![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Should Funk be considered as a genre independent of Soul or Rhythm and Blues, or as a version of either? It does after all combine elements of soul, sycodelia, and true R&B with a unique element of it's own, which makes it confusingly appear as both a bridge between genres, and a new genre formed through this continuing cross polination. ~Jack D. 10:28UTC 8/2/05
I removed the above in the interest of NPOV. Tuf-Kat 04:21, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)
I gotta speak up an' add "Soul Finger" by the Bar-Kays to the list!! -- deeceevoice - June 22, 2004
-- mac_c 10:01, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Maybe I've missed the discussion since I'm pretty new to wikipedia, but why is there a link to the punk genre on the funk page?
For example, the Final Fight and Pilotwings 64 titles, as well as the non-videogame album Expert Knob Twiddlers by Mike Paradinas and Richard D James (track 1, "Mr. Frosty", and the other track, "The Sound of Beady Eyes" -- go look for said tracks on Soulseek or something). Was this music actually funk, or some 80's-electro-spinoff genre of funk? After all, that kind of (funk?) reminds me more of Isaac Hayes' character in Escape From New York, rather than of James Brown spinning around and screaming" "HEY!" to bouncy quarternote trumpets, like a cyberpunk-funk, if you will. That's the best I can explain what I'm inquiring about. Any more information on this (sub?)genre? I'm very interested -- I run like a Welshman 23:56, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This is from memory of one of Charles Chilton's radio programmes so it can not go into the article unless someone confirms it. The early jazz horn player Buddy Bolden performed at 'Funky Butt Hall'and named his theme song after it. At that time funky butt meant 'smelly arse'.
Butt still means arse but funky seems to mean almost anything you want it to. mikeL
Good stuff. Thanks. But it could use a little cleaning up. I don't have the time. Someone else wanna take a crack at it. deeceevoice 14:05, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"once formally defined as the smell of sexual intercourse" --- surprising and difficult to accept! Please give proper references: defined when? by whom? etc. and did it apply just locally somewhere? and what does 'formally' mean in this context?
Sexual intercourse in the social sense can have many smells scent, alcohol and so on. In the carnal sense it may have smells in other creatures but given normal hygene it is virtually odourless in humans.
The word funk has other, older, meanings associated with fear or depression which are still in common use.
Perhaps the connotations with smell have nothing to do with the original 'funk' but developed from the word 'fug'. mikeL
Sorry that us Brits have made such a mess of the American language, :-)
ChrisR, Newbury UK (04 SEP 05)
Transferred from " http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Talk:funk"
Please, let's take this out..
The Brazilian funk has *NO* relations with this funk.. Not even with electro music..
Brazilian Funk talk about sex, drugs and money with a very poor musicality.
Hey, there's some confusing language in the origin paragraph. The sentence reads: "At least as early as the 1930s, jazz songs carried titles such as Buddy Bolden's "Funky Butt." Bolden never played a note in public after 1907; this sentence can be read to say that Bolden was playing/recording in the 30s. Don't know the protocol for editing, and don't much feel like stepping on the author's toes. Just figured I would point this out. Thanks, essvee 206.81.102.145 15:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I've tried to add a section under recent developments on the New Funk scene. This could use its own page and expansion. Also the Deep Funk collectors scene could use a write up and/or page.
Everytime I've added a link related to deep funk, which involves thousands of people around the world, a user named Ezeu edits them out as spam. None of the sites I added are commercial in nature, and are the most relevant sites to this scene.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.128.95.47 ( talk • contribs)
I really must agree with the above. The "underground" Deep Funk scene is very significant and is based mainly on artists who recorded on American independant labels. As a result many of these records were often released in very small numbers and the artists never went on to become famous. However their rediscovery and reissue on 45's and compilations have greatly increased the ownership of such tracks. Some of these tracks are now considered classics of the genre. For example "Sexy Cofee Pot" by Tony Avlon and the Belairs, "Iron Leg" By Mickey and the Soul Generation, or "Baby Don't Cry" by The Third Guitar. I would add this section myself but I think it really should be written by somebody who specialises in collecting funk 45's.
Philster
16:33, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed the chiptune funk section. Chiptunes in general are quite far from funk. Funk is more closely related to Toe Jam & Earl game that was mentioned (that section can be returned in some form). (Also some scenemusicians such as Moby (not that famous Moby) and Nuke made funky MOD-music for Amiga). -- 128.214.205.5 09:35, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
According to some reviewers this book contains inaccuracies, especially amongst its album and track listings. Should this be mentioned in the 'Further reading' category? Deke42 21:25, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
h
Someone should write about go go on here, since it's one of two sub-genres listed, and doesn't even get a sentence. I would do it but don't know much about it. -- Awiseman 17:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I semiprotected the article. I'll add it to my watchlist. --- J.S ( T/ C) 23:58, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Let's try unprotecting--it's been quite a while, and the worst spam culprit is now on the blacklist. Let me know or post to WP:RFPP if it becomes a problem again. Chick Bowen 06:16, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The Pod Of Funk is a blog (no: it's a PODCAST, i.e it contains enclosed media files Deekdeekster 08:57, 13 March 2007 (UTC) DD.) and it does not pass the guidelines in WP:EL. Here are the points in the section of "Sites to normally avoid" that I believe apply to this page:
--- J.S ( T/ C/ WRE) 23:46, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
"Already, in late 1960s, many jazz musicians — among them Horace Silver, Herbie Hancock (with his Headhunters band), Grover Washington, Jr., and Cannonball Adderley, Les McCann and Eddie Harris — had begun to combine jazz and funk. Sometimes this approach is called "jazz-funk". Additionally, in the late 1960s work of Miles Davis (with girlfriend/wife Betty Davis) and Tony Williams helped to create Jazz fusion and influenced funk."
The Headhunters had not even been assembled until '73- It is erroneous to include the group as "late 1960's" pioneers of jazz funk. Of course, Herbie IS a seminal figure in the movement and his name is synonymous with the word 'funk-' but not with the Headhunters in the 60's.
More should be written here about Jazz-Funk. Wahwahwilliam 05:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
indeed.
Quoting the article : The word "funk", once defined in dictionaries as body odor or the smell of sexual intercourse, commonly was regarded as coarse or indecent. I found that pretty surprising, as I had never heard that before, so I did some quick research online, and I've seen several different meanings for the word, including cowardly, but never that one. Even the very few websites that seemed to be using the word in that way didn't associate it with body odor. I wish there were sources for that, perhaps saying which dictionary defines funk that way. Alessiasakura 13:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I assume the funk styles article relates here. Paul foord ( talk) 02:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Herb Bombgarden and the Little Yogurts should be added to the list of funk bands. They are very popular in Finland but no one knows about them elsewhere. I went back there this summer and watched a show and it took my breath away
That's far better! Since the last time I looked, the New Funk/ Deep Funk addition, plus that of several other users has greatly improved the article which is now looking cosiderably more accurate. It is a good idea to have a separate page for Deep Funk.
As someone who knows very little about this subject and has just stumbled across these pages i can't help noticing the similarity of content between a lot of the pages within this genre. Specifically Funk rock has identical paragraphs. Could do with a good tidy up, but then couldn't everything... :s extraordinary ( talk) 15:31, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
"Funk music is characterized by intensely syncopated, danceable rhythms with the emphasis falling heavily on the first beat of every measure". A syncopated rhythm, according to the backbeat article has emphasis on beats 2 and 4, so one wonders why the rhythm would have heavy emphasis on the first beat of every measure. One of these articles is wrong. And would a source kill anybody?-- I'll bring the food ( Talk - Contribs - My Watchlist) 19:57, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Re: the dispute above, here are a few relevant passages from some authoritative sources with citations.
Here's the beginning of the genre page on funk from the All Music Guide (with a link at the end):
Named after a slang word for "stink," funk was indeed the rawest, most primal form of R&B, surpassing even Southern soul in terms of earthiness. It was also the least structured, often stretching out into extended jams, and the most Africanized, built on dynamic, highly syncopated polyrhythms. [2]
Here's the first paragraph of the article on funk in Grove Music Online, the online version of the
Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians:
An African-American popular music style. It features syncopated interlocking rhythm patterns based on straight quaver and semiquaver subdivisions, a vocal style drawn from soul music, extended vamps based on a single and often complex harmony, strong emphasis on the bass line, and lyrics with frequent spiritual themes and social commentary. The use of the term for a musical style inverts the negative colloquial meaning of strong aromas, particularly of a bodily and sexual nature.
(David Brackett: 'Funk', Grove Music Online ed. L. Macy (Accessed 1 March 2007), http://www.grovemusic.com) (This is the citation format the Dictionary specifically requests.)
A few sentences later in the same article:
He [James Brown] refined his approach in Cold Sweat (1967) by substituting open-ended vamps based on a single harmony for harmonic progressions, and by accenting strongly the first beat of every or every other 4/4 bar, freeing the instruments to play any number of syncopated patterns in which the beats are implied rather than stated.
And here's most of the first paragraph from the Grove entry on syncopation:
The regular shifting of each beat in a measured pattern by the same amount ahead of or behind its normal position in that pattern; in polyphonic textures this may occur in some or all of the parts. Syncopation usually occurs in lines in which the strong beats receive no articulation. This means either that they are silent, as in ex.1 (in this connection, see also Off-beat), or that each note is articulated on a weak beat (or between two beats) and tied over to the next beat, as in ex.2. Because any syncopated musical line can be perceived as contrary to the pulse established by the organization of the music into bars, syncopation is related to, and sometimes used as a synonym for, Cross-accent, Agogic accent and Cross-rhythm.
('Syncopation', Grove Music Online ed. L. Macy (Accessed 1 March 2007), http://www.grovemusic.com)
I hope this is helpful in resolving the issue. InnocuousPseudonym 02:40, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I think people should avoid literally interpreting things outside of context. Hyacinth ( talk) 23:23, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
The first artist to combine funk with psychedelic rock were the Beck/Page era Yardbirds, on Happenings Ten Years Time Ago. Jimi Hendrix's recorded contribution came later. I have not been able to find a source, but I urge anyone who doubts me to listen to the song, which was released in October 1966. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.84.130.194 ( talk) 07:15, June 24, 2008
A good article let down by those so called "funk categories" towards that end which are laden with inaccuracies and of such dubious significance/truth that they undermine the whole article. Why does the the obsession with rock persist to the extent that it even makes an irrelevant apperance in an article about funk music? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
217.42.196.229 (
talk)
18:52, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Re my above comment: more specifically I mean "funkcore"/"punkfunk" etc - these are of such miniscule importance/notifiability/significance that what the hellare they doing clogging up a generally good article like this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.196.229 ( talk) 18:57, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Intro says "Funk is an American musical style that originated in the mid- to late-1960s when African American musicians blended soul music, soul jazz and R&B into a rhythmic, danceable new form of music", which suggests that funk is a fusion genre. That's not the case. As we all know funk is simply a harder and more complex version of soul (probably with influenced from jazz and acid rock). And mentioning R&B as on of the sources makes no sense, as funk and soul already are sub-genres of R&B. Netrat_msk ( talk) 17:39, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
The forgotten thing is Drum and bass —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.101.73.105 ( talk) 13:02, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
The use of the imperfect tense throughout this article tends to give the impression that funk is defunct (sorry for the bad pun). Surely funk is alive and kicikin'? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.89.33.37 ( talk) 22:40, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
The statement in the subgenre discussion about Earth Wind and Fire being disco-influenced should be questioned since their "funk sound" was prevalent years before disco. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Freejazzman58 ( talk • contribs) 02:21, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
In the 2nd line the bar has 5 quarters which doesn't make sense to me. Can anyone explain or is it just wrong? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.177.214.95 ( talk) 07:39, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
I deleted this from the article:
That's totally false. Indeed, if nothing else, Billboard Magazine indicates that Stevie Wonder had the following singles that made it to #1 on the U.S. singles chart from 1974 to 1977 (at least one of which is classic "funk"):
1. You Haven't Done Nothin (Tamla Records); hit the Top 40 on August 17, 1974; was on the chart for 14 weeks, including one week at #1.
2. I Wish (Stevie Wonder song) (Tamla Records); hit the Top 40 on December 4, 1976; was on the chart for 15 weeks, including one week at #1. This record is essential "funk".
3. Sir Duke (Tamla Records); hit the Top 40 on April 16, 1977; was on the chart for 13 weeks, including three weeks at #1.
Yours, Famspear ( talk) 03:00, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
I think it might be a god idea to include hip hop in the list of funk-derivatives. Hip-Hop originated out of MCs not so much rapping but hyping the crowd up for the real star: the DJ, who would play breakbeats from funk songs. Even now funk samples are prevalent in Hip Hop and the drum and bass programming of modern hip hop is often very reminiscent of Funk rhythmically (not too mention the lack of harmonic progression). This is partially adressed in the G-Funk section, but I think it's worth expanding upon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.29.46.79 ( talk) 02:35, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
I've reverted an edit that changed "African Americans" in the opening sentence to "blacks". Being neither black nor American, I'm not intimately familiar with the current connotations of either term - I mostly reverted it for the loss of geographical information. If "black Americans" is more neutral, I'd be happy with that too. Ben Ram 11:22, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Bands like "Kriss Kross" are misperceived as "rap," or "R&B" when really they are truly funk. It's really just a style difference, but an important one to distinguish between. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.170.97.171 ( talk) 08:43, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
If you want to get technical AFricans in Africa were doing funk before anyone else anyway. European explores even noted the similarities between blues , and negro spirituals back in the 17, and 18 hundreds.
Again this is just another white washing of history. Any time a black person or African creates something, people try to find ways to take the credit away. The same can be said for any music creation by black people. Blacks start it, everyone gets mad, and wants to find a way to say they created it. The first drums were in africa, the first music was in africa. No historian would even dispute that. So it all goes back to Africa anyway. We can go that rout if there are more people like this poster above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 ( talk • contribs) 23:47, 6 December 2010 (UTC) ~Darkman1984~
Why bring race into it at all? Anyone who views a picture of James Brown can see the tint of his skin. Does the Wikipedia entry on Opera say it was pioneered by white people? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jive Dadson ( talk • contribs) 03:18, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
I strongly suggest that a section be devoted to "Blue Note" style funk. I knew "funk" to be the music of Gene Ammons, Jimmy Smith, Blue Mitchell, Lee Morgan, Horace Silver, Lou Donaldson, et al, decades before I ever heard the term applied to James Brown and cohort. I was a disc jockey in the late 60's, early 70's. I played lots of music by James Brown et al, but I never heard "funk" applied to it. The Blue Note compendium of "Funk and Blues" begins with music recorded in 1954. The Wikipedia disambiguation page does have a link to the 1957 Gene Ammons album "Funky," but that's all there is. Jive Dadson ( talk) 23:25, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 2 external links on
Funk. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 09:25, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
I'm probably as guilty as everyone else here, but this article is becoming farcical. It's been written by so many people, none of whom can even agree on exactly what 'funk' is, that it no longer makes any kind of logical sense.
Apparently funk is based upon Motown and one of its major practitioners was Curtis Mayfield? Illogical Captain, since the careers of Mayfield and the Motown label ran concurrently. Furthermore some later Motown artists cite Mayfield as an influence. It's also polyrhythmic and another major practitioner is Prince. Can anyone point me to a single Prince song with polyrhythmic accompaniment? Didn't think so. Funkadelic aren't that hot on the polyrhythm front either. Ah, but of course you have to listen to the records to hear that and under the rules listening to the records isn't allowed, you have to find a book written by someone else who's listened to them...
Maybe someone should put a disclaimer on all musical entries stating that the article, almost by default, will contain opinion, since there's very little else written about the subject. Deke42 ( talk) 01:48, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
If you want to get technical AFricans in Africa were doing funk before anyone else anyway. European explores even noted the similarities between blues , and negro spirituals back in the 17, and 18 hundreds.
Again this is just another white washing of history. Any time a black person or African creates something, people try to find ways to take the credit away. The same can be said for any music creation by black people. Blacks start it, everyone gets mad, and wants to find a way to say they created it. The first drums were in africa, the first music was in africa. No historian would even dispute that. So it all goes back to Africa anyway. We can go that rout if there are more people like this poster above.
Spare your black supremacist comments for another audience please! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.89.33.37 ( talk) 22:45, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Funk. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 09:20, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
There is a discussion taking place about whether templates (primarily infoboxes) for funk and closely related genres should use a different color than the orange currently used for soul music, at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music/Music genres task force/Colours#Should Funk be a different colour than Soul? Life of Tau 20:53, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
Hi. Sorry for not discussing this with you further. The reason why I edited the info box was because Funk was not borne from psychedelia. When it was created, it was soul music heavily rooted in jazz with some rhythm and blues influences. The psychedelia part came as a secondary influence later on. There are pages that deal with psychedelia's influence on funk, such as psychedelic funk and P-funk. Another edit I made was adding a major part that you guys left out when it comes to the funk guitar. Jimmy Nolen's technique known as the "chicken scratch" (if you don't know what that is, then listen to Papa's Got a Brand New Bag) is an important ingredient to funk. The "wah-wah" guitar is more prominent in psychedelic rock than it is funk. So that's the bold edit that I made. My apologies that it caused a big fuss. Thank you! StephenCezar15 ( talk)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 20:06, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
At least one artist listed is not noteworthy and appears to have vandalized the page to advertise for herself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.93.161.94 ( talk) 11:52, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 21:27, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
This section relies almost entirely on a single source, and in any case I am skeptical of Wikpedia copying the conclusions of such litcritty work. You'd get the impre≥≥ssion from the section that funk could only be concerned with politics! -- Eldomtom2 ( talk) 22:37, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
"Soul music with a greater emphasis on the beats and rhythms of an arrangement, influences from rhythm and blues and jazz"
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I am reverting the stylistic origins section to the original. The genres in question (which is jazz fusion and "black rock") are considered redundant and inaccurate. Reading the source of these edits "Encyclopedia of African American Music", these genres were suggested as being influenced by funk AFTER the genre's conception. Jazz fusion was conceived way after Funk was conceived, and later on evolved into JAZZ FUNK. In addition, "black rock" is not only an inaccurate term, but a derogatory term used to discriminate sounds of music played by musicians such as Jimi Hendrix and The Chalmers Brothers. The term itself is another term used for Psychedelic Soul, and is thus a disambiguous term. I have multiple sources (including the original source used to support the claim, which is "Presence and pleasure: the funk grooves of James Brown and Parliament") that claims that Funk solely derived from Soul, rhythm and blues and jazz.
1. https://www.musicplus.in/the-origin-of-funk/ - The genre essentially evolved from the African-American soul, rhythm and blues, and jazz music of the mid-60s. It was characterised by a slower but strong rhythmic and percussive beat with a prominent, repetitive electric bassline and drum patterns. It gave more importance to the bass and less to the melody and chord progression, giving the music a hypnotic and danceable feel that went down well with audiences.
2. https://www.ops.org/Page/1830 (A scholarly article!) - "Funk is a type of music that originated in African American culture during the second half of the 20th century and mixed elements of soul, R&B, jazz and blues into a new rhythmic, danceable genre."
3. https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/james-brown-origins-of-funk/ (Coming from the creator of Funk himself, James Brown.) - "While sitting down with SPIN magazine in 1988, Brown shed some light on how his electric style of R&B eventually morphed into the bare bones sounds of funk that we know and love today. “Funk is the root of the blues,” Brown explains. “It’s soul, jazz, and gospel. Funk is coming down on the one. If it’s on the one, then it’s funky. But it’s hard for me to get people to understand that”."
4. https://www.scmp.com/yp/discover/entertainment/music/article/3072624/beginners-guide-funk-music-how-it-was-different - "The 1960s was a melting pot of musical innovation, with multiple genres forming, growing and progressing simultaneously in often completely different directions. Funk music started to emerge in black American communities, combining elements of established genres – such as soul, jazz and R’n’B – in a more rhythmic and dance-orientated way."
5. https://www.jazzhistorytree.com/funk/ (from music scholar Dakota Pippins) - "Funk is a music genre that originated in African American communities in the mid-1960s when African American musicians created a rhythmic, danceable new form of music through a mixture of soul, bebop/hard bop, and R & B."
When even the man who created it himself tells you what it is, it's time to change it back. StephenCezar15 ( talk) 04:00, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
"Your sources don't DIRECTLY indicate the description of the encyclopedia is wrong."Isebito, this isn't how Wikipedia works. One of the core policies of this site (per WP:RS) is that "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources." If a bit of information cannot be attested to with a source, it generally shouldn't be included. This is NOT to an affirmation of the converse - that information that cannot be refuted by sources SHOULD be included.
Wow. I've never seen so many split hairs before. How embarrassing for this musical style. A loose necktie ( talk) 00:00, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Should Funk be considered as a genre independent of Soul or Rhythm and Blues, or as a version of either? It does after all combine elements of soul, sycodelia, and true R&B with a unique element of it's own, which makes it confusingly appear as both a bridge between genres, and a new genre formed through this continuing cross polination. ~Jack D. 10:28UTC 8/2/05
I removed the above in the interest of NPOV. Tuf-Kat 04:21, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)
I gotta speak up an' add "Soul Finger" by the Bar-Kays to the list!! -- deeceevoice - June 22, 2004
-- mac_c 10:01, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Maybe I've missed the discussion since I'm pretty new to wikipedia, but why is there a link to the punk genre on the funk page?
For example, the Final Fight and Pilotwings 64 titles, as well as the non-videogame album Expert Knob Twiddlers by Mike Paradinas and Richard D James (track 1, "Mr. Frosty", and the other track, "The Sound of Beady Eyes" -- go look for said tracks on Soulseek or something). Was this music actually funk, or some 80's-electro-spinoff genre of funk? After all, that kind of (funk?) reminds me more of Isaac Hayes' character in Escape From New York, rather than of James Brown spinning around and screaming" "HEY!" to bouncy quarternote trumpets, like a cyberpunk-funk, if you will. That's the best I can explain what I'm inquiring about. Any more information on this (sub?)genre? I'm very interested -- I run like a Welshman 23:56, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This is from memory of one of Charles Chilton's radio programmes so it can not go into the article unless someone confirms it. The early jazz horn player Buddy Bolden performed at 'Funky Butt Hall'and named his theme song after it. At that time funky butt meant 'smelly arse'.
Butt still means arse but funky seems to mean almost anything you want it to. mikeL
Good stuff. Thanks. But it could use a little cleaning up. I don't have the time. Someone else wanna take a crack at it. deeceevoice 14:05, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"once formally defined as the smell of sexual intercourse" --- surprising and difficult to accept! Please give proper references: defined when? by whom? etc. and did it apply just locally somewhere? and what does 'formally' mean in this context?
Sexual intercourse in the social sense can have many smells scent, alcohol and so on. In the carnal sense it may have smells in other creatures but given normal hygene it is virtually odourless in humans.
The word funk has other, older, meanings associated with fear or depression which are still in common use.
Perhaps the connotations with smell have nothing to do with the original 'funk' but developed from the word 'fug'. mikeL
Sorry that us Brits have made such a mess of the American language, :-)
ChrisR, Newbury UK (04 SEP 05)
Transferred from " http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Talk:funk"
Please, let's take this out..
The Brazilian funk has *NO* relations with this funk.. Not even with electro music..
Brazilian Funk talk about sex, drugs and money with a very poor musicality.
Hey, there's some confusing language in the origin paragraph. The sentence reads: "At least as early as the 1930s, jazz songs carried titles such as Buddy Bolden's "Funky Butt." Bolden never played a note in public after 1907; this sentence can be read to say that Bolden was playing/recording in the 30s. Don't know the protocol for editing, and don't much feel like stepping on the author's toes. Just figured I would point this out. Thanks, essvee 206.81.102.145 15:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I've tried to add a section under recent developments on the New Funk scene. This could use its own page and expansion. Also the Deep Funk collectors scene could use a write up and/or page.
Everytime I've added a link related to deep funk, which involves thousands of people around the world, a user named Ezeu edits them out as spam. None of the sites I added are commercial in nature, and are the most relevant sites to this scene.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.128.95.47 ( talk • contribs)
I really must agree with the above. The "underground" Deep Funk scene is very significant and is based mainly on artists who recorded on American independant labels. As a result many of these records were often released in very small numbers and the artists never went on to become famous. However their rediscovery and reissue on 45's and compilations have greatly increased the ownership of such tracks. Some of these tracks are now considered classics of the genre. For example "Sexy Cofee Pot" by Tony Avlon and the Belairs, "Iron Leg" By Mickey and the Soul Generation, or "Baby Don't Cry" by The Third Guitar. I would add this section myself but I think it really should be written by somebody who specialises in collecting funk 45's.
Philster
16:33, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed the chiptune funk section. Chiptunes in general are quite far from funk. Funk is more closely related to Toe Jam & Earl game that was mentioned (that section can be returned in some form). (Also some scenemusicians such as Moby (not that famous Moby) and Nuke made funky MOD-music for Amiga). -- 128.214.205.5 09:35, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
According to some reviewers this book contains inaccuracies, especially amongst its album and track listings. Should this be mentioned in the 'Further reading' category? Deke42 21:25, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
h
Someone should write about go go on here, since it's one of two sub-genres listed, and doesn't even get a sentence. I would do it but don't know much about it. -- Awiseman 17:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I semiprotected the article. I'll add it to my watchlist. --- J.S ( T/ C) 23:58, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Let's try unprotecting--it's been quite a while, and the worst spam culprit is now on the blacklist. Let me know or post to WP:RFPP if it becomes a problem again. Chick Bowen 06:16, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The Pod Of Funk is a blog (no: it's a PODCAST, i.e it contains enclosed media files Deekdeekster 08:57, 13 March 2007 (UTC) DD.) and it does not pass the guidelines in WP:EL. Here are the points in the section of "Sites to normally avoid" that I believe apply to this page:
--- J.S ( T/ C/ WRE) 23:46, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
"Already, in late 1960s, many jazz musicians — among them Horace Silver, Herbie Hancock (with his Headhunters band), Grover Washington, Jr., and Cannonball Adderley, Les McCann and Eddie Harris — had begun to combine jazz and funk. Sometimes this approach is called "jazz-funk". Additionally, in the late 1960s work of Miles Davis (with girlfriend/wife Betty Davis) and Tony Williams helped to create Jazz fusion and influenced funk."
The Headhunters had not even been assembled until '73- It is erroneous to include the group as "late 1960's" pioneers of jazz funk. Of course, Herbie IS a seminal figure in the movement and his name is synonymous with the word 'funk-' but not with the Headhunters in the 60's.
More should be written here about Jazz-Funk. Wahwahwilliam 05:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
indeed.
Quoting the article : The word "funk", once defined in dictionaries as body odor or the smell of sexual intercourse, commonly was regarded as coarse or indecent. I found that pretty surprising, as I had never heard that before, so I did some quick research online, and I've seen several different meanings for the word, including cowardly, but never that one. Even the very few websites that seemed to be using the word in that way didn't associate it with body odor. I wish there were sources for that, perhaps saying which dictionary defines funk that way. Alessiasakura 13:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I assume the funk styles article relates here. Paul foord ( talk) 02:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Herb Bombgarden and the Little Yogurts should be added to the list of funk bands. They are very popular in Finland but no one knows about them elsewhere. I went back there this summer and watched a show and it took my breath away
That's far better! Since the last time I looked, the New Funk/ Deep Funk addition, plus that of several other users has greatly improved the article which is now looking cosiderably more accurate. It is a good idea to have a separate page for Deep Funk.
As someone who knows very little about this subject and has just stumbled across these pages i can't help noticing the similarity of content between a lot of the pages within this genre. Specifically Funk rock has identical paragraphs. Could do with a good tidy up, but then couldn't everything... :s extraordinary ( talk) 15:31, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
"Funk music is characterized by intensely syncopated, danceable rhythms with the emphasis falling heavily on the first beat of every measure". A syncopated rhythm, according to the backbeat article has emphasis on beats 2 and 4, so one wonders why the rhythm would have heavy emphasis on the first beat of every measure. One of these articles is wrong. And would a source kill anybody?-- I'll bring the food ( Talk - Contribs - My Watchlist) 19:57, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Re: the dispute above, here are a few relevant passages from some authoritative sources with citations.
Here's the beginning of the genre page on funk from the All Music Guide (with a link at the end):
Named after a slang word for "stink," funk was indeed the rawest, most primal form of R&B, surpassing even Southern soul in terms of earthiness. It was also the least structured, often stretching out into extended jams, and the most Africanized, built on dynamic, highly syncopated polyrhythms. [2]
Here's the first paragraph of the article on funk in Grove Music Online, the online version of the
Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians:
An African-American popular music style. It features syncopated interlocking rhythm patterns based on straight quaver and semiquaver subdivisions, a vocal style drawn from soul music, extended vamps based on a single and often complex harmony, strong emphasis on the bass line, and lyrics with frequent spiritual themes and social commentary. The use of the term for a musical style inverts the negative colloquial meaning of strong aromas, particularly of a bodily and sexual nature.
(David Brackett: 'Funk', Grove Music Online ed. L. Macy (Accessed 1 March 2007), http://www.grovemusic.com) (This is the citation format the Dictionary specifically requests.)
A few sentences later in the same article:
He [James Brown] refined his approach in Cold Sweat (1967) by substituting open-ended vamps based on a single harmony for harmonic progressions, and by accenting strongly the first beat of every or every other 4/4 bar, freeing the instruments to play any number of syncopated patterns in which the beats are implied rather than stated.
And here's most of the first paragraph from the Grove entry on syncopation:
The regular shifting of each beat in a measured pattern by the same amount ahead of or behind its normal position in that pattern; in polyphonic textures this may occur in some or all of the parts. Syncopation usually occurs in lines in which the strong beats receive no articulation. This means either that they are silent, as in ex.1 (in this connection, see also Off-beat), or that each note is articulated on a weak beat (or between two beats) and tied over to the next beat, as in ex.2. Because any syncopated musical line can be perceived as contrary to the pulse established by the organization of the music into bars, syncopation is related to, and sometimes used as a synonym for, Cross-accent, Agogic accent and Cross-rhythm.
('Syncopation', Grove Music Online ed. L. Macy (Accessed 1 March 2007), http://www.grovemusic.com)
I hope this is helpful in resolving the issue. InnocuousPseudonym 02:40, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I think people should avoid literally interpreting things outside of context. Hyacinth ( talk) 23:23, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
The first artist to combine funk with psychedelic rock were the Beck/Page era Yardbirds, on Happenings Ten Years Time Ago. Jimi Hendrix's recorded contribution came later. I have not been able to find a source, but I urge anyone who doubts me to listen to the song, which was released in October 1966. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.84.130.194 ( talk) 07:15, June 24, 2008
A good article let down by those so called "funk categories" towards that end which are laden with inaccuracies and of such dubious significance/truth that they undermine the whole article. Why does the the obsession with rock persist to the extent that it even makes an irrelevant apperance in an article about funk music? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
217.42.196.229 (
talk)
18:52, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Re my above comment: more specifically I mean "funkcore"/"punkfunk" etc - these are of such miniscule importance/notifiability/significance that what the hellare they doing clogging up a generally good article like this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.196.229 ( talk) 18:57, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Intro says "Funk is an American musical style that originated in the mid- to late-1960s when African American musicians blended soul music, soul jazz and R&B into a rhythmic, danceable new form of music", which suggests that funk is a fusion genre. That's not the case. As we all know funk is simply a harder and more complex version of soul (probably with influenced from jazz and acid rock). And mentioning R&B as on of the sources makes no sense, as funk and soul already are sub-genres of R&B. Netrat_msk ( talk) 17:39, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
The forgotten thing is Drum and bass —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.101.73.105 ( talk) 13:02, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
The use of the imperfect tense throughout this article tends to give the impression that funk is defunct (sorry for the bad pun). Surely funk is alive and kicikin'? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.89.33.37 ( talk) 22:40, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
The statement in the subgenre discussion about Earth Wind and Fire being disco-influenced should be questioned since their "funk sound" was prevalent years before disco. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Freejazzman58 ( talk • contribs) 02:21, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
In the 2nd line the bar has 5 quarters which doesn't make sense to me. Can anyone explain or is it just wrong? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.177.214.95 ( talk) 07:39, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
I deleted this from the article:
That's totally false. Indeed, if nothing else, Billboard Magazine indicates that Stevie Wonder had the following singles that made it to #1 on the U.S. singles chart from 1974 to 1977 (at least one of which is classic "funk"):
1. You Haven't Done Nothin (Tamla Records); hit the Top 40 on August 17, 1974; was on the chart for 14 weeks, including one week at #1.
2. I Wish (Stevie Wonder song) (Tamla Records); hit the Top 40 on December 4, 1976; was on the chart for 15 weeks, including one week at #1. This record is essential "funk".
3. Sir Duke (Tamla Records); hit the Top 40 on April 16, 1977; was on the chart for 13 weeks, including three weeks at #1.
Yours, Famspear ( talk) 03:00, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
I think it might be a god idea to include hip hop in the list of funk-derivatives. Hip-Hop originated out of MCs not so much rapping but hyping the crowd up for the real star: the DJ, who would play breakbeats from funk songs. Even now funk samples are prevalent in Hip Hop and the drum and bass programming of modern hip hop is often very reminiscent of Funk rhythmically (not too mention the lack of harmonic progression). This is partially adressed in the G-Funk section, but I think it's worth expanding upon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.29.46.79 ( talk) 02:35, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
I've reverted an edit that changed "African Americans" in the opening sentence to "blacks". Being neither black nor American, I'm not intimately familiar with the current connotations of either term - I mostly reverted it for the loss of geographical information. If "black Americans" is more neutral, I'd be happy with that too. Ben Ram 11:22, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Bands like "Kriss Kross" are misperceived as "rap," or "R&B" when really they are truly funk. It's really just a style difference, but an important one to distinguish between. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.170.97.171 ( talk) 08:43, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
If you want to get technical AFricans in Africa were doing funk before anyone else anyway. European explores even noted the similarities between blues , and negro spirituals back in the 17, and 18 hundreds.
Again this is just another white washing of history. Any time a black person or African creates something, people try to find ways to take the credit away. The same can be said for any music creation by black people. Blacks start it, everyone gets mad, and wants to find a way to say they created it. The first drums were in africa, the first music was in africa. No historian would even dispute that. So it all goes back to Africa anyway. We can go that rout if there are more people like this poster above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 ( talk • contribs) 23:47, 6 December 2010 (UTC) ~Darkman1984~
Why bring race into it at all? Anyone who views a picture of James Brown can see the tint of his skin. Does the Wikipedia entry on Opera say it was pioneered by white people? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jive Dadson ( talk • contribs) 03:18, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
I strongly suggest that a section be devoted to "Blue Note" style funk. I knew "funk" to be the music of Gene Ammons, Jimmy Smith, Blue Mitchell, Lee Morgan, Horace Silver, Lou Donaldson, et al, decades before I ever heard the term applied to James Brown and cohort. I was a disc jockey in the late 60's, early 70's. I played lots of music by James Brown et al, but I never heard "funk" applied to it. The Blue Note compendium of "Funk and Blues" begins with music recorded in 1954. The Wikipedia disambiguation page does have a link to the 1957 Gene Ammons album "Funky," but that's all there is. Jive Dadson ( talk) 23:25, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 2 external links on
Funk. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 09:25, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
I'm probably as guilty as everyone else here, but this article is becoming farcical. It's been written by so many people, none of whom can even agree on exactly what 'funk' is, that it no longer makes any kind of logical sense.
Apparently funk is based upon Motown and one of its major practitioners was Curtis Mayfield? Illogical Captain, since the careers of Mayfield and the Motown label ran concurrently. Furthermore some later Motown artists cite Mayfield as an influence. It's also polyrhythmic and another major practitioner is Prince. Can anyone point me to a single Prince song with polyrhythmic accompaniment? Didn't think so. Funkadelic aren't that hot on the polyrhythm front either. Ah, but of course you have to listen to the records to hear that and under the rules listening to the records isn't allowed, you have to find a book written by someone else who's listened to them...
Maybe someone should put a disclaimer on all musical entries stating that the article, almost by default, will contain opinion, since there's very little else written about the subject. Deke42 ( talk) 01:48, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
If you want to get technical AFricans in Africa were doing funk before anyone else anyway. European explores even noted the similarities between blues , and negro spirituals back in the 17, and 18 hundreds.
Again this is just another white washing of history. Any time a black person or African creates something, people try to find ways to take the credit away. The same can be said for any music creation by black people. Blacks start it, everyone gets mad, and wants to find a way to say they created it. The first drums were in africa, the first music was in africa. No historian would even dispute that. So it all goes back to Africa anyway. We can go that rout if there are more people like this poster above.
Spare your black supremacist comments for another audience please! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.89.33.37 ( talk) 22:45, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Funk. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 09:20, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
There is a discussion taking place about whether templates (primarily infoboxes) for funk and closely related genres should use a different color than the orange currently used for soul music, at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music/Music genres task force/Colours#Should Funk be a different colour than Soul? Life of Tau 20:53, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
Hi. Sorry for not discussing this with you further. The reason why I edited the info box was because Funk was not borne from psychedelia. When it was created, it was soul music heavily rooted in jazz with some rhythm and blues influences. The psychedelia part came as a secondary influence later on. There are pages that deal with psychedelia's influence on funk, such as psychedelic funk and P-funk. Another edit I made was adding a major part that you guys left out when it comes to the funk guitar. Jimmy Nolen's technique known as the "chicken scratch" (if you don't know what that is, then listen to Papa's Got a Brand New Bag) is an important ingredient to funk. The "wah-wah" guitar is more prominent in psychedelic rock than it is funk. So that's the bold edit that I made. My apologies that it caused a big fuss. Thank you! StephenCezar15 ( talk)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 20:06, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
At least one artist listed is not noteworthy and appears to have vandalized the page to advertise for herself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.93.161.94 ( talk) 11:52, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 21:27, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
This section relies almost entirely on a single source, and in any case I am skeptical of Wikpedia copying the conclusions of such litcritty work. You'd get the impre≥≥ssion from the section that funk could only be concerned with politics! -- Eldomtom2 ( talk) 22:37, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
"Soul music with a greater emphasis on the beats and rhythms of an arrangement, influences from rhythm and blues and jazz"
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I am reverting the stylistic origins section to the original. The genres in question (which is jazz fusion and "black rock") are considered redundant and inaccurate. Reading the source of these edits "Encyclopedia of African American Music", these genres were suggested as being influenced by funk AFTER the genre's conception. Jazz fusion was conceived way after Funk was conceived, and later on evolved into JAZZ FUNK. In addition, "black rock" is not only an inaccurate term, but a derogatory term used to discriminate sounds of music played by musicians such as Jimi Hendrix and The Chalmers Brothers. The term itself is another term used for Psychedelic Soul, and is thus a disambiguous term. I have multiple sources (including the original source used to support the claim, which is "Presence and pleasure: the funk grooves of James Brown and Parliament") that claims that Funk solely derived from Soul, rhythm and blues and jazz.
1. https://www.musicplus.in/the-origin-of-funk/ - The genre essentially evolved from the African-American soul, rhythm and blues, and jazz music of the mid-60s. It was characterised by a slower but strong rhythmic and percussive beat with a prominent, repetitive electric bassline and drum patterns. It gave more importance to the bass and less to the melody and chord progression, giving the music a hypnotic and danceable feel that went down well with audiences.
2. https://www.ops.org/Page/1830 (A scholarly article!) - "Funk is a type of music that originated in African American culture during the second half of the 20th century and mixed elements of soul, R&B, jazz and blues into a new rhythmic, danceable genre."
3. https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/james-brown-origins-of-funk/ (Coming from the creator of Funk himself, James Brown.) - "While sitting down with SPIN magazine in 1988, Brown shed some light on how his electric style of R&B eventually morphed into the bare bones sounds of funk that we know and love today. “Funk is the root of the blues,” Brown explains. “It’s soul, jazz, and gospel. Funk is coming down on the one. If it’s on the one, then it’s funky. But it’s hard for me to get people to understand that”."
4. https://www.scmp.com/yp/discover/entertainment/music/article/3072624/beginners-guide-funk-music-how-it-was-different - "The 1960s was a melting pot of musical innovation, with multiple genres forming, growing and progressing simultaneously in often completely different directions. Funk music started to emerge in black American communities, combining elements of established genres – such as soul, jazz and R’n’B – in a more rhythmic and dance-orientated way."
5. https://www.jazzhistorytree.com/funk/ (from music scholar Dakota Pippins) - "Funk is a music genre that originated in African American communities in the mid-1960s when African American musicians created a rhythmic, danceable new form of music through a mixture of soul, bebop/hard bop, and R & B."
When even the man who created it himself tells you what it is, it's time to change it back. StephenCezar15 ( talk) 04:00, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
"Your sources don't DIRECTLY indicate the description of the encyclopedia is wrong."Isebito, this isn't how Wikipedia works. One of the core policies of this site (per WP:RS) is that "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources." If a bit of information cannot be attested to with a source, it generally shouldn't be included. This is NOT to an affirmation of the converse - that information that cannot be refuted by sources SHOULD be included.
Wow. I've never seen so many split hairs before. How embarrassing for this musical style. A loose necktie ( talk) 00:00, 20 September 2022 (UTC)