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![]() | Gaels of Scotland was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 14 July 2019 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Gaels. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
Why is someone altering this article to present Gaels as an Ethno-Linguistic group rather than an Ethnic group? This is not at all the norm for other ethnic groups on wikipedia. Gaels are an Ethnic group and should be respected as such. Can someone explain why Gaels are singled out on wikipedia with this term and not other groups? Pazymuk ( talk) 09:31, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
Just curious why only the planation's of ulster are mentioned even though the planation's of Ireland in general were horrific especially the 1583 ones or what about the Cromwell planation's? Also the reason given for the ulster planation's isn't accurate, the main reason was because of the nine years war, which ended with the land being confiscated by GB, the Irish were to rebellious to be left unchecked in ulster. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newfellower ( talk • contribs) 23:25, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
unless ye count being able to speak Irish as having a vocabulary of 5 words. Less than 2% of the population can speak Irish and even they are fluent in English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newfellower ( talk • contribs) 23:36, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
I don't quite see the point of the Scots Gaelic people page and it feels somewhat artificial. While I've occasionally heard the term Scots Gaelic people, I've never come across it quite with that definition (i.e. Scots Gaelic people = Highlander), especially since Gaelic is not exclusive to the Highlands and while the page has sources, it doesn't seem to have one for the definition of the term itself and might be OR? Akerbeltz ( talk) 09:25, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
This segment:
In their own national epic contained within medieval works such as the Lebor Gabála Érenn, the Gaels trace the origin of their people to an eponymous ancestor named Goídel Glas. He is described as a Scythian prince (the grandson of Fénius Farsaid), who is credited with creating the Gaelic languages. Goídel's mother is called Scota, described as an Egyptian princess. The Gaels are depicted as wandering from place to place for hundreds of years; they spend time in Egypt, Crete, Scythia, the Caspian Sea and Getulia, before arriving in Iberia, where their king, Breogán, is said to have founded Galicia.
needs clarification that modern scholars do not take this origin myth (of a Middle/Near Eastern origin of the Gaels) seriously.
See, e.g., Pictish language#Discredited theories for how WP should handle the "Scythian myth". — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:20, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
It's completely inappropriate to claim/assume that every person identifying as 'Irish' or (especially) 'Scottish' today is 'ancestrally Gaelic', as this article seems to at times suggest. These terms do not correlate with Gaelic ancestry at all today. It is true that the gradual fusing of the Gaelic world with the English world in these regions has led to a blurring of the lines and a repeated watering down of what 'Irish' or 'Scottish' means to the point of near total irrelevance by this point, but there are large amounts of people identifying as Irish in Ireland today with Norse, Norman, English, Brittonic or other types of ancestry (full or partial). Even many prominent Irish nationalists who identified only as Irish were, at best, half 'Gaelic' by descent.
In the case of Scotland, it's just absolutely beyond ludicrous. As they were overwhelmingly of non-Gaelic ancestry even at the time Gaelic's zenith in the region and many of the Gaelic-speakers themselves at that time were of Pictish or Norse descent.
When people identify as 'Scottish' today, they absolutely are not identifying as Gaelic. I can 100% assure you of this. Now you can absolutely make the case the term Scottish has been culturally appropriated by the vast majority of people using it today and how inappropriate it is (I firmly agree with that), especially considering many of the people using the term 'Scottish' today as a self-identifier are ancestrally descended from the people responsible for the near total, forced ethnocide of Gaels within Scotland historically.
But this article is effectively lending validity and credence to that ethnocide of Gaels historically within northern Britain by suggesting what it at times does throughout this article.
2.99.72.43 (
talk) 08:31, 5 August 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock.
Mutt Lunker (
talk)
11:24, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
@ The Banner in your recent edit, you said: "...why? Looks like a completely different ancestry", does that logic not also apply to Norse-Gaels, Gaelicised Normans, Celtic Britons, Scottish Romani Travellers? Alssa1 ( talk) 00:01, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
What's the fuss suddenly about the "related groups"? Yes, it lacks sources in the infobox but the pages linked themselves contain numerous sources and none of them are controversial
Yes, in an ideal world we source everything, but the reality is that nobody has that much time and that a lot of uncontroversial stuff is left unsourced for long periods. Which is where subject experts are due more weight than policy lawyers, so I'm with the Banner here. Akerbeltz ( talk) 12:06, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
The picture shown does not communicate the influence that Gaelic culture has on the non-Gaelic parts of Scotland like Orkney and Shetland. 84.203.151.5 ( talk) 03:36, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
It has been years since I was last on the page, but it seems that actual, important recorded history has been erased under the history page,and a section form mythology has been places as the first segment of history? Prior the rise in Irish identity, or nationality, there was never a mention that Gaels were related to egypt or Scythia, yet for 100s of years the Gaels amd Romans wrote mamy things.
This section should be under mythology and not history, as it is not history, its an Irish myth with no evidence to be history. 2A02:C7F:C7A:4A00:81E1:550A:D9EC:2ABE ( talk) 15:15, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Gaels article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2 |
![]() | This article is written in Scottish English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, travelled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Gaels of Scotland was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 14 July 2019 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Gaels. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
Why is someone altering this article to present Gaels as an Ethno-Linguistic group rather than an Ethnic group? This is not at all the norm for other ethnic groups on wikipedia. Gaels are an Ethnic group and should be respected as such. Can someone explain why Gaels are singled out on wikipedia with this term and not other groups? Pazymuk ( talk) 09:31, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
Just curious why only the planation's of ulster are mentioned even though the planation's of Ireland in general were horrific especially the 1583 ones or what about the Cromwell planation's? Also the reason given for the ulster planation's isn't accurate, the main reason was because of the nine years war, which ended with the land being confiscated by GB, the Irish were to rebellious to be left unchecked in ulster. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newfellower ( talk • contribs) 23:25, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
unless ye count being able to speak Irish as having a vocabulary of 5 words. Less than 2% of the population can speak Irish and even they are fluent in English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newfellower ( talk • contribs) 23:36, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
I don't quite see the point of the Scots Gaelic people page and it feels somewhat artificial. While I've occasionally heard the term Scots Gaelic people, I've never come across it quite with that definition (i.e. Scots Gaelic people = Highlander), especially since Gaelic is not exclusive to the Highlands and while the page has sources, it doesn't seem to have one for the definition of the term itself and might be OR? Akerbeltz ( talk) 09:25, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
This segment:
In their own national epic contained within medieval works such as the Lebor Gabála Érenn, the Gaels trace the origin of their people to an eponymous ancestor named Goídel Glas. He is described as a Scythian prince (the grandson of Fénius Farsaid), who is credited with creating the Gaelic languages. Goídel's mother is called Scota, described as an Egyptian princess. The Gaels are depicted as wandering from place to place for hundreds of years; they spend time in Egypt, Crete, Scythia, the Caspian Sea and Getulia, before arriving in Iberia, where their king, Breogán, is said to have founded Galicia.
needs clarification that modern scholars do not take this origin myth (of a Middle/Near Eastern origin of the Gaels) seriously.
See, e.g., Pictish language#Discredited theories for how WP should handle the "Scythian myth". — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:20, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
It's completely inappropriate to claim/assume that every person identifying as 'Irish' or (especially) 'Scottish' today is 'ancestrally Gaelic', as this article seems to at times suggest. These terms do not correlate with Gaelic ancestry at all today. It is true that the gradual fusing of the Gaelic world with the English world in these regions has led to a blurring of the lines and a repeated watering down of what 'Irish' or 'Scottish' means to the point of near total irrelevance by this point, but there are large amounts of people identifying as Irish in Ireland today with Norse, Norman, English, Brittonic or other types of ancestry (full or partial). Even many prominent Irish nationalists who identified only as Irish were, at best, half 'Gaelic' by descent.
In the case of Scotland, it's just absolutely beyond ludicrous. As they were overwhelmingly of non-Gaelic ancestry even at the time Gaelic's zenith in the region and many of the Gaelic-speakers themselves at that time were of Pictish or Norse descent.
When people identify as 'Scottish' today, they absolutely are not identifying as Gaelic. I can 100% assure you of this. Now you can absolutely make the case the term Scottish has been culturally appropriated by the vast majority of people using it today and how inappropriate it is (I firmly agree with that), especially considering many of the people using the term 'Scottish' today as a self-identifier are ancestrally descended from the people responsible for the near total, forced ethnocide of Gaels within Scotland historically.
But this article is effectively lending validity and credence to that ethnocide of Gaels historically within northern Britain by suggesting what it at times does throughout this article.
2.99.72.43 (
talk) 08:31, 5 August 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock.
Mutt Lunker (
talk)
11:24, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
@ The Banner in your recent edit, you said: "...why? Looks like a completely different ancestry", does that logic not also apply to Norse-Gaels, Gaelicised Normans, Celtic Britons, Scottish Romani Travellers? Alssa1 ( talk) 00:01, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
What's the fuss suddenly about the "related groups"? Yes, it lacks sources in the infobox but the pages linked themselves contain numerous sources and none of them are controversial
Yes, in an ideal world we source everything, but the reality is that nobody has that much time and that a lot of uncontroversial stuff is left unsourced for long periods. Which is where subject experts are due more weight than policy lawyers, so I'm with the Banner here. Akerbeltz ( talk) 12:06, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
The picture shown does not communicate the influence that Gaelic culture has on the non-Gaelic parts of Scotland like Orkney and Shetland. 84.203.151.5 ( talk) 03:36, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
It has been years since I was last on the page, but it seems that actual, important recorded history has been erased under the history page,and a section form mythology has been places as the first segment of history? Prior the rise in Irish identity, or nationality, there was never a mention that Gaels were related to egypt or Scythia, yet for 100s of years the Gaels amd Romans wrote mamy things.
This section should be under mythology and not history, as it is not history, its an Irish myth with no evidence to be history. 2A02:C7F:C7A:4A00:81E1:550A:D9EC:2ABE ( talk) 15:15, 22 February 2024 (UTC)