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Link "Project HOPE" mention to existing Wikipedia page: /info/en/?search=Project_HOPE Cridgway007 ( talk) 19:40, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
Given the findings here https://www.un.org/unispal/document/famine-review-committee-ipc-4jun24/ - this article needs to be completely revised and made significantly more balanced. At the moment, it's a very bad look for Wikipedia vis a vis Wikipedia:Five pillars MaskedSinger ( talk) 19:37, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
"a principal consultant for the Israeli Air Force"is a pretty textbook example of a source that lacks independence on the subject of whether said military is starving a population and committing war crimes. Since it doesn't state "unpaid consultant", we're going to have assume that there's at the very least the possibility of a direct financial conflict of interest involved here. Iskandar323 ( talk) 18:26, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
@ W. C. Minor: I would like you to discuss and look for better sources before adding those citations from Israeli government, institutes, and lobby groups back to the article. These are technically primary sources, and their reports are at risk of a conflict of interest on this matter. I also would appreciate it if you can avoid using acronyms in the citation template website/work/publisher entry, so readers can more easily identify the sources. -- Sameboat - 同舟 ( talk · contri.) 07:34, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved.
For background, many arguments here were similar to that of the recent move discussion at Gaza genocide, particularly on neutrality and wikivoice. The discussion here ran for 3 weeks and was well-attended. The main arguments were on commonname and neutrality. Some comments were not policy-based e.g. did not provide reliable sources, and the headcounts for those were down-weighted accordingly.
One of the main arguments in favour of moving was editors did not believe a famine was occuring, or it had not been proved. Others stated a famine is reflective of the wording used by reliable sources, and editors presented source analysis in support of this. I weighed heavily commonname analysis showing famine is currently more common than starvation. A key argument by editors in favour of moving, was that unqualified use of the word 'famine' in a title, when the existence of a famine is disputed, would violate our neutral point of view (NPOV) policy, and specifically that titles should be non-judgmentally descriptive. Editors opposed to the move countered that source analysis supported 'famine', and that the presence of a statement in a title does not imply the statement is factual.
Considering the lack of consensus to move, and that common name analysis shows the existing title currently has a stronger grounding in reliable sources, the title remains at Gaza Strip Famine, ( non-admin closure) Tom B ( talk) 10:08, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
Gaza Strip famine → Starvation of Palestinians during the Israel-Hamas war – No source is saying this is a famine. They say near-famine, starvation, or famine-like conditions. Contrary to some claims, there is not one source in this article that declares a famine. The FRC said there wasn't enough evidence to declare a famine, and other sources agreed. But pretty much all reliable sources say there is starvation. In every report, most of the population is in some form of starvation, and sources have gladly accepted this term. Additionally, starvation has been confirmed by pretty much all humanitarian orgs, the UN, ICC, and ICJ. Also, there is no common name. I want to see evidence there's a widely used name. The name doesn't have to be this, but it should revolve around starvation in Gaza. Personisinsterest ( talk) 01:23, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
an article about an impending event does not violate our policies if discussed in reliable sources, as this event has.CarmenEsparzaAmoux ( talk) 12:37, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
No source is saying this is a famine.is patently false. And the basis for the move request falls on that weight. nableezy - 13:43, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
generally falls below several other considerations. — xDanielx T/ C\ R 15:33, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
naturalness, recognizability and concision. The vast majority of readers will be looking for the article in relation to famine in the Gaza Strip, as our sources are almost all speaking about starvation, malnutrition, and food access in direct relation to famine. I also briefly caught up on secondary sources regarding this latest IPC report, and their analysis seems to differ very widely from how some editors are using it here. According to CNN:
The report projects that 96% of the population of Gaza – more than 2 million people – will face crisis, emergency, or catastrophic levels of food insecurity through at least the end of September. Nearly half a million are projected to face catastrophic levels, the most severe level on the IPC scale[30] and per Washington Post:
Palestinians throughout the Strip face a “plausible” risk of famine in the coming months, according to the latest Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC) analysis.[31] CarmenEsparzaAmoux ( talk) 19:56, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
The December I.P.C. analysis relied on publicly available data from international and local aid groups in Gaza that the group said met its methodology standards. But I.P.C. analysts said they lacked recent data on the prevalence of acute malnutrition. Getting that data is very difficult in a war zone and poses a burden on already overwhelmed health care workers, the group added. The organization’s criteria were originally designed to address weather-related famine, not wartime crises like the one in Gaza.and
It is unclear exactly what authority could declare a famine in Gaza. The I.P.C. group said the process typically involves the government in a country and its top U.N. official. Determining who that authority would be in Gaza was beyond the organization’s scope, it said.No informed person or source is suggesting that conditions in Gaza are reversing or are improved. The only people and sources making those claims, from what I have seen, are apologists for Israel's actions who have a clear interest in finding any reason, including a number of misleading ones, to deny or minimize the harm that the blockade is causing to Gazan civilians.
My comment from April
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Search engine | "gaza" "famine" | "gaza" "starvation" |
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Google scholar | 1,490 | 1,050 |
JSTOR | 109 | 61 |
Taylor and Francis | 92 [1] | 45 [2] |
VR (Please ping on reply) 01:49, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
References
In the introduction it says they said this in June. But the citation given is a different report in May. Abdullah Ali 4z5 ( talk) 12:55, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
New review from the IPC https://www.ipcinfo.org/fileadmin/user_upload/ipcinfo/docs/IPC_Famine_Review_Committee_Report_Gaza_June2024.pdf It says the available evidence does not indicate that Famine is currently occurring.
So the name change is good.
Saying this, this shows what happens when something as basic as WP:NOTNEWS is ignored. Articles are not meant to be live blog, daily journals of what's going on.
There is a distinct lack of WP:NPOV, neutrality and independence on this article. Are people in Gaza starving? Yes Is there a lack of food? Yes But that doesn't provide the license for it to become a free for all. And there is so much content on this article that has nothing to do with a supposed famine. Articles in this state, only diminish the standing and credbility of Wikipedia and this should be everyone's primary concern. MaskedSinger ( talk) 18:18, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
The present lede of the article is not up to date. I will quote the relevant parts:
"It is the "highest number of people facing catastrophic hunger" recorded on the IPC scale since its inception in 2004, and according to experts, may be the most intense man-made famine since the Second World War." In the updated report 343,000 people are facing catastrophic hunger; this is less than for example Ethiopia in 2011 ( https://www.ipcinfo.org/fileadmin/user_upload/ipcinfo/docs/IPC_Ethiopia_Acute_Food_Insecurity_2021MaySept_national.pdf). It is also not (as of yet) remotely comparable to the worst famines since WW2. However, this sentence is somehow still the end of the first paragraph, even 21 days after FRC/IPC responded to the FEWS-net assessment on June 4 and rejected the plausibility of current high mortality from famine (they claimed in their lead that they didn't have evidence to respond in either direction, but their actual text towards the end explicitly rejects the assumptions made by FEWS-net in concluding a high mortality rate. https://www.ipcinfo.org/fileadmin/user_upload/ipcinfo/docs/documents/IPC_Famine_Review_Committee_Report_FEWS_NET_Gaza_4June2024.pdf. Regardless of whether this is too technical to discuss in the article, should have been enough to remove this leading sentence, but now that the IPC/FRC report of June 25 is even more explicit, this sentence needs to be removed).
I will not quote the entire second paragraph, but it is entirely either quoting or quoting people who are quoting the March/April IPC report, which is now superceded. Its assumptions about a lack of increased aid were directly proven to be incorrect as they discuss themselves in the June report, and their March's projected hunger levels are also rejected directly by the June report. Thus, continuing to cite the report or people citing the report is problematic. It is also incorrect to say that the June 25 IPC/FRC report concluded "it was unknown whether famine thresholds had been passed in April." This would be fair based on the IPC June 4 report, but the June 25 report explicitly concludes that there is no evidence of famine (as in fact noted in the next part of the Wikipedia sentence). "No evidence of famine" is not science-speak for "we can't come to a conclusion," given that they in fact rated their confidence as medium to high (R1+), not low. Further, they explicitly discuss in the report how they evaluated mortality thresholds based on WFP phone surveys and found even all-cause mortality (which would vastly overestimate starvation-fatalities in this case) was 4x lower than what would characterize a famine. So, whether or not IPC/FRC report introduces qualifications on not being sure of their conclusion, it is simply improper to characterize the report as being unable to reach any conclusion at all.
Again, the next paragraph continues "Although there is evidence that Gazans, particularly in the northern governates of Gaza, are experiencing famine today, global leaders have not yet issued a formal declaration of famine," and cites an academic journal article. I do not need to explain that this is inconsistent with Wikipedia's style for an editor to insert their opinion with an academic citation in a style that implies they are right and world leaders are just being slow. In the lede in particular. Then, after again citing the June 4 IPC/FRC instead of June 25 (reasonable in the past but needs to be updated) we get "In May 2024, the head of the World Food Programme stated there was "full-blown famine" in northern Gaza. In June 2024, the director of humanitarian policy for Save the Children stated that famine-like conditions "may already be present" in southern Gaza." It is important to note that these people respectively are Cindy Mccain, a political appointee, and an NGO consultant-turned-administrator. Due to their positions, their statements should be given some degree of weight, but neither of them cited or implied that they were citing actual data beyond the March IPC/FRC report; their opinions did not necessarily ever belong in the lede and certainly do not now that the report is superceded.
The last paragraph includes " COGAT, the Israeli agency responsible for allowing aid into Gaza, has stated Israel was not putting limits into the amount of aid entering Gaza. COGAT's claim has been challenged by multiple entities, including the European Union, United Nations, Oxfam, and United Kingdom. Israel has accused Gaza's government of "aid theft"; however, US officials said they do not have evidence to support Israel's claims." It is notable that all other opinions of the lede are included without rebuttal despite their projections being refuted by the June IPC/FRC report (although their assumptions may have been reasonable at the time, they were clearly not the only reasonable assumptions). However, it is now well-acknowledged that looting has become a (the?) major impediment to aid distribution ( https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/19/world/middleeast/gaza-aid-chaos.html), and this should probably be acknowledged in the lede. Balance in deciding which claims are presented with and without rebuttal would improve the neutrality of this article. Certainly, COGAT's claim that there is no limit to aid should include the counterpoint. However, as written, it is the only rebuttaled point, and is entirely embedded in the accusation and then the rebuttal of COGAT's defense (which is not described beyond a citation, unlike the starvation claims), again impeding balance. Even though Wikipedia does not and should not create false equivalence between claims of one government and the full international community, it also should not entirely bury the arguments of one (substantial) side of a legal case in its rebuttals.
An editor should clean up the lede to better reflect the present reality. 72.78.207.135 ( talk) 23:20, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
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Overall this sentence is both unnecessary and incorrect in presenting the gravity of current starvation in the Gaza strip, especially in light of recent data.
The latest IPC/FRC report no longer reflects that Gaza has the highest number of people facing catastrophic hunger since its inception. The current report is 343,000, which has been exceeded (I did not check for more but my first check, the Ethiopia famine in 2011, for example, reports a larger number of people facing catastrophic hunger on the IPC scale). Thus, the first clause is incorrect.
The second clause is a "may be" claim from March, with the sources projecting imminently (i.e. March/April/May) that Gaza would be the most intense famine since WW2. Among many other "man-made" starvation events, we can consider the Northern Ethiopia famine ( /info/en/?search=Famine_in_northern_Ethiopia_(2020%E2%80%93present) where it's generally believed that starvation alone caused more than 2 deaths/10,000 person-days (i.e. most scholars consider it to have crossed the official famine mortality threshold), and overall has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands. Given that all-cause (with MUCH more conflict than starvation) mortality is estimated by WFP to be around 0.55 deaths/10,000 person days, and there are 27-50 recorded starvation deaths in Gaza, and that FRC/IPC thinks it is not plausible to extrapolate that there are a large number of missed deaths, the hyperbolic "may be" from a subject-matter scholar in March should no longer be relevant to the lead in the presence of relevant data as of June. This correction is especially important because it risks minimizing for readers the expected death tolls from historic famines.
https://www.ipcinfo.org/fileadmin/user_upload/ipcinfo/docs/IPC_Ethiopia_Acute_Food_Insecurity_2021MaySept_national.pdf https://www.ipcinfo.org/fileadmin/user_upload/ipcinfo/docs/documents/IPC_Famine_Review_Committee_Report_FEWS_NET_Gaza_4June2024.pdf https://www.ipcinfo.org/fileadmin/user_upload/ipcinfo/docs/IPC_Famine_Review_Committee_Report_Gaza_June2024.pdf /info/en/?search=Famine_in_northern_Ethiopia_(2020%E2%80%93present)
Scienceturtle1 ( talk) 02:15, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
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(in gray box in upper right corner of the lead) Change 495,000 facing near-famine hunger TO 343,000 facing catastrophic hunger.
Also, the reference should be changed, e.g. to the FRC/IPC report.
It is unclear whether it makes sense to keep a running tally in the "consequence box" of how many people are facing catastrophic hunger as it is not obvious what this means and is constantly changing. However, if it is kept, the FRC/IPC says 343,000, with 495,000 being the projection. Although the projection is reasonable to include, it should be noted that they disavowed their own projections for March/April in the same report; the projections are based on reasonable assumptions which may turn out wrong. The current estimate is 343,000. Further, the term is "catastrophic hunger"; the IPC/FRC criteria clearly state that famine is a group-level classification; a person is not "near-famine". The difference between phase 5 famine and phase 5 catastrophe is not a difference in the hunger level; "near-famine hunger" is not an appropriate phrase. The reference should also be changed as (1) I can no longer find that quote in the Al Jazeera blog linked although I do remember it at one point, and (2) the blog is a reference to an AP report of a leaked version of an IPC report. Citing the Al Jazeera blog is thus inappropriate. The report itself, and/or a reputable article on the report itself, which gives the relevant number, should be linked instead.
https://www.ipcinfo.org/ipc-country-analysis/details-map/en/c/1157065/?iso3=PSE Scienceturtle1 ( talk) 02:31, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
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Three related close edits: Change in the second paragraph of the lead 1. "According to the latest projections valid from mid-March through July of 2024," TO "In March, there were projections through July of 2024 that...".
2. Change "As of early-March 2024," TO "In early March, 2024,"
3. Remove "The State Department has said that a famine likely began in late March, [20] and USAID Administrator Samantha Power called the assessment that a famine is ongoing "credible" during a congressional hearing on 10 April.[21] A USAID report leaked to Devex on 26 April called famine in Gaza "inevitable" and said in its title that "changes [in Israeli policy] could reduce but not stop widespread civilian deaths."[22]"
(1) is because these are no longer the latest projections, and given that the latest IPC report explains why their assumptions did not end up holding, it should be quoted in the past tense (it is irrelevant here whether other organizations (FEWSnet) still believe famine occurred; the organization does not stand by their assumptions and does not think it's plausible to claim that their projections came true).
(2) The statement held in March when the survey was done; the IPC/FRC asserts with medium confidence that current malnutrition rates are SUBSTANTIALLY below the threshold for famine, so it should certainly not be implied that the second threshold for famine is still occurring.
(3) These are all projections without any clear data source and so likely relying on the March IPC report. The State Department claim is actually incorrect; the Guardian article link simply cites an anonymous state department source as having this belief. Despite the Guardian editor's headline choice, there is no evidence that this is or ever was the position of the US State Department. The other projections may have been relevant in March/April/May when there were only projections to use, even if they did not explain the reason behind their assessment. However, now that actual data rejects that famine thresholds are met (which is different from whether the term "famine" is appropriate in common usage), it is inappropriate to maintain incorrect famine threshold projections in the article lead when they aren't relevant to actual data or March data (the March IPC report is appropriate in this context).
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/29/famine-gaza-us-state-department-israel-food-aid Scienceturtle1 ( talk) 02:49, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
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A bit concerned by the JPost source included as the last sentence in the lede but wanted to see other's thoughts. The article currently states: An independent study by researchers from Columbia University found that "sufficient amounts of food are being supplied into Gaza", though, "it may not always be distributed to people due to other factors, such as war and Hamas control".
At first glance, this doesn't seem too far outside the line of mainstream Israeli arguments.
When you read through the cited article, though, these two researchers also espouse some pretty fringe ideas. I was particularly surprised to read: They note that it is “a myth that Israel is responsible for famine in Gaza.” They argue that the International Criminal Court and UN have joined Hamas in blaming Israel for a “famine that never was, hoping to stop the war [in Gaza].”
[33] This is way outside the norm of mainstream discourse and to me at least, puts the "independence" of these researchers into question.
Concerned this study is WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE. CarmenEsparzaAmoux ( talk) 19:26, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
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The cited June 25 report does not say this. I think the editor must be referring to the report's summary of its June 4 finding (discussed in the prior Wikipedia sentence) on page 2 of the report. None of the claims made in the June 25 report refer to April; the June 25 report conclusions start on May 1, where it describes emergency hunger levels with medium level evidence. If editor wishes to further emphasize that there may have been famine in April, they should continue to reference the June 4 report as in the prior sentence, and not attribute it to the June 25 report which does not reference these claims except in summarizing its past work (which it does not explicitly endorse).
Scienceturtle1 ( talk) 17:10, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
I believe our misunderstanding is that the June 4 paper isn't a draft report, it's just a different kind of report. The first three paragraphs of the June 25 report summary started by summarizing their first report (December), then second (March), then third (June 4). Given that they explicitly don't endorse projections of their March report about the situation in May, I don't think that summarizing their June 4 report is intended to add to its credibility; it stands on its own. Thus it is apparent (and there's no secondary sources that indicate otherwise), "it was unknown whether famine thresholds had been passed in April" is a finding from the June 4 report, not the June 25 report. To my understanding, how it's currently written is exactly equivalent to attributing the IPC March findings to the June 25 report just because it's summarized there (one paragraph before it summarizes the June 4 report). Scienceturtle1 ( talk) 00:03, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
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Link "Project HOPE" mention to existing Wikipedia page: /info/en/?search=Project_HOPE Cridgway007 ( talk) 19:40, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
Given the findings here https://www.un.org/unispal/document/famine-review-committee-ipc-4jun24/ - this article needs to be completely revised and made significantly more balanced. At the moment, it's a very bad look for Wikipedia vis a vis Wikipedia:Five pillars MaskedSinger ( talk) 19:37, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
"a principal consultant for the Israeli Air Force"is a pretty textbook example of a source that lacks independence on the subject of whether said military is starving a population and committing war crimes. Since it doesn't state "unpaid consultant", we're going to have assume that there's at the very least the possibility of a direct financial conflict of interest involved here. Iskandar323 ( talk) 18:26, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
@ W. C. Minor: I would like you to discuss and look for better sources before adding those citations from Israeli government, institutes, and lobby groups back to the article. These are technically primary sources, and their reports are at risk of a conflict of interest on this matter. I also would appreciate it if you can avoid using acronyms in the citation template website/work/publisher entry, so readers can more easily identify the sources. -- Sameboat - 同舟 ( talk · contri.) 07:34, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved.
For background, many arguments here were similar to that of the recent move discussion at Gaza genocide, particularly on neutrality and wikivoice. The discussion here ran for 3 weeks and was well-attended. The main arguments were on commonname and neutrality. Some comments were not policy-based e.g. did not provide reliable sources, and the headcounts for those were down-weighted accordingly.
One of the main arguments in favour of moving was editors did not believe a famine was occuring, or it had not been proved. Others stated a famine is reflective of the wording used by reliable sources, and editors presented source analysis in support of this. I weighed heavily commonname analysis showing famine is currently more common than starvation. A key argument by editors in favour of moving, was that unqualified use of the word 'famine' in a title, when the existence of a famine is disputed, would violate our neutral point of view (NPOV) policy, and specifically that titles should be non-judgmentally descriptive. Editors opposed to the move countered that source analysis supported 'famine', and that the presence of a statement in a title does not imply the statement is factual.
Considering the lack of consensus to move, and that common name analysis shows the existing title currently has a stronger grounding in reliable sources, the title remains at Gaza Strip Famine, ( non-admin closure) Tom B ( talk) 10:08, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
Gaza Strip famine → Starvation of Palestinians during the Israel-Hamas war – No source is saying this is a famine. They say near-famine, starvation, or famine-like conditions. Contrary to some claims, there is not one source in this article that declares a famine. The FRC said there wasn't enough evidence to declare a famine, and other sources agreed. But pretty much all reliable sources say there is starvation. In every report, most of the population is in some form of starvation, and sources have gladly accepted this term. Additionally, starvation has been confirmed by pretty much all humanitarian orgs, the UN, ICC, and ICJ. Also, there is no common name. I want to see evidence there's a widely used name. The name doesn't have to be this, but it should revolve around starvation in Gaza. Personisinsterest ( talk) 01:23, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
an article about an impending event does not violate our policies if discussed in reliable sources, as this event has.CarmenEsparzaAmoux ( talk) 12:37, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
No source is saying this is a famine.is patently false. And the basis for the move request falls on that weight. nableezy - 13:43, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
generally falls below several other considerations. — xDanielx T/ C\ R 15:33, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
naturalness, recognizability and concision. The vast majority of readers will be looking for the article in relation to famine in the Gaza Strip, as our sources are almost all speaking about starvation, malnutrition, and food access in direct relation to famine. I also briefly caught up on secondary sources regarding this latest IPC report, and their analysis seems to differ very widely from how some editors are using it here. According to CNN:
The report projects that 96% of the population of Gaza – more than 2 million people – will face crisis, emergency, or catastrophic levels of food insecurity through at least the end of September. Nearly half a million are projected to face catastrophic levels, the most severe level on the IPC scale[30] and per Washington Post:
Palestinians throughout the Strip face a “plausible” risk of famine in the coming months, according to the latest Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC) analysis.[31] CarmenEsparzaAmoux ( talk) 19:56, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
The December I.P.C. analysis relied on publicly available data from international and local aid groups in Gaza that the group said met its methodology standards. But I.P.C. analysts said they lacked recent data on the prevalence of acute malnutrition. Getting that data is very difficult in a war zone and poses a burden on already overwhelmed health care workers, the group added. The organization’s criteria were originally designed to address weather-related famine, not wartime crises like the one in Gaza.and
It is unclear exactly what authority could declare a famine in Gaza. The I.P.C. group said the process typically involves the government in a country and its top U.N. official. Determining who that authority would be in Gaza was beyond the organization’s scope, it said.No informed person or source is suggesting that conditions in Gaza are reversing or are improved. The only people and sources making those claims, from what I have seen, are apologists for Israel's actions who have a clear interest in finding any reason, including a number of misleading ones, to deny or minimize the harm that the blockade is causing to Gazan civilians.
My comment from April
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Search engine | "gaza" "famine" | "gaza" "starvation" |
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Google scholar | 1,490 | 1,050 |
JSTOR | 109 | 61 |
Taylor and Francis | 92 [1] | 45 [2] |
VR (Please ping on reply) 01:49, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
References
In the introduction it says they said this in June. But the citation given is a different report in May. Abdullah Ali 4z5 ( talk) 12:55, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
New review from the IPC https://www.ipcinfo.org/fileadmin/user_upload/ipcinfo/docs/IPC_Famine_Review_Committee_Report_Gaza_June2024.pdf It says the available evidence does not indicate that Famine is currently occurring.
So the name change is good.
Saying this, this shows what happens when something as basic as WP:NOTNEWS is ignored. Articles are not meant to be live blog, daily journals of what's going on.
There is a distinct lack of WP:NPOV, neutrality and independence on this article. Are people in Gaza starving? Yes Is there a lack of food? Yes But that doesn't provide the license for it to become a free for all. And there is so much content on this article that has nothing to do with a supposed famine. Articles in this state, only diminish the standing and credbility of Wikipedia and this should be everyone's primary concern. MaskedSinger ( talk) 18:18, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
The present lede of the article is not up to date. I will quote the relevant parts:
"It is the "highest number of people facing catastrophic hunger" recorded on the IPC scale since its inception in 2004, and according to experts, may be the most intense man-made famine since the Second World War." In the updated report 343,000 people are facing catastrophic hunger; this is less than for example Ethiopia in 2011 ( https://www.ipcinfo.org/fileadmin/user_upload/ipcinfo/docs/IPC_Ethiopia_Acute_Food_Insecurity_2021MaySept_national.pdf). It is also not (as of yet) remotely comparable to the worst famines since WW2. However, this sentence is somehow still the end of the first paragraph, even 21 days after FRC/IPC responded to the FEWS-net assessment on June 4 and rejected the plausibility of current high mortality from famine (they claimed in their lead that they didn't have evidence to respond in either direction, but their actual text towards the end explicitly rejects the assumptions made by FEWS-net in concluding a high mortality rate. https://www.ipcinfo.org/fileadmin/user_upload/ipcinfo/docs/documents/IPC_Famine_Review_Committee_Report_FEWS_NET_Gaza_4June2024.pdf. Regardless of whether this is too technical to discuss in the article, should have been enough to remove this leading sentence, but now that the IPC/FRC report of June 25 is even more explicit, this sentence needs to be removed).
I will not quote the entire second paragraph, but it is entirely either quoting or quoting people who are quoting the March/April IPC report, which is now superceded. Its assumptions about a lack of increased aid were directly proven to be incorrect as they discuss themselves in the June report, and their March's projected hunger levels are also rejected directly by the June report. Thus, continuing to cite the report or people citing the report is problematic. It is also incorrect to say that the June 25 IPC/FRC report concluded "it was unknown whether famine thresholds had been passed in April." This would be fair based on the IPC June 4 report, but the June 25 report explicitly concludes that there is no evidence of famine (as in fact noted in the next part of the Wikipedia sentence). "No evidence of famine" is not science-speak for "we can't come to a conclusion," given that they in fact rated their confidence as medium to high (R1+), not low. Further, they explicitly discuss in the report how they evaluated mortality thresholds based on WFP phone surveys and found even all-cause mortality (which would vastly overestimate starvation-fatalities in this case) was 4x lower than what would characterize a famine. So, whether or not IPC/FRC report introduces qualifications on not being sure of their conclusion, it is simply improper to characterize the report as being unable to reach any conclusion at all.
Again, the next paragraph continues "Although there is evidence that Gazans, particularly in the northern governates of Gaza, are experiencing famine today, global leaders have not yet issued a formal declaration of famine," and cites an academic journal article. I do not need to explain that this is inconsistent with Wikipedia's style for an editor to insert their opinion with an academic citation in a style that implies they are right and world leaders are just being slow. In the lede in particular. Then, after again citing the June 4 IPC/FRC instead of June 25 (reasonable in the past but needs to be updated) we get "In May 2024, the head of the World Food Programme stated there was "full-blown famine" in northern Gaza. In June 2024, the director of humanitarian policy for Save the Children stated that famine-like conditions "may already be present" in southern Gaza." It is important to note that these people respectively are Cindy Mccain, a political appointee, and an NGO consultant-turned-administrator. Due to their positions, their statements should be given some degree of weight, but neither of them cited or implied that they were citing actual data beyond the March IPC/FRC report; their opinions did not necessarily ever belong in the lede and certainly do not now that the report is superceded.
The last paragraph includes " COGAT, the Israeli agency responsible for allowing aid into Gaza, has stated Israel was not putting limits into the amount of aid entering Gaza. COGAT's claim has been challenged by multiple entities, including the European Union, United Nations, Oxfam, and United Kingdom. Israel has accused Gaza's government of "aid theft"; however, US officials said they do not have evidence to support Israel's claims." It is notable that all other opinions of the lede are included without rebuttal despite their projections being refuted by the June IPC/FRC report (although their assumptions may have been reasonable at the time, they were clearly not the only reasonable assumptions). However, it is now well-acknowledged that looting has become a (the?) major impediment to aid distribution ( https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/19/world/middleeast/gaza-aid-chaos.html), and this should probably be acknowledged in the lede. Balance in deciding which claims are presented with and without rebuttal would improve the neutrality of this article. Certainly, COGAT's claim that there is no limit to aid should include the counterpoint. However, as written, it is the only rebuttaled point, and is entirely embedded in the accusation and then the rebuttal of COGAT's defense (which is not described beyond a citation, unlike the starvation claims), again impeding balance. Even though Wikipedia does not and should not create false equivalence between claims of one government and the full international community, it also should not entirely bury the arguments of one (substantial) side of a legal case in its rebuttals.
An editor should clean up the lede to better reflect the present reality. 72.78.207.135 ( talk) 23:20, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
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Overall this sentence is both unnecessary and incorrect in presenting the gravity of current starvation in the Gaza strip, especially in light of recent data.
The latest IPC/FRC report no longer reflects that Gaza has the highest number of people facing catastrophic hunger since its inception. The current report is 343,000, which has been exceeded (I did not check for more but my first check, the Ethiopia famine in 2011, for example, reports a larger number of people facing catastrophic hunger on the IPC scale). Thus, the first clause is incorrect.
The second clause is a "may be" claim from March, with the sources projecting imminently (i.e. March/April/May) that Gaza would be the most intense famine since WW2. Among many other "man-made" starvation events, we can consider the Northern Ethiopia famine ( /info/en/?search=Famine_in_northern_Ethiopia_(2020%E2%80%93present) where it's generally believed that starvation alone caused more than 2 deaths/10,000 person-days (i.e. most scholars consider it to have crossed the official famine mortality threshold), and overall has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands. Given that all-cause (with MUCH more conflict than starvation) mortality is estimated by WFP to be around 0.55 deaths/10,000 person days, and there are 27-50 recorded starvation deaths in Gaza, and that FRC/IPC thinks it is not plausible to extrapolate that there are a large number of missed deaths, the hyperbolic "may be" from a subject-matter scholar in March should no longer be relevant to the lead in the presence of relevant data as of June. This correction is especially important because it risks minimizing for readers the expected death tolls from historic famines.
https://www.ipcinfo.org/fileadmin/user_upload/ipcinfo/docs/IPC_Ethiopia_Acute_Food_Insecurity_2021MaySept_national.pdf https://www.ipcinfo.org/fileadmin/user_upload/ipcinfo/docs/documents/IPC_Famine_Review_Committee_Report_FEWS_NET_Gaza_4June2024.pdf https://www.ipcinfo.org/fileadmin/user_upload/ipcinfo/docs/IPC_Famine_Review_Committee_Report_Gaza_June2024.pdf /info/en/?search=Famine_in_northern_Ethiopia_(2020%E2%80%93present)
Scienceturtle1 ( talk) 02:15, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
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(in gray box in upper right corner of the lead) Change 495,000 facing near-famine hunger TO 343,000 facing catastrophic hunger.
Also, the reference should be changed, e.g. to the FRC/IPC report.
It is unclear whether it makes sense to keep a running tally in the "consequence box" of how many people are facing catastrophic hunger as it is not obvious what this means and is constantly changing. However, if it is kept, the FRC/IPC says 343,000, with 495,000 being the projection. Although the projection is reasonable to include, it should be noted that they disavowed their own projections for March/April in the same report; the projections are based on reasonable assumptions which may turn out wrong. The current estimate is 343,000. Further, the term is "catastrophic hunger"; the IPC/FRC criteria clearly state that famine is a group-level classification; a person is not "near-famine". The difference between phase 5 famine and phase 5 catastrophe is not a difference in the hunger level; "near-famine hunger" is not an appropriate phrase. The reference should also be changed as (1) I can no longer find that quote in the Al Jazeera blog linked although I do remember it at one point, and (2) the blog is a reference to an AP report of a leaked version of an IPC report. Citing the Al Jazeera blog is thus inappropriate. The report itself, and/or a reputable article on the report itself, which gives the relevant number, should be linked instead.
https://www.ipcinfo.org/ipc-country-analysis/details-map/en/c/1157065/?iso3=PSE Scienceturtle1 ( talk) 02:31, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
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Three related close edits: Change in the second paragraph of the lead 1. "According to the latest projections valid from mid-March through July of 2024," TO "In March, there were projections through July of 2024 that...".
2. Change "As of early-March 2024," TO "In early March, 2024,"
3. Remove "The State Department has said that a famine likely began in late March, [20] and USAID Administrator Samantha Power called the assessment that a famine is ongoing "credible" during a congressional hearing on 10 April.[21] A USAID report leaked to Devex on 26 April called famine in Gaza "inevitable" and said in its title that "changes [in Israeli policy] could reduce but not stop widespread civilian deaths."[22]"
(1) is because these are no longer the latest projections, and given that the latest IPC report explains why their assumptions did not end up holding, it should be quoted in the past tense (it is irrelevant here whether other organizations (FEWSnet) still believe famine occurred; the organization does not stand by their assumptions and does not think it's plausible to claim that their projections came true).
(2) The statement held in March when the survey was done; the IPC/FRC asserts with medium confidence that current malnutrition rates are SUBSTANTIALLY below the threshold for famine, so it should certainly not be implied that the second threshold for famine is still occurring.
(3) These are all projections without any clear data source and so likely relying on the March IPC report. The State Department claim is actually incorrect; the Guardian article link simply cites an anonymous state department source as having this belief. Despite the Guardian editor's headline choice, there is no evidence that this is or ever was the position of the US State Department. The other projections may have been relevant in March/April/May when there were only projections to use, even if they did not explain the reason behind their assessment. However, now that actual data rejects that famine thresholds are met (which is different from whether the term "famine" is appropriate in common usage), it is inappropriate to maintain incorrect famine threshold projections in the article lead when they aren't relevant to actual data or March data (the March IPC report is appropriate in this context).
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/29/famine-gaza-us-state-department-israel-food-aid Scienceturtle1 ( talk) 02:49, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
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A bit concerned by the JPost source included as the last sentence in the lede but wanted to see other's thoughts. The article currently states: An independent study by researchers from Columbia University found that "sufficient amounts of food are being supplied into Gaza", though, "it may not always be distributed to people due to other factors, such as war and Hamas control".
At first glance, this doesn't seem too far outside the line of mainstream Israeli arguments.
When you read through the cited article, though, these two researchers also espouse some pretty fringe ideas. I was particularly surprised to read: They note that it is “a myth that Israel is responsible for famine in Gaza.” They argue that the International Criminal Court and UN have joined Hamas in blaming Israel for a “famine that never was, hoping to stop the war [in Gaza].”
[33] This is way outside the norm of mainstream discourse and to me at least, puts the "independence" of these researchers into question.
Concerned this study is WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE. CarmenEsparzaAmoux ( talk) 19:26, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
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The cited June 25 report does not say this. I think the editor must be referring to the report's summary of its June 4 finding (discussed in the prior Wikipedia sentence) on page 2 of the report. None of the claims made in the June 25 report refer to April; the June 25 report conclusions start on May 1, where it describes emergency hunger levels with medium level evidence. If editor wishes to further emphasize that there may have been famine in April, they should continue to reference the June 4 report as in the prior sentence, and not attribute it to the June 25 report which does not reference these claims except in summarizing its past work (which it does not explicitly endorse).
Scienceturtle1 ( talk) 17:10, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
I believe our misunderstanding is that the June 4 paper isn't a draft report, it's just a different kind of report. The first three paragraphs of the June 25 report summary started by summarizing their first report (December), then second (March), then third (June 4). Given that they explicitly don't endorse projections of their March report about the situation in May, I don't think that summarizing their June 4 report is intended to add to its credibility; it stands on its own. Thus it is apparent (and there's no secondary sources that indicate otherwise), "it was unknown whether famine thresholds had been passed in April" is a finding from the June 4 report, not the June 25 report. To my understanding, how it's currently written is exactly equivalent to attributing the IPC March findings to the June 25 report just because it's summarized there (one paragraph before it summarizes the June 4 report). Scienceturtle1 ( talk) 00:03, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
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