attempts to perpetuate the myth of the California accent as the source of the "General American" accent. It is a myth Hollywood enjoys contributing to but it is untrue. Californians have historically had Western accents (Howdy y'all). Hollywood and NYC promoted the central Midwestern accent as a standard accent and this rapidly became the standard in broadcast and film (indeed media outlets deliberately hired a lot of people out of the Iowa, Nebraska, etc. specifically for their accents). Over the years regional accents have been fading around the country, moreso in the South and West and less so in the Northeast. California in particular, because of its rapid immigration during the 20th century has seen more of a dulling of the native accent over the years than some other regions. But you still hear the native accent out in the rural areas (and, yes, people in California still use y'all out in the country and in some of the suburbs, though not as much as in the past).
This myth should not continue to be promoted.
--MC — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.131.2.3 ( talk) 19:15, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
@ 141.131.2.3: Do you happen to have a source to support your claim? If so, it will be possible to alter the article in order to tell the story with the most accuracy. If not, you only would need to find one. Either way, this seems to be an easy fix. LakeKayak ( talk) 01:00, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
I'm about to replace the current vowel charts with [1] and [2]. The problems with the current charts I have are:
The vowel charts I'd like to use are from Wells's Accents of English. They're not perfect either, but they're way better than the current charts. Revert me if there are any objections, but I think my reasoning is pretty good. Mr KEBAB ( talk) 05:24, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
Why would we not use the IPAc-en template when it is the standard for all of Wikipedia? Wolfdog ( talk) 16:00, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
Is there any reason to change the second sentence of the article, "Due to General American accents being widespread throughout the United States, they are sometimes, though controversially, classified as Standard American English" to something more like "Due to the perception of General American being widespread throughout the United States, it is sometimes, though controversially, classified/known as Standard American English"? I italicized the word "perception" to show that this is the major addition here. This seems like a logical edit to me, but I was wondering what others thought first. The change from plural ("General American accents") to singular ("General American") also seems cleaner to me, though honestly I also kind of like the plural, because it reinforces the idea that GenAm is not just "one thing". Wolfdog ( talk) 14:00, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
I was wondering whether anyone could stir up any sources to help either lend credibility to the following sentence or else unearth the reality of how General American "spread":
The fact that a broad "Midwestern" accent became the basis of what is General American is often attributed to the mass migration of Midwestern farmers to California from where the accent system spread,[citation needed][disputed – discuss] since California speech itself became prevalent in nationally syndicated films and media via the Hollywood film industry.[disputed – discuss]
The sentence has remained without much-needed citations for a while (as other frustrated users have pointed out), and, though its claim seems reasonable to me, it could just as likely be completely inaccurate. Does anyone know of any sources that could verify or counter? Thanks! Wolfdog ( talk) 15:10, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
Hi all. Mr KEBAB and I have been discussing /ɔː/, or the THOUGHT vowel, in General American. Wells indeed represents it with the phoneme /ɔ/, though I don't think I've ever heard any American use that as the actual realization, myself a lifelong American. I've heard [ɑ] (for speakers with the cot-caught merger), [ɒ~ɒə] (my own personal realization and common to many speakers who have the merger in perception but not production, or who have no merger at all, like myself), and a definitely diphthongal [ɔə] (as heard by speakers in the Northeast -- New York City, Philly, Connecticut, Rhode Island, etc. by otherwise GA speakers -- and in older US speakers elsewhere). The sound [ɔ] for THOUGHT, though, comes across to me as strictly British-sounding. Obviously, these are all only my impressions (strong ones), so the important question is: Are there any sources to confirm any of these as GA realizations? Wolfdog ( talk) 21:23, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
Turning to the question of the realization of /ɑ/ and /ɔ/, we can say that where they contrast in the GenAm area /ɑ/ is usually open (retracted) central unrounded (much as RP /ɑː/), while /ɔ/ is a lightly rounded half-open back [ɔ] (and therefore opener and less rounded than the usual RP /ɔː/). In the north-central area, however, /ɑ/ tends to be fronted to [a̠] or even [a]. The THOUGHT vowel, in turn, is often as open as [ɒ], particularly away from the Atlantic coast. (In eastern New England, though, it is [ɒ], with loss of the LOT-THOUGHT opposition.) But in Philadelphia and Baltimore, as also in New York City, it is no opener than [ɔ], and is well rounded.
I think "appreciable" is the key. In fact a GA back vowel chart on p. xvi shows /ɒː/ (unmerged THOUGHT) exactly halfway between the cardinal [ɒ] and [ɔ], while /ɔː/ (NORTH) is the cardinal [ɔ].There is considerable variability in GenAm vowels in the open back area. LPD follows tradition in distinguishing the vowel of lot lɑːt from that of thought θɒːt. (Note, though, that other books generally use the symbols ɑ, ɔ, or ah, ɔh respectively.) However, some Americans do not distinguish these two vowel sounds, using the same vowel sound in both sets of words; so a secondary AmE pronunciation with ɑː is given for all words having ɒː. LPD also makes provision of a difference between the vowel of thought θɒːt and that of north nɔːrθ (the symbol ɔː, implying a closer quality, like RP ɔː, being shown for AmE only after r); but many speakers do not make an appreciable difference between these qualities. (p. xiv)
Any vowel symbol with no diacritic, when describing the exact phonetic quality of a vowel, is by default taken to be that of the cardinal ones, correct? So just [ɒ] with no diacritic would be too open. This is what I implied the last I replied, and I just assumed Mr KEBAB would make this point so I didn't bother.
I also would like to reiterate that Wells' post is simply describing the AmE THOUGHT to be opener than the RP THOUGHT, but not necessarily than the cardinal [ɔ]. And as we know, the RP THOUGHT is closer than the cardinal [ɔ], sometimes rather closer to [o], so I just don't understand how the post could be used as a source to support the transcription [ɔ̞], regardless of whether a blog could be used as an RS or not (if anything, LPD1 p. xvi is such a source we could use to say it's [ɔ̞]). Nardog ( talk) 06:31, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
Any vowel symbol with no diacritic, when describing the exact phonetic quality of a vowel, is by default taken to be that of the cardinal ones, correct?Yes, that or a vowel similar in quality to the respective cardinal vowel. We need to remember that the cardinal vowel system is something that is obviously imperfect and to a certain extent purely subjective (unless we're talking about Luciano Canepari who obviously has a godlike hearing, no? ;))
So just [ɒ] with no diacritic would be too open.See, this is controversial. Acoustically, the cardinal [ɒ] itself is a near-open vowel between [ɑ] and [ɔ]. By that logic [ɒ] is a narrow transcription of GA /ɔ/. But that clashes with the cardinal vowel chart which gives the same space for rounded and unrounded vowels, instead of near-front to back and close to near-open for rounded vowels and front to near-back (front to back in the case of the fully open cardinals [a, ɑ]) and close to open for unrounded vowels. That is defendable because the cardinal vowel chart itself (as we know it today) isn't an accurate representation of where exactly vowels are made in the mouth, just an abstraction. But we should remember that the acoustic difference between the cardinals [ɒ] and [ɔ] is considerably smaller than the difference between the cardinals [ɔ] and [o]. This is partially because [ɒ] uses the same or very similar type of rounding as [ɔ], whereas [o] does not.
And as we know, the RP THOUGHT is closer than the cardinal [ɔ], sometimes rather closer to [o], so I just don't understand how the post could be used as a source to support the transcription [ɔ̞]To me, that post isn't ambiguous at all. To write [ɔ̞] to mean [ɔ] would be considerably redundant and simply wrong in narrow transcription (which Wells used in that particular case). To me, the post unambiguously states that RP /ɔː/ is above open-mid and more rounded than the corresponding cardinal vowel, whereas GA /ɔ/ is below open-mid and less rounded than the cardinal [ɔ]. Don't forget that he also wrote In the first edition of LPD I actually represented the AmE THOUGHT vowel as ɒː, differently from BrE ɔː, which would have pleased Bao Zhi-kun. Why would that please his reader if the GA vowel were open-mid?
That is defendable because the cardinal vowel chart itself (as we know it today) isn't an accurate representation of where exactly vowels are made in the mouth, just an abstraction.doesn't make a lot of sense because the cardinal [ɒ] is made exactly where the cardinal [ɑ] is. The fact that it's higher than [ɑ] on formant charts is the direct result of it being rounded. But still - I've proved that the near-open variant is far more common in world's languages and I still think that it would make at least some sense if we placed the cardinal [ɒ] above the cardinal [ɑ]. Mr KEBAB ( talk) 03:13, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
@ Wolfdog:, what are your arguments/proof for this edit? My argument is that /k/ unambiguously belongs to the first syllable as it clips the preceding sequence of sonorants /ɜr/, just as in RP. The source is LPD. Mr KEBAB ( talk) 02:50, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
Hmm, maybe it's variable. The CEPD transcription is /ˈwɜː.kə, ˈwɜ˞ː.kɚ/. But the corresponding RP recording clearly says /ˈwɜːk.ə/ ([ˈwɜkə], with a short vowel). If anything, it's the LPD recording that has a longer vowel, yet it transcribes that word /ˈwɜːk.ə/... Mr KEBAB ( talk) 07:35, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on General American. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:46, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
An anon keeps changing /oʊr/ to /or/ in one particular place in the article, creating inconsistencies in phonemic transcription. He quite clearly mistakes allophones for phonemes. It's understood that the FORCE vowel isn't a phonetic closing diphthong + [ɹ] but a close-mid monophthong + [ɹ]. If we were to change /oʊr/ to /or/ where the anon changes it, we must change /oʊ/ to /o/ in the whole article, and that will create discrepancies with /eɪ/, which we shouldn't change to /e/ since that's the most common representation of /ɛ/ in the British tradition. Plus, /oʊ/ and /eɪ/ are most commonly diphthongal, not monophthongal. There's no reason for that change. Mr KEBAB ( talk) 22:17, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
The person who wrote about it seems to have lumped together glottal stops, pre-glottalized alveolar stops and glottaly masked alveolar stops, which are different sounds. For now, I've removed what I could. Mr KEBAB ( talk) 15:50, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 8 |
I have a doubt whether Canadian raising actually would raise the diphthong [äɪ] to [ʌɪ]. The vowel [ʌ] is pronounced too far back in the mouth. Could anybody verify this claim? I don't need a source, only somebody's word. Thank you. LakeKayak ( talk) 02:30, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
I beg your pardon, sir. I am little confused. I fail to see the relevancy of the audios. Could you please elaborate? Thank you. LakeKayak ( talk) 00:43, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Oh, you lost me for a second there. Thank you, sir. LakeKayak ( talk) 02:33, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
@ Wolfdog: When referring to the audio for [ʌ], which audio are you talking about? I'm a little confused. Do you mean the audio on this page for [ʌ~ɐ] or the audio [ʌ] on IPA vowel chart with audio. I can see the former as the nucleus for the raised [äɪ] more than the latter. LakeKayak ( talk) 03:15, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
@ Bisnic95: I beg your pardon, sir/ma'am. I don't recall sharing any page. Furthermore, I don't think I even know how to share a page. LakeKayak ( talk) 15:52, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
@ Bisnic95: As another note, I would prefer to say on topic. Whether or not Canadian English is a branch of American English is of little to no relevancy to my question. Thank you. LakeKayak ( talk) 15:57, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Thank you. LakeKayak ( talk) 02:51, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
To my knowledge, in American English, the initial "l" still remains un-velarized. Regardless of whether or not this is correct, I am confused either way. Can anybody help me out? Thank you. LakeKayak ( talk) 00:00, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
There is still a distinction made between the "l" in "little" and the "l" in "all." The latter sound fainter than the former. If the former is still velarized, then how is pronounced? LakeKayak ( talk) 02:47, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
I think I might know my real issue. The page Dental, alveolar and postalveolar lateral approximants says that the "clear l" appears in New York City English in the word "let", with a citation from Wells provided. I live within the New York metropolitan area, and I may have a slight influence from the accent. LakeKayak ( talk) 03:16, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
@ Wolfdog: Do you happen to have an audio recording of a speaker with the velarized initial "l"? I want to see if I can hear the difference.
I wouldn't even go as far to say all of the speakers have some degree of velarization of the initial "l." SeanMauch seems to show little to no velarization. Either way, I think I can hear the difference. Thank you. LakeKayak ( talk) 20:08, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
It can be noted that I am not the best analyzer. However, I do thank you all for your help. LakeKayak ( talk) 16:59, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
This article attempts to perpetuate the myth of the California accent as the source of the "General American" accent. It is a myth Hollywood enjoys contributing to but it is untrue. Californians have historically had Western accents (Howdy y'all). Hollywood and NYC promoted the central Midwestern accent as a standard accent and this rapidly became the standard in broadcast and film (indeed media outlets deliberately hired a lot of people out of the Iowa, Nebraska, etc. specifically for their accents). Over the years regional accents have been fading around the country, moreso in the South and West and less so in the Northeast. California in particular, because of its rapid immigration during the 20th century has seen more of a dulling of the native accent over the years than some other regions. But you still hear the native accent out in the rural areas (and, yes, people in California still use y'all out in the country and in some of the suburbs, though not as much as in the past).
This myth should not continue to be promoted.
--MC — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.131.2.3 ( talk) 19:15, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
@ 141.131.2.3: Do you happen to have a source to support your claim? If so, it will be possible to alter the article in order to tell the story with the most accuracy. If not, you only would need to find one. Either way, this seems to be an easy fix. LakeKayak ( talk) 01:00, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
I'm about to replace the current vowel charts with [1] and [2]. The problems with the current charts I have are:
The vowel charts I'd like to use are from Wells's Accents of English. They're not perfect either, but they're way better than the current charts. Revert me if there are any objections, but I think my reasoning is pretty good. Mr KEBAB ( talk) 05:24, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
Why would we not use the IPAc-en template when it is the standard for all of Wikipedia? Wolfdog ( talk) 16:00, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
Is there any reason to change the second sentence of the article, "Due to General American accents being widespread throughout the United States, they are sometimes, though controversially, classified as Standard American English" to something more like "Due to the perception of General American being widespread throughout the United States, it is sometimes, though controversially, classified/known as Standard American English"? I italicized the word "perception" to show that this is the major addition here. This seems like a logical edit to me, but I was wondering what others thought first. The change from plural ("General American accents") to singular ("General American") also seems cleaner to me, though honestly I also kind of like the plural, because it reinforces the idea that GenAm is not just "one thing". Wolfdog ( talk) 14:00, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
I was wondering whether anyone could stir up any sources to help either lend credibility to the following sentence or else unearth the reality of how General American "spread":
The fact that a broad "Midwestern" accent became the basis of what is General American is often attributed to the mass migration of Midwestern farmers to California from where the accent system spread,[citation needed][disputed – discuss] since California speech itself became prevalent in nationally syndicated films and media via the Hollywood film industry.[disputed – discuss]
The sentence has remained without much-needed citations for a while (as other frustrated users have pointed out), and, though its claim seems reasonable to me, it could just as likely be completely inaccurate. Does anyone know of any sources that could verify or counter? Thanks! Wolfdog ( talk) 15:10, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
Hi all. Mr KEBAB and I have been discussing /ɔː/, or the THOUGHT vowel, in General American. Wells indeed represents it with the phoneme /ɔ/, though I don't think I've ever heard any American use that as the actual realization, myself a lifelong American. I've heard [ɑ] (for speakers with the cot-caught merger), [ɒ~ɒə] (my own personal realization and common to many speakers who have the merger in perception but not production, or who have no merger at all, like myself), and a definitely diphthongal [ɔə] (as heard by speakers in the Northeast -- New York City, Philly, Connecticut, Rhode Island, etc. by otherwise GA speakers -- and in older US speakers elsewhere). The sound [ɔ] for THOUGHT, though, comes across to me as strictly British-sounding. Obviously, these are all only my impressions (strong ones), so the important question is: Are there any sources to confirm any of these as GA realizations? Wolfdog ( talk) 21:23, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
Turning to the question of the realization of /ɑ/ and /ɔ/, we can say that where they contrast in the GenAm area /ɑ/ is usually open (retracted) central unrounded (much as RP /ɑː/), while /ɔ/ is a lightly rounded half-open back [ɔ] (and therefore opener and less rounded than the usual RP /ɔː/). In the north-central area, however, /ɑ/ tends to be fronted to [a̠] or even [a]. The THOUGHT vowel, in turn, is often as open as [ɒ], particularly away from the Atlantic coast. (In eastern New England, though, it is [ɒ], with loss of the LOT-THOUGHT opposition.) But in Philadelphia and Baltimore, as also in New York City, it is no opener than [ɔ], and is well rounded.
I think "appreciable" is the key. In fact a GA back vowel chart on p. xvi shows /ɒː/ (unmerged THOUGHT) exactly halfway between the cardinal [ɒ] and [ɔ], while /ɔː/ (NORTH) is the cardinal [ɔ].There is considerable variability in GenAm vowels in the open back area. LPD follows tradition in distinguishing the vowel of lot lɑːt from that of thought θɒːt. (Note, though, that other books generally use the symbols ɑ, ɔ, or ah, ɔh respectively.) However, some Americans do not distinguish these two vowel sounds, using the same vowel sound in both sets of words; so a secondary AmE pronunciation with ɑː is given for all words having ɒː. LPD also makes provision of a difference between the vowel of thought θɒːt and that of north nɔːrθ (the symbol ɔː, implying a closer quality, like RP ɔː, being shown for AmE only after r); but many speakers do not make an appreciable difference between these qualities. (p. xiv)
Any vowel symbol with no diacritic, when describing the exact phonetic quality of a vowel, is by default taken to be that of the cardinal ones, correct? So just [ɒ] with no diacritic would be too open. This is what I implied the last I replied, and I just assumed Mr KEBAB would make this point so I didn't bother.
I also would like to reiterate that Wells' post is simply describing the AmE THOUGHT to be opener than the RP THOUGHT, but not necessarily than the cardinal [ɔ]. And as we know, the RP THOUGHT is closer than the cardinal [ɔ], sometimes rather closer to [o], so I just don't understand how the post could be used as a source to support the transcription [ɔ̞], regardless of whether a blog could be used as an RS or not (if anything, LPD1 p. xvi is such a source we could use to say it's [ɔ̞]). Nardog ( talk) 06:31, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
Any vowel symbol with no diacritic, when describing the exact phonetic quality of a vowel, is by default taken to be that of the cardinal ones, correct?Yes, that or a vowel similar in quality to the respective cardinal vowel. We need to remember that the cardinal vowel system is something that is obviously imperfect and to a certain extent purely subjective (unless we're talking about Luciano Canepari who obviously has a godlike hearing, no? ;))
So just [ɒ] with no diacritic would be too open.See, this is controversial. Acoustically, the cardinal [ɒ] itself is a near-open vowel between [ɑ] and [ɔ]. By that logic [ɒ] is a narrow transcription of GA /ɔ/. But that clashes with the cardinal vowel chart which gives the same space for rounded and unrounded vowels, instead of near-front to back and close to near-open for rounded vowels and front to near-back (front to back in the case of the fully open cardinals [a, ɑ]) and close to open for unrounded vowels. That is defendable because the cardinal vowel chart itself (as we know it today) isn't an accurate representation of where exactly vowels are made in the mouth, just an abstraction. But we should remember that the acoustic difference between the cardinals [ɒ] and [ɔ] is considerably smaller than the difference between the cardinals [ɔ] and [o]. This is partially because [ɒ] uses the same or very similar type of rounding as [ɔ], whereas [o] does not.
And as we know, the RP THOUGHT is closer than the cardinal [ɔ], sometimes rather closer to [o], so I just don't understand how the post could be used as a source to support the transcription [ɔ̞]To me, that post isn't ambiguous at all. To write [ɔ̞] to mean [ɔ] would be considerably redundant and simply wrong in narrow transcription (which Wells used in that particular case). To me, the post unambiguously states that RP /ɔː/ is above open-mid and more rounded than the corresponding cardinal vowel, whereas GA /ɔ/ is below open-mid and less rounded than the cardinal [ɔ]. Don't forget that he also wrote In the first edition of LPD I actually represented the AmE THOUGHT vowel as ɒː, differently from BrE ɔː, which would have pleased Bao Zhi-kun. Why would that please his reader if the GA vowel were open-mid?
That is defendable because the cardinal vowel chart itself (as we know it today) isn't an accurate representation of where exactly vowels are made in the mouth, just an abstraction.doesn't make a lot of sense because the cardinal [ɒ] is made exactly where the cardinal [ɑ] is. The fact that it's higher than [ɑ] on formant charts is the direct result of it being rounded. But still - I've proved that the near-open variant is far more common in world's languages and I still think that it would make at least some sense if we placed the cardinal [ɒ] above the cardinal [ɑ]. Mr KEBAB ( talk) 03:13, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
@ Wolfdog:, what are your arguments/proof for this edit? My argument is that /k/ unambiguously belongs to the first syllable as it clips the preceding sequence of sonorants /ɜr/, just as in RP. The source is LPD. Mr KEBAB ( talk) 02:50, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
Hmm, maybe it's variable. The CEPD transcription is /ˈwɜː.kə, ˈwɜ˞ː.kɚ/. But the corresponding RP recording clearly says /ˈwɜːk.ə/ ([ˈwɜkə], with a short vowel). If anything, it's the LPD recording that has a longer vowel, yet it transcribes that word /ˈwɜːk.ə/... Mr KEBAB ( talk) 07:35, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on General American. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:46, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
An anon keeps changing /oʊr/ to /or/ in one particular place in the article, creating inconsistencies in phonemic transcription. He quite clearly mistakes allophones for phonemes. It's understood that the FORCE vowel isn't a phonetic closing diphthong + [ɹ] but a close-mid monophthong + [ɹ]. If we were to change /oʊr/ to /or/ where the anon changes it, we must change /oʊ/ to /o/ in the whole article, and that will create discrepancies with /eɪ/, which we shouldn't change to /e/ since that's the most common representation of /ɛ/ in the British tradition. Plus, /oʊ/ and /eɪ/ are most commonly diphthongal, not monophthongal. There's no reason for that change. Mr KEBAB ( talk) 22:17, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
The person who wrote about it seems to have lumped together glottal stops, pre-glottalized alveolar stops and glottaly masked alveolar stops, which are different sounds. For now, I've removed what I could. Mr KEBAB ( talk) 15:50, 10 November 2017 (UTC)