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There is information(paras)in the lead that doesn't seem to belong there and is abundantly covered in appropriate sections.
"with mechanised infantry, armor, and artillery units, supported by helicopter gunships, entering Gaza.[52][53]"
This is trivial information that only military buffs would find attractive. Too much details that only those who are actively researching for that stuff would bother to look for.
I propose to move it to the Israeli military section.
"International reactions during the conflict have included calls for an immediate ceasefire as in the United Nations Security Council Resolution 1860, and concern about the humanitarian situation in the Gaza Strip and the hindrances in delivering aid.[59][60][61][62]"
We don't need to let the world know that the world have reacted on this matter. Again, details that should be included somewhere else.
I propose to move it to International reactions if it's not already there.
"Human rights groups and aid organisations have accused Hamas and Israel of war crimes and called for independent investigations and lawsuits.[66][67][68][69]"
This is bound to happen in ANY war. And since both sides react to these calls differently and neither side see an important role(or practical) for the international community to take(otherwise this conflict would have been resolved) this information belongs in the adequate section but not in the lead.
Also, currently information that happened after the ceasefire is mentioned before the ceasefire was announced.
The 2008ā2009 IsraelāGaza conflict, part of the ongoing IsraeliāPalestinian conflict[22], started when Israel launched a military campaign in the Gaza Strip on 27 December 2008. Codenamed Operation Cast Lead, the aim was to stop Hamas rocket attacks on southern Israel and included the targeting of Hamas' members, the police force, and infrastructure.[24] In the Arab World, the conflict has been described as the Gaza Massacre.[25]
The time is irrelevant, again only military buffs would find that information valuable. Also fixed the language a bit for it to run smoothly. Removed the Hebrew and Arabic names. Can someone even say why is that notable in this english version?
A fragile six-month truce between Hamas and Israel expired on 19 December 2008.[26] Hamas and Israel could not agree on conditions to extend the truce.[27][28][29][30][31] Hamas blamed Israel for not lifting the Gaza Strip blockade, and for a purported Israeli raid on a cross-border tunnel in the Gaza Strip on November 4[32], which it held constituted a serious breach of the truce.[33][34] Israel accuses Hamas of violating the truce citing the frequent rocket and mortar attacks on Israel cities.[35]
The Israeli operation begun with an intense bombardment of the Gaza Strip,[36][37][38][39][40][41][42] targeting Hamas bases, police training camps[43], police headquarters and offices.[44][45] Civilian infrastructure, including mosques, houses and schools, were also attacked. Israel said many of these buildings stocked weapons.[46] Hamas intensified its rocket and mortar attacks against targets in Israel throughout the conflict, hitting such cities as Beersheba and Ashdod, that weren't previously targeted.[47][48][49][50][51] On January 3, 2009, the Israeli Defence Forces ground invasion began, with mechanised infantry, armor, and artillery units, supported by helicopter gunships, entering Gaza.[52][53]
The number of combatant and non-combatant casualties is a subject of ongoing contention.[54] It has been difficult to verify casualties figures due to the limited amount of journalists allowed in Gaza during the conflict.[55]
Israel announced a unilateral ceasefire on January 18 which came in effect at 0000 UTC (2 a.m. local time). Hamas offered its own one-week unilateral ceasefire.[63][64] On 21 January, Israel completed its withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.[65]
In the days following the ceasefire, the BBC reported that more than 400,000 Gazans were left without running water.[56] The BBC further reported that 4000 homes had been ruined, leaving tens of thousands of people homeless.[57] An EU official described the situation in Gaza as "abominable" and "indescribable".[58]
Took away Israeli Air force and navy. Also noted that Beersheba and Ashdod were targeted for the first time. reference here
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas-qassam.htm.
The 2008ā2009 IsraelāGaza conflict, part of the ongoing IsraeliāPalestinian conflict[22], started when Israel launched a military campaign in the Gaza Strip on 27 December 2008. Codenamed Operation Cast Lead, the aim was to stop Hamas rocket attacks on southern Israel and included the targeting of Hamas' members, the police force, and infrastructure.[24] In the Arab World, the conflict has been described as the Gaza Massacre.[25]
A fragile six-month truce between Hamas and Israel expired on 19 December 2008.[26] Hamas and Israel could not agree on conditions to extend the truce.[27][28][29][30][31] Hamas blamed Israel for not lifting the Gaza Strip blockade, and for a purported Israeli raid on a cross-border tunnel in the Gaza Strip on November 4[32], which it held constituted a serious breach of the truce.[33][34] Israel accuses Hamas of violating the truce citing the frequent rocket and mortar attacks on Israel cities.[35]
The Israeli operation begun with an intense bombardment of the Gaza Strip,[36][37][38][39][40][41][42] targeting Hamas bases, police training camps[43], police headquarters and offices.[44][45] Civilian infrastructure, including mosques, houses and schools, were also attacked. Israel said many of these buildings stocked weapons.[46] Hamas intensified its rocket and mortar attacks against targets in Israel throughout the conflict, hitting such cities as Beersheba and Ashdod, that weren't previously targeted.[47][48][49][50][51] On January 3, 2009, the Israeli Defence Forces ground invasion began.52][53]
Israel announced a unilateral ceasefire on January 18 which came in effect at 0000 UTC (2 a.m. local time). Hamas offered its own one-week unilateral ceasefire.[63][64] On 21 January, Israel completed its withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.[65]
In the days following the ceasefire, the BBC reported that more than 400,000 Gazans were left without running water.[56] The BBC further reported that 4000 homes had been ruined, leaving tens of thousands of people homeless.[57] An EU official described the situation in Gaza as "abominable" and "indescribable".[58]
The number of combatant and non-combatant casualties is a subject of ongoing contention.[54] It has been difficult to verify casualties figures due to the limited amount of journalists allowed in Gaza during the conflict.[55]
Comments? Suggestions? Let them be known.
Cryptonio (
talk)
06:33, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Ez on the bold? i hear ya. Cryptonio ( talk) 06:38, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Had to take the tanks etc out from the proposal. Cryptonio ( talk) 06:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Man, it couldn't be more simple(i did break it down) let me tell you.
Para 1 and 2 stay relatively the same. The native names could stay i guess.
New Para 1 and 2
The 2008ā2009 IsraelāGaza conflict, part of the ongoing IsraeliāPalestinian conflict[22], started when Israel launched a military campaign in the Gaza Strip on 27 December 2008. Codenamed Operation Cast Lead, the aim was to stop Hamas rocket attacks on southern Israel and included the targeting of Hamas' members, the police force, and infrastructure.[24] In the Arab World, the conflict has been described as the Gaza Massacre.[25]
With the Hebrew and Arabic names included.
A fragile six-month truce between Hamas and Israel expired on 19 December 2008.[26] Hamas and Israel could not agree on conditions to extend the truce.[27][28][29][30][31] Hamas blamed Israel for not lifting the Gaza Strip blockade, and for a purported Israeli raid on a cross-border tunnel in the Gaza Strip on November 4[32], which it held constituted a serious breach of the truce.[33][34] Israel accuses Hamas of violating the truce citing the frequent rocket and mortar attacks on Israel cities.[35]
I don't think i touched Para 2
New Para 3
The Israeli operation begun with an intense bombardment of the Gaza Strip,[36][37][38][39][40][41][42] targeting Hamas bases, police training camps[43], police headquarters and offices.[44][45] Civilian infrastructure, including mosques, houses and schools, were also attacked. Israel said many of these buildings stocked weapons.[46] Hamas intensified its rocket and mortar attacks against targets in Israel throughout the conflict, hitting such cities as Beersheba and Ashdod, that weren't previously targeted.[47][48][49][50][51] On January 3, 2009, the Israeli Defence Forces ground invasion began.52][53]
Took away Israeli Air force and navy. Also noted that Beersheba and Ashdod were targeted for the first time. reference here http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas-qassam.htm.
New Para 4, 5, 6.
Israel announced a unilateral ceasefire on January 18 which came in effect at 0000 UTC (2 a.m. local time). Hamas offered its own one-week unilateral ceasefire.[63][64] On 21 January, Israel completed its withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.[65]
In the days following the ceasefire, the BBC reported that more than 400,000 Gazans were left without running water.[56] The BBC further reported that 4000 homes had been ruined, leaving tens of thousands of people homeless.[57] An EU official described the situation in Gaza as "abominable" and "indescribable".[58]
The number of combatant and non-combatant casualties is a subject of ongoing contention.[54] It has been difficult to verify casualties figures due to the limited amount of journalists allowed in Gaza during the conflict.[55]
I took away the para about the international reaction and the human rights claim. These were my explanations.
"We don't need to let the world know that the world have reacted on this matter. Again, details that should be included somewhere else."
"This is bound to happen in ANY war. And since both sides react to these calls differently and neither side see an important role(or practical) for the international community to take(otherwise this conflict would have been resolved) this information belongs in the adequate section but not in the lead."
How's it now? let me know.
Cryptonio (
talk)
07:04, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
I like a lot of your changes/simplifications. I would like to propose an additional one: that we remove the following quote from the lead: "An EU official described the situation in Gaza as "abominable" and "indescribable".[58]" Undoubtedly many EU and other international officials have opinions and descriptions of the situation in Gaza, but does this belong in the lead? Also, the quote provides no 'real' information/facts about the actual situation. If this quote does belong in the article, perhaps it should be moved elsewhere. Kinetochore ( talk) 09:38, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
PROTIP: WP:LEAD. I am all for WP:IAR, but only if it improves the encyclopedia - and the aberration of a lead we have clearly doesn't improve it. If we stuck to the rules maybe we would go somewhere.-- Cerejota ( talk) 17:04, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Not bad. I have only two comments. I hate the first sentence which is absolute jibberish and could so easily be fixed to say that the conflict escalated rather than started with the Israeli offensive. The only other point I would make has to do with Israel saying that Hamas stockpiled weapons in mosques, houses and schools. Are there any Gazan or independent sources acknowledging this to be true? If so it should be in there. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 02:46, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
<non-free image and copyright-violating link removed; non-free images can only be used in article spaces with appropriate fair-use rationales; copyright infringing links cannot be inserted on any space in Wikipedia. Please do not restore.>
From http://www.journalismethics.ca/online_journalism_ethics/photojournalism.htm -
"According to Al Tompkins from the Poynter Institute in the U.S., when deciding whether a photograph is too graphic for the paper, newsrooms should consider: āWhat is the real journalistic value of the photographs? What do they prove and why are they news? Do they dispel or affirm information the public had prior to seeing the images?ā By looking at the photos in terms of what they add to the news, editors should be able to determine whether publication is appropriate."
I will find further commentary of the use of graphic images. Franly, I watched a documentary where even Al Jazeera's and other Arabic TV news stations would not broadcast these graphic images. Why wikipedia editors insist on doing so beggars belief.
I will continue to campaign against this blatantly sick, gruesome, propagandistic practise.
And I would be saying the same thing if you were publishing the corpses of Israeli dead - which, I note with some bemusement, you never do.
Betacrucis ( talk) 15:29, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
If we are going to revisit this issue, this will end in bans. All am saying: questioning due weight, relevant, reliably sourced, free-licensed inclusion of images is prima facie disruptive. Its two images in casualties of faces and one image for the Zeitoun incident. Opposing this is stepping away from the reasonable, and I will predicatably result in the gallery being restored. Why Betacrucis insists on being disruptive is beyond me.-- Cerejota ( talk) 19:24, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
i can't help but acknowledge Nableezy's consistency in replacing estimates/opinion with facts and using them with arguments. Here:Ā :"You realize these were broadcast on Al-Jazeera right? That they are stills from a video released by Al-Jazeera. Please stop comparing them to propaganda and rotten.com. And there have been 15 Israeli deaths in this conflict as opposed to 1300+ Palestinians, it is logic, as well as due weight that we show that in its proper proportion."
What, so more Israeli's should die and that would make the war fair? Please leave your SOAPBOXING at the door, we don't know how many civilians have been killed and it is likely it is far less than 900. I like how you don't differentiate between civilian and militant, quite stealthy dare I say. Al-Jazeera while unfortunately is considered an RS, we should be prudent before blasting their b.s in this article. You want logical? Fine, it is owned by Qatar's despot ruler and their Western counterpart just quit on account of bloated corruption and bias. Yes, this is all POV and shouldn't be in the article but I'm just giving facts here. Cheers! Wikifan12345 ( talk) 01:56, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflict) You both calm down. The responses are way out of proportion. I suggest we all try to leave the soapboxy comparisons at the door and stick to the RS. And of course, stop arguing Al Jazeera is less reliable. I do not give a fuck about "truth", all I care about is verifiability. You all can take "the truth" and smoke it. Nableezy, stop the crap: you are picking on wikifan, using the codewords guaranteed to make him blow up... Seriously, the last few days it has been nasty watching both of you basically throw the WP:CIVIL rule book out. This. Stops. Nao. -- Cerejota ( talk) 02:22, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Strike-through is typed <s>like this</s> and ends up like this.
Nableezy (
talk)
02:29, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Everybody, I continue to go back to assuming good faith. I have to assume it because otherwise I will go quite mad.
Cdogsimmons, you said you would be in favor of including images of Israeli casualties. There are two problems: first, the Israeli media very rarely take such photos, particularly during the most gruesome attacks like suicide bombings. Secondly, I'd be against their inclusion for the very same reason: it is emotive and it is propagandistic. Wikifan is right to say that it is "war porn". It simply is.
They may have been broadcast on Al Jazeera, but they DO NOT belong in an encyclopaedia. Think for a minute.
I don't have time to look back at other articles' histories (like the 2nd intifada's page) which do not contain any such images, but I am quite certain that in the long run, pictures of dead people not only don't belong on this page, but they won't remain on this page, regardless of my input. They are undeserving of inclusion.
Let me illustrate further: if there was, heaven forbid, a suicide bombing in downtown Jerusalem today, I would oppose the inclusion of images of dead people.
I'll add one other thing: the photos seem to have been added without consensus. But I stress that I consider this a side issue. Betacrucis ( talk) 03:02, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Cpt, the one removed prior to this discussion starting, and i would then presume would be the problem, was the dead girl picture from the al-jazeera video, it is in the article now in the casualties section. Nableezy ( talk) 04:51, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Sean, if you believe anything I have said is "inconsistent with WP guidelines", then point it out, instead of using vaguely threatening language.
I am advocating treating this page the same as every other article on WP. Look at the pages for the First intifada, Second intifada, Operation grapes of wrath, 2006 Lebanon War. Think of any suicide bombing; pick one out of thin air - the Sbarro bombing, for instance, or the Dolphinarium bombing, the Passover massacre - no photos of dead people. None.
You can cite Al Jazeera all you like but Al Jazeera is not Wikipedia. These discussions have been had elsewhere. Why is this article different from all other articles? Betacrucis ( talk) 10:46, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
There are cultural reasons why there aren't really such pictures out there. But even if there were, I would oppose their inclusion. You have provided your own rationale for inclusion of such images, but I don't think that brings us closer to a more objective way of identifying what deserves inclusion and what doesn't. You are right that "objectionable" is a random term, but "notability" is not. I think an objective way of evaluating the inclusion of images can be (and may already have been) agreed-upon. I seek further dialogue on this. Betacrucis ( talk) 15:42, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
(EC)Not so, there are already a new set of rules for IP conflict based known as "discretionary sanctions," [1]. Further I know that there are admins who are actively discussing issues concerning such contentious areas, in hopes of putting some new guidelines and rules into place in order to make for a better editing environment. Obviously I believe Beta's points are well taken as I was banned from editing the article for my aggressive removal of those photographs based on objections to weight as well as some of their graphic nature. I do not believe that there ever a consensus (rough or otherwise) to include a certain number of photographs (ie balance) or what exactly those photos should illustrate, and how much weight (ie casualty ratio 1000-1 thus many more photos on the 1000 side) is appropriate (ie WP:UNDUE), what constitutes "war porn", what constitutes WP:CENSOR, what constitutes WP:RS in this situation, eg International Solidarity Movement Al-Jazeera or Flickr etc. I actually think that in order to prevent these questions from coming up time and again on this article and other I-P articles, that there should be some kind of dispute resolution on this, with an eye to establishing some WP:guidelines for future articles. Not quite sure how to go about this but if there is a willing admin lurking, perhaps he/she could guide us to the appropriate forum (RfC? RfA? mediation?) to save us from having to repeat ourselves endlessly on talk pages and improve the editing environment on this and other contentious articles. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 17:19, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I guess you don't read what I write, Nableezy. Now that's OK if you don't want to answer, but if you do answer you should read. I have said (repeatedly) (as have others) that I had a number of objections to the photographs, including balance and undue weight, the question of the reliablity of the sources and WP:NPOV. To insist as you do that my reasoning is simply WP:IDONTLIKEIT hardly seems fair or even assuming good faith under the circumstances. As to Jimbo, he said that pictures can be used to push a political agenda, which has also been the contention of a number of us here. I am not misrepresenting him in the slightest. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 23:49, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Firstly, Tundra, Wiki, and Darwish, settle down.
I think the arguments put in favor of the pictures are understandable. The argument over AJ being a RS is an unnecessary one. Let's assume for a moment that the pics are from a RS and that they are copyleft. Then I think we get to the question of what value these pictures add to the article? I don't think these pictures can be taken out of the cultural context in which they are being used today - generally, as propaganda. Yes, it is true that there have been photos taken at suicide bombings (there was a very short time during Intifada 2 when I believe it became official IL policy to broadcast them) but they are generally not used in the same way.
Cdogsimmons made a very interesting point: "There is a concern that filling this page up with pictures of dead people will look like propaganda which is not what this article is about. However, to fail to post any images of casualties, is also playing to a side of the conflict. There's a reason after all that Israel barred the international press from entering Gaza when the operations began. We need to find some common ground."
I think this shows crucial insight. And I really believe there is some common ground between, on the one hand, posting images of corpses and wounded children, and, on the other hand, not posting any images at all. Surely we can locate images that illustrate this conflict that we can agree on?
Betacrucis (
talk)
04:04, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
I may have misinterpreted your comment, Cryptonio; it does sound like you are trying to get back at another article which I am not familiar with. Nableezy, I understand your point about offense being no reason to remove an image; I will have to read through WP policy but prima facie it appears that an argument could be made for both inclusion and exclusion. Not so much exclusion as replacement. I appreciate that your view is in favor of inclusion of the images and that you feel that they are appropriate and informative; I think they are gratuitous and unnecessary.
Take a massacre that has nothing to do with this conflict - the
Virginia Tech massacre, for example. Not a single picture of dead or injured people. I think you will find that, unless there are exceptional circumstances, images of dead people are widely considered gratuitous unless there is some sort of overriding reason for their inclusion - such as notability or iconic status.
I think Wikifan is right that their inclusion is far from guaranteed in the long-run. As I've said, my strong sense is that these images cannot be removed from the context of the pro-Palestinian tendency to use such images for propaganda purposes. I think anybody reasonable, even a pro-Palestinian editor, recognizes the reality of this context.
Certainly there are shocking images that occasionally deserve inclusion. I can't recall if I've mentioned this already, but I note the images of
Mohammed al-Dura in the
Second Intifada article, and the bloodied hands image from the
Ramallah lynching. These are notable and iconic. But in general I cannot see a reason for the inclusion of such images, especially for a recent conflict in which emotions are high on both sides. We should be able to see this in its historic context and avoid using information or images that will no longer seem salient in a few years time.
I am eager to hear your thoughts on how these images add to the article.
Consensus may be overrated but as I understand it, it is policy. I have not removed the images because I've been warned that there are special sanctions in place, but I cannot see why the default position in the absence of consensus ought to be their inclusion.
By the way, I also cannot see the need for the current chart, whose figures are now well and truly outdated. But that's another topic.
By the way, Nableezy, check it out - I'm using "br"!
Betacrucis (
talk)
09:13, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
And I know people are going to cry about this line, at least some have in the past, but seriously, how cool is Al-Jazeera? What other organization gives away content for free like that? Sickest channel. Nableezy ( talk) 20:06, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
They claim that 1,338 died, nearly all of which they could explictly identify, and around 1/3 are non-combatants-- which would be around 450 deaths, not 1200 deaths with 250 non-combatant deaths as the article currently says. āPreceding unsigned comment added by The Squicks ( talk ā¢ contribs) 18:33, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
If you look at 2008ā2009_IsraelāGaza_conflict#References, there are about four reference tag errors. Can someone fix this as I do not want to get involved editing this very sensitive article. kilbad ( talk) 00:45, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
There were a good number of images in use on this talk page, many of which were, either by themselves, or as a result of the caption underneath them, likely to increase rather than decrease tension here. Some served no purpose except to inflame the discussion. In the interests of editorial harmony and acting as an uninvolved administrator, I have removed them all. CIreland ( talk) 12:32, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Most of the images were innocuous enough and cool, but the one that was reported was not. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 04:51, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
Ayin | |
---|---|
Phoenician | ayin |
Hebrew | ×¢ |
Aramaic | ayin |
Syriac | Ü„ |
Arabic | Ų¹ |
Phonemic representation | Ź |
Position in alphabet | 16 |
Numerical value | 70 |
Alphabetic derivatives of the Phoenician |
I know that we all have different opinions about what ought to make this article better. But I have a question for you: is there an article on this conflict that is reasonably acceptable to all of us (or at least almost all of us)?
I am still learning the ropes here, but it seems to me that more current articles tend to be highly unreliable, while some of the older articles are the result of greater consensus. I wonder whether we can't edit to a template? Much of the stuff we are talking about it well-worn territory, so to speak.
Your thoughts? Betacrucis ( talk) 10:54, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I think over time, the article will improve, particularly as the war becomes part of history and slowly (and sadly) is forgotten. Jandrews23jandrews23 ( talk) 16:45, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Sorry guys but I have to do this again. The first sentence reads: "The 2008ā2009 IsraelāGaza conflict, part of the ongoing IsraeliāPalestinian conflict[22], started on 27 December 2008 (11:30 a.m. local time; 9:30 a.m. UTC)[23] when Israel launched a military campaign in the Gaza Strip." Now while it is true that the the 2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict is part of the ongoing I-P conflict, it did not start when Israel launched Operation Cast Lead. It has been ongoing for the entire year. Why was there a "truce" -that was not honored- if there was no conflict going on? A truce for no reason? This wordage suggests that nothing happened prior to Israel's military campaign, which clearly is not so. It also works to frame the debate in a certain way, ie what is relevant to this conflict and what is not. It has been suggested for instance that issues surrounding Shalit's kidnapping and/or release are not relevant to this conflict because Israel did not specifically say she was launching Op CL in order to capture Shalit. It ignores comments in June of 2008 from Hamas that Shalit would not "see the light of day" unless Israel acceded to all of its demands. In fact, arbitrarily choosing a "start-date" of December 27th for this conflict is not neutral. The 2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict started January 1, 2008. It escalated on December 27, 2008. If we can't get the first sentence right, nothing will fall into place. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 04:03, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Tundra, please checkout this diff, in which you argue the contrary position - and in the context of that article, I would have agreed with you 100%. I think we should be clear that this article covers the topics that began with Operation Cast Least. The background links copiously and provides a general overview to the articles that cover the events before Operation Cast Lead. We all know this began with the Big Bang, the question is if we ar egoing to use the hyperlinked nature of a wiki to keep articles within discrete topics, or we are going to have unproductive edit wars because we feel the justifications for one side are not sufficiently covered. I know what my vote is. Fleas have little Fleas.-- Cerejota ( talk) 06:29, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
You are ignoring that 2008 IsraelāGaza conflict exists already and that there was consensus to merge into 2007ā2008 IsraelāGaza conflict (btw, near unanimous consensus for the merger). I hear what you are saying, but re-read what I am saying: there are other articles to which alls this information belongs, but this is not that article. In particular, ignoring 2008 IsraelāGaza conflict leaves me confused, as it is the natural place for all this information. This article covers the Gaza war, not the events before - even if we should provide a fair amount of background, as we already do. -- Cerejota ( talk) 16:49, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
I believe the "Gaza War" did not start with Israel's Op Cast Lead. Maybe we can get consensus on that? You don't have "truces" unless you have violence. This article is claiming that the Gaza War started with Israeli initiation of hostilities. What exactly is the difference between earlier airstrikes and Israeli incursions and Hamas rocket strikes and killing and kidnapping of soldiers pre 12/27/08 & post? Tundrabuggy ( talk) 02:33, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
The following source is an address by a UN official to the council/president: http://www.webcitation.org/5eVPe7S1A. I am curious as to the nature of this address- can we say that it reflects the UN, or just this official? And can we say that it is fact, or just opinion? I am actually asking here, I don't know and would like an answer.
Also, I disagree with the quotations used from the document. Quotations such as "on good days" and "endless haggling" are emotionally charged, and misrepresent the actual situation (since it would appear from these quotes that Israel withholds aid/supplies for no reason, not taking into account rocket attacks, etc)). It is doubtful that reliable sources have used these quotes to describe the situation, as they are ambiguous and open to interpretation (i.e. what is a good day? What constitutes endless haggling? etc) Kinetochore ( talk) 19:56, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
I was not so much concerned with the attribution of these quotations as with the use of them in this article. As I said above, I disagree with the the use of the quotes 'on "good days"' and 'after "endless haggling"'. They are vague, confusing, and very abstract (i.e. what is a good day? What constitutes endless haggling?). They mean to the reader whatever the reader wants them to mean (i.e. a good day is when the Israeli prime minister buys a new hat, endless haggling lasts exactly 6 hours, except on wednesdays when it lasts 8). They do not add anything to the article, and their removal would actually provide the reader with a greater understanding of the situation (an understanding that is not bogged down with unclear metaphors) Kinetochore ( talk) 06:00, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
I changed "on good days" quote to "at best", and removed the "endless haggling" quote. Meaning has not been changed, and clarity has improved. Do you object to these changes? Kinetochore ( talk) 10:41, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
Per Wikifan below: "It is my strong opinion that this occurrence needs its own section, titled "Internal violence"
Can we clarify who supports/opposes the current section:
Previous:
The very original was more or less the same in terms of message and it included far less details. This is weird considering the summary argument offered by some...
Awhile back we had a discussion, here:
not so productive
I personally think the current one is all right, except for this sentence: Israeli and Fatah sources reported that Hamas executed between 40 and 60 Palestinians and wounded 75.[219] Grammar is rather off, we know how many have died and the wounded from the original article.
The current argument, per "consensus", was actually a response to someone totally removing the information, retitling it "other casualties", and putting it in the casualty sections without referring to talk. I didn't think a new consensus was appropriate simply because there were less than 4 people in the discussion (really 3 actually), and the particularly, dare I say "uncivil" reasoning: Your BIAS did not allowed you to see that both Cptnono and Nableezy were on different sides on this issue and they were able to form a compromise. It is your ineptness that does not allow you to see through these things. Did Israel killed those people? no. Did Israel killed the border guard? yes. was the guard Palestinian? no. should it then go into Casualties? no. Did Fatah and Hamas started their struggle this year? no. Is it useful to even mention what happens between them? no. Can we afford them a couple of lines? yes. and so we did. You are trying to make this Fatah-Hamas battle as earth shattering, like as if capable of replacing everything else that goes on between Israel and Palestine. You are the least capable person that should make a judgment call on this issue. For you won't be able to see past the dump truck in your eyes. realize this, please.
I personally could not care less about the name calling because I can empathize (I mean, I'm the one who has to live with the ineptness), but seriously...I did involve myself and attempted to be as reasonable as I could but I think a new section was necessary just so everyone gets a voice and we all understand what's going on.
It is my strong opinion that this occurrence needs its own section, titled "Internal violence" (NOT other casualties), removed out of the casualty section, and placed somewhere else. Ok, I'm extremely tired right now so my plan was doing this before I went to sleep and then responding to questions later. Cheers! Wikifan12345 ( talk) 06:50, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
(ec) I just made it a separate section, I also changed the first sentence from: "Hamas gunmen publicly executed several Fatah members and Palestinians suspected of collaborating with Israel. Israeli and Fatah sources reported that Hamas executed between 40 and 60 Palestinians and wounded 75."
to:"Hamas has been accused of executing several Fatah members and Palestinians suspected of collaborating with Israel."
because the source says no such thing as the original. I also removed the end of the Hamas quote.
Nableezy (
talk)
08:10, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Sources you probably removed from the previous versions, this is straight from the sourced article:
Abbas accuses Hamas - A top aide of Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian President, accused Hamas yesterday of killing, arresting and torturing Fatah fighters in Gaza, as well as "obstructing" efforts to reconcile the warring Palestinian political factions, by raising "new conditions." - Hamas confesses to "arresting" but doesn't specify who: Ihab Ghissin, spokesman for the Hamas-run Interior Ministry in Gaza, confirmed his men had arrested scores of "collaborators" with Israel during and after the war. However, he refused to say whether the detainees were members of Fatah and denied the detainees were being tortured.
described how masked men with ID cards showing they were members of the Izzedin al-Qassam Brigades, the Hamas armed wing, shot her brother in the legs. The family had fled the house but returned on 18 January, the first day of the Israeli ceasefire. At 8pm several gunmen appeared at the gate asking for her brother, a 36-year-old Fatah military intelligence officer who had not been working since Hamas seized control of Gaza in June 2007. He was then shot in the right leg and again in the left. "They were holding us back and we were watching him bleeding," she said. The victim is now in a Cairo hospital after two operations on his legs. If you are disputing whether Hamas actually killed Fatah members, you are sadly mistaken. Hamas has admitted to arresting and "killing" collaborators, most of whom were clearly Fatah-related. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 08:37, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Waaay too much detail, we dont need to know some had their hands broken. There is no way this should have more detail than the casualties section. The former member of Btselem line is also not needed, that is just counted as some of the other non-Fatah Palestinians executed. And the last Hamas quote is not needed, restoring old, but keeping "Fatah officials in Ramallah reported Hamas of executing at least 19 party members and more than 35 Palestinians". Nableezy ( talk) 03:39, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
And again, the new paragraph crafted by you or who else mis-attributed several facts from the sources. I found another source from the Reprisal article and used it to support the accused/reported executions. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 03:49, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
"Fatah officials in Ramallah claimed that many of the alleged collaborators were in fact Fatah members who had been rounded up by Hamas militiamen during the war. They said that Ghanem was executed on January 7 in Rafah." It is easy to conclude that Hamas might have executed Ghanam as a result of this war. I'm just going by what the article says. why would Hamas execute someone who killed members of Fatah? That's an OR question and certainly doesn't apply, but opinions seem to fly back and forth at me without address, and it's quite unsettling. Again, I said the charity worker is secondary to my original claims. you truly are making this more of a deal then it needs to be, we're talking 2-3 more sentences (the original) that clarify the wounded and include another quote by Hamas, or we can delete the previous and use the new one which IMO is far more descriptive of Hamas' attitude. Second, you say "I'm making shit up", well you incorrectly paraphrases/cited the casualty # in the section and didn't explicitly state who were behind the reports (original said Israel/Fatah sources, extremely vague and Israel's opinion isn't even in the article, Fatah is the one complaining while Hamas practically lols at Abbas' face...more or less). I hope you see where I'm coming from. You guys are getting way too emotional from my perspective so take a deep breath mmmkay? Try to remain civil please thanks. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 07:59, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
Have I acted in bad faith here? Have I accused others of "making shit up"? No, I have not. You cannot continue to bring up the past whilst I do not, though it would be reasonable for me to if this is how the game is being played. It was not OR, I simply quoted what the article said. Did I include my own words? Did I make it up myself? No, I sourced it, stamped it, whatever. But, as I said, SECONDARY claim. You have any idea how much crap has been pumped into this article without such hostile response(s)? Every day there is some guy who adds in a little detail that is clear OR, without a single complaint. I know you don't like me Nab, it's all good...but I'm trying to make this about the article, not personal angst. The secondary quote is more descriptive and clearly necessary. It's not repetive, it doesn't promote a POV, it is simply a factual statement and is Hamas' response to the direct, and is far less vague than: "the government will show no mercy to collaborators who stab our people in the back, and they will be held accountable according to the law." The secondary quote was far more direct and clear. I also like how the current statements cut off the "if any collaborator is sentenced to death, we will not hesitate to carry it out." Weird. The quote I inserted is right above in the previous post or one before. Who is this somebody else? Someone rewrote it, I personally didn't care, I simply pointed out and corrected the inaccuracies and included verifiable information that doesn't warrant such aggression. The hands I edited, the knees are important because it was systematic. They weren't casualties of war, so your example of 1300+, 5000+ wounded is totally irrelevant and I truly am bothered why you continue to bring it up as if it is relevance? Am I supposed to feel guilty?? I stated why it was necessary to mention the knee shooting, Hamas went into homes and shot suspects in the knees and tortured them. "Wounded" is not an appropriate reflection, especially when there are dozens of sources to verify my above statements. I've said err...3 times from my count. Feel free to ask again, those this time I might copy/paste cause I'm truly getting tired and am nearing the part where one shouldn't have to agf. But, I believe this whole discussion might be the result of confusion, which is why I'm continuing it. Thanks for your quick response. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 02:30, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
I am not making shit up, that's what the source says. He collaborated with Israel and was executed during the raids. The "during OCL" was solely based on the context of the article, I didn't bother looking up his rap sheet. I didn't make "shit up", in the worst case it could be considered I sourced something wrong (such as what you did), but nothing was "made up." I didn't pull it out of thin air. Those kinds of statements are extremely extremely extremely inflammatory and it seems you standby them, fair enough. As far as I know you were the one who totally deleted the Internal violence section, moved it to other casualties, and erased 90% of the info along with their sources. If not, you appeared to be indifferent/critical when I brought it up. IDF did not systematically attack x people with bullet holes to the knees to create fear in suspected-collaborators. It is not UNDUE weight, it is a fact. Wounded is simply inaccurate, they weren't wounded. They were shot in the knees one-by-one, sanctioned by Hamas' internal security and no prejudice was taken. It was a policy developed specifically to tackle these dissidents, they weren't casualties of war. From what I understand IDF did not sanction policies to attack civilians intentionally, that may be your opinion but a consensus has yet to be reached. And by the way, the article has paragraphs of information regarding white phosphorous and illustrative pictures of injured civilians. You're claim of undue weight compared to the mountains of detailed info truly is a wonder in my eyes. Clearly you are more concerned about unrelated casualties not receiving the amount of attention you believe they deserve, than this actual issue. If that is the case, I urge you to make a section and file your complaint there. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 02:54, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Are you fine with how the section is after your latest edit? You see I just cleaned it up, did not remove anything. Nableezy ( talk) 03:40, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
The Palestinian Center for Human Rights, the Independent Commission on Human Rights, Amnesty International, and a senior EU official were critical of reprisal attacks on civilians in Gaza during the conflict. Allegations through different reports included abductions, extrajudicial killings, torture, and unlawful detentions. Targets included those accused of collaborating with Israel, opponents, and critics. A Fatah spokesman said that 14 members of the party in Gaza were killed and that more than 160 were shot or beaten. Hamas has denied any involvement by members of its security services but acknowledges that their fighters targeted suspected informers for Israel. A Hamas spokesperson said that the internal security service "was instructed to track collaborators and hit them hard." Hamas also said that "the government will show no mercy to collaborators who stab our people in the back, and they will be held accountable according to the law." Cptnono ( talk) 09:18, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
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There is information(paras)in the lead that doesn't seem to belong there and is abundantly covered in appropriate sections.
"with mechanised infantry, armor, and artillery units, supported by helicopter gunships, entering Gaza.[52][53]"
This is trivial information that only military buffs would find attractive. Too much details that only those who are actively researching for that stuff would bother to look for.
I propose to move it to the Israeli military section.
"International reactions during the conflict have included calls for an immediate ceasefire as in the United Nations Security Council Resolution 1860, and concern about the humanitarian situation in the Gaza Strip and the hindrances in delivering aid.[59][60][61][62]"
We don't need to let the world know that the world have reacted on this matter. Again, details that should be included somewhere else.
I propose to move it to International reactions if it's not already there.
"Human rights groups and aid organisations have accused Hamas and Israel of war crimes and called for independent investigations and lawsuits.[66][67][68][69]"
This is bound to happen in ANY war. And since both sides react to these calls differently and neither side see an important role(or practical) for the international community to take(otherwise this conflict would have been resolved) this information belongs in the adequate section but not in the lead.
Also, currently information that happened after the ceasefire is mentioned before the ceasefire was announced.
The 2008ā2009 IsraelāGaza conflict, part of the ongoing IsraeliāPalestinian conflict[22], started when Israel launched a military campaign in the Gaza Strip on 27 December 2008. Codenamed Operation Cast Lead, the aim was to stop Hamas rocket attacks on southern Israel and included the targeting of Hamas' members, the police force, and infrastructure.[24] In the Arab World, the conflict has been described as the Gaza Massacre.[25]
The time is irrelevant, again only military buffs would find that information valuable. Also fixed the language a bit for it to run smoothly. Removed the Hebrew and Arabic names. Can someone even say why is that notable in this english version?
A fragile six-month truce between Hamas and Israel expired on 19 December 2008.[26] Hamas and Israel could not agree on conditions to extend the truce.[27][28][29][30][31] Hamas blamed Israel for not lifting the Gaza Strip blockade, and for a purported Israeli raid on a cross-border tunnel in the Gaza Strip on November 4[32], which it held constituted a serious breach of the truce.[33][34] Israel accuses Hamas of violating the truce citing the frequent rocket and mortar attacks on Israel cities.[35]
The Israeli operation begun with an intense bombardment of the Gaza Strip,[36][37][38][39][40][41][42] targeting Hamas bases, police training camps[43], police headquarters and offices.[44][45] Civilian infrastructure, including mosques, houses and schools, were also attacked. Israel said many of these buildings stocked weapons.[46] Hamas intensified its rocket and mortar attacks against targets in Israel throughout the conflict, hitting such cities as Beersheba and Ashdod, that weren't previously targeted.[47][48][49][50][51] On January 3, 2009, the Israeli Defence Forces ground invasion began, with mechanised infantry, armor, and artillery units, supported by helicopter gunships, entering Gaza.[52][53]
The number of combatant and non-combatant casualties is a subject of ongoing contention.[54] It has been difficult to verify casualties figures due to the limited amount of journalists allowed in Gaza during the conflict.[55]
Israel announced a unilateral ceasefire on January 18 which came in effect at 0000 UTC (2 a.m. local time). Hamas offered its own one-week unilateral ceasefire.[63][64] On 21 January, Israel completed its withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.[65]
In the days following the ceasefire, the BBC reported that more than 400,000 Gazans were left without running water.[56] The BBC further reported that 4000 homes had been ruined, leaving tens of thousands of people homeless.[57] An EU official described the situation in Gaza as "abominable" and "indescribable".[58]
Took away Israeli Air force and navy. Also noted that Beersheba and Ashdod were targeted for the first time. reference here
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas-qassam.htm.
The 2008ā2009 IsraelāGaza conflict, part of the ongoing IsraeliāPalestinian conflict[22], started when Israel launched a military campaign in the Gaza Strip on 27 December 2008. Codenamed Operation Cast Lead, the aim was to stop Hamas rocket attacks on southern Israel and included the targeting of Hamas' members, the police force, and infrastructure.[24] In the Arab World, the conflict has been described as the Gaza Massacre.[25]
A fragile six-month truce between Hamas and Israel expired on 19 December 2008.[26] Hamas and Israel could not agree on conditions to extend the truce.[27][28][29][30][31] Hamas blamed Israel for not lifting the Gaza Strip blockade, and for a purported Israeli raid on a cross-border tunnel in the Gaza Strip on November 4[32], which it held constituted a serious breach of the truce.[33][34] Israel accuses Hamas of violating the truce citing the frequent rocket and mortar attacks on Israel cities.[35]
The Israeli operation begun with an intense bombardment of the Gaza Strip,[36][37][38][39][40][41][42] targeting Hamas bases, police training camps[43], police headquarters and offices.[44][45] Civilian infrastructure, including mosques, houses and schools, were also attacked. Israel said many of these buildings stocked weapons.[46] Hamas intensified its rocket and mortar attacks against targets in Israel throughout the conflict, hitting such cities as Beersheba and Ashdod, that weren't previously targeted.[47][48][49][50][51] On January 3, 2009, the Israeli Defence Forces ground invasion began.52][53]
Israel announced a unilateral ceasefire on January 18 which came in effect at 0000 UTC (2 a.m. local time). Hamas offered its own one-week unilateral ceasefire.[63][64] On 21 January, Israel completed its withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.[65]
In the days following the ceasefire, the BBC reported that more than 400,000 Gazans were left without running water.[56] The BBC further reported that 4000 homes had been ruined, leaving tens of thousands of people homeless.[57] An EU official described the situation in Gaza as "abominable" and "indescribable".[58]
The number of combatant and non-combatant casualties is a subject of ongoing contention.[54] It has been difficult to verify casualties figures due to the limited amount of journalists allowed in Gaza during the conflict.[55]
Comments? Suggestions? Let them be known.
Cryptonio (
talk)
06:33, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Ez on the bold? i hear ya. Cryptonio ( talk) 06:38, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Had to take the tanks etc out from the proposal. Cryptonio ( talk) 06:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Man, it couldn't be more simple(i did break it down) let me tell you.
Para 1 and 2 stay relatively the same. The native names could stay i guess.
New Para 1 and 2
The 2008ā2009 IsraelāGaza conflict, part of the ongoing IsraeliāPalestinian conflict[22], started when Israel launched a military campaign in the Gaza Strip on 27 December 2008. Codenamed Operation Cast Lead, the aim was to stop Hamas rocket attacks on southern Israel and included the targeting of Hamas' members, the police force, and infrastructure.[24] In the Arab World, the conflict has been described as the Gaza Massacre.[25]
With the Hebrew and Arabic names included.
A fragile six-month truce between Hamas and Israel expired on 19 December 2008.[26] Hamas and Israel could not agree on conditions to extend the truce.[27][28][29][30][31] Hamas blamed Israel for not lifting the Gaza Strip blockade, and for a purported Israeli raid on a cross-border tunnel in the Gaza Strip on November 4[32], which it held constituted a serious breach of the truce.[33][34] Israel accuses Hamas of violating the truce citing the frequent rocket and mortar attacks on Israel cities.[35]
I don't think i touched Para 2
New Para 3
The Israeli operation begun with an intense bombardment of the Gaza Strip,[36][37][38][39][40][41][42] targeting Hamas bases, police training camps[43], police headquarters and offices.[44][45] Civilian infrastructure, including mosques, houses and schools, were also attacked. Israel said many of these buildings stocked weapons.[46] Hamas intensified its rocket and mortar attacks against targets in Israel throughout the conflict, hitting such cities as Beersheba and Ashdod, that weren't previously targeted.[47][48][49][50][51] On January 3, 2009, the Israeli Defence Forces ground invasion began.52][53]
Took away Israeli Air force and navy. Also noted that Beersheba and Ashdod were targeted for the first time. reference here http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas-qassam.htm.
New Para 4, 5, 6.
Israel announced a unilateral ceasefire on January 18 which came in effect at 0000 UTC (2 a.m. local time). Hamas offered its own one-week unilateral ceasefire.[63][64] On 21 January, Israel completed its withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.[65]
In the days following the ceasefire, the BBC reported that more than 400,000 Gazans were left without running water.[56] The BBC further reported that 4000 homes had been ruined, leaving tens of thousands of people homeless.[57] An EU official described the situation in Gaza as "abominable" and "indescribable".[58]
The number of combatant and non-combatant casualties is a subject of ongoing contention.[54] It has been difficult to verify casualties figures due to the limited amount of journalists allowed in Gaza during the conflict.[55]
I took away the para about the international reaction and the human rights claim. These were my explanations.
"We don't need to let the world know that the world have reacted on this matter. Again, details that should be included somewhere else."
"This is bound to happen in ANY war. And since both sides react to these calls differently and neither side see an important role(or practical) for the international community to take(otherwise this conflict would have been resolved) this information belongs in the adequate section but not in the lead."
How's it now? let me know.
Cryptonio (
talk)
07:04, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
I like a lot of your changes/simplifications. I would like to propose an additional one: that we remove the following quote from the lead: "An EU official described the situation in Gaza as "abominable" and "indescribable".[58]" Undoubtedly many EU and other international officials have opinions and descriptions of the situation in Gaza, but does this belong in the lead? Also, the quote provides no 'real' information/facts about the actual situation. If this quote does belong in the article, perhaps it should be moved elsewhere. Kinetochore ( talk) 09:38, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
PROTIP: WP:LEAD. I am all for WP:IAR, but only if it improves the encyclopedia - and the aberration of a lead we have clearly doesn't improve it. If we stuck to the rules maybe we would go somewhere.-- Cerejota ( talk) 17:04, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Not bad. I have only two comments. I hate the first sentence which is absolute jibberish and could so easily be fixed to say that the conflict escalated rather than started with the Israeli offensive. The only other point I would make has to do with Israel saying that Hamas stockpiled weapons in mosques, houses and schools. Are there any Gazan or independent sources acknowledging this to be true? If so it should be in there. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 02:46, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
<non-free image and copyright-violating link removed; non-free images can only be used in article spaces with appropriate fair-use rationales; copyright infringing links cannot be inserted on any space in Wikipedia. Please do not restore.>
From http://www.journalismethics.ca/online_journalism_ethics/photojournalism.htm -
"According to Al Tompkins from the Poynter Institute in the U.S., when deciding whether a photograph is too graphic for the paper, newsrooms should consider: āWhat is the real journalistic value of the photographs? What do they prove and why are they news? Do they dispel or affirm information the public had prior to seeing the images?ā By looking at the photos in terms of what they add to the news, editors should be able to determine whether publication is appropriate."
I will find further commentary of the use of graphic images. Franly, I watched a documentary where even Al Jazeera's and other Arabic TV news stations would not broadcast these graphic images. Why wikipedia editors insist on doing so beggars belief.
I will continue to campaign against this blatantly sick, gruesome, propagandistic practise.
And I would be saying the same thing if you were publishing the corpses of Israeli dead - which, I note with some bemusement, you never do.
Betacrucis ( talk) 15:29, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
If we are going to revisit this issue, this will end in bans. All am saying: questioning due weight, relevant, reliably sourced, free-licensed inclusion of images is prima facie disruptive. Its two images in casualties of faces and one image for the Zeitoun incident. Opposing this is stepping away from the reasonable, and I will predicatably result in the gallery being restored. Why Betacrucis insists on being disruptive is beyond me.-- Cerejota ( talk) 19:24, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
i can't help but acknowledge Nableezy's consistency in replacing estimates/opinion with facts and using them with arguments. Here:Ā :"You realize these were broadcast on Al-Jazeera right? That they are stills from a video released by Al-Jazeera. Please stop comparing them to propaganda and rotten.com. And there have been 15 Israeli deaths in this conflict as opposed to 1300+ Palestinians, it is logic, as well as due weight that we show that in its proper proportion."
What, so more Israeli's should die and that would make the war fair? Please leave your SOAPBOXING at the door, we don't know how many civilians have been killed and it is likely it is far less than 900. I like how you don't differentiate between civilian and militant, quite stealthy dare I say. Al-Jazeera while unfortunately is considered an RS, we should be prudent before blasting their b.s in this article. You want logical? Fine, it is owned by Qatar's despot ruler and their Western counterpart just quit on account of bloated corruption and bias. Yes, this is all POV and shouldn't be in the article but I'm just giving facts here. Cheers! Wikifan12345 ( talk) 01:56, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflict) You both calm down. The responses are way out of proportion. I suggest we all try to leave the soapboxy comparisons at the door and stick to the RS. And of course, stop arguing Al Jazeera is less reliable. I do not give a fuck about "truth", all I care about is verifiability. You all can take "the truth" and smoke it. Nableezy, stop the crap: you are picking on wikifan, using the codewords guaranteed to make him blow up... Seriously, the last few days it has been nasty watching both of you basically throw the WP:CIVIL rule book out. This. Stops. Nao. -- Cerejota ( talk) 02:22, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Strike-through is typed <s>like this</s> and ends up like this.
Nableezy (
talk)
02:29, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Everybody, I continue to go back to assuming good faith. I have to assume it because otherwise I will go quite mad.
Cdogsimmons, you said you would be in favor of including images of Israeli casualties. There are two problems: first, the Israeli media very rarely take such photos, particularly during the most gruesome attacks like suicide bombings. Secondly, I'd be against their inclusion for the very same reason: it is emotive and it is propagandistic. Wikifan is right to say that it is "war porn". It simply is.
They may have been broadcast on Al Jazeera, but they DO NOT belong in an encyclopaedia. Think for a minute.
I don't have time to look back at other articles' histories (like the 2nd intifada's page) which do not contain any such images, but I am quite certain that in the long run, pictures of dead people not only don't belong on this page, but they won't remain on this page, regardless of my input. They are undeserving of inclusion.
Let me illustrate further: if there was, heaven forbid, a suicide bombing in downtown Jerusalem today, I would oppose the inclusion of images of dead people.
I'll add one other thing: the photos seem to have been added without consensus. But I stress that I consider this a side issue. Betacrucis ( talk) 03:02, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Cpt, the one removed prior to this discussion starting, and i would then presume would be the problem, was the dead girl picture from the al-jazeera video, it is in the article now in the casualties section. Nableezy ( talk) 04:51, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Sean, if you believe anything I have said is "inconsistent with WP guidelines", then point it out, instead of using vaguely threatening language.
I am advocating treating this page the same as every other article on WP. Look at the pages for the First intifada, Second intifada, Operation grapes of wrath, 2006 Lebanon War. Think of any suicide bombing; pick one out of thin air - the Sbarro bombing, for instance, or the Dolphinarium bombing, the Passover massacre - no photos of dead people. None.
You can cite Al Jazeera all you like but Al Jazeera is not Wikipedia. These discussions have been had elsewhere. Why is this article different from all other articles? Betacrucis ( talk) 10:46, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
There are cultural reasons why there aren't really such pictures out there. But even if there were, I would oppose their inclusion. You have provided your own rationale for inclusion of such images, but I don't think that brings us closer to a more objective way of identifying what deserves inclusion and what doesn't. You are right that "objectionable" is a random term, but "notability" is not. I think an objective way of evaluating the inclusion of images can be (and may already have been) agreed-upon. I seek further dialogue on this. Betacrucis ( talk) 15:42, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
(EC)Not so, there are already a new set of rules for IP conflict based known as "discretionary sanctions," [1]. Further I know that there are admins who are actively discussing issues concerning such contentious areas, in hopes of putting some new guidelines and rules into place in order to make for a better editing environment. Obviously I believe Beta's points are well taken as I was banned from editing the article for my aggressive removal of those photographs based on objections to weight as well as some of their graphic nature. I do not believe that there ever a consensus (rough or otherwise) to include a certain number of photographs (ie balance) or what exactly those photos should illustrate, and how much weight (ie casualty ratio 1000-1 thus many more photos on the 1000 side) is appropriate (ie WP:UNDUE), what constitutes "war porn", what constitutes WP:CENSOR, what constitutes WP:RS in this situation, eg International Solidarity Movement Al-Jazeera or Flickr etc. I actually think that in order to prevent these questions from coming up time and again on this article and other I-P articles, that there should be some kind of dispute resolution on this, with an eye to establishing some WP:guidelines for future articles. Not quite sure how to go about this but if there is a willing admin lurking, perhaps he/she could guide us to the appropriate forum (RfC? RfA? mediation?) to save us from having to repeat ourselves endlessly on talk pages and improve the editing environment on this and other contentious articles. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 17:19, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I guess you don't read what I write, Nableezy. Now that's OK if you don't want to answer, but if you do answer you should read. I have said (repeatedly) (as have others) that I had a number of objections to the photographs, including balance and undue weight, the question of the reliablity of the sources and WP:NPOV. To insist as you do that my reasoning is simply WP:IDONTLIKEIT hardly seems fair or even assuming good faith under the circumstances. As to Jimbo, he said that pictures can be used to push a political agenda, which has also been the contention of a number of us here. I am not misrepresenting him in the slightest. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 23:49, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Firstly, Tundra, Wiki, and Darwish, settle down.
I think the arguments put in favor of the pictures are understandable. The argument over AJ being a RS is an unnecessary one. Let's assume for a moment that the pics are from a RS and that they are copyleft. Then I think we get to the question of what value these pictures add to the article? I don't think these pictures can be taken out of the cultural context in which they are being used today - generally, as propaganda. Yes, it is true that there have been photos taken at suicide bombings (there was a very short time during Intifada 2 when I believe it became official IL policy to broadcast them) but they are generally not used in the same way.
Cdogsimmons made a very interesting point: "There is a concern that filling this page up with pictures of dead people will look like propaganda which is not what this article is about. However, to fail to post any images of casualties, is also playing to a side of the conflict. There's a reason after all that Israel barred the international press from entering Gaza when the operations began. We need to find some common ground."
I think this shows crucial insight. And I really believe there is some common ground between, on the one hand, posting images of corpses and wounded children, and, on the other hand, not posting any images at all. Surely we can locate images that illustrate this conflict that we can agree on?
Betacrucis (
talk)
04:04, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
I may have misinterpreted your comment, Cryptonio; it does sound like you are trying to get back at another article which I am not familiar with. Nableezy, I understand your point about offense being no reason to remove an image; I will have to read through WP policy but prima facie it appears that an argument could be made for both inclusion and exclusion. Not so much exclusion as replacement. I appreciate that your view is in favor of inclusion of the images and that you feel that they are appropriate and informative; I think they are gratuitous and unnecessary.
Take a massacre that has nothing to do with this conflict - the
Virginia Tech massacre, for example. Not a single picture of dead or injured people. I think you will find that, unless there are exceptional circumstances, images of dead people are widely considered gratuitous unless there is some sort of overriding reason for their inclusion - such as notability or iconic status.
I think Wikifan is right that their inclusion is far from guaranteed in the long-run. As I've said, my strong sense is that these images cannot be removed from the context of the pro-Palestinian tendency to use such images for propaganda purposes. I think anybody reasonable, even a pro-Palestinian editor, recognizes the reality of this context.
Certainly there are shocking images that occasionally deserve inclusion. I can't recall if I've mentioned this already, but I note the images of
Mohammed al-Dura in the
Second Intifada article, and the bloodied hands image from the
Ramallah lynching. These are notable and iconic. But in general I cannot see a reason for the inclusion of such images, especially for a recent conflict in which emotions are high on both sides. We should be able to see this in its historic context and avoid using information or images that will no longer seem salient in a few years time.
I am eager to hear your thoughts on how these images add to the article.
Consensus may be overrated but as I understand it, it is policy. I have not removed the images because I've been warned that there are special sanctions in place, but I cannot see why the default position in the absence of consensus ought to be their inclusion.
By the way, I also cannot see the need for the current chart, whose figures are now well and truly outdated. But that's another topic.
By the way, Nableezy, check it out - I'm using "br"!
Betacrucis (
talk)
09:13, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
And I know people are going to cry about this line, at least some have in the past, but seriously, how cool is Al-Jazeera? What other organization gives away content for free like that? Sickest channel. Nableezy ( talk) 20:06, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
They claim that 1,338 died, nearly all of which they could explictly identify, and around 1/3 are non-combatants-- which would be around 450 deaths, not 1200 deaths with 250 non-combatant deaths as the article currently says. āPreceding unsigned comment added by The Squicks ( talk ā¢ contribs) 18:33, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
If you look at 2008ā2009_IsraelāGaza_conflict#References, there are about four reference tag errors. Can someone fix this as I do not want to get involved editing this very sensitive article. kilbad ( talk) 00:45, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
There were a good number of images in use on this talk page, many of which were, either by themselves, or as a result of the caption underneath them, likely to increase rather than decrease tension here. Some served no purpose except to inflame the discussion. In the interests of editorial harmony and acting as an uninvolved administrator, I have removed them all. CIreland ( talk) 12:32, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Most of the images were innocuous enough and cool, but the one that was reported was not. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 04:51, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
Ayin | |
---|---|
Phoenician | ayin |
Hebrew | ×¢ |
Aramaic | ayin |
Syriac | Ü„ |
Arabic | Ų¹ |
Phonemic representation | Ź |
Position in alphabet | 16 |
Numerical value | 70 |
Alphabetic derivatives of the Phoenician |
I know that we all have different opinions about what ought to make this article better. But I have a question for you: is there an article on this conflict that is reasonably acceptable to all of us (or at least almost all of us)?
I am still learning the ropes here, but it seems to me that more current articles tend to be highly unreliable, while some of the older articles are the result of greater consensus. I wonder whether we can't edit to a template? Much of the stuff we are talking about it well-worn territory, so to speak.
Your thoughts? Betacrucis ( talk) 10:54, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I think over time, the article will improve, particularly as the war becomes part of history and slowly (and sadly) is forgotten. Jandrews23jandrews23 ( talk) 16:45, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Sorry guys but I have to do this again. The first sentence reads: "The 2008ā2009 IsraelāGaza conflict, part of the ongoing IsraeliāPalestinian conflict[22], started on 27 December 2008 (11:30 a.m. local time; 9:30 a.m. UTC)[23] when Israel launched a military campaign in the Gaza Strip." Now while it is true that the the 2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict is part of the ongoing I-P conflict, it did not start when Israel launched Operation Cast Lead. It has been ongoing for the entire year. Why was there a "truce" -that was not honored- if there was no conflict going on? A truce for no reason? This wordage suggests that nothing happened prior to Israel's military campaign, which clearly is not so. It also works to frame the debate in a certain way, ie what is relevant to this conflict and what is not. It has been suggested for instance that issues surrounding Shalit's kidnapping and/or release are not relevant to this conflict because Israel did not specifically say she was launching Op CL in order to capture Shalit. It ignores comments in June of 2008 from Hamas that Shalit would not "see the light of day" unless Israel acceded to all of its demands. In fact, arbitrarily choosing a "start-date" of December 27th for this conflict is not neutral. The 2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict started January 1, 2008. It escalated on December 27, 2008. If we can't get the first sentence right, nothing will fall into place. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 04:03, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Tundra, please checkout this diff, in which you argue the contrary position - and in the context of that article, I would have agreed with you 100%. I think we should be clear that this article covers the topics that began with Operation Cast Least. The background links copiously and provides a general overview to the articles that cover the events before Operation Cast Lead. We all know this began with the Big Bang, the question is if we ar egoing to use the hyperlinked nature of a wiki to keep articles within discrete topics, or we are going to have unproductive edit wars because we feel the justifications for one side are not sufficiently covered. I know what my vote is. Fleas have little Fleas.-- Cerejota ( talk) 06:29, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
You are ignoring that 2008 IsraelāGaza conflict exists already and that there was consensus to merge into 2007ā2008 IsraelāGaza conflict (btw, near unanimous consensus for the merger). I hear what you are saying, but re-read what I am saying: there are other articles to which alls this information belongs, but this is not that article. In particular, ignoring 2008 IsraelāGaza conflict leaves me confused, as it is the natural place for all this information. This article covers the Gaza war, not the events before - even if we should provide a fair amount of background, as we already do. -- Cerejota ( talk) 16:49, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
I believe the "Gaza War" did not start with Israel's Op Cast Lead. Maybe we can get consensus on that? You don't have "truces" unless you have violence. This article is claiming that the Gaza War started with Israeli initiation of hostilities. What exactly is the difference between earlier airstrikes and Israeli incursions and Hamas rocket strikes and killing and kidnapping of soldiers pre 12/27/08 & post? Tundrabuggy ( talk) 02:33, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
The following source is an address by a UN official to the council/president: http://www.webcitation.org/5eVPe7S1A. I am curious as to the nature of this address- can we say that it reflects the UN, or just this official? And can we say that it is fact, or just opinion? I am actually asking here, I don't know and would like an answer.
Also, I disagree with the quotations used from the document. Quotations such as "on good days" and "endless haggling" are emotionally charged, and misrepresent the actual situation (since it would appear from these quotes that Israel withholds aid/supplies for no reason, not taking into account rocket attacks, etc)). It is doubtful that reliable sources have used these quotes to describe the situation, as they are ambiguous and open to interpretation (i.e. what is a good day? What constitutes endless haggling? etc) Kinetochore ( talk) 19:56, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
I was not so much concerned with the attribution of these quotations as with the use of them in this article. As I said above, I disagree with the the use of the quotes 'on "good days"' and 'after "endless haggling"'. They are vague, confusing, and very abstract (i.e. what is a good day? What constitutes endless haggling?). They mean to the reader whatever the reader wants them to mean (i.e. a good day is when the Israeli prime minister buys a new hat, endless haggling lasts exactly 6 hours, except on wednesdays when it lasts 8). They do not add anything to the article, and their removal would actually provide the reader with a greater understanding of the situation (an understanding that is not bogged down with unclear metaphors) Kinetochore ( talk) 06:00, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
I changed "on good days" quote to "at best", and removed the "endless haggling" quote. Meaning has not been changed, and clarity has improved. Do you object to these changes? Kinetochore ( talk) 10:41, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
Per Wikifan below: "It is my strong opinion that this occurrence needs its own section, titled "Internal violence"
Can we clarify who supports/opposes the current section:
Previous:
The very original was more or less the same in terms of message and it included far less details. This is weird considering the summary argument offered by some...
Awhile back we had a discussion, here:
not so productive
I personally think the current one is all right, except for this sentence: Israeli and Fatah sources reported that Hamas executed between 40 and 60 Palestinians and wounded 75.[219] Grammar is rather off, we know how many have died and the wounded from the original article.
The current argument, per "consensus", was actually a response to someone totally removing the information, retitling it "other casualties", and putting it in the casualty sections without referring to talk. I didn't think a new consensus was appropriate simply because there were less than 4 people in the discussion (really 3 actually), and the particularly, dare I say "uncivil" reasoning: Your BIAS did not allowed you to see that both Cptnono and Nableezy were on different sides on this issue and they were able to form a compromise. It is your ineptness that does not allow you to see through these things. Did Israel killed those people? no. Did Israel killed the border guard? yes. was the guard Palestinian? no. should it then go into Casualties? no. Did Fatah and Hamas started their struggle this year? no. Is it useful to even mention what happens between them? no. Can we afford them a couple of lines? yes. and so we did. You are trying to make this Fatah-Hamas battle as earth shattering, like as if capable of replacing everything else that goes on between Israel and Palestine. You are the least capable person that should make a judgment call on this issue. For you won't be able to see past the dump truck in your eyes. realize this, please.
I personally could not care less about the name calling because I can empathize (I mean, I'm the one who has to live with the ineptness), but seriously...I did involve myself and attempted to be as reasonable as I could but I think a new section was necessary just so everyone gets a voice and we all understand what's going on.
It is my strong opinion that this occurrence needs its own section, titled "Internal violence" (NOT other casualties), removed out of the casualty section, and placed somewhere else. Ok, I'm extremely tired right now so my plan was doing this before I went to sleep and then responding to questions later. Cheers! Wikifan12345 ( talk) 06:50, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
(ec) I just made it a separate section, I also changed the first sentence from: "Hamas gunmen publicly executed several Fatah members and Palestinians suspected of collaborating with Israel. Israeli and Fatah sources reported that Hamas executed between 40 and 60 Palestinians and wounded 75."
to:"Hamas has been accused of executing several Fatah members and Palestinians suspected of collaborating with Israel."
because the source says no such thing as the original. I also removed the end of the Hamas quote.
Nableezy (
talk)
08:10, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Sources you probably removed from the previous versions, this is straight from the sourced article:
Abbas accuses Hamas - A top aide of Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian President, accused Hamas yesterday of killing, arresting and torturing Fatah fighters in Gaza, as well as "obstructing" efforts to reconcile the warring Palestinian political factions, by raising "new conditions." - Hamas confesses to "arresting" but doesn't specify who: Ihab Ghissin, spokesman for the Hamas-run Interior Ministry in Gaza, confirmed his men had arrested scores of "collaborators" with Israel during and after the war. However, he refused to say whether the detainees were members of Fatah and denied the detainees were being tortured.
described how masked men with ID cards showing they were members of the Izzedin al-Qassam Brigades, the Hamas armed wing, shot her brother in the legs. The family had fled the house but returned on 18 January, the first day of the Israeli ceasefire. At 8pm several gunmen appeared at the gate asking for her brother, a 36-year-old Fatah military intelligence officer who had not been working since Hamas seized control of Gaza in June 2007. He was then shot in the right leg and again in the left. "They were holding us back and we were watching him bleeding," she said. The victim is now in a Cairo hospital after two operations on his legs. If you are disputing whether Hamas actually killed Fatah members, you are sadly mistaken. Hamas has admitted to arresting and "killing" collaborators, most of whom were clearly Fatah-related. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 08:37, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Waaay too much detail, we dont need to know some had their hands broken. There is no way this should have more detail than the casualties section. The former member of Btselem line is also not needed, that is just counted as some of the other non-Fatah Palestinians executed. And the last Hamas quote is not needed, restoring old, but keeping "Fatah officials in Ramallah reported Hamas of executing at least 19 party members and more than 35 Palestinians". Nableezy ( talk) 03:39, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
And again, the new paragraph crafted by you or who else mis-attributed several facts from the sources. I found another source from the Reprisal article and used it to support the accused/reported executions. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 03:49, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
"Fatah officials in Ramallah claimed that many of the alleged collaborators were in fact Fatah members who had been rounded up by Hamas militiamen during the war. They said that Ghanem was executed on January 7 in Rafah." It is easy to conclude that Hamas might have executed Ghanam as a result of this war. I'm just going by what the article says. why would Hamas execute someone who killed members of Fatah? That's an OR question and certainly doesn't apply, but opinions seem to fly back and forth at me without address, and it's quite unsettling. Again, I said the charity worker is secondary to my original claims. you truly are making this more of a deal then it needs to be, we're talking 2-3 more sentences (the original) that clarify the wounded and include another quote by Hamas, or we can delete the previous and use the new one which IMO is far more descriptive of Hamas' attitude. Second, you say "I'm making shit up", well you incorrectly paraphrases/cited the casualty # in the section and didn't explicitly state who were behind the reports (original said Israel/Fatah sources, extremely vague and Israel's opinion isn't even in the article, Fatah is the one complaining while Hamas practically lols at Abbas' face...more or less). I hope you see where I'm coming from. You guys are getting way too emotional from my perspective so take a deep breath mmmkay? Try to remain civil please thanks. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 07:59, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
Have I acted in bad faith here? Have I accused others of "making shit up"? No, I have not. You cannot continue to bring up the past whilst I do not, though it would be reasonable for me to if this is how the game is being played. It was not OR, I simply quoted what the article said. Did I include my own words? Did I make it up myself? No, I sourced it, stamped it, whatever. But, as I said, SECONDARY claim. You have any idea how much crap has been pumped into this article without such hostile response(s)? Every day there is some guy who adds in a little detail that is clear OR, without a single complaint. I know you don't like me Nab, it's all good...but I'm trying to make this about the article, not personal angst. The secondary quote is more descriptive and clearly necessary. It's not repetive, it doesn't promote a POV, it is simply a factual statement and is Hamas' response to the direct, and is far less vague than: "the government will show no mercy to collaborators who stab our people in the back, and they will be held accountable according to the law." The secondary quote was far more direct and clear. I also like how the current statements cut off the "if any collaborator is sentenced to death, we will not hesitate to carry it out." Weird. The quote I inserted is right above in the previous post or one before. Who is this somebody else? Someone rewrote it, I personally didn't care, I simply pointed out and corrected the inaccuracies and included verifiable information that doesn't warrant such aggression. The hands I edited, the knees are important because it was systematic. They weren't casualties of war, so your example of 1300+, 5000+ wounded is totally irrelevant and I truly am bothered why you continue to bring it up as if it is relevance? Am I supposed to feel guilty?? I stated why it was necessary to mention the knee shooting, Hamas went into homes and shot suspects in the knees and tortured them. "Wounded" is not an appropriate reflection, especially when there are dozens of sources to verify my above statements. I've said err...3 times from my count. Feel free to ask again, those this time I might copy/paste cause I'm truly getting tired and am nearing the part where one shouldn't have to agf. But, I believe this whole discussion might be the result of confusion, which is why I'm continuing it. Thanks for your quick response. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 02:30, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
I am not making shit up, that's what the source says. He collaborated with Israel and was executed during the raids. The "during OCL" was solely based on the context of the article, I didn't bother looking up his rap sheet. I didn't make "shit up", in the worst case it could be considered I sourced something wrong (such as what you did), but nothing was "made up." I didn't pull it out of thin air. Those kinds of statements are extremely extremely extremely inflammatory and it seems you standby them, fair enough. As far as I know you were the one who totally deleted the Internal violence section, moved it to other casualties, and erased 90% of the info along with their sources. If not, you appeared to be indifferent/critical when I brought it up. IDF did not systematically attack x people with bullet holes to the knees to create fear in suspected-collaborators. It is not UNDUE weight, it is a fact. Wounded is simply inaccurate, they weren't wounded. They were shot in the knees one-by-one, sanctioned by Hamas' internal security and no prejudice was taken. It was a policy developed specifically to tackle these dissidents, they weren't casualties of war. From what I understand IDF did not sanction policies to attack civilians intentionally, that may be your opinion but a consensus has yet to be reached. And by the way, the article has paragraphs of information regarding white phosphorous and illustrative pictures of injured civilians. You're claim of undue weight compared to the mountains of detailed info truly is a wonder in my eyes. Clearly you are more concerned about unrelated casualties not receiving the amount of attention you believe they deserve, than this actual issue. If that is the case, I urge you to make a section and file your complaint there. Wikifan12345 ( talk) 02:54, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Are you fine with how the section is after your latest edit? You see I just cleaned it up, did not remove anything. Nableezy ( talk) 03:40, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
The Palestinian Center for Human Rights, the Independent Commission on Human Rights, Amnesty International, and a senior EU official were critical of reprisal attacks on civilians in Gaza during the conflict. Allegations through different reports included abductions, extrajudicial killings, torture, and unlawful detentions. Targets included those accused of collaborating with Israel, opponents, and critics. A Fatah spokesman said that 14 members of the party in Gaza were killed and that more than 160 were shot or beaten. Hamas has denied any involvement by members of its security services but acknowledges that their fighters targeted suspected informers for Israel. A Hamas spokesperson said that the internal security service "was instructed to track collaborators and hit them hard." Hamas also said that "the government will show no mercy to collaborators who stab our people in the back, and they will be held accountable according to the law." Cptnono ( talk) 09:18, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
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