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Encausse was totally uninvolved in Thelema and should not be put in the Thelema category. Encausse died in 1916 - Crowley did not publish the Gnostic Mass until 1918 and it was not performed until 1933. Putting Reuss in the Thelema category is entirely reasonable as he was involved for a time with Crowley and Thelema. Encausse was not. The EGC was thoroughly a Christian Gnostic Church based on Doinel's vision throughout Encausse's life.
Crowley had little or no infuence on Encausse and Encausse had little or no influence on Thelema. A line has to be drawn somewhere, and this is it. Certainly he can be linked in from the History section of E.G.C. and O.T.O. articles, but to subsume him into the Thelema category would be misleading. Feel free to refute this view if you have references. You'll note that the word Thelema does not even occur in the article.
- 999 01:51, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Encause was more influential on and more connected to Crowley than you seem to notice.
1) Encausse was a member of the Paris chapter of the HOGD; Crowley was a member of HOGD as well, and specifically loyal to the Paris (Mathers) faction. Both Mathers and Encausse worked on translations of the Kabbalah; Crowley utilized their work in his own subsequent materials. Crowley was aware of and knew Encausse *before* Crowley entered acquaintanceship with Reuss.
2) Thelema is Crowley's building upon two pillars: HOGD and Reuss's OTO.
Thelema incorporates all of these.
3) To bring up the date of the PUBLICATION of Crowley's revisions of the Reuss OTO material and of Doinel's Gnostic Mass is not relevant to the subject of Thelemic currents or literary influences, in fact, it seems to represent a deliberate attempt to confuse the issue, because although Crowley's Gnostic mass revision was published in 1918, after Encausse had died, Crowley actually WROTE his revised Gnostic Mass in 1913 in Moscow, while Encausse was still very much alive -- and, on top of that, Encausse's connections to Crowley stretch all the way back to the Paris HOGD, long before Crowley met Reuss, and well before Reuss met Encausse -- back to when Encausse was writing on Kabbalah and Tarot, and both men owed allegiance to Mathers.
To deny that Encausse had an extremely strong role in the development of Thelema seems a-historical. I sense an agenda here, but i cannot understand it. Is Encausse persona non grata with Thelemites these days? if so, why? Or is this urge to remove Encausse from Thelemic history based in the notion that purging Encausse somehow makes Crowley seem more "original" and less influenced by Doinel, Encausse, and reuss?
No one is saying that Encausse was a member of the Abbey of Thelema. However, we cannot understand Thelema as it is presently manefested without understanding the Neo-Gnostic EGC aspcts of Thelema, which derive directly through Reuss, Encausse, and ultimately from Doinel. Please read the evidence at http://www.egnu.org/universalis.mhtml under the heading Masses.
I strongly believe that Encausse belongs in any article or article-set describing the history of Thelema because Crowley did not develop his revised OTO in a vacuum -- he got it from Reuss's OTO. Likewise Crowley's revised EGC Mass utilized Reuss's EGC, which was actually Encausse's EGC and thus utilized the Doinel Gnostic Mass text. This is historical fact.
Catherineyronwode 03:52, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
1) I did not put the Thelema cat on the Encausse page in the first place. I did reinstate it, though, because i thought it mde sense there. It now seems obvious to me that it is very important to Thelemites to eliminate Encausse -- even going so far as to draw specious parallels between him and Mohammed.
2) Contrary to your rhetorical slam at me, i did not claim "Crowley having derived his Gnostic Mass from Doinel's Mass." I said that the very existence of a Gnostic Mass in the OTO came about because Reuss had gotten a Gnostic Mass from Encausse who had gotten it from its author Doinel. If not for Encausse and Reuss, Crowley would have never have had cause to have written a Gnostic Mass.
3) Contrary to your complaint, i did not move anything on this talk page: i did notice, however, an "editing conflict" message came up when i posted last night -- we both tried to post at the same time, and everything got screwed up. I saved what i had in my buffer (your stuff and mine) and flowed it in, but some stuff was completely lost, including two more paragraphs that i had written. These things happen due to software issues and have nothing to do with intentions.
4) There are control issues surrounding Thelema's presence at WP that are evident, obvious, and hard-felt. In my opinion, this is not a good thing for Wikipedia.
Catherineyronwode 06:39, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
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It's 100% absurd to name this page "Gérard Encauss" while he is known by everyone as Papus — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E35:8A8D:FE80:9893:6B6E:8712:5C2B ( talk) 06:31, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
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Encausse was totally uninvolved in Thelema and should not be put in the Thelema category. Encausse died in 1916 - Crowley did not publish the Gnostic Mass until 1918 and it was not performed until 1933. Putting Reuss in the Thelema category is entirely reasonable as he was involved for a time with Crowley and Thelema. Encausse was not. The EGC was thoroughly a Christian Gnostic Church based on Doinel's vision throughout Encausse's life.
Crowley had little or no infuence on Encausse and Encausse had little or no influence on Thelema. A line has to be drawn somewhere, and this is it. Certainly he can be linked in from the History section of E.G.C. and O.T.O. articles, but to subsume him into the Thelema category would be misleading. Feel free to refute this view if you have references. You'll note that the word Thelema does not even occur in the article.
- 999 01:51, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Encause was more influential on and more connected to Crowley than you seem to notice.
1) Encausse was a member of the Paris chapter of the HOGD; Crowley was a member of HOGD as well, and specifically loyal to the Paris (Mathers) faction. Both Mathers and Encausse worked on translations of the Kabbalah; Crowley utilized their work in his own subsequent materials. Crowley was aware of and knew Encausse *before* Crowley entered acquaintanceship with Reuss.
2) Thelema is Crowley's building upon two pillars: HOGD and Reuss's OTO.
Thelema incorporates all of these.
3) To bring up the date of the PUBLICATION of Crowley's revisions of the Reuss OTO material and of Doinel's Gnostic Mass is not relevant to the subject of Thelemic currents or literary influences, in fact, it seems to represent a deliberate attempt to confuse the issue, because although Crowley's Gnostic mass revision was published in 1918, after Encausse had died, Crowley actually WROTE his revised Gnostic Mass in 1913 in Moscow, while Encausse was still very much alive -- and, on top of that, Encausse's connections to Crowley stretch all the way back to the Paris HOGD, long before Crowley met Reuss, and well before Reuss met Encausse -- back to when Encausse was writing on Kabbalah and Tarot, and both men owed allegiance to Mathers.
To deny that Encausse had an extremely strong role in the development of Thelema seems a-historical. I sense an agenda here, but i cannot understand it. Is Encausse persona non grata with Thelemites these days? if so, why? Or is this urge to remove Encausse from Thelemic history based in the notion that purging Encausse somehow makes Crowley seem more "original" and less influenced by Doinel, Encausse, and reuss?
No one is saying that Encausse was a member of the Abbey of Thelema. However, we cannot understand Thelema as it is presently manefested without understanding the Neo-Gnostic EGC aspcts of Thelema, which derive directly through Reuss, Encausse, and ultimately from Doinel. Please read the evidence at http://www.egnu.org/universalis.mhtml under the heading Masses.
I strongly believe that Encausse belongs in any article or article-set describing the history of Thelema because Crowley did not develop his revised OTO in a vacuum -- he got it from Reuss's OTO. Likewise Crowley's revised EGC Mass utilized Reuss's EGC, which was actually Encausse's EGC and thus utilized the Doinel Gnostic Mass text. This is historical fact.
Catherineyronwode 03:52, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
1) I did not put the Thelema cat on the Encausse page in the first place. I did reinstate it, though, because i thought it mde sense there. It now seems obvious to me that it is very important to Thelemites to eliminate Encausse -- even going so far as to draw specious parallels between him and Mohammed.
2) Contrary to your rhetorical slam at me, i did not claim "Crowley having derived his Gnostic Mass from Doinel's Mass." I said that the very existence of a Gnostic Mass in the OTO came about because Reuss had gotten a Gnostic Mass from Encausse who had gotten it from its author Doinel. If not for Encausse and Reuss, Crowley would have never have had cause to have written a Gnostic Mass.
3) Contrary to your complaint, i did not move anything on this talk page: i did notice, however, an "editing conflict" message came up when i posted last night -- we both tried to post at the same time, and everything got screwed up. I saved what i had in my buffer (your stuff and mine) and flowed it in, but some stuff was completely lost, including two more paragraphs that i had written. These things happen due to software issues and have nothing to do with intentions.
4) There are control issues surrounding Thelema's presence at WP that are evident, obvious, and hard-felt. In my opinion, this is not a good thing for Wikipedia.
Catherineyronwode 06:39, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
![]() |
An image used in this article,
File:Papus.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Media without a source as of 13 May 2012
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Papus.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 10:04, 13 May 2012 (UTC) |
It's 100% absurd to name this page "Gérard Encauss" while he is known by everyone as Papus — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E35:8A8D:FE80:9893:6B6E:8712:5C2B ( talk) 06:31, 16 December 2016 (UTC)