This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | → | Archive 20 |
Several pieces of contentious text have been inserted in the article.
The first states that "300 Israeli Websites were defaced,[315][316] all of which were interpreted to be in response to the conflict." You can follow the chain of sources back and they lead from one website to another till they end up at a blog! This blog give no details of which websites were hacked and is titled "Radical Muslim Hackers Declare CyberWar on Israel". I've never heard of the blogger before and there is really no reason to give credence to an obscure blogger when s/he doesnt provide a list of the 300 sites alleged to be hacked. Please look into this. I think this sentence needs to be removed.
Second, despite the discussion above, someone has persisted in inserting images of a protest in Tel-Aviv. Once again, these images are not backed by a single reliable source. Did these protests happen before the attacks or after? Why are these protests notable? Which mainstream media sources reported on these protests? None of these questions are answered. In fact, the images themselves seem to come from a personal flickr website. This is definitely original research. In addition, the caption of the second image reads: "Tel-Aviv University students protest unlawful holding of Gilad Shalit by hamas as a hostage to their demands.Gilad Shalit has been a hostage for more than 900 days.Shalit's denied rights to Red Cross (ICRC) visitation, which is a violation of international law." with no sources for these claims.
This needs to be removed also. I would welcome the inclusion of a diversity of images but they need to be well sourced and notable. Jacob2718 ( talk) 21:46, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
i agree. when there are more than 20 countries listed with anti-israeli protests and fewer than five cities that the sources state had "small group of pro-israel" supporters opposing them, it gives undue weight to have any photos of tel aviv protestors. Untwirl ( talk) 03:46, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
either balance out the pic at the bottom with a "Other Side" pic, or remove it entirely thank you very much 78.40.176.241 ( talk) 22:48, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Of course, it's "POV". Every edit is based on "POV". It is impossible to talk about an issue with the article without alleging it's "POV", as there is no other explanation for the fact that the article is not -- and never will be -- perfect. And, no one will listen to you unless you say "POV". -- tariqabjotu 03:21, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
There's a lot of crap being shovelled into the article recently. For example:
During the 8 January three-hour truce period, a UN driver was killed during an exchange of fire. The UN originally maintained that he died from Israeli fire, [1] though this was later put into doubt. [2]
The source cited for this claim is this article. Please note what the source says:
According to the foreign media, who based their information on UN sources, IDF tank shells blasted the truck. According to the Magen David Adom medic who claimed to have taken the Palestinians to an Israeli hospital, the truck actually came under Hamas sniper fire.
The medic, who asked not to be named, said he got his information from soldiers in the field, but by press time - some eight hours after the incident - the IDF Spokesman's Office was still unable to provide a response or to establish contact with the relevant sources in the field.
Adding to the confusion, the Palestinian Red Crescent Society said it had evacuated the victims, but the MDA medic said soldiers told him they had gone in, at great personal risk, to evacuate the wounded Palestinians
What is certain is that there is one dead Palestinian, and two others being treated at Ashkelon's Barzilai Medical Center for gunshot wounds.
Not sufficient evidence I'm afraid that the story being reported by every other media organization, the UN, Palestinian medics whose names are on record, etc., is "in doubt". The phrasing of the sentence also implies the UN has changed its position, which it has not. Let's wait and see how the story develops before treating this with equal weight to mainstream narrative so far. K? Tiamut talk 00:08, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
MiszaBot edit summary: "(Archiving 44 thread(s) (older than 3h) to Talk:2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict/Archive 10, Talk:2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict/Archive 11.)"
I removed the incorrect hidden note from the top section of the talk page:
A thread I started less than 24 hours ago was archived. I returned it to the current talk page. If you see other recent threads archived you may want to return some of them if you feel you did not have a chance to finish the discussion.
I changed the algo setting from 3h (3 hours) to 24h (24 hours). Whoever set it up originally did not get consensus for the time period as is required. What should be the time period of inactivity before a section is archived here? 24 hours? 36 hours? 48 hours? -- Timeshifter ( talk) 03:48, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
This is copied from my talk page in reference to my request to Flayer for more info on his sources for the total number of Israeli wounded in the infobox:
The 2 links are the ones currently in the infobox to verify ( WP:V) the total number of Israeli soldiers wounded. Can someone else besides Flayer verify that the sources say what he says they say?
I think the numbers are probably fairly accurate since we also have this:
OCHA oPt ( United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory).
-- Timeshifter ( talk) 18:40, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Just a quick look at history convinces me a few editors may have engaged in this, which could lead to being blocked for a period of time, so a reminder: Contributors must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period, whether or not the edits involve the same material, except in certain circumstances. A "page" is any page on Wikipedia, including talk and project space. A revert is any action, including administrative actions, that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part. A series of consecutive saved revert edits by one user with no intervening edits by another user counts as one revert. CarolMooreDC ( talk) 20:26, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
As you can see israel is not allowing reporters in, my understanding is there are many more dead soldiers, at least 11, I'd be careful with these edits. Be careful with militants dead, says here 150, that should be marked questionable as it is not certain, not verified thru independent means and Hamas did not confirm but denied that number, 150 is totally out of line, be careful with these numbers!
there are more than 20 countries listed with anti-israeli protests and fewer than five cities that the sources state had "small group of pro-israel" supporters opposing them, it gives undue weight to have any photos of tel aviv protestors.
i read the policy and it seems clear to that point.
"Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention overall as a majority view. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject. This applies not only to article text, but to images, wikilinks, external links, categories, and all other material as well."
also the photo of a rocket in israel and the chart of rockets fired into israel aren't balanced by a photo of an israeli strike or a chart of israeli incursions into gaza.
does anyone else think this needs to be fixed?
Untwirl (
talk)
05:18, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
its just that i have seen it reported that hamas rockets were often in retaliation for israeli incursions during the truce and before, and for npov we should include both. so perhaps either both charts or neither, and then have a timeline on a separate linked article? Untwirl ( talk) 09:10, 10 January 2009 (UTC) i'm sure this source would be challenged here ( http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=79964§ionid=3510304) but if these events are true they would probably be reported in other sources as well. Untwirl ( talk) 09:16, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
no one is questioning that "The Jewish State is 50% of this conflict. It should have 50% of the representation." Israeli statements and actions are to be given equal weight in this article, of course.
the purpose of this section is to discuss undue weight given to the photos of pro-israeli protestors considering they are "Views that are held by a tiny minority and should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views." according to wiki policy. do you dispute that across the world protests against israel's actions far outnumber protests " against hamas and against w:Qassam rocket."? if that is your stance then you should provide sources which say that. as far as i can see the world reaction has been decidedly against israel's actions, and therefor the tiny minority that protest for israel should not be included, and especially not have 2 photos. i am not fighting for the removal of the sentence that states there were pro-israel protests, even though i might believe it is against wiki policy, but the overabundance of photos goes too far.
and to your statement that "The Jewish State is 50% of this conflict. It should have 50% of the representation." i agree completely. therefore, to provide 50% coverage (and not 100%) of their reasons and effects of war on them, at least one chart and one photo showing the palestinian reasons and effects of war on them need to be posted, otherwise the photo of a rocket in israel and the chart of rockets fired into israel need to be removed. Untwirl ( talk) 18:09, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
RE: Rockets Chart, "its just that i have seen it reported that hamas rockets were often in retaliation for israeli incursions during the truce and before." During the period Jun 18 - Nov 4, Hamas vehemently denied being involved in any of the rockets. The misperception which you are demonstrating here is addressed in the article that clearly states Hamas's non-involvment in rocket attacks (which were minimal, only 2 rockets were launche in October) from the signign of the ceasefire until the incursion of Israeli military. If you'd liek to find a source talking about the rocket attacks before or after this period of the ceasefire I welcome their addition. Thrylos000 ( talk) 18:30, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
if the argument that hamas denied involvement in those rocket attacks is meant to refute my suggestion that israeli incursion be added, i think you have done the opposite. if you are accepting that assertion, then the chart of 2008 rocket attacks shouldn't be included at all, if they don't reflect actions by hamas to instigate this operation. if they do reflect that, then actions by israel to instigate those attacks are just as important for equal weight. Untwirl ( talk) 18:47, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm not at all refuting that and would welcome the addition, I simply don't have the data available to me. If you could have it I would argue for their inclusion. The chart is not included to argue Hamas instigated the attack, it is included so that readers can evaluate claims on both sides regarding rocket fire, especially during the truce, seeing as Israel has placed that at the center of their justifications for going to war. The chart clearly shows that rocket fire ceased nearly completely during the ceasefire period until the Israeli violation of the truce on Nov 4, and that is an important factual statement, supported by data from the IFMA itself. In my opinion it is not that favorable to the Israeli case at least as I read the situation. As I said in my previous post, Israel's main perceived transgressions during this period (Jun 18-Nov 4)were the continuing, crippling blockade and then the attack on Nov 4. These events are documented in the article. To my knowledge Israel was not carrying out attacks in Gaza during that period though I'm not that familiar with this specific issue. At least two rocket attacks are addressed individually in the article. One is the attack by Islamic Jihad , which the article states was carried out in retaliation to Israeli attacks in the West Bank. The other is the attack by al-Aqsa (Fatah) that Hamas claimed was an attempt to destabilize the truce and embarass Hamas. I would encourage you to find other sources that you think merit inclusion. Thrylos000 ( talk) 19:51, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Currently the infobox says that Hamas has lost 290 militants. I've only been able to find two sources for this: JPost (quoting the IDF) and CAMERA. Given the number of media sources reporting on the conflict (most newspapers and news sites are), I think there should be more than 2 sources to definitively state that the Hamas casualties are 290. VR talk 06:15, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Someone commented further up that they were relying on Palestinians for the civilian casualty count and Israelis for military casualty count. Of course both civilian dead and military dead are matters of propaganda and psychological warfare in the middle of a conflict, as per Jaak. It is invariably done by both sides. Since there are no "independent" observers in Gaza, it is absolutely best to wait until the dust and "fog of war" clears. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 16:36, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
The move discussion has been closed. The result was no action.-- Aervanath talks like a mover, but not a shaker 07:21, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
The article states:
"Besides Palestinian civilians, the large expatriate community living in Gaza has also been a victim to the attacks, many of them trapped and unable to leave due to the bombardment as well as the blockade on Gaza's borders. Before the attacks, thousands of foreigners were living in Gaza, and while many of them were allowed to leave during the attacks, hundreds still remain inside the territory, including nationals from several Western nations such as Canada, France, Norway, Poland, Sweden, and the United States."
Who are they, how many are there, and why are they there?-- Tomtom9041 ( talk) 11:29, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Ben Lynfield, writing from Ramallah, reports that West Bank Palestinians who did not sympathize with Hamas are defying the Palestinian Authority, protesting the Israeli aggression, and turning vehemently against Israel.
“ | "This is unbelievable," he said. "How will this help the Israelis? It only generates more recruits for Hamas." -- Bassem Khoury, the president of the Palestinian Federation of Industries, as quoted by Lynfield |
†|
Palestinian Authority security forces are keeping a tight lid on protests, preventing confrontations with Israeli troops and arresting anyone raising Hamas banners at rallies. But displays of identification with the beleaguered Gazans are everywhere. Nine-year-old green-kerchiefed girl Scouts, their foreheads marked with the word Gaza in red ink, were among those who marched through the main al-Manara square in a protest. They held up pictures of bandaged toddlers, and dozens of demonstrators chanted, "With blood and spirit, we will redeem you, O Gaza".
-- Ben Lynfield (2009-01-09). "The West Bank: We're all Hamas now - supporters of Fatah unite behind enemy". The Independent (UK). Retrieved 2009-01-10.
NonZionist ( talk) 16:51, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
The Red Cross is calling Israeli behavior "unacceptable" and is providing information about Israeli war-crimes. Pierre Wettlach describes one "shocking incident" -- four starving children next to their dead mothers. Wettlach charges that the IDF fails to assist the wounded, blocks ambulances, and inhibits rescue operations. Israel's claim that it does not intentionally target civilians suffered a blow to credibility when Israel attacked a UN school housing refugees and then tried unsuccessfully to blame Hamas.
Sources:
NonZionist ( talk) 18:52, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Since this is so relevant to the article and the current conflict, could someone more knowledgeable on this subject take a look at the History of Hamas article. There's been some concern on its discussion page that the article is being used as a soapbox between the two sides of the conflict. Are there any tags that could be added? Thank you. 71.31.154.140 ( talk) 20:17, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Needs to be re-written. Nothing wrong with the content, but the grammer is quite poor to the opint of being unsuitable for wikipedia. I would re-write it myself, but admittedly, by english ain't that great either ;) and the article desrves something a little more polished. Just my 2 cents.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.48.61.95 ( talk • contribs)
This comment is undated and therefore stuck so I'm just making a note so the bot will archive it. CarolMooreDC ( talk) 03:19, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I am trying not to address in this comment the question of whether certain arguments are correct or incorrect. There are many paces where i believe statement are wrong but i am not addressing those. I am addressing the lack of balance in the article and explaining what other information should be included and how certain changes should be made. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
This comment is undated and therefore stuck so I'm just making a note so the bot will archive it. CarolMooreDC ( talk) 03:19, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Could some administrator have a look what the newbie Agadaurbanit is doing? Rapid reverts, or insertions of material that consensus suggested was to be removed, no discussion, and the reverts are of things people have discussed, sometimes at length. Also removal of citation needed tags, as discussed on the talk page. This is, so far, a clear case of ninja-mongering or whatever. A severe warning seems apposite. Otherwise he and a few others are pressuring hoers in the field to get into revert battles. Nishidani ( talk) 21:13, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
This material about the IDF admitting that there were no militants in the school keeps getting removed:
The Israel Defense Forces initially claimed that mortars had been fired at Israeli forces from inside the school, and that Israeli soldiers had been responding to them. [3] [4]. With regard to the 2009 incident, according to Ynet, "The Israeli army claimed that terrorists were firing mortar shells from the school just moments before the strike. The IDF stated that a number of Hamas gunmen were inside the school, [5] and claimed to have found their bodies following the attack. [6] Hamas called the claims "baseless". [7] Residents of the neighborhood said that two Hamas fighters were in the area at the time of the attack, but that the mortar fire had not come from the school compound, but from elsewhere in the neighborhood. [8] The UN states that Israel privately briefed diplomats the following day that militant fire had come from outside the school compound, not from inside it. The official Israeli position remained that militant fire did come from the school compound [9], until the 9th. of January, when, according to UN sources, the army conceded unintentional wrongdoing in briefings to foreign diplomats. The IDF footage showing militants firing from the school was dated to 2007. The shelling they responded to did not originate from the school. [10]
Can AgadaUrbanit stop doing that? And stop inserting old, outdated theories first circulated by the IDF as though they were facts? And would someone mind restoring this? Thanks. Tiamut talk 03:16, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
done, if there is an issue with the language take it up here before removing well-sourced information. Nableezy ( talk) 03:51, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
It was just done again by the same user, can somebody restore? Nableezy ( talk) 04:11, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Sorry for undiscussed changes. Please let me clarify. There was a dispute between UNRWA and Israel if mortars were fired from "within" or from "immediate vicinity". Currently there is a consensus that Hamas mortar squad was near by and killed during the strike. There is no dispute that there is history of Hamas using UNRWA schools for firing mortars, UNRWA acknowledges it but denies any responsibility. I only wonder if Hamas which govern Gaza knew GPS coordinates of UNRWA school and fact that there were civilians inside before they started firing. Please consider removing last paragraph, it just tries to dispute Israel's credibility and does not add any new facts. Please be balanced. 23:07, 10 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by AgadaUrbanit ( talk • contribs)
Is there any other sources claiming that "9 January the IDF conceded that the attack was unintentional and no fire originated from the school." except for UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness? Chris Gunness asked opponents: "Please don’t put words in my mouth." for instance here [5]. Can not it be asked the same from Chris Gunness? AgadaUrbanit ( talk) 02:47, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
(What happened to the ref to the Norwegian doctors who contradicted the Israeli television network's 'investigation?') Trachys ( talk) 13:05, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
So as I was searching for photos related to the slaughtering of Gazans, I couldn't find any resources for copyright free photos for current events until I realized, Arabic Wiki!!! I thought they may have had tons but it turns out they have few. Anyway, please add http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%85%D9%84%D9%81:Gaza_criminal_Dec_2008_-2.jpg and http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%85%D9%84%D9%81:Gaza_criminal_Dec_2008_-1.jpg but please check if the status okay. -- 68.123.141.153 ( talk) 04:24, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Back to the subject at hand... the absence of non-copyrighted pictures doesn't justify the use of copyrighted pictures. It's forbidden by WP policy (not to mention by law and the universal moral code against stealing). Saepe Fidelis ( talk) 20:05, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Looks like the horror is set to continue. Tiamut talk 04:34, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps we should start a section on military equipment being used? And where it is coming from? Tiamut talk 04:37, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I think it is outside of the scope of this article, just as Iranian or other sources of funding for Hamas is outside of it. Nableezy ( talk) 04:47, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Tiamut can you look at my post above about the photos, and see if you can do anything about it. -- 68.123.141.153 ( talk) 05:14, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I hope someone does look at my post and act on it because the article appears like the Israeli version of the article. Seriously, look at the photos at the Israeli article, I don't understand why they don't rename their article to Hamas slaughter of Israelis or Holocaust 2, it seems that they think the Israelis are the victims of the assault on Gaza.-- 68.123.141.153 ( talk) 05:53, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Why is Greece allowing this? I wouldn't be surprised if the Anarchists et al hit the streets upon learning of the Greek gov't plan to allow the US to use it as shipment point. Very silly of the gov't. Greece's population on the whole is very sympathetic with the palestinians and has a general distaste for the US that is probably at an all time high right now. Strange move by an already weakened and barely legitimate gov't there. Thrylos000 ( talk) 06:13, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
In connexion with US assistance there are also "US officers deployed along Egypt-Rafah border". US Engineering Corps assisting the IDF in finding tunnels. I don't know if it's been mentioned before.-- 91.105.235.173 ( talk) 10:07, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
If we're gonna mention US aid, we should also mention Iran's peaceful intention of
sending 70,000 suicide bombers to Israel.
Rabend (
talk)
21:41, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm a bit lost. This started out as being about whether to include information about who is supplying weapons to the IDF. What was the eventual consensus ? My related issue is here. I'm not talking necessarily about specific incidents just broad simple statements e.g. if it says somewhere that Iran is supplying X then it should presumably say somewhere that the US admin are supplying Y. Maybe it does. I haven't checked yet. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:34, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Can someone place a note stating that three of the Israelis were killed by their own people? -- 68.123.141.153 ( talk) 05:59, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Hope these help : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/4128089/Israeli-soldiers-killed-by-friendly-fire-in-Gaza.html http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/05/israel.gaza/index.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7812885.stm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.242.163.88 ( talk) 21:25, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
'Of the Israeli casualties (*13), three were killed by ' friendly fire.' Nishidani ( talk) 14:29, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I know it's hard for you to take an objective "from the outside" look, but give it a try. This article looks like it's been written by the Palestinian Ministry of Public Relations. There is an overwhelming bias against Israel. Of course, it's all written subtly, but for the naive reader, it's pretty much made it clear who's right and who's wrong in this complex conflict.
By relying on "info" tidbits solely from the internet, which are inherently already filtered, and not on actual facts, we're acting as forensics, judge, jury and executioner for the naive reader. Even if the source is supposedly the neutral UN, we don't really know that. We don't really know who that "UN person" actually talked to. There is footage of a famous European anti-Israeli activist and Hamas people dressed as doctors, pretending to perform CPR on a small child. Of course, these "doctors" will later confirm to the press that "this boy" was "killed" by an Israeli shell, and this will end up here as fact. Gaza and Hamas are a far, far cry from the western, full-disclosure standards you are used to. It's a different culture altogether.
This is supposed to be a place of facts, particularly when such a volatile issue is involved. Not a place of more and more and more and more alleged incidents based on "according to..", which cognitively already paint the questionable pictures in the mind of the naive reader, leaving the dubious sources forgotten. Some of the incidents happened, some didn't. The actual death toll may be 2, and it may be 200. Hamas was firing from a civilian house, or it wasn't. WE DON'T KNOW. If we don't have actual facts, or statements agreed upon by both sides, we just don't write it. Yes, perhaps WP will have less volume this way, but it will have a higher truth-to-noise ratio.
I've been editing in this article for a few days now, and I watched it turn into a maelstrom of questionable newsflashes and aggressive decisions about notability to support certain views, populated primarily by editors (possibly unknowingly) representing one side of the conflict, some of whom vehemently and aggressively object to most views opposed to theirs, and resulting, unfortunately, in a subjective WP article. Is this what we would like WP to be?
Please take a minute to digest.
Rabend (
talk)
08:25, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I sympathize with some of the viewpoints put forward by the editor above. However, as Sean said above, I think it is essential to put forward concrete and specific examples of insertions that they feel are biased. There has been a lot of discussion on this talk page and I hope we continue this discussion in a fraternal spirit so that we can come up with something that is neutral and well sourced. Second, I understand that several editors have a vague feeling of discomfort with the 'tone' of the article. One possibility is that the article is not neutral. However, editors should also examine their own preconceptions. For example, Rabend states that "Gaza and Hamas are a far, far cry from the western, full-disclosure standards you are used to" which Boris seconds. Now, this makes me wonder if these editors want a neutral article at all. It seems that the demand is that we should start with a preconception -- that Hamas and its activities are less legitimate than the IDF -- and proceed from there. I think this is a POV and cannot be accepted. In any case, it is completely understandable that individual editors have strong views on a topic. However, I feel they should still judge whether or not a source is neutral and reliable. Quotations from Palestinian Media Watch have appeared on this page, with Boris stating that "this is not a propaganda website". In fact a quick look at their website reveals this summary of the conflict: "TO UNDERSTAND the causes of the Gaza conflict, it is essential to understand the Hamas ideology. Hamas presents itself as an Islamic supremacist movement... However, whereas many religions and cultures believe that their own traditions represent messages of truth, Hamas believes that this supremacy of Islam obligates them to commit genocide, literally to exterminate millions of people who have different beliefs, including the Jews." I think it is obvious that this is a very biased source with an agenda. I feel that to improve this article we need to avoid relying on sources like this and imposing our preconceptions. Jacob2718 ( talk) 13:19, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
"What is being hidden from the embittered public is that the launching of the Qassams could be stopped tomorrow morning."
-- Uri Avnery, "Worse Than a Crime", 26 Jan 2008
It is interesting how people seem to be forgetting that Hamas is Israel's enemy here and that Hamas is insisting on continuing to fight. It is not as if Hamas is an innocent party, never attacking innocents. In fact that is about all they have attacked. I guess we have forgotten (or wish to) that Hamas has been responsible for killing Israeli (and other) civilians in hotels, dance halls, restaurants, buses, school buses, etc etc? Tundrabuggy ( talk) 17:31, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
"Israeli soldiers killed twice as many Palestinians last week alone -- both of them children -- as the number of Israelis killed by Hamas all last year."
-- "Israel's shooting of young girl highlights international hypocrisy, say Palestinians", Guardian(UK), 30 Jan 2006
"92 Palestinian children were killed (fortunately, not a single Israeli child was killed by Palestinians, despite the Qassams). One-fifth of the Palestinians killed were children and teens - a disproportionate, almost unprecedented number."
-- Levy, "Twilight Zone / The children of 5767", 28 Sep 2007
I strongly disagree that this article has an anti-Israeli bias. Some people seem to think that stating facts, like putting the casualty figures from each side in the article, is biased. Its not anti Israeli to state that more Palestinians than Israelis have died. Its not anti Israeli to give more weight to war plane attacks that are killing 50 Palestinians a day than to rocket attacks that 'lightly wound' 5 Israelis a day. And its not anti Israeli to mention that 43 people, mostly innocents, were killed in an attack on a school. These are facts, not opinions.
In fact I've even noticed that most mention of incidents such as the shooting of the UN aid workers has been removed. There are more pictures of Qassam rockets than of Israeli attacks. There is more mention in terms of the causes of Qassam attacks than of the Israeli blockade and air strikes. If anything I'd suggest there is a (slight) pro-Israel bias.
But, given that people are suggesting it's biased both ways, I'd suggest the article is pretty fair. And given the circumstances, I'd say that's quite impressive. Jandrews23jandrews23 ( talk) 17:15, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Rabend, while I respect your opinion, I am at a loss to comprehend statements like "I have no idea what kind of reality you're talking about when you refer to "two contexts". There is one history, and that one includes Hamas carrying out numerous terrorist attacks." While we may have differing personal views on this conflict, I think the least we can do is realize that there are several possible viewpoints on this conflict, not one. The point of writing a neutral article is to appreciate and accurately report on these viewpoints with sources and evidence. One cannot start from a perspective that there is "one history" and expect to do be objective. Jacob2718 ( talk) 18:44, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I will only add, that if this article is not clearly pro-Israel it will be looked at as being anti-Israel(that is the standard). Editors with common sense and a shed of dignity shown by NonZionist above, should keep this in mind when looking at this article. Cryptonio ( talk) 20:19, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I agree with the gist of okedem's statement above. This article used to be reasonably neutral but is now biased against Israel on a macro as well as micro level, to the extent that it is looking less and less like an encyclopedia article on a conflict and more like - I don't know - a meticulously sourced blog written by "IhateZionists". My favorite example is that Israeli attempts to warn Gaza civilians of attacks are included in the "Israel public relations campaign" section. This has been the case for how many days now, and nobody sees enough of a problem with this to fix it. (I can't make edits until autoconfirmed, so nobody accuse me of whining.) Jalapenos do exist ( talk) 00:33, 11 January 2009 (UTC) Taking a moment to agree with okedem and jalapenos. As somebody who doesn't have enough stake in the conflict to want to take the time to edit the article/feud with a couple of "non-Zionists" who seem to be almost exclusively editing the article, I concur that the article has an anti-Israel bias and is slowly creeping towards the point of being near-useless as an encyclopedic piece. Kaylorcc ( talk) 02:56, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I've read everyone's comments here and I have to say that you are smart people with interesting things to say. However, my conclusion is that, like the jury swop in the Al Capone tax evasion trial it would perhaps be better if we all stop editing this article and hand it over to the people who only edit the Brazilian football articles. You know it makes sense. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:38, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
"UNRWA shelters are marked and their GPS locations are provided to the IDF..." [11]AND the UN "knows" this how?-- Tomtom9041 ( talk) 10:01, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
That is called speculation or assumption. You know ASSuMing = Making an Ass out of You and Me. Don't we expect better out of the UN?-- 98.111.139.133 ( talk) 10:33, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
UN = Useless Nations?-- 209.213.220.227 ( talk) 14:40, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
WanderSage ( talk) 23:24, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Despite extensive discussions that support the inclusion of casualty figures, from both sides, in the lead someone persists in removing them. I would like to refer these editors to the discussions here and here. Several editors felt that the human cost of the war is its single most important consequence and this should be mentioned upfront.
I do not intend to start another discussion here; merely to point out that it is inappropriate to remove this paragraph (which is well sourced and reflects an established talk page consensus) without either an edit summary or a note on the talk page. Moreover, I wish to bring this to broader attention: others who are following this article, please watch out for further ninja edits of this kind. thanks, Jacob2718 ( talk) 13:46, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Addition: This was removed by User:WanderSage, here. The corresponding edit summary reads, "Once again, superflorous information in the lead article. The final article is for the UN ceasefire. Please see discussion if you wish to reinstate"
I was unable to find a corresponding message on either the Lead Talk page or here. The UN ceasefire is not relevant to the casualty figures and this information is definitely not superfluous. I respect the fact that individual editors have differing viewpoints on this issue, but the reversal of a talk page consensus requires discussion. Posting this here to bring this to everyone's attention. Jacob2718 ( talk) 14:09, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Gareth Porter reports that Hamas offered to extend the ceasefire in mid-December and Israel rejected the offer. Porter cites "a U.S.-based source who has been briefed on the proposal.".
The proposal to renew the cease-fire was presented by a high-level Hamas delegation to Egyptian Minister of Intelligence Omar Suleiman at a meeting in Cairo Dec. 14. The delegation, said to have included Moussa Abu Marzouk, the second-ranking official in the Hamas political bureau in Damascus, told Suleiman that Hamas was prepared to stop all rocket attacks against Israel if the Israelis would open up the Gaza border crossings and pledge not to launch attacks in Gaza. Gareth Porter (2009-01-10). "Israel Rejected Hamas Cease-Fire Offer in December". antiwar.com. Retrieved 2009-01-10.
This casts even more doubt on the Israeli claim that its Gaza slaughter is a response to homemade rocket attacks, and lends support to those who contend that the current aggression against Gaza is simply the next phase in a 100-year-long campaign of genocide.
NonZionist (
talk)
16:28, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
"Hamas proposed in mid-December to return to the original Hamas-Israel cease-fire arrangement, according to a "U.S.-based source" who has been "briefed" on the proposal". Care to provide a known and clear source for the information? Who is that "briefed U.S. source" -
Joe the Plumber?
- The readiness of Hamas to return to the cease-fire conditionally in mid-December was confirmed by Dr. Robert Pastor, a professor at American University and senior adviser to the Carter Center, who met with Khaled Meshal, chairman of the Hamas political bureau in Damascus on Dec. 14, along with former President Jimmy Carter. Pastor told IPS that Meshal indicated Hamas was willing to go back to the cease-fire that had been in effect up to early November "if there was a sign that Israel would lift the siege on Gaza."
- -- Gareth Porter (2009-01-10). "Israel Rejected Hamas Cease-Fire Offer in December". antiwar.com. Retrieved 2009-01-10.
Gareth Porter's article, sourced to the Huffington Post. This is quite an important document for the background, and should eventually be harvested for the light it throws on it. Hamas, it is argued, actually accepted to renew the truce in mid-December. See Diskin's remark. Nishidani ( talk) 18:16, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Nishidani ( talk) 18:18, 10 January 2009 (UTC)'The interest of Hamas in a ceasefire agreement that would actually open the border crossings was acknowledged at a Dec. 21 Israeli cabinet meeting -- five days before the beginning of the Israeli military offensive -- by Yuval Diskin, the head of Israel's internal security agency, Shin Bet. "Make no mistake, Hamas is interested in maintaining the truce," Diskin was quoted by Y-net News agency as saying. Israel's rejection of the Hamas December proposal reflected its preference for maintaining Israel's primary leverage over Hamas and the Palestinian population of Gaza -- its ability to choke off food and goods required for the viability of its economy -- even at the cost of continued Palestinian rocket attacks.'
Usually Tiamut, I am a bit annoyed by your comments, not because they are pro-Palestinian but rather since they are well sourced, coherent and convincing. As a pro-Israeli commentator it compels to re-visit what I believe to be true in this conflict. Obviously you excel in research, method and logic. This time however, I must say I find your examples weak. The fact that others also use genocidal terminology doesn't add nothing to NonZionist's credibility. Rather, it diminishes theirs as well. Ascribing the State of Israel, as a whole, with hidden genocidal motives - i.e. that while claiming to try not to harm civilians Israel actually secretly plans to wipe the Palestinians from the face of the earth - falls very short, in my opinion, from trying to re-validate the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.-- Omrim ( talk) 02:29, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi Omrim. I've gathered from your comments on this page that you are Israeli, that you have sensibilities I appreciate, and that you've shown remarkable open-mindedness during what must be emotionally charged times. I should say I'm Christian and from India. In my opinion, the State of Israel does have a vested interest in making life as miserable as possible for the Palestinians, with a view to forcing them off Palestine. Israel was after all, founded on land stolen from the Palestinians. The very house you live in, Omrim, is probably built on land taken from some Palestinian family, who've likely been forced to live as refugees for more than 60 years - why, they might very well be suffering in Gaza right now! "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", that's all bullshit of course. But these are simple truths. I can't help wonder how you reconcile with these facts -- vvarkey ( talk) 07:26, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
'By politicide I mean a process that has, as its ultimate goal, the dissolution of the Palestinian people's existence as a legitimate social, political, and economic entity. This process may also but not necessarily include their partial or complete ethnic cleansing from the territory known as the Land of Israel. '
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | → | Archive 20 |
Several pieces of contentious text have been inserted in the article.
The first states that "300 Israeli Websites were defaced,[315][316] all of which were interpreted to be in response to the conflict." You can follow the chain of sources back and they lead from one website to another till they end up at a blog! This blog give no details of which websites were hacked and is titled "Radical Muslim Hackers Declare CyberWar on Israel". I've never heard of the blogger before and there is really no reason to give credence to an obscure blogger when s/he doesnt provide a list of the 300 sites alleged to be hacked. Please look into this. I think this sentence needs to be removed.
Second, despite the discussion above, someone has persisted in inserting images of a protest in Tel-Aviv. Once again, these images are not backed by a single reliable source. Did these protests happen before the attacks or after? Why are these protests notable? Which mainstream media sources reported on these protests? None of these questions are answered. In fact, the images themselves seem to come from a personal flickr website. This is definitely original research. In addition, the caption of the second image reads: "Tel-Aviv University students protest unlawful holding of Gilad Shalit by hamas as a hostage to their demands.Gilad Shalit has been a hostage for more than 900 days.Shalit's denied rights to Red Cross (ICRC) visitation, which is a violation of international law." with no sources for these claims.
This needs to be removed also. I would welcome the inclusion of a diversity of images but they need to be well sourced and notable. Jacob2718 ( talk) 21:46, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
i agree. when there are more than 20 countries listed with anti-israeli protests and fewer than five cities that the sources state had "small group of pro-israel" supporters opposing them, it gives undue weight to have any photos of tel aviv protestors. Untwirl ( talk) 03:46, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
either balance out the pic at the bottom with a "Other Side" pic, or remove it entirely thank you very much 78.40.176.241 ( talk) 22:48, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Of course, it's "POV". Every edit is based on "POV". It is impossible to talk about an issue with the article without alleging it's "POV", as there is no other explanation for the fact that the article is not -- and never will be -- perfect. And, no one will listen to you unless you say "POV". -- tariqabjotu 03:21, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
There's a lot of crap being shovelled into the article recently. For example:
During the 8 January three-hour truce period, a UN driver was killed during an exchange of fire. The UN originally maintained that he died from Israeli fire, [1] though this was later put into doubt. [2]
The source cited for this claim is this article. Please note what the source says:
According to the foreign media, who based their information on UN sources, IDF tank shells blasted the truck. According to the Magen David Adom medic who claimed to have taken the Palestinians to an Israeli hospital, the truck actually came under Hamas sniper fire.
The medic, who asked not to be named, said he got his information from soldiers in the field, but by press time - some eight hours after the incident - the IDF Spokesman's Office was still unable to provide a response or to establish contact with the relevant sources in the field.
Adding to the confusion, the Palestinian Red Crescent Society said it had evacuated the victims, but the MDA medic said soldiers told him they had gone in, at great personal risk, to evacuate the wounded Palestinians
What is certain is that there is one dead Palestinian, and two others being treated at Ashkelon's Barzilai Medical Center for gunshot wounds.
Not sufficient evidence I'm afraid that the story being reported by every other media organization, the UN, Palestinian medics whose names are on record, etc., is "in doubt". The phrasing of the sentence also implies the UN has changed its position, which it has not. Let's wait and see how the story develops before treating this with equal weight to mainstream narrative so far. K? Tiamut talk 00:08, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
MiszaBot edit summary: "(Archiving 44 thread(s) (older than 3h) to Talk:2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict/Archive 10, Talk:2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict/Archive 11.)"
I removed the incorrect hidden note from the top section of the talk page:
A thread I started less than 24 hours ago was archived. I returned it to the current talk page. If you see other recent threads archived you may want to return some of them if you feel you did not have a chance to finish the discussion.
I changed the algo setting from 3h (3 hours) to 24h (24 hours). Whoever set it up originally did not get consensus for the time period as is required. What should be the time period of inactivity before a section is archived here? 24 hours? 36 hours? 48 hours? -- Timeshifter ( talk) 03:48, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
This is copied from my talk page in reference to my request to Flayer for more info on his sources for the total number of Israeli wounded in the infobox:
The 2 links are the ones currently in the infobox to verify ( WP:V) the total number of Israeli soldiers wounded. Can someone else besides Flayer verify that the sources say what he says they say?
I think the numbers are probably fairly accurate since we also have this:
OCHA oPt ( United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory).
-- Timeshifter ( talk) 18:40, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
Just a quick look at history convinces me a few editors may have engaged in this, which could lead to being blocked for a period of time, so a reminder: Contributors must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period, whether or not the edits involve the same material, except in certain circumstances. A "page" is any page on Wikipedia, including talk and project space. A revert is any action, including administrative actions, that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part. A series of consecutive saved revert edits by one user with no intervening edits by another user counts as one revert. CarolMooreDC ( talk) 20:26, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
As you can see israel is not allowing reporters in, my understanding is there are many more dead soldiers, at least 11, I'd be careful with these edits. Be careful with militants dead, says here 150, that should be marked questionable as it is not certain, not verified thru independent means and Hamas did not confirm but denied that number, 150 is totally out of line, be careful with these numbers!
there are more than 20 countries listed with anti-israeli protests and fewer than five cities that the sources state had "small group of pro-israel" supporters opposing them, it gives undue weight to have any photos of tel aviv protestors.
i read the policy and it seems clear to that point.
"Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention overall as a majority view. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject. This applies not only to article text, but to images, wikilinks, external links, categories, and all other material as well."
also the photo of a rocket in israel and the chart of rockets fired into israel aren't balanced by a photo of an israeli strike or a chart of israeli incursions into gaza.
does anyone else think this needs to be fixed?
Untwirl (
talk)
05:18, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
its just that i have seen it reported that hamas rockets were often in retaliation for israeli incursions during the truce and before, and for npov we should include both. so perhaps either both charts or neither, and then have a timeline on a separate linked article? Untwirl ( talk) 09:10, 10 January 2009 (UTC) i'm sure this source would be challenged here ( http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=79964§ionid=3510304) but if these events are true they would probably be reported in other sources as well. Untwirl ( talk) 09:16, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
no one is questioning that "The Jewish State is 50% of this conflict. It should have 50% of the representation." Israeli statements and actions are to be given equal weight in this article, of course.
the purpose of this section is to discuss undue weight given to the photos of pro-israeli protestors considering they are "Views that are held by a tiny minority and should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views." according to wiki policy. do you dispute that across the world protests against israel's actions far outnumber protests " against hamas and against w:Qassam rocket."? if that is your stance then you should provide sources which say that. as far as i can see the world reaction has been decidedly against israel's actions, and therefor the tiny minority that protest for israel should not be included, and especially not have 2 photos. i am not fighting for the removal of the sentence that states there were pro-israel protests, even though i might believe it is against wiki policy, but the overabundance of photos goes too far.
and to your statement that "The Jewish State is 50% of this conflict. It should have 50% of the representation." i agree completely. therefore, to provide 50% coverage (and not 100%) of their reasons and effects of war on them, at least one chart and one photo showing the palestinian reasons and effects of war on them need to be posted, otherwise the photo of a rocket in israel and the chart of rockets fired into israel need to be removed. Untwirl ( talk) 18:09, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
RE: Rockets Chart, "its just that i have seen it reported that hamas rockets were often in retaliation for israeli incursions during the truce and before." During the period Jun 18 - Nov 4, Hamas vehemently denied being involved in any of the rockets. The misperception which you are demonstrating here is addressed in the article that clearly states Hamas's non-involvment in rocket attacks (which were minimal, only 2 rockets were launche in October) from the signign of the ceasefire until the incursion of Israeli military. If you'd liek to find a source talking about the rocket attacks before or after this period of the ceasefire I welcome their addition. Thrylos000 ( talk) 18:30, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
if the argument that hamas denied involvement in those rocket attacks is meant to refute my suggestion that israeli incursion be added, i think you have done the opposite. if you are accepting that assertion, then the chart of 2008 rocket attacks shouldn't be included at all, if they don't reflect actions by hamas to instigate this operation. if they do reflect that, then actions by israel to instigate those attacks are just as important for equal weight. Untwirl ( talk) 18:47, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm not at all refuting that and would welcome the addition, I simply don't have the data available to me. If you could have it I would argue for their inclusion. The chart is not included to argue Hamas instigated the attack, it is included so that readers can evaluate claims on both sides regarding rocket fire, especially during the truce, seeing as Israel has placed that at the center of their justifications for going to war. The chart clearly shows that rocket fire ceased nearly completely during the ceasefire period until the Israeli violation of the truce on Nov 4, and that is an important factual statement, supported by data from the IFMA itself. In my opinion it is not that favorable to the Israeli case at least as I read the situation. As I said in my previous post, Israel's main perceived transgressions during this period (Jun 18-Nov 4)were the continuing, crippling blockade and then the attack on Nov 4. These events are documented in the article. To my knowledge Israel was not carrying out attacks in Gaza during that period though I'm not that familiar with this specific issue. At least two rocket attacks are addressed individually in the article. One is the attack by Islamic Jihad , which the article states was carried out in retaliation to Israeli attacks in the West Bank. The other is the attack by al-Aqsa (Fatah) that Hamas claimed was an attempt to destabilize the truce and embarass Hamas. I would encourage you to find other sources that you think merit inclusion. Thrylos000 ( talk) 19:51, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Currently the infobox says that Hamas has lost 290 militants. I've only been able to find two sources for this: JPost (quoting the IDF) and CAMERA. Given the number of media sources reporting on the conflict (most newspapers and news sites are), I think there should be more than 2 sources to definitively state that the Hamas casualties are 290. VR talk 06:15, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Someone commented further up that they were relying on Palestinians for the civilian casualty count and Israelis for military casualty count. Of course both civilian dead and military dead are matters of propaganda and psychological warfare in the middle of a conflict, as per Jaak. It is invariably done by both sides. Since there are no "independent" observers in Gaza, it is absolutely best to wait until the dust and "fog of war" clears. Tundrabuggy ( talk) 16:36, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
The move discussion has been closed. The result was no action.-- Aervanath talks like a mover, but not a shaker 07:21, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
The article states:
"Besides Palestinian civilians, the large expatriate community living in Gaza has also been a victim to the attacks, many of them trapped and unable to leave due to the bombardment as well as the blockade on Gaza's borders. Before the attacks, thousands of foreigners were living in Gaza, and while many of them were allowed to leave during the attacks, hundreds still remain inside the territory, including nationals from several Western nations such as Canada, France, Norway, Poland, Sweden, and the United States."
Who are they, how many are there, and why are they there?-- Tomtom9041 ( talk) 11:29, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Ben Lynfield, writing from Ramallah, reports that West Bank Palestinians who did not sympathize with Hamas are defying the Palestinian Authority, protesting the Israeli aggression, and turning vehemently against Israel.
“ | "This is unbelievable," he said. "How will this help the Israelis? It only generates more recruits for Hamas." -- Bassem Khoury, the president of the Palestinian Federation of Industries, as quoted by Lynfield |
†|
Palestinian Authority security forces are keeping a tight lid on protests, preventing confrontations with Israeli troops and arresting anyone raising Hamas banners at rallies. But displays of identification with the beleaguered Gazans are everywhere. Nine-year-old green-kerchiefed girl Scouts, their foreheads marked with the word Gaza in red ink, were among those who marched through the main al-Manara square in a protest. They held up pictures of bandaged toddlers, and dozens of demonstrators chanted, "With blood and spirit, we will redeem you, O Gaza".
-- Ben Lynfield (2009-01-09). "The West Bank: We're all Hamas now - supporters of Fatah unite behind enemy". The Independent (UK). Retrieved 2009-01-10.
NonZionist ( talk) 16:51, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
The Red Cross is calling Israeli behavior "unacceptable" and is providing information about Israeli war-crimes. Pierre Wettlach describes one "shocking incident" -- four starving children next to their dead mothers. Wettlach charges that the IDF fails to assist the wounded, blocks ambulances, and inhibits rescue operations. Israel's claim that it does not intentionally target civilians suffered a blow to credibility when Israel attacked a UN school housing refugees and then tried unsuccessfully to blame Hamas.
Sources:
NonZionist ( talk) 18:52, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Since this is so relevant to the article and the current conflict, could someone more knowledgeable on this subject take a look at the History of Hamas article. There's been some concern on its discussion page that the article is being used as a soapbox between the two sides of the conflict. Are there any tags that could be added? Thank you. 71.31.154.140 ( talk) 20:17, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Needs to be re-written. Nothing wrong with the content, but the grammer is quite poor to the opint of being unsuitable for wikipedia. I would re-write it myself, but admittedly, by english ain't that great either ;) and the article desrves something a little more polished. Just my 2 cents.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.48.61.95 ( talk • contribs)
This comment is undated and therefore stuck so I'm just making a note so the bot will archive it. CarolMooreDC ( talk) 03:19, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I am trying not to address in this comment the question of whether certain arguments are correct or incorrect. There are many paces where i believe statement are wrong but i am not addressing those. I am addressing the lack of balance in the article and explaining what other information should be included and how certain changes should be made. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
This comment is undated and therefore stuck so I'm just making a note so the bot will archive it. CarolMooreDC ( talk) 03:19, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Could some administrator have a look what the newbie Agadaurbanit is doing? Rapid reverts, or insertions of material that consensus suggested was to be removed, no discussion, and the reverts are of things people have discussed, sometimes at length. Also removal of citation needed tags, as discussed on the talk page. This is, so far, a clear case of ninja-mongering or whatever. A severe warning seems apposite. Otherwise he and a few others are pressuring hoers in the field to get into revert battles. Nishidani ( talk) 21:13, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
This material about the IDF admitting that there were no militants in the school keeps getting removed:
The Israel Defense Forces initially claimed that mortars had been fired at Israeli forces from inside the school, and that Israeli soldiers had been responding to them. [3] [4]. With regard to the 2009 incident, according to Ynet, "The Israeli army claimed that terrorists were firing mortar shells from the school just moments before the strike. The IDF stated that a number of Hamas gunmen were inside the school, [5] and claimed to have found their bodies following the attack. [6] Hamas called the claims "baseless". [7] Residents of the neighborhood said that two Hamas fighters were in the area at the time of the attack, but that the mortar fire had not come from the school compound, but from elsewhere in the neighborhood. [8] The UN states that Israel privately briefed diplomats the following day that militant fire had come from outside the school compound, not from inside it. The official Israeli position remained that militant fire did come from the school compound [9], until the 9th. of January, when, according to UN sources, the army conceded unintentional wrongdoing in briefings to foreign diplomats. The IDF footage showing militants firing from the school was dated to 2007. The shelling they responded to did not originate from the school. [10]
Can AgadaUrbanit stop doing that? And stop inserting old, outdated theories first circulated by the IDF as though they were facts? And would someone mind restoring this? Thanks. Tiamut talk 03:16, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
done, if there is an issue with the language take it up here before removing well-sourced information. Nableezy ( talk) 03:51, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
It was just done again by the same user, can somebody restore? Nableezy ( talk) 04:11, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Sorry for undiscussed changes. Please let me clarify. There was a dispute between UNRWA and Israel if mortars were fired from "within" or from "immediate vicinity". Currently there is a consensus that Hamas mortar squad was near by and killed during the strike. There is no dispute that there is history of Hamas using UNRWA schools for firing mortars, UNRWA acknowledges it but denies any responsibility. I only wonder if Hamas which govern Gaza knew GPS coordinates of UNRWA school and fact that there were civilians inside before they started firing. Please consider removing last paragraph, it just tries to dispute Israel's credibility and does not add any new facts. Please be balanced. 23:07, 10 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by AgadaUrbanit ( talk • contribs)
Is there any other sources claiming that "9 January the IDF conceded that the attack was unintentional and no fire originated from the school." except for UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness? Chris Gunness asked opponents: "Please don’t put words in my mouth." for instance here [5]. Can not it be asked the same from Chris Gunness? AgadaUrbanit ( talk) 02:47, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
(What happened to the ref to the Norwegian doctors who contradicted the Israeli television network's 'investigation?') Trachys ( talk) 13:05, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
So as I was searching for photos related to the slaughtering of Gazans, I couldn't find any resources for copyright free photos for current events until I realized, Arabic Wiki!!! I thought they may have had tons but it turns out they have few. Anyway, please add http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%85%D9%84%D9%81:Gaza_criminal_Dec_2008_-2.jpg and http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%85%D9%84%D9%81:Gaza_criminal_Dec_2008_-1.jpg but please check if the status okay. -- 68.123.141.153 ( talk) 04:24, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Back to the subject at hand... the absence of non-copyrighted pictures doesn't justify the use of copyrighted pictures. It's forbidden by WP policy (not to mention by law and the universal moral code against stealing). Saepe Fidelis ( talk) 20:05, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Looks like the horror is set to continue. Tiamut talk 04:34, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps we should start a section on military equipment being used? And where it is coming from? Tiamut talk 04:37, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I think it is outside of the scope of this article, just as Iranian or other sources of funding for Hamas is outside of it. Nableezy ( talk) 04:47, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Tiamut can you look at my post above about the photos, and see if you can do anything about it. -- 68.123.141.153 ( talk) 05:14, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I hope someone does look at my post and act on it because the article appears like the Israeli version of the article. Seriously, look at the photos at the Israeli article, I don't understand why they don't rename their article to Hamas slaughter of Israelis or Holocaust 2, it seems that they think the Israelis are the victims of the assault on Gaza.-- 68.123.141.153 ( talk) 05:53, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Why is Greece allowing this? I wouldn't be surprised if the Anarchists et al hit the streets upon learning of the Greek gov't plan to allow the US to use it as shipment point. Very silly of the gov't. Greece's population on the whole is very sympathetic with the palestinians and has a general distaste for the US that is probably at an all time high right now. Strange move by an already weakened and barely legitimate gov't there. Thrylos000 ( talk) 06:13, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
In connexion with US assistance there are also "US officers deployed along Egypt-Rafah border". US Engineering Corps assisting the IDF in finding tunnels. I don't know if it's been mentioned before.-- 91.105.235.173 ( talk) 10:07, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
If we're gonna mention US aid, we should also mention Iran's peaceful intention of
sending 70,000 suicide bombers to Israel.
Rabend (
talk)
21:41, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm a bit lost. This started out as being about whether to include information about who is supplying weapons to the IDF. What was the eventual consensus ? My related issue is here. I'm not talking necessarily about specific incidents just broad simple statements e.g. if it says somewhere that Iran is supplying X then it should presumably say somewhere that the US admin are supplying Y. Maybe it does. I haven't checked yet. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:34, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Can someone place a note stating that three of the Israelis were killed by their own people? -- 68.123.141.153 ( talk) 05:59, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Hope these help : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/4128089/Israeli-soldiers-killed-by-friendly-fire-in-Gaza.html http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/05/israel.gaza/index.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7812885.stm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.242.163.88 ( talk) 21:25, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
'Of the Israeli casualties (*13), three were killed by ' friendly fire.' Nishidani ( talk) 14:29, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I know it's hard for you to take an objective "from the outside" look, but give it a try. This article looks like it's been written by the Palestinian Ministry of Public Relations. There is an overwhelming bias against Israel. Of course, it's all written subtly, but for the naive reader, it's pretty much made it clear who's right and who's wrong in this complex conflict.
By relying on "info" tidbits solely from the internet, which are inherently already filtered, and not on actual facts, we're acting as forensics, judge, jury and executioner for the naive reader. Even if the source is supposedly the neutral UN, we don't really know that. We don't really know who that "UN person" actually talked to. There is footage of a famous European anti-Israeli activist and Hamas people dressed as doctors, pretending to perform CPR on a small child. Of course, these "doctors" will later confirm to the press that "this boy" was "killed" by an Israeli shell, and this will end up here as fact. Gaza and Hamas are a far, far cry from the western, full-disclosure standards you are used to. It's a different culture altogether.
This is supposed to be a place of facts, particularly when such a volatile issue is involved. Not a place of more and more and more and more alleged incidents based on "according to..", which cognitively already paint the questionable pictures in the mind of the naive reader, leaving the dubious sources forgotten. Some of the incidents happened, some didn't. The actual death toll may be 2, and it may be 200. Hamas was firing from a civilian house, or it wasn't. WE DON'T KNOW. If we don't have actual facts, or statements agreed upon by both sides, we just don't write it. Yes, perhaps WP will have less volume this way, but it will have a higher truth-to-noise ratio.
I've been editing in this article for a few days now, and I watched it turn into a maelstrom of questionable newsflashes and aggressive decisions about notability to support certain views, populated primarily by editors (possibly unknowingly) representing one side of the conflict, some of whom vehemently and aggressively object to most views opposed to theirs, and resulting, unfortunately, in a subjective WP article. Is this what we would like WP to be?
Please take a minute to digest.
Rabend (
talk)
08:25, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I sympathize with some of the viewpoints put forward by the editor above. However, as Sean said above, I think it is essential to put forward concrete and specific examples of insertions that they feel are biased. There has been a lot of discussion on this talk page and I hope we continue this discussion in a fraternal spirit so that we can come up with something that is neutral and well sourced. Second, I understand that several editors have a vague feeling of discomfort with the 'tone' of the article. One possibility is that the article is not neutral. However, editors should also examine their own preconceptions. For example, Rabend states that "Gaza and Hamas are a far, far cry from the western, full-disclosure standards you are used to" which Boris seconds. Now, this makes me wonder if these editors want a neutral article at all. It seems that the demand is that we should start with a preconception -- that Hamas and its activities are less legitimate than the IDF -- and proceed from there. I think this is a POV and cannot be accepted. In any case, it is completely understandable that individual editors have strong views on a topic. However, I feel they should still judge whether or not a source is neutral and reliable. Quotations from Palestinian Media Watch have appeared on this page, with Boris stating that "this is not a propaganda website". In fact a quick look at their website reveals this summary of the conflict: "TO UNDERSTAND the causes of the Gaza conflict, it is essential to understand the Hamas ideology. Hamas presents itself as an Islamic supremacist movement... However, whereas many religions and cultures believe that their own traditions represent messages of truth, Hamas believes that this supremacy of Islam obligates them to commit genocide, literally to exterminate millions of people who have different beliefs, including the Jews." I think it is obvious that this is a very biased source with an agenda. I feel that to improve this article we need to avoid relying on sources like this and imposing our preconceptions. Jacob2718 ( talk) 13:19, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
"What is being hidden from the embittered public is that the launching of the Qassams could be stopped tomorrow morning."
-- Uri Avnery, "Worse Than a Crime", 26 Jan 2008
It is interesting how people seem to be forgetting that Hamas is Israel's enemy here and that Hamas is insisting on continuing to fight. It is not as if Hamas is an innocent party, never attacking innocents. In fact that is about all they have attacked. I guess we have forgotten (or wish to) that Hamas has been responsible for killing Israeli (and other) civilians in hotels, dance halls, restaurants, buses, school buses, etc etc? Tundrabuggy ( talk) 17:31, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
"Israeli soldiers killed twice as many Palestinians last week alone -- both of them children -- as the number of Israelis killed by Hamas all last year."
-- "Israel's shooting of young girl highlights international hypocrisy, say Palestinians", Guardian(UK), 30 Jan 2006
"92 Palestinian children were killed (fortunately, not a single Israeli child was killed by Palestinians, despite the Qassams). One-fifth of the Palestinians killed were children and teens - a disproportionate, almost unprecedented number."
-- Levy, "Twilight Zone / The children of 5767", 28 Sep 2007
I strongly disagree that this article has an anti-Israeli bias. Some people seem to think that stating facts, like putting the casualty figures from each side in the article, is biased. Its not anti Israeli to state that more Palestinians than Israelis have died. Its not anti Israeli to give more weight to war plane attacks that are killing 50 Palestinians a day than to rocket attacks that 'lightly wound' 5 Israelis a day. And its not anti Israeli to mention that 43 people, mostly innocents, were killed in an attack on a school. These are facts, not opinions.
In fact I've even noticed that most mention of incidents such as the shooting of the UN aid workers has been removed. There are more pictures of Qassam rockets than of Israeli attacks. There is more mention in terms of the causes of Qassam attacks than of the Israeli blockade and air strikes. If anything I'd suggest there is a (slight) pro-Israel bias.
But, given that people are suggesting it's biased both ways, I'd suggest the article is pretty fair. And given the circumstances, I'd say that's quite impressive. Jandrews23jandrews23 ( talk) 17:15, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Rabend, while I respect your opinion, I am at a loss to comprehend statements like "I have no idea what kind of reality you're talking about when you refer to "two contexts". There is one history, and that one includes Hamas carrying out numerous terrorist attacks." While we may have differing personal views on this conflict, I think the least we can do is realize that there are several possible viewpoints on this conflict, not one. The point of writing a neutral article is to appreciate and accurately report on these viewpoints with sources and evidence. One cannot start from a perspective that there is "one history" and expect to do be objective. Jacob2718 ( talk) 18:44, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
I will only add, that if this article is not clearly pro-Israel it will be looked at as being anti-Israel(that is the standard). Editors with common sense and a shed of dignity shown by NonZionist above, should keep this in mind when looking at this article. Cryptonio ( talk) 20:19, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I agree with the gist of okedem's statement above. This article used to be reasonably neutral but is now biased against Israel on a macro as well as micro level, to the extent that it is looking less and less like an encyclopedia article on a conflict and more like - I don't know - a meticulously sourced blog written by "IhateZionists". My favorite example is that Israeli attempts to warn Gaza civilians of attacks are included in the "Israel public relations campaign" section. This has been the case for how many days now, and nobody sees enough of a problem with this to fix it. (I can't make edits until autoconfirmed, so nobody accuse me of whining.) Jalapenos do exist ( talk) 00:33, 11 January 2009 (UTC) Taking a moment to agree with okedem and jalapenos. As somebody who doesn't have enough stake in the conflict to want to take the time to edit the article/feud with a couple of "non-Zionists" who seem to be almost exclusively editing the article, I concur that the article has an anti-Israel bias and is slowly creeping towards the point of being near-useless as an encyclopedic piece. Kaylorcc ( talk) 02:56, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I've read everyone's comments here and I have to say that you are smart people with interesting things to say. However, my conclusion is that, like the jury swop in the Al Capone tax evasion trial it would perhaps be better if we all stop editing this article and hand it over to the people who only edit the Brazilian football articles. You know it makes sense. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:38, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
"UNRWA shelters are marked and their GPS locations are provided to the IDF..." [11]AND the UN "knows" this how?-- Tomtom9041 ( talk) 10:01, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
That is called speculation or assumption. You know ASSuMing = Making an Ass out of You and Me. Don't we expect better out of the UN?-- 98.111.139.133 ( talk) 10:33, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
UN = Useless Nations?-- 209.213.220.227 ( talk) 14:40, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
WanderSage ( talk) 23:24, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Despite extensive discussions that support the inclusion of casualty figures, from both sides, in the lead someone persists in removing them. I would like to refer these editors to the discussions here and here. Several editors felt that the human cost of the war is its single most important consequence and this should be mentioned upfront.
I do not intend to start another discussion here; merely to point out that it is inappropriate to remove this paragraph (which is well sourced and reflects an established talk page consensus) without either an edit summary or a note on the talk page. Moreover, I wish to bring this to broader attention: others who are following this article, please watch out for further ninja edits of this kind. thanks, Jacob2718 ( talk) 13:46, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Addition: This was removed by User:WanderSage, here. The corresponding edit summary reads, "Once again, superflorous information in the lead article. The final article is for the UN ceasefire. Please see discussion if you wish to reinstate"
I was unable to find a corresponding message on either the Lead Talk page or here. The UN ceasefire is not relevant to the casualty figures and this information is definitely not superfluous. I respect the fact that individual editors have differing viewpoints on this issue, but the reversal of a talk page consensus requires discussion. Posting this here to bring this to everyone's attention. Jacob2718 ( talk) 14:09, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Gareth Porter reports that Hamas offered to extend the ceasefire in mid-December and Israel rejected the offer. Porter cites "a U.S.-based source who has been briefed on the proposal.".
The proposal to renew the cease-fire was presented by a high-level Hamas delegation to Egyptian Minister of Intelligence Omar Suleiman at a meeting in Cairo Dec. 14. The delegation, said to have included Moussa Abu Marzouk, the second-ranking official in the Hamas political bureau in Damascus, told Suleiman that Hamas was prepared to stop all rocket attacks against Israel if the Israelis would open up the Gaza border crossings and pledge not to launch attacks in Gaza. Gareth Porter (2009-01-10). "Israel Rejected Hamas Cease-Fire Offer in December". antiwar.com. Retrieved 2009-01-10.
This casts even more doubt on the Israeli claim that its Gaza slaughter is a response to homemade rocket attacks, and lends support to those who contend that the current aggression against Gaza is simply the next phase in a 100-year-long campaign of genocide.
NonZionist (
talk)
16:28, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
"Hamas proposed in mid-December to return to the original Hamas-Israel cease-fire arrangement, according to a "U.S.-based source" who has been "briefed" on the proposal". Care to provide a known and clear source for the information? Who is that "briefed U.S. source" -
Joe the Plumber?
- The readiness of Hamas to return to the cease-fire conditionally in mid-December was confirmed by Dr. Robert Pastor, a professor at American University and senior adviser to the Carter Center, who met with Khaled Meshal, chairman of the Hamas political bureau in Damascus on Dec. 14, along with former President Jimmy Carter. Pastor told IPS that Meshal indicated Hamas was willing to go back to the cease-fire that had been in effect up to early November "if there was a sign that Israel would lift the siege on Gaza."
- -- Gareth Porter (2009-01-10). "Israel Rejected Hamas Cease-Fire Offer in December". antiwar.com. Retrieved 2009-01-10.
Gareth Porter's article, sourced to the Huffington Post. This is quite an important document for the background, and should eventually be harvested for the light it throws on it. Hamas, it is argued, actually accepted to renew the truce in mid-December. See Diskin's remark. Nishidani ( talk) 18:16, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Nishidani ( talk) 18:18, 10 January 2009 (UTC)'The interest of Hamas in a ceasefire agreement that would actually open the border crossings was acknowledged at a Dec. 21 Israeli cabinet meeting -- five days before the beginning of the Israeli military offensive -- by Yuval Diskin, the head of Israel's internal security agency, Shin Bet. "Make no mistake, Hamas is interested in maintaining the truce," Diskin was quoted by Y-net News agency as saying. Israel's rejection of the Hamas December proposal reflected its preference for maintaining Israel's primary leverage over Hamas and the Palestinian population of Gaza -- its ability to choke off food and goods required for the viability of its economy -- even at the cost of continued Palestinian rocket attacks.'
Usually Tiamut, I am a bit annoyed by your comments, not because they are pro-Palestinian but rather since they are well sourced, coherent and convincing. As a pro-Israeli commentator it compels to re-visit what I believe to be true in this conflict. Obviously you excel in research, method and logic. This time however, I must say I find your examples weak. The fact that others also use genocidal terminology doesn't add nothing to NonZionist's credibility. Rather, it diminishes theirs as well. Ascribing the State of Israel, as a whole, with hidden genocidal motives - i.e. that while claiming to try not to harm civilians Israel actually secretly plans to wipe the Palestinians from the face of the earth - falls very short, in my opinion, from trying to re-validate the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.-- Omrim ( talk) 02:29, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi Omrim. I've gathered from your comments on this page that you are Israeli, that you have sensibilities I appreciate, and that you've shown remarkable open-mindedness during what must be emotionally charged times. I should say I'm Christian and from India. In my opinion, the State of Israel does have a vested interest in making life as miserable as possible for the Palestinians, with a view to forcing them off Palestine. Israel was after all, founded on land stolen from the Palestinians. The very house you live in, Omrim, is probably built on land taken from some Palestinian family, who've likely been forced to live as refugees for more than 60 years - why, they might very well be suffering in Gaza right now! "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", that's all bullshit of course. But these are simple truths. I can't help wonder how you reconcile with these facts -- vvarkey ( talk) 07:26, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
'By politicide I mean a process that has, as its ultimate goal, the dissolution of the Palestinian people's existence as a legitimate social, political, and economic entity. This process may also but not necessarily include their partial or complete ethnic cleansing from the territory known as the Land of Israel. '