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The contents of the Gang of Barbarians page were merged into Killing of Ilan Halimi on 1 September 2019. For the contribution history and old versions of the merged article please see its history. |
Material from Ilan Halimi was split to Gang of Barbarians on 08:48, 5 June 2013 from this version. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted so long as the latter page exists. Please leave this template in place to link the article histories and preserve this attribution. The former page's talk page can be accessed at Talk:Ilan Halimi. |
Article says presumption of innocence applies, but under French law, it is instead presumption of guilt. ThuranX 18:10, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Is that black humour? Of course presumption of innocence is the rule in France like in all countries in the world.11:15, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
see : "But the Paris public prosecutor, Jean-Claude Marin, told Parisian Jewish radio on Thursday that "no element of the current investigation could link this murder to an anti-Semitic declaration or action." The umbrella group of French Jewish secular organizations, CRIF, issued a statement Friday calling on the Jewish community "to keep calm, cautious and wait for developments in the investigation." see
[1].
Moez
14:49, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
[2]. The link between Islam and this sordid affair is only superficial. It is being used by some politician and activists in France for a political agenda, as the presidential elections are close in France. de Villier for instance is communicating using the "Islam menace to Europe" credo, which has a certain impact on some xenophobic people. He is basically conveting suffrage from the Front national voters. Neither the french prime minister, Sarkozy, nor le ministre des sceaux (justice) nor the prosecutor directly in touch with the file have implied Islam. Indeed, the only direct link to Islam is the testimony of the uncle to a newspaper who said he heard Koran recitation over the phone when negotiating the ransom. Ilan's parent have not made this testimony, nor did the police. the link with Islam is therefore tenuous and should not be presented in the introduction. The sentence "already marked by intense public controversy about the role of Muslim immigrants in its society" is just giving a background the way it is written now and is clearly a POV. Moez 01:49, 28 February 2006 (UTC).
If the religion of the murderers (Islam) is not relevant, then surely the religion of the victim (Jewish) is not relevant either. Perhaps all religious references or anything that could be interpreted as providing ethnic dimension to this affair should be removed from this article for the function of political correctness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.80.32.8 ( talk) 21:01, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
If this was a murder committed by Christians it would not be an issue to mention their religion as a motive. However since they were Muslim it has been deemed "offensive" and "unmentionable." Give me a break. There are multiple mentions of religion being a motive in this crime (i.e. comments made about passages of the Qur'an being mentioned while the victim was being tortured). Theseus1776 ( talk) 21:44, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
[3]. Now this idea is really farfetched! The simplest explanation is that Ilan's family was not able to pay the exhorbitant lump money, more than half a million dollar. They simply are of modest origin. The antisemitism comes here : the gang said that, according to them, all the jews are wealthy and therefore they had money. This stupid stereotype led them to kidnap a jew, thinking he was rich. Moreover, the police was assisting them during the contact with the kidnapper, and their goal was to catch the kidnapper. All this does not make this allegation serious. Moez 01:59, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
[4] : most on the info removed can be found here, for exemple :
[5]. The family lawer noted the cynicism of Fofana.
I can't find the article(s) where I read the rest. I'll search my browser history tonignt.
Edit (couldn't wait): for the computer guy "moko" beeing the mastermind as well as Zigo beeing the torturer :
[6]
You really should read this : [7]. Unbelievable! Moez talk 12:49, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Please see this article, where we learn that Fofana is eating a plate of fish in the compagny of his girlfriend, both wearing expensive sport uniform and visibly very decontracted. (in French) link
How can one of the criminals deny having committed the crime and "show no remorse?" Wouldn't he have to admit to the crime before not showing remorse became a factor at all? I've never robbed a bank, and I show no remorse over it. -- MattShepherd 21:36, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Fofana admits being involved in the kidnapping, not the murder. Moez talk 22:33, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Got another "Uh..."
I think either somebody translated incorrectly, or somebody with a bias had a little fun.
Under heading "2010 Trial", it is stated "Samir Aït Abdelmalek (15 years, persecution asked for 20 years) and Jean Christophe Soumbou (18 years, persecution asked for 20 years)" "Persecution" is what happens when people unjustly harass, torment, etc. "Prosecution" is the act of legally administering justice according to law. It is also the legal term for the lawyers arguing for the State. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
130.76.96.146 (
talk)
16:56, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Since there is distinct and discrete discussion and evidence that the crime may have been religiously ( Islam) motivated, Category:Islam and antisemitism is appropriate regardless if the act was performed by laypeople. -- Avi 02:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Are there reliable sources that specifically say that antisemitism encouraged by Islam was a motive? Bless sins 17:49, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Please see WP:EL#Links_normally_to_be_avoided. It says:
"Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See Reliable sources for explanations of the terms "factually inaccurate material" or "unverifiable research"."
Now "Reliable sources" leads to Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/examples#Use_of_electronic_or_online_sources. The preceding links declares "Widely acknowledged extremist organizations or individuals, whether of a political, religious, racist, or other character, should be used only as primary sources; that is, they should only be used in articles about those organizations or individuals and their activities. Even then they should be used with caution."
Thus extremist sources are NOT to be used. Bless sins 04:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I have cited the interview directly to the JTA source, so it should be acceptable to everyone. -- Avi 00:38, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia: Non-free content states that the following is unacceptable:
"A photo from a press agency (e.g. AP), unless the photo itself is the subject of sourced commentary in the article. This applies mostly to contemporary press photos and not necessarily to historical archives of press photos."
Hence I think the AFP-photo of Ilan Halimi should be removed. Do you agree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Suladna ( talk • contribs) 19:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Why is the identification of kidnappers by their religion so important to be included in the lead? It appears that the kidnappers were not all of the same religion, thus the religion factor seems a bit non-notable. It's acceptable to mention the religion in the body. Bless sins ( talk) 20:16, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
The crime was basically motivated by greed. It is unclear whether anti-semitism from the leader of the gang and one or two of his henchmen (from a non-muslim backgrond) were an additional aggravating circumstance; Saciperere ( talk) 15:17, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
As hideous and heinous as this crime was, we cannot violate wikipedia policies and guidelines. Other wikimedia projects may not be used as sources. If anything, the sources supporting the statements in the other projects' articles need to be brought here. Furthermore, listing the names of people without bringing any source at all is another BLP violation. Bring sources, or leave it blank. -- Avi ( talk) 17:48, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Christophe, Jean-Christophe, Gilles, Cédric, Franco, Francis, Tifenn, Audrey, Fabrice, Jérémy, Alexandra etc ... ARE NOT MUSLIM NAMES BUT CHRISTIAN NAMES. 20 members of the gang are Christian, 6 or 7 Muslim ! you can verify this on the French page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.7.124.43 ( talk) 13:31, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
I am French and well remember (from reliable sources like Le Monde) that the lawyer for the Halimi family stated that there were no Coran readings on the phone and that judicial authorities had to issue a statement to say the body had NOT been mutilated, while the Wikipedia article says the contrary. Can somebody check the source for these rumours ? And I don't know why the Roumi case is mentioned here either, it was quite a different happening, by different people, in the same suburb, among lost youngsters, including the victim, childhood friends all, falling out on a drug dealing quarrel. Saciperere ( talk) 15:13, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
I was not aware that having "pro-Palestinian" literature would be considered a motive for engaging in terrorist activity. "The police reportedly found "Islamic fundamentalist and pro-Palestinian literature" during one arrest. However, the suspects are not known extremists, a police intelligence official said." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.108.207.234 ( talk) 00:38, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Actually, all the police found was an appeal for a Palestinian charity in the appartment of the parents of one suspect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.112.73.103 ( talk) 07:51, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
The title of this article leads me to believe that it is translated directly from the French... "Gang of Barbarians" or "Gang of Barbarians case" would probably be a more appropriate title. Paris1127 ( talk) 16:12, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
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A fact from Gang of Barbarians appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 2 March 2006. The text of the entry was as follows:
|
This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This is the
talk page of a
redirect that targets the page: • Murder of Ilan Halimi Because this page is not frequently watched, present and future discussions, edit requests and requested moves should take place at: • Talk:Murder of Ilan Halimi |
The contents of the Gang of Barbarians page were merged into Killing of Ilan Halimi on 1 September 2019. For the contribution history and old versions of the merged article please see its history. |
Material from Ilan Halimi was split to Gang of Barbarians on 08:48, 5 June 2013 from this version. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted so long as the latter page exists. Please leave this template in place to link the article histories and preserve this attribution. The former page's talk page can be accessed at Talk:Ilan Halimi. |
Article says presumption of innocence applies, but under French law, it is instead presumption of guilt. ThuranX 18:10, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Is that black humour? Of course presumption of innocence is the rule in France like in all countries in the world.11:15, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
see : "But the Paris public prosecutor, Jean-Claude Marin, told Parisian Jewish radio on Thursday that "no element of the current investigation could link this murder to an anti-Semitic declaration or action." The umbrella group of French Jewish secular organizations, CRIF, issued a statement Friday calling on the Jewish community "to keep calm, cautious and wait for developments in the investigation." see
[1].
Moez
14:49, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
[2]. The link between Islam and this sordid affair is only superficial. It is being used by some politician and activists in France for a political agenda, as the presidential elections are close in France. de Villier for instance is communicating using the "Islam menace to Europe" credo, which has a certain impact on some xenophobic people. He is basically conveting suffrage from the Front national voters. Neither the french prime minister, Sarkozy, nor le ministre des sceaux (justice) nor the prosecutor directly in touch with the file have implied Islam. Indeed, the only direct link to Islam is the testimony of the uncle to a newspaper who said he heard Koran recitation over the phone when negotiating the ransom. Ilan's parent have not made this testimony, nor did the police. the link with Islam is therefore tenuous and should not be presented in the introduction. The sentence "already marked by intense public controversy about the role of Muslim immigrants in its society" is just giving a background the way it is written now and is clearly a POV. Moez 01:49, 28 February 2006 (UTC).
If the religion of the murderers (Islam) is not relevant, then surely the religion of the victim (Jewish) is not relevant either. Perhaps all religious references or anything that could be interpreted as providing ethnic dimension to this affair should be removed from this article for the function of political correctness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.80.32.8 ( talk) 21:01, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
If this was a murder committed by Christians it would not be an issue to mention their religion as a motive. However since they were Muslim it has been deemed "offensive" and "unmentionable." Give me a break. There are multiple mentions of religion being a motive in this crime (i.e. comments made about passages of the Qur'an being mentioned while the victim was being tortured). Theseus1776 ( talk) 21:44, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
[3]. Now this idea is really farfetched! The simplest explanation is that Ilan's family was not able to pay the exhorbitant lump money, more than half a million dollar. They simply are of modest origin. The antisemitism comes here : the gang said that, according to them, all the jews are wealthy and therefore they had money. This stupid stereotype led them to kidnap a jew, thinking he was rich. Moreover, the police was assisting them during the contact with the kidnapper, and their goal was to catch the kidnapper. All this does not make this allegation serious. Moez 01:59, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
[4] : most on the info removed can be found here, for exemple :
[5]. The family lawer noted the cynicism of Fofana.
I can't find the article(s) where I read the rest. I'll search my browser history tonignt.
Edit (couldn't wait): for the computer guy "moko" beeing the mastermind as well as Zigo beeing the torturer :
[6]
You really should read this : [7]. Unbelievable! Moez talk 12:49, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Please see this article, where we learn that Fofana is eating a plate of fish in the compagny of his girlfriend, both wearing expensive sport uniform and visibly very decontracted. (in French) link
How can one of the criminals deny having committed the crime and "show no remorse?" Wouldn't he have to admit to the crime before not showing remorse became a factor at all? I've never robbed a bank, and I show no remorse over it. -- MattShepherd 21:36, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Fofana admits being involved in the kidnapping, not the murder. Moez talk 22:33, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Got another "Uh..."
I think either somebody translated incorrectly, or somebody with a bias had a little fun.
Under heading "2010 Trial", it is stated "Samir Aït Abdelmalek (15 years, persecution asked for 20 years) and Jean Christophe Soumbou (18 years, persecution asked for 20 years)" "Persecution" is what happens when people unjustly harass, torment, etc. "Prosecution" is the act of legally administering justice according to law. It is also the legal term for the lawyers arguing for the State. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
130.76.96.146 (
talk)
16:56, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Since there is distinct and discrete discussion and evidence that the crime may have been religiously ( Islam) motivated, Category:Islam and antisemitism is appropriate regardless if the act was performed by laypeople. -- Avi 02:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Are there reliable sources that specifically say that antisemitism encouraged by Islam was a motive? Bless sins 17:49, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Please see WP:EL#Links_normally_to_be_avoided. It says:
"Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See Reliable sources for explanations of the terms "factually inaccurate material" or "unverifiable research"."
Now "Reliable sources" leads to Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/examples#Use_of_electronic_or_online_sources. The preceding links declares "Widely acknowledged extremist organizations or individuals, whether of a political, religious, racist, or other character, should be used only as primary sources; that is, they should only be used in articles about those organizations or individuals and their activities. Even then they should be used with caution."
Thus extremist sources are NOT to be used. Bless sins 04:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
I have cited the interview directly to the JTA source, so it should be acceptable to everyone. -- Avi 00:38, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia: Non-free content states that the following is unacceptable:
"A photo from a press agency (e.g. AP), unless the photo itself is the subject of sourced commentary in the article. This applies mostly to contemporary press photos and not necessarily to historical archives of press photos."
Hence I think the AFP-photo of Ilan Halimi should be removed. Do you agree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Suladna ( talk • contribs) 19:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Why is the identification of kidnappers by their religion so important to be included in the lead? It appears that the kidnappers were not all of the same religion, thus the religion factor seems a bit non-notable. It's acceptable to mention the religion in the body. Bless sins ( talk) 20:16, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
The crime was basically motivated by greed. It is unclear whether anti-semitism from the leader of the gang and one or two of his henchmen (from a non-muslim backgrond) were an additional aggravating circumstance; Saciperere ( talk) 15:17, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
As hideous and heinous as this crime was, we cannot violate wikipedia policies and guidelines. Other wikimedia projects may not be used as sources. If anything, the sources supporting the statements in the other projects' articles need to be brought here. Furthermore, listing the names of people without bringing any source at all is another BLP violation. Bring sources, or leave it blank. -- Avi ( talk) 17:48, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Christophe, Jean-Christophe, Gilles, Cédric, Franco, Francis, Tifenn, Audrey, Fabrice, Jérémy, Alexandra etc ... ARE NOT MUSLIM NAMES BUT CHRISTIAN NAMES. 20 members of the gang are Christian, 6 or 7 Muslim ! you can verify this on the French page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.7.124.43 ( talk) 13:31, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
I am French and well remember (from reliable sources like Le Monde) that the lawyer for the Halimi family stated that there were no Coran readings on the phone and that judicial authorities had to issue a statement to say the body had NOT been mutilated, while the Wikipedia article says the contrary. Can somebody check the source for these rumours ? And I don't know why the Roumi case is mentioned here either, it was quite a different happening, by different people, in the same suburb, among lost youngsters, including the victim, childhood friends all, falling out on a drug dealing quarrel. Saciperere ( talk) 15:13, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
I was not aware that having "pro-Palestinian" literature would be considered a motive for engaging in terrorist activity. "The police reportedly found "Islamic fundamentalist and pro-Palestinian literature" during one arrest. However, the suspects are not known extremists, a police intelligence official said." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.108.207.234 ( talk) 00:38, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Actually, all the police found was an appeal for a Palestinian charity in the appartment of the parents of one suspect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.112.73.103 ( talk) 07:51, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
The title of this article leads me to believe that it is translated directly from the French... "Gang of Barbarians" or "Gang of Barbarians case" would probably be a more appropriate title. Paris1127 ( talk) 16:12, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 14:59, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
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