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Conversion therapy, or the "theraputic approach", as it was called, is not a safe or effective treatment for gender dysphoria. [1] [2] [3] Including in the lede gives it undue weight, so I recommend we remove it per WP:NPOV.
Also, while there might be value in having a section on the history of gender dysphoria in children, if the entire section is going to be on conversion therapy, we should just call the section that. I saw that there was some unresolved prior discussion on this, so to avoid an edit war-by-proxy, I'm bringing it up here again instead of boldly editing.
And also I'm including this here too because it's about this topic so any edits should be coordinated, there seems to be a page structure issue in the Society and culture section -it seems that this was either supposed to be a heading 3 under History, or for some reason the entire section is dedicated to what one person seems to think on the issue, which again raises undue weight concerns. I recommend restructuring or removing that section. Egefeyzi ( talk) 01:46, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
References
{{
cite conference}}
: |archive-date=
/ |archive-url=
timestamp mismatch; 2022-07-04 suggested (
help)
Apologies for any missteps, infrequent editor and first-time commenter.
I've seen the "Persistence" body used in full or part on another page before, and while I can't recall it precisely, prolific editor @ Crossroads raised multiple valid objections and then the page was still changed to match this topic body after seeming consensus against it. Seeing it here again, I felt compelled to leave a comment, but I recognized @ TheTranarchist from their exchanges with Crossroads, and I'm not looking to start any fights. I understand the policy of assumption of good faith, but I hope that given the issue I am raising, it is acceptable to politely share my impression of the edit wars and relevant actors. Although I suppose from reading her about me, she is happily combative, which I know is necessary at times. I leave the above "their" in place as a show of good faith: I went to read your page after I decided to tag you and Crossroads, I learned your pronouns in the process, and - as anyone should - I instantly began to use them.
To preface everything, I think it is important to acknowledge the implicit validity in transitioning and trans people in general. And, unrelated, it is relevant to this topic that sensitivity around the evidenced reality that many youth (group in question) have for years demonstrated the possibility (and, as cited in text, propensity) to desist in their feelings of gender incongruence / dysphoria / etc.
The "Persistence" body proceeds as follows:
1. An out of context (with the rest of the body) quote suggesting gender is "stable" by age four.
2. A paragraph-opening sentence, quoted verbatim: "If gender dysphoria persists during puberty, it is very likely permanent." - note this already calls into question the first paragraph; clearly, if one's gender and feelings around and from it continues to change even around puberty, trying to set up a belief in a "stable sense of...gender" "by age four" is unreasonable.
3. Following 2. (same paragraph), the verbiage changes from "during puberty" to "through puberty", continuing the trend of revolving goalposts. Otherwise, the content here is of good quality, and I recognize and affirm the "intensity" and "are" versus "wish" points.
4. The next massive (separate problem) paragraph is most obvious through proportions, aside from the overt "(since debunked)" at the very start. Ignoring the disparate quality of the lower citations and single-author opinion pieces, this paragraph is 460 characters (including 8 citations) speaking to a few of the studies showing a high desistence rate followed by 1926 characters (including 4 citations, ~10% of the above) of unquoted apparent original research with only end-of-paragraph citations.
5. The next (final) paragraph is insultingly poor. Not only is it a bland rehash of the prior paragraph with original claims of "biased research" "disproving the results of the prior studies", the two citations are single-author borderline opinion pieces, and the one that is closest to credible is a "literature review", stylized at the start of the paragraph as a "systematic review of research."
I cannot be invested enough to fight this battle myself, and I think it would be ethically dubious to directly place text into the wiki as someone active in the field, but I implore the understandably-dedicated, understandably-polarized (subject of polarization, by the many opponents of trans rights) editors to reevaluate your own biases. Gender dysphoria is variable and multifactorial, to say the least. Acknowledging that neither invalidates nor undermines trans people or trans identities, and intellectual dishonesty not only hurts the greater cause and dissemination of knowledge, it is causing youth to bypass that critical self-understanding of "are" versus "wish" (referencing point 3, above). "If you, a youth, experience dysphoria, you are trans" - unqualified - is not true, and you must not lead people to that belief. "If you, a youth, experience a desire to be the opposite sex/gender, you are best served by transitioning" - unqualified - is not true, and you must not lead people to that belief. Sacrificing integrity to put on a stronger front for the public eye will backfire, and it is not a good way to be. Sadly, that is the state of a number of the ideological topics of this decade. It has become propaganda on both sides. 49.186.63.35 ( talk) 09:35, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
Of the three sources listed for the claim "Research on the long-term effects on brain development, cognitive function, fertility, and sexual function is limited." one is a newspaper article, another disagrees with that claim, and the third one from "Annals of Pediatric Endocrinology & Metabolism" is misquoted. It explains that research is limited specifically for the use of puberty blockers on trans youth and that controlled studies aren't common because they are considered unpractical and unethical.
What the author is explaining here is that it's very difficult to see the effects of puberty blockers on trans youth by using the usual double blind placebo controlled studies, because they're already the standard of care. Giving a group of patients placebo instead of the actual standard of care would be unethical, so these studies aren't contucted in the usual manner, and not frequently. When they are, longitudinal studies are conducted instead. The limited data we have seems to indicate the somewhat obvious conclusion of puberty blockers being helpful at preventing trans children from having their gender dysphoria worsened. [1]
Also it's important to know that puberty blockers have been used for a very long time to treat precocious puberty.
Overall, I don't like the sources cited for that claim, they don't support it. We should either find better sources or remove the claim entirely. Egefeyzi ( talk) 23:30, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
Ideal sources for biomedical information include: review articles (especially systematic reviews) published in reputable medical journals; academic and professional books written by experts in the relevant fields and from respected publishers; and guidelines or position statements from national or international expert bodies.Hist9600 ( talk) 19:57, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
References
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Gender dysphoria in children article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL |
Archives:
Index,
1,
2,
3Auto-archiving period: 30 days
![]() |
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
![]() | This page is not a forum for general discussion about Gender dysphoria in children. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Gender dysphoria in children at the Reference desk. |
![]() | Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting. |
![]() | A fact from Gender dysphoria in children appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 8 July 2008, and was viewed approximately 4,455 times (
disclaimer) (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Ideal sources for Wikipedia's health content are defined in the guideline
Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) and are typically
review articles. Here are links to possibly useful sources of information about Gender dysphoria in children.
|
Conversion therapy, or the "theraputic approach", as it was called, is not a safe or effective treatment for gender dysphoria. [1] [2] [3] Including in the lede gives it undue weight, so I recommend we remove it per WP:NPOV.
Also, while there might be value in having a section on the history of gender dysphoria in children, if the entire section is going to be on conversion therapy, we should just call the section that. I saw that there was some unresolved prior discussion on this, so to avoid an edit war-by-proxy, I'm bringing it up here again instead of boldly editing.
And also I'm including this here too because it's about this topic so any edits should be coordinated, there seems to be a page structure issue in the Society and culture section -it seems that this was either supposed to be a heading 3 under History, or for some reason the entire section is dedicated to what one person seems to think on the issue, which again raises undue weight concerns. I recommend restructuring or removing that section. Egefeyzi ( talk) 01:46, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
References
{{
cite conference}}
: |archive-date=
/ |archive-url=
timestamp mismatch; 2022-07-04 suggested (
help)
Apologies for any missteps, infrequent editor and first-time commenter.
I've seen the "Persistence" body used in full or part on another page before, and while I can't recall it precisely, prolific editor @ Crossroads raised multiple valid objections and then the page was still changed to match this topic body after seeming consensus against it. Seeing it here again, I felt compelled to leave a comment, but I recognized @ TheTranarchist from their exchanges with Crossroads, and I'm not looking to start any fights. I understand the policy of assumption of good faith, but I hope that given the issue I am raising, it is acceptable to politely share my impression of the edit wars and relevant actors. Although I suppose from reading her about me, she is happily combative, which I know is necessary at times. I leave the above "their" in place as a show of good faith: I went to read your page after I decided to tag you and Crossroads, I learned your pronouns in the process, and - as anyone should - I instantly began to use them.
To preface everything, I think it is important to acknowledge the implicit validity in transitioning and trans people in general. And, unrelated, it is relevant to this topic that sensitivity around the evidenced reality that many youth (group in question) have for years demonstrated the possibility (and, as cited in text, propensity) to desist in their feelings of gender incongruence / dysphoria / etc.
The "Persistence" body proceeds as follows:
1. An out of context (with the rest of the body) quote suggesting gender is "stable" by age four.
2. A paragraph-opening sentence, quoted verbatim: "If gender dysphoria persists during puberty, it is very likely permanent." - note this already calls into question the first paragraph; clearly, if one's gender and feelings around and from it continues to change even around puberty, trying to set up a belief in a "stable sense of...gender" "by age four" is unreasonable.
3. Following 2. (same paragraph), the verbiage changes from "during puberty" to "through puberty", continuing the trend of revolving goalposts. Otherwise, the content here is of good quality, and I recognize and affirm the "intensity" and "are" versus "wish" points.
4. The next massive (separate problem) paragraph is most obvious through proportions, aside from the overt "(since debunked)" at the very start. Ignoring the disparate quality of the lower citations and single-author opinion pieces, this paragraph is 460 characters (including 8 citations) speaking to a few of the studies showing a high desistence rate followed by 1926 characters (including 4 citations, ~10% of the above) of unquoted apparent original research with only end-of-paragraph citations.
5. The next (final) paragraph is insultingly poor. Not only is it a bland rehash of the prior paragraph with original claims of "biased research" "disproving the results of the prior studies", the two citations are single-author borderline opinion pieces, and the one that is closest to credible is a "literature review", stylized at the start of the paragraph as a "systematic review of research."
I cannot be invested enough to fight this battle myself, and I think it would be ethically dubious to directly place text into the wiki as someone active in the field, but I implore the understandably-dedicated, understandably-polarized (subject of polarization, by the many opponents of trans rights) editors to reevaluate your own biases. Gender dysphoria is variable and multifactorial, to say the least. Acknowledging that neither invalidates nor undermines trans people or trans identities, and intellectual dishonesty not only hurts the greater cause and dissemination of knowledge, it is causing youth to bypass that critical self-understanding of "are" versus "wish" (referencing point 3, above). "If you, a youth, experience dysphoria, you are trans" - unqualified - is not true, and you must not lead people to that belief. "If you, a youth, experience a desire to be the opposite sex/gender, you are best served by transitioning" - unqualified - is not true, and you must not lead people to that belief. Sacrificing integrity to put on a stronger front for the public eye will backfire, and it is not a good way to be. Sadly, that is the state of a number of the ideological topics of this decade. It has become propaganda on both sides. 49.186.63.35 ( talk) 09:35, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
Of the three sources listed for the claim "Research on the long-term effects on brain development, cognitive function, fertility, and sexual function is limited." one is a newspaper article, another disagrees with that claim, and the third one from "Annals of Pediatric Endocrinology & Metabolism" is misquoted. It explains that research is limited specifically for the use of puberty blockers on trans youth and that controlled studies aren't common because they are considered unpractical and unethical.
What the author is explaining here is that it's very difficult to see the effects of puberty blockers on trans youth by using the usual double blind placebo controlled studies, because they're already the standard of care. Giving a group of patients placebo instead of the actual standard of care would be unethical, so these studies aren't contucted in the usual manner, and not frequently. When they are, longitudinal studies are conducted instead. The limited data we have seems to indicate the somewhat obvious conclusion of puberty blockers being helpful at preventing trans children from having their gender dysphoria worsened. [1]
Also it's important to know that puberty blockers have been used for a very long time to treat precocious puberty.
Overall, I don't like the sources cited for that claim, they don't support it. We should either find better sources or remove the claim entirely. Egefeyzi ( talk) 23:30, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
Ideal sources for biomedical information include: review articles (especially systematic reviews) published in reputable medical journals; academic and professional books written by experts in the relevant fields and from respected publishers; and guidelines or position statements from national or international expert bodies.Hist9600 ( talk) 19:57, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
References