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The new map is not better. The left bank of the Adour river ( hence in Labourd and Lower Navarre ) is Gascon-speaking with the exception of Urcuit and Mouguerre. The Gascon language is also spoken in the easternmost "quartiers" of the very same Toulouse. See this map by André Borell : http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/6538/toulousegasconlanguedocienpv5.jpg
As for the language of Agen, linguists see it as a mix between Gascon and more central Romance languages. The Bearnese village of Esquiule ( Eskiula in Basque, Esquiula in Gascon ) and parts of the village of Géronce ( Jeruntze in Basque ) are Basque-speaking whereas the Souletine villages of Osserain-Rivareyte, Gestas, Montory are Gascon-speaking.
Consequently, the previous map was better because simpler : between the Garonne river, the Pyrenees and the Atlantic. If we begin to make detailed maps, that's be hell.
This Etymology of Bayonne (Bjornhamn) is controversial. According to french wiki-article on Bayonne, is would be derived from Bai Ona,-- Sugaar 23:24, 5 January 2007 (UTC) "the hill of the river", or "good river". Please cite your sources.
Etymology of Hossegor is also disputed. According to french wiki-article on Hossegor, it could come from " Hosse" and "gor" (deep ditch). Please cite reference.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by I-do-do-you? ( talk • contribs) 20:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC).
About these names Hossegor and Bayonne. Before the invasions, Lapourdan was a Roman city controlling the coastal road to Spain. The Vikings stayed there from 840 to 982. In between, the city became a port dealing with Northern Europe and had a new name, Bayonne. Some suppose that Basque shepherds came down from the mountain, decided to become sailors, to create a port and to name it Ibaiona. The only problem with this hypothesis is that there is no historical record of such an event. The only historical records are about the Vikings. Björn was the chief who conquered Gascony. Bayonne is a translation of his name. An area called Beyris in Bayonne could be an evolution of Bierhus. Bier was the Frankish name of Björn. Not far from there (7 km), Biarritz, anc. Bearis, is another name with the same origin. Bier and Björn mean Bear. Above Bordeaux, there is a port called Bayon-s/Gironde. Specialists say it’s a Germanic name coming from a guy called Baio. (Michel Morvan, “Noms de lieux du Pays Basque et de Gascogne” Bonneton, 2004, p179). Strangely enough he doesn’t consider this hypothesis for Bayonne… I think there is a lot of ideology in the choice of rejecting the Scandinavian hypothesis. About Hossegor, anc. Ossegor, I suggest Asgeir. The reason is simple. - Here was the mouth of Adour River during the invasions. - Asgeir had taken Saintes in 845 and Bordeaux in 848. He was active in the area. - The neighboring village is called Angresse. Angreville in Normandy, refers to Asgeirvilla. Angresse is the local way of writing Asgeirhus, the house of Asgeir. - Finally, the “H” of Hossegor appeared only lately. It had been added to fit with the hypothesis “Fosse, hosse”. Never anybody read anywhere Fossegor which should have existed if the “H” was original. Toponymy in Gascony is a big joke. People are not interested in linguistics and history, only in mythology. -- Ossegor ( talk) 19:02, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
The reference to Bayonne and Biarritz as among the most important towns of Gascony would probably be strongly rejected by the inhabitants of these cities. Though Gascon-Occitanian nationalism/regionalism (a very weak current anyhow) does have some claim to the city of Bayonne (Baiona) and a small part of the inhabitants of that city do speak Gascon, that's not the case of Biarritz (Miarritze). Anyhow, both cities belong to the Basque historical region of Labourd (Lapurdi) and Basque language is much more extended (French is surely widely majoritarian nowadays). The claim of a separate Basque department (apart of Bearne) is overwhelmingly majoritarian among local politicans, no matter if they are Basque nationalists or they work inside whole-France parties. So, unless you consider the French Basque Country (Ipar Euskal Herria) as part of Gascony, which can have some historical reasons though, these Basque cities shouldn't be numbered among Gascon ones.
-- Sugaar 21:58, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The author of the article states quite happily that the lords of Gascony were Basque while their subjects weren't, speaking a form of Romance that would evolve in Gascon.
Nevertheless, there's no evidence to sustain that and, in fact, it seems quite ilogical, however you look at it. Though the linguistic reality of VI-VIII centuries Wasconia (Gascony) is not known, it's very likely that Basque language and identity was much more extended northwards and eastwards than today. Most likely Basque was still spoken in most Gascony, along with a corrupted form of Latin that eventually gave birth to Gascon. At least three facts support this working hypothesis:
- Basque names found in funerary slabs of late Roman period, in what was then known as Novempopulania (Aquitania Tertia, Gascony), what seems to relate ancient Aquitanii with their neighbours south of the Pyrenees. Toponimy and genetic pool also confirm it.
- The very fact that the region is known as Vasconia or Wasconia: the land of the Vascones (Basque people). Though this name of Vascones is assigned originally (Estrabo) to a single tribe of what is now Navarre and northern Aragon, in the Middle Ages the name acquired an ethnical meaning, becoming the Latin/Romance synonim of Basque national name Euskaldunak: those who speak Basque.
- The fact that during personal union of the Duchies of Vasconia (Gascony) and Aquitaine (north and east of the Garonne) in the VIII century both territories remained separated, evidencing both historical and ethnic differences.
Additionally, Gascon is also, with Castilian (Spanish) and Aragonese, one of the three romance languages that show a very strong Basque influx in their evolution.
So I think this part of the article also needs to be reviewed to conform to Wikipedia standards of objectivity.
-- Sugaar 21:58, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Definitively Lobo was not the Medieval Castilian form of this extint name, but actually it was Lope (frome where the common surname López: son of Lope). Lobo does mean wolf in modern Spanish but it has never been used as name in that form.
-- Sugaar 21:58, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Great article. However, could the person who wrote it ad a bit more detail, or at least more sub-articles, by writing up the red links? Fergananim
I'm not sure about this, but on a Travel Channel show I heard that the residents of Gascony are a mix of French and Spanish. They also said that the people of Gascony are under the rule of Spain and France, which does not make sense because it's part of France. Can someone clear this up?
Amazing that there's no mention of the English connection? It was, after all, the trigger for the longest war in history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.221.82.186 ( talk) 08:21, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi there, quite surprised about the revert, I thought the problem was rather the lack of a primary source. This is a pretty safe source (if this can be said of any record of that time), a classic when talking about Vasconia, Aquitania and the Franks and a safe statement (geographically accurate). I'm not elaborating my own these. Anyway, where is that rule set out? Regards Iñaki LL ( talk) 22:14, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
I am not familiar with editing articles and I don't want to accidentally delete anything important, so I simply undid a recent change to the first sentence of the article that said Gascony is today known as the Pays Basque. This clearly contradicts most of the article and is not, to my knowledge, how the term is generally used. I would suggest changing the sentence further to include something like "Gascony is a historical, cultural and linguistic region in southwestern France roughly located south and west of the Garonne River."
Regardless, the equation of Gascony with Pays Basque is clearly wrong, despite the etymological relationship. First, the area today known as the Pays Basque is a fairly small area compared to the area described as Gascony in the rest of the article. Second, at least in the past several hundred years, the Basque and Gascon peoples have spoken very different languages and have occupied different (if possibly overlapping) areas. The departments most closely associated with Gascony (Gers, Landes, etc.) are not today considered part of the Basque Country. Finally, even the map indicating Gascony in green at the top of the page excludes the area generally known as the Basque Country.
At any rate, judging by the content of the rest of the article and the nature of the comments on the talk page, people with far more knowledge on the topic than me have worked on this article. So this first sentence would appear to have simply been an oversight since it clearly contradicts much of what is said elsewhere in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pooley49 ( talk • contribs) 21:20, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
Could we see Gascony on a map of all of France? CessnaMan1989 ( talk) 14:01, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
Cyrano de Bergerac was apparently Parisian, not a Gascon. See the article about him. Humphrey Tribble ( talk) 06:39, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
Also, it may be a stretch to say that Bergerac is in Gascony. It was in the Dordogne sub prefecture of Guyenne Humphrey Tribble ( talk) 06:44, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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The new map is not better. The left bank of the Adour river ( hence in Labourd and Lower Navarre ) is Gascon-speaking with the exception of Urcuit and Mouguerre. The Gascon language is also spoken in the easternmost "quartiers" of the very same Toulouse. See this map by André Borell : http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/6538/toulousegasconlanguedocienpv5.jpg
As for the language of Agen, linguists see it as a mix between Gascon and more central Romance languages. The Bearnese village of Esquiule ( Eskiula in Basque, Esquiula in Gascon ) and parts of the village of Géronce ( Jeruntze in Basque ) are Basque-speaking whereas the Souletine villages of Osserain-Rivareyte, Gestas, Montory are Gascon-speaking.
Consequently, the previous map was better because simpler : between the Garonne river, the Pyrenees and the Atlantic. If we begin to make detailed maps, that's be hell.
This Etymology of Bayonne (Bjornhamn) is controversial. According to french wiki-article on Bayonne, is would be derived from Bai Ona,-- Sugaar 23:24, 5 January 2007 (UTC) "the hill of the river", or "good river". Please cite your sources.
Etymology of Hossegor is also disputed. According to french wiki-article on Hossegor, it could come from " Hosse" and "gor" (deep ditch). Please cite reference.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by I-do-do-you? ( talk • contribs) 20:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC).
About these names Hossegor and Bayonne. Before the invasions, Lapourdan was a Roman city controlling the coastal road to Spain. The Vikings stayed there from 840 to 982. In between, the city became a port dealing with Northern Europe and had a new name, Bayonne. Some suppose that Basque shepherds came down from the mountain, decided to become sailors, to create a port and to name it Ibaiona. The only problem with this hypothesis is that there is no historical record of such an event. The only historical records are about the Vikings. Björn was the chief who conquered Gascony. Bayonne is a translation of his name. An area called Beyris in Bayonne could be an evolution of Bierhus. Bier was the Frankish name of Björn. Not far from there (7 km), Biarritz, anc. Bearis, is another name with the same origin. Bier and Björn mean Bear. Above Bordeaux, there is a port called Bayon-s/Gironde. Specialists say it’s a Germanic name coming from a guy called Baio. (Michel Morvan, “Noms de lieux du Pays Basque et de Gascogne” Bonneton, 2004, p179). Strangely enough he doesn’t consider this hypothesis for Bayonne… I think there is a lot of ideology in the choice of rejecting the Scandinavian hypothesis. About Hossegor, anc. Ossegor, I suggest Asgeir. The reason is simple. - Here was the mouth of Adour River during the invasions. - Asgeir had taken Saintes in 845 and Bordeaux in 848. He was active in the area. - The neighboring village is called Angresse. Angreville in Normandy, refers to Asgeirvilla. Angresse is the local way of writing Asgeirhus, the house of Asgeir. - Finally, the “H” of Hossegor appeared only lately. It had been added to fit with the hypothesis “Fosse, hosse”. Never anybody read anywhere Fossegor which should have existed if the “H” was original. Toponymy in Gascony is a big joke. People are not interested in linguistics and history, only in mythology. -- Ossegor ( talk) 19:02, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
The reference to Bayonne and Biarritz as among the most important towns of Gascony would probably be strongly rejected by the inhabitants of these cities. Though Gascon-Occitanian nationalism/regionalism (a very weak current anyhow) does have some claim to the city of Bayonne (Baiona) and a small part of the inhabitants of that city do speak Gascon, that's not the case of Biarritz (Miarritze). Anyhow, both cities belong to the Basque historical region of Labourd (Lapurdi) and Basque language is much more extended (French is surely widely majoritarian nowadays). The claim of a separate Basque department (apart of Bearne) is overwhelmingly majoritarian among local politicans, no matter if they are Basque nationalists or they work inside whole-France parties. So, unless you consider the French Basque Country (Ipar Euskal Herria) as part of Gascony, which can have some historical reasons though, these Basque cities shouldn't be numbered among Gascon ones.
-- Sugaar 21:58, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The author of the article states quite happily that the lords of Gascony were Basque while their subjects weren't, speaking a form of Romance that would evolve in Gascon.
Nevertheless, there's no evidence to sustain that and, in fact, it seems quite ilogical, however you look at it. Though the linguistic reality of VI-VIII centuries Wasconia (Gascony) is not known, it's very likely that Basque language and identity was much more extended northwards and eastwards than today. Most likely Basque was still spoken in most Gascony, along with a corrupted form of Latin that eventually gave birth to Gascon. At least three facts support this working hypothesis:
- Basque names found in funerary slabs of late Roman period, in what was then known as Novempopulania (Aquitania Tertia, Gascony), what seems to relate ancient Aquitanii with their neighbours south of the Pyrenees. Toponimy and genetic pool also confirm it.
- The very fact that the region is known as Vasconia or Wasconia: the land of the Vascones (Basque people). Though this name of Vascones is assigned originally (Estrabo) to a single tribe of what is now Navarre and northern Aragon, in the Middle Ages the name acquired an ethnical meaning, becoming the Latin/Romance synonim of Basque national name Euskaldunak: those who speak Basque.
- The fact that during personal union of the Duchies of Vasconia (Gascony) and Aquitaine (north and east of the Garonne) in the VIII century both territories remained separated, evidencing both historical and ethnic differences.
Additionally, Gascon is also, with Castilian (Spanish) and Aragonese, one of the three romance languages that show a very strong Basque influx in their evolution.
So I think this part of the article also needs to be reviewed to conform to Wikipedia standards of objectivity.
-- Sugaar 21:58, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Definitively Lobo was not the Medieval Castilian form of this extint name, but actually it was Lope (frome where the common surname López: son of Lope). Lobo does mean wolf in modern Spanish but it has never been used as name in that form.
-- Sugaar 21:58, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Great article. However, could the person who wrote it ad a bit more detail, or at least more sub-articles, by writing up the red links? Fergananim
I'm not sure about this, but on a Travel Channel show I heard that the residents of Gascony are a mix of French and Spanish. They also said that the people of Gascony are under the rule of Spain and France, which does not make sense because it's part of France. Can someone clear this up?
Amazing that there's no mention of the English connection? It was, after all, the trigger for the longest war in history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.221.82.186 ( talk) 08:21, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi there, quite surprised about the revert, I thought the problem was rather the lack of a primary source. This is a pretty safe source (if this can be said of any record of that time), a classic when talking about Vasconia, Aquitania and the Franks and a safe statement (geographically accurate). I'm not elaborating my own these. Anyway, where is that rule set out? Regards Iñaki LL ( talk) 22:14, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
I am not familiar with editing articles and I don't want to accidentally delete anything important, so I simply undid a recent change to the first sentence of the article that said Gascony is today known as the Pays Basque. This clearly contradicts most of the article and is not, to my knowledge, how the term is generally used. I would suggest changing the sentence further to include something like "Gascony is a historical, cultural and linguistic region in southwestern France roughly located south and west of the Garonne River."
Regardless, the equation of Gascony with Pays Basque is clearly wrong, despite the etymological relationship. First, the area today known as the Pays Basque is a fairly small area compared to the area described as Gascony in the rest of the article. Second, at least in the past several hundred years, the Basque and Gascon peoples have spoken very different languages and have occupied different (if possibly overlapping) areas. The departments most closely associated with Gascony (Gers, Landes, etc.) are not today considered part of the Basque Country. Finally, even the map indicating Gascony in green at the top of the page excludes the area generally known as the Basque Country.
At any rate, judging by the content of the rest of the article and the nature of the comments on the talk page, people with far more knowledge on the topic than me have worked on this article. So this first sentence would appear to have simply been an oversight since it clearly contradicts much of what is said elsewhere in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pooley49 ( talk • contribs) 21:20, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
Could we see Gascony on a map of all of France? CessnaMan1989 ( talk) 14:01, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
Cyrano de Bergerac was apparently Parisian, not a Gascon. See the article about him. Humphrey Tribble ( talk) 06:39, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
Also, it may be a stretch to say that Bergerac is in Gascony. It was in the Dordogne sub prefecture of Guyenne Humphrey Tribble ( talk) 06:44, 15 February 2022 (UTC)