This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Sandy, UT? Is that real? Warren Jeffs, prophet lives in CC, AZ. Hawstom 09:34, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)
The Jeff compound was located at the mouth of Big Cottonwood Canyon in Sandy, UT until the family left for CC. During 1970's Warren and his siblings attended local public schools. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:205.188.208.10 ( talk • contribs) 07:27, 2004 Feb 4
Posted
as entire text of Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter (sic: no "Day Saints" at end):
Placed on
Wikipedia:Cleanup Jan 18, and then blanked (after moving text here) and put on
VfD. Recommend those more familiar w/ the subject evaluate, NPOV, and move into article as needed.
--
Jerzy 19:12, 2004 Jan 18 (UTC)
For the record, back in early '04 neither moves nor deletions were documented as they are now, and i doubt there was such a thing as a history merge, unless via labor-intensive intervention by a developer. I was presumably confused in describing a "renam[ing]". My best guess -- w/o having looked into old revisions on the very busy pages VFD (forerunner to AfD) and CU -- is that
--
Jerzy•
t
22:48, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Should there be any mention of the increased public attention given this sect after Jon Krakauer published Under the Banner of Heaven? That book seems to have sold well, and I imagine it had some impact on this group -- is there anything verifiable that would be worth noting about that here? Jwrosenzweig 21:04, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
CBC website has a longer story about Canadian colony at Bountiful from January 2003 [1] and a recent story about police investigating abuse allegation at the colony [2].
Robert1947 ( talk · contribs) changed
to read
and summarized that edit with
which AFAI can see could be a reason for some other edit, but is nonsense in this context: it's not an "LDS perspective" that FLDS claims "roots" in the guy who led the LDS until he died. Rather, that seems objectively to be part of the FLDS's beliefs.
I am restoring the previous rev'n's mention of
John Taylor, which is part of the narrative of their PoV that their
schism represents faithfulness to LDS principles that the LDS abandoned by caving to secular pressure.
Also, in either case, the lk www.childbrides.org/history_SLTrib_plig_throughout_history.html has become a page (that suggests the content has been purged because it was a copyvio), which is why it has to change to a fact tag or be replaced.
As far as the rest goes, i think both wordings are kind of muddy. Here's what i find an improvement over both:
Unfortunately, i don't know what ground is covered by the childbrides.org ref. (It's not on Wayback Machine either.) The ref i've inserted for the time being is, overall, a criticism of FLDS, but what i've drawn from it sounds likely to coincide with FLDS accounts -- except that i've left out the PoV language they are likely to prefer. But perhaps there are FLDS sources that would confirm that; equivalent refs from both sides could show that these bare facts are not in dispute.
--
Jerzy•
t
06:29, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I removed
from the "Further reading" section. I doubt an anonymous blogger, unendorsed by any sponsor, is enuf of a reliable info source to be listed there. It may, on the other hand, be a good source to editors, of things worth looking for verification of. In particular, it seems to quote heavily some kind of series in "WSJ", which (shall i say) doesn't rule out its being the
Wall Street Journal. (Or
Wilbur's Second-hand Junk.)
BTW, it's a 6-issue old blog that's attracted 4 comments from 3 (or fewer) people. I won't complain if someone removes it from even this talk page as spam.
--
Jerzy•
t 02:06 &
11:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm no grammar wizard but there's an inconsistency in the article that needs to be fixed. What is the proper way to write these: FLDS Church vs. FLDS church, or alternately LDS Church vs. LDS church. I'm mystified as to the correct capitalization here, the article extensively uses both...well actually it's typically FLDS church and LDS Church. It could be my own doing but please pipe up you grammar geeks, we need to know what's correct! Twunchy ( talk) 15:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
If this article attempts to support the claim that religious persecution is not occurring here, then it will need to address these questions:
Under what pretext were authorities spying on the ranch and taking aerial photographs prior to the raid?
How is it that the main victim, ‘Sarah,’ went to a hospital for broken ribs in a domestic dispute that didn’t result in the hospital calling the police?
How is it that the main suspect, Dale Evans Barlow, has been living in Arizona for the last 31 years?
Why do none of the cell towers around the ranch have a record of a cell phone call occurring for the time and duration of the distress call?
How were the authorities able to mount such a huge raid on such short notice?
Why would authorities overreact in sending in men in full combat gear with assault rifles and armored personnel carriers against such a passive group?
Why did the police confiscate cameras and pictures FLDS members took of the raid?
Why is it that the First Baptist Church of Eldorado Texas provided busses to carry off the children?
Why did police want to break into and confiscate belongings in locked dressers?
Why did authorities lie to the mothers?
Why did authorities take cell phones from the mothers?
Why is guilt by association applied to this group and not to more legitimate cases of child abuse perpetrated by Catholic priests?
Is it not the souls of these children that Texas officials are trying to protect? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
75.172.85.26 (
talk)
00:23, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Here are some answeres to all of your questions.
User talk:Miajmw Miagirljmw14 ( talk) 17:35, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
75.172.85.26,
Despite the extent of sexual child abuse by Catholic clergy (What of Anglican clergy? Neglect to mention high incidence of similar abuse of children by Anglican clergy in your "argument" and you demonstrate what I suspect is either ignorance or prejudice against Catholics in general, i.e. what was it, Religious Persecution), Catholic moral theology and clergy and laity alike DO NOT foster a sick and paedophiliac culture wherein underage girls are little more than sociliased livestock for adult males. Although misogyny indubitably infects the minds of religious leaders the world over, this cult season it with a perverse, ironically pornographic, hypermasculine paedophilia which is sociopathic - AT LEAST. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.18.34.5 ( talk) 03:32, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Anyone got an pics of those beautiful dresses and hairstyles of the women of the FLDS? Or anyone know where to buy those in the local wal-mart? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.68.22.207 ( talk) 04:45, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
(The following is chiefly excerpted from commentary above.) External links are many. Should readers follow the link to Banking on Heaven, they'll quickly size up it's journalistic expose by Jon Kraukaeur and Ruth Cooke, featuring Elaine Jeffs, Carolyn Jessop, and Penny Peterson; should they click over to Rick Ross Institute, that they're at a Christian apologetic anti-heresy site; and should they end up at FLDS 101, that they're at an anon blog by a highly informed partisan giving his take, albeit much more dispassionately in many aspects than either of the two alternate sources I just mentioned.
Anyways, a fundamentalist Latter Day Saint (at least generically by culture and or belief, although obviously not currently beholden to the Jeffs-led, specifically FLDS faith) is in the process of blogging a veritable compendium of FLDS doctrines and beliefs known as FLDS 101, blogging under the psuedonym Berry Knoll, in which he quotes extensively from the lectures of Warren Steed Jeffs and from excerpts of interviews with current and former members of the polygamous splinter group. (Insiders would recognize Berry Knoll as the "juniper-covered hill south of town" (Colorado City, Arizona/Hildale, Utah...) "said to be the site for the temple the polygamous church had hoped to construct...." one day.")
Banking on Heaven: "In the FLDS (Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints), women are chattel and young boys are kicked out so older polygamous men can have sex with young girls. Everybody does what they’re told, because the prophet, Warren Jeffs, is God [...]]"
FLDS 101: "The FLDS 'yearn for Zion,' to live in a society free from sin and contention, where all things are held in common without jealousy -- a heaven on earth. As the FLDS leadership continued to prophesy that the end of the world was quickly approaching, they taught the people that wickedness needed to be purged from their society. Jeffs taught, 'One or two covenant breakers can cause the Lord to stop blessing this people. As long as we have evil doers among us, the Lord's blessings will be withheld. Zion must be pure. We can't have evil people among the priesthood for the Lord to appear and bless us like He would like to. Be this a warning.' (W.S.J. 12/26/95) Jeffs laid the doctrinal groundwork to justify a cleansing of the FLDS. Their theology teaches that an ancient city lead by a prophet named Enoch, was taken up into heaven because of their righteousness. The FLDS believe they can be taken up too as the wicked world is destroyed."
[... ... "Yearning for Zion," a hymn by W.S. Jeffs; 3rd verse]:
Imagine the people of Enoch of old, trained in the order of heaven/ A beautiful city the Lord called his own and forever made his abode/ Coming to join with the Zion on earth when finally the earth finds its rest/ A kingdom established in celestial laws, a people the Lord can accept/ A New Jerusalem it will be, a land of refuge, a city of peace [ . . . ].
— Justmeherenow ( ) 00:22, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
'
What the guidelines say should be linked includes
[... ...s]ites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks) or other reasons.
Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as reviews and interviews.
Links to be considered [include ... ...s]ites which fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources.
No, you've firmly established this isn't about the article, but about some need of yours to spam Wikipedia with this blog. There are no sources because the blog is important to no one but you. Your personal interest in the blog does not make it noteworthy. -- Blechnic ( talk) 08:45, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
A major restructuring proposal for all polygamy articles related to Mormonism has been made at Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr. and polygamy#Series and Restructuring proposal. Please visit and give your two cents. -- Descartes1979 ( talk) 04:54, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be at least some description of their doctrine and beliefs? What are their "inspired texts" if any, and religious practices? The article understandably focuses on their reasons for being noticed, but some balancing should be added. If they are non-evangelical and don't reveal much detail to outsiders, then at least a statement of such could be added. Carltonh 21:41, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Tom, lets retain a semblance of logic here. When the law is broken, it should be reported as broken. For instance, the murder page does not mention that many people find a fulfilling lifestyle in serial killing, and likewise the Holocaust page doesn't say that some concentration camps were extremely loving, warm and fuzzy environments. When you force a 14 year old to marry you illegally, the law is violated, end of story. There is nothing warm or fuzzy about that fact. 68.60.53.141 ( talk) 08:33, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Aren't the new headquarters now in Eldorado, Texas? Why does the article still say it's in Hildale, Utah? 69.120.98.246 ( talk) 14:39, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
The distinctive doctrines section was changed by 216.83.150.243 from my original "Critics claim that Warren Jeffs has indicated his desire to resurrect the 19th-Century Mormon doctrine of ' blood atonement'...." to "...has indicated his desire to institute the doctrine...."
I believe that the original should stand. This was originally a Mormon doctrine taught by leaders of the church, as stated in the blood atonement article. I don't see a reason to not point out that fact. The word "institute" implies that Jeffs has come up with an entirely new doctrine, which is not true. Here's a quote from the intro to that article:
I don't want to revert this if there is some legitimate reason to go with the new wording, but I can't see any. Mycota 05:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
This was the official doctrine and policy of the church when Joseph Smith was running it, it was the official doctrine and policy when Brigham Young was running it, and it remains the official doctrine and policy today. It was the doctrine and policy when various leaders of the early church are alleged to have taught otherwise; and any that may have so taught did so in error and without authority. To claim that this “blood atonement” was ever an actual practice or teaching of the genuine Mormon church is dishonest and inaccurate. Bob Blaylock ( talk) 09:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)“We believe that all religious societies have a right to deal with their members for disorderly conduct, according to the rules and regulations of such societies; provided that such dealings be for fellowship and good standing; but we do not believe that any religious society has authority to try men on the right of property or life, to take from them this world’s goods, or to put them in jeopardy of either life or limb, or to inflict any physical punishment upon them. They can only excommunicate them from their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship.”
"Richter also claims that he was asked to design a thermostat for a high-temperature furnace that would be capable of destroying DNA evidence if such "atonements" were to take place"
The list over here is in violation of both WP:EL and WP:SEH. Wikipedia does not advertize. While also seeking to cut down links, 2 documentaries become redundant. We dont need to advertize to each film maker's views. In that interest I have removed the link that seems to have less. For the "Audio clips reveal..." I removed the POV language as that is not for Wikipedia to ascertain, the individual listener can decide.
In the media/news articles part: firstly, web logs are not reliable sources to list here, and, secondly, the articles don't provide a "unique resource" to the article. It may be a good source but it is better as a citation within the article.
Most importantly, a cursory glance at the guidelines will show "Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links, or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links." Lihaas ( talk) 18:12, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
I have added a new section, that just contains a link ot the main article but I think there should be a brief synopsis here in the article. Please add to it if you have the time or knowledge. Twunchy ( talk) 16:10, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Sandy, UT? Is that real? Warren Jeffs, prophet lives in CC, AZ. Hawstom 09:34, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)
The Jeff compound was located at the mouth of Big Cottonwood Canyon in Sandy, UT until the family left for CC. During 1970's Warren and his siblings attended local public schools. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:205.188.208.10 ( talk • contribs) 07:27, 2004 Feb 4
Posted
as entire text of Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter (sic: no "Day Saints" at end):
Placed on
Wikipedia:Cleanup Jan 18, and then blanked (after moving text here) and put on
VfD. Recommend those more familiar w/ the subject evaluate, NPOV, and move into article as needed.
--
Jerzy 19:12, 2004 Jan 18 (UTC)
For the record, back in early '04 neither moves nor deletions were documented as they are now, and i doubt there was such a thing as a history merge, unless via labor-intensive intervention by a developer. I was presumably confused in describing a "renam[ing]". My best guess -- w/o having looked into old revisions on the very busy pages VFD (forerunner to AfD) and CU -- is that
--
Jerzy•
t
22:48, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Should there be any mention of the increased public attention given this sect after Jon Krakauer published Under the Banner of Heaven? That book seems to have sold well, and I imagine it had some impact on this group -- is there anything verifiable that would be worth noting about that here? Jwrosenzweig 21:04, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
CBC website has a longer story about Canadian colony at Bountiful from January 2003 [1] and a recent story about police investigating abuse allegation at the colony [2].
Robert1947 ( talk · contribs) changed
to read
and summarized that edit with
which AFAI can see could be a reason for some other edit, but is nonsense in this context: it's not an "LDS perspective" that FLDS claims "roots" in the guy who led the LDS until he died. Rather, that seems objectively to be part of the FLDS's beliefs.
I am restoring the previous rev'n's mention of
John Taylor, which is part of the narrative of their PoV that their
schism represents faithfulness to LDS principles that the LDS abandoned by caving to secular pressure.
Also, in either case, the lk www.childbrides.org/history_SLTrib_plig_throughout_history.html has become a page (that suggests the content has been purged because it was a copyvio), which is why it has to change to a fact tag or be replaced.
As far as the rest goes, i think both wordings are kind of muddy. Here's what i find an improvement over both:
Unfortunately, i don't know what ground is covered by the childbrides.org ref. (It's not on Wayback Machine either.) The ref i've inserted for the time being is, overall, a criticism of FLDS, but what i've drawn from it sounds likely to coincide with FLDS accounts -- except that i've left out the PoV language they are likely to prefer. But perhaps there are FLDS sources that would confirm that; equivalent refs from both sides could show that these bare facts are not in dispute.
--
Jerzy•
t
06:29, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I removed
from the "Further reading" section. I doubt an anonymous blogger, unendorsed by any sponsor, is enuf of a reliable info source to be listed there. It may, on the other hand, be a good source to editors, of things worth looking for verification of. In particular, it seems to quote heavily some kind of series in "WSJ", which (shall i say) doesn't rule out its being the
Wall Street Journal. (Or
Wilbur's Second-hand Junk.)
BTW, it's a 6-issue old blog that's attracted 4 comments from 3 (or fewer) people. I won't complain if someone removes it from even this talk page as spam.
--
Jerzy•
t 02:06 &
11:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm no grammar wizard but there's an inconsistency in the article that needs to be fixed. What is the proper way to write these: FLDS Church vs. FLDS church, or alternately LDS Church vs. LDS church. I'm mystified as to the correct capitalization here, the article extensively uses both...well actually it's typically FLDS church and LDS Church. It could be my own doing but please pipe up you grammar geeks, we need to know what's correct! Twunchy ( talk) 15:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
If this article attempts to support the claim that religious persecution is not occurring here, then it will need to address these questions:
Under what pretext were authorities spying on the ranch and taking aerial photographs prior to the raid?
How is it that the main victim, ‘Sarah,’ went to a hospital for broken ribs in a domestic dispute that didn’t result in the hospital calling the police?
How is it that the main suspect, Dale Evans Barlow, has been living in Arizona for the last 31 years?
Why do none of the cell towers around the ranch have a record of a cell phone call occurring for the time and duration of the distress call?
How were the authorities able to mount such a huge raid on such short notice?
Why would authorities overreact in sending in men in full combat gear with assault rifles and armored personnel carriers against such a passive group?
Why did the police confiscate cameras and pictures FLDS members took of the raid?
Why is it that the First Baptist Church of Eldorado Texas provided busses to carry off the children?
Why did police want to break into and confiscate belongings in locked dressers?
Why did authorities lie to the mothers?
Why did authorities take cell phones from the mothers?
Why is guilt by association applied to this group and not to more legitimate cases of child abuse perpetrated by Catholic priests?
Is it not the souls of these children that Texas officials are trying to protect? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
75.172.85.26 (
talk)
00:23, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Here are some answeres to all of your questions.
User talk:Miajmw Miagirljmw14 ( talk) 17:35, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
75.172.85.26,
Despite the extent of sexual child abuse by Catholic clergy (What of Anglican clergy? Neglect to mention high incidence of similar abuse of children by Anglican clergy in your "argument" and you demonstrate what I suspect is either ignorance or prejudice against Catholics in general, i.e. what was it, Religious Persecution), Catholic moral theology and clergy and laity alike DO NOT foster a sick and paedophiliac culture wherein underage girls are little more than sociliased livestock for adult males. Although misogyny indubitably infects the minds of religious leaders the world over, this cult season it with a perverse, ironically pornographic, hypermasculine paedophilia which is sociopathic - AT LEAST. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.18.34.5 ( talk) 03:32, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Anyone got an pics of those beautiful dresses and hairstyles of the women of the FLDS? Or anyone know where to buy those in the local wal-mart? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.68.22.207 ( talk) 04:45, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
(The following is chiefly excerpted from commentary above.) External links are many. Should readers follow the link to Banking on Heaven, they'll quickly size up it's journalistic expose by Jon Kraukaeur and Ruth Cooke, featuring Elaine Jeffs, Carolyn Jessop, and Penny Peterson; should they click over to Rick Ross Institute, that they're at a Christian apologetic anti-heresy site; and should they end up at FLDS 101, that they're at an anon blog by a highly informed partisan giving his take, albeit much more dispassionately in many aspects than either of the two alternate sources I just mentioned.
Anyways, a fundamentalist Latter Day Saint (at least generically by culture and or belief, although obviously not currently beholden to the Jeffs-led, specifically FLDS faith) is in the process of blogging a veritable compendium of FLDS doctrines and beliefs known as FLDS 101, blogging under the psuedonym Berry Knoll, in which he quotes extensively from the lectures of Warren Steed Jeffs and from excerpts of interviews with current and former members of the polygamous splinter group. (Insiders would recognize Berry Knoll as the "juniper-covered hill south of town" (Colorado City, Arizona/Hildale, Utah...) "said to be the site for the temple the polygamous church had hoped to construct...." one day.")
Banking on Heaven: "In the FLDS (Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints), women are chattel and young boys are kicked out so older polygamous men can have sex with young girls. Everybody does what they’re told, because the prophet, Warren Jeffs, is God [...]]"
FLDS 101: "The FLDS 'yearn for Zion,' to live in a society free from sin and contention, where all things are held in common without jealousy -- a heaven on earth. As the FLDS leadership continued to prophesy that the end of the world was quickly approaching, they taught the people that wickedness needed to be purged from their society. Jeffs taught, 'One or two covenant breakers can cause the Lord to stop blessing this people. As long as we have evil doers among us, the Lord's blessings will be withheld. Zion must be pure. We can't have evil people among the priesthood for the Lord to appear and bless us like He would like to. Be this a warning.' (W.S.J. 12/26/95) Jeffs laid the doctrinal groundwork to justify a cleansing of the FLDS. Their theology teaches that an ancient city lead by a prophet named Enoch, was taken up into heaven because of their righteousness. The FLDS believe they can be taken up too as the wicked world is destroyed."
[... ... "Yearning for Zion," a hymn by W.S. Jeffs; 3rd verse]:
Imagine the people of Enoch of old, trained in the order of heaven/ A beautiful city the Lord called his own and forever made his abode/ Coming to join with the Zion on earth when finally the earth finds its rest/ A kingdom established in celestial laws, a people the Lord can accept/ A New Jerusalem it will be, a land of refuge, a city of peace [ . . . ].
— Justmeherenow ( ) 00:22, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
'
What the guidelines say should be linked includes
[... ...s]ites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks) or other reasons.
Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as reviews and interviews.
Links to be considered [include ... ...s]ites which fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources.
No, you've firmly established this isn't about the article, but about some need of yours to spam Wikipedia with this blog. There are no sources because the blog is important to no one but you. Your personal interest in the blog does not make it noteworthy. -- Blechnic ( talk) 08:45, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
A major restructuring proposal for all polygamy articles related to Mormonism has been made at Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr. and polygamy#Series and Restructuring proposal. Please visit and give your two cents. -- Descartes1979 ( talk) 04:54, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be at least some description of their doctrine and beliefs? What are their "inspired texts" if any, and religious practices? The article understandably focuses on their reasons for being noticed, but some balancing should be added. If they are non-evangelical and don't reveal much detail to outsiders, then at least a statement of such could be added. Carltonh 21:41, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Tom, lets retain a semblance of logic here. When the law is broken, it should be reported as broken. For instance, the murder page does not mention that many people find a fulfilling lifestyle in serial killing, and likewise the Holocaust page doesn't say that some concentration camps were extremely loving, warm and fuzzy environments. When you force a 14 year old to marry you illegally, the law is violated, end of story. There is nothing warm or fuzzy about that fact. 68.60.53.141 ( talk) 08:33, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Aren't the new headquarters now in Eldorado, Texas? Why does the article still say it's in Hildale, Utah? 69.120.98.246 ( talk) 14:39, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
The distinctive doctrines section was changed by 216.83.150.243 from my original "Critics claim that Warren Jeffs has indicated his desire to resurrect the 19th-Century Mormon doctrine of ' blood atonement'...." to "...has indicated his desire to institute the doctrine...."
I believe that the original should stand. This was originally a Mormon doctrine taught by leaders of the church, as stated in the blood atonement article. I don't see a reason to not point out that fact. The word "institute" implies that Jeffs has come up with an entirely new doctrine, which is not true. Here's a quote from the intro to that article:
I don't want to revert this if there is some legitimate reason to go with the new wording, but I can't see any. Mycota 05:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
This was the official doctrine and policy of the church when Joseph Smith was running it, it was the official doctrine and policy when Brigham Young was running it, and it remains the official doctrine and policy today. It was the doctrine and policy when various leaders of the early church are alleged to have taught otherwise; and any that may have so taught did so in error and without authority. To claim that this “blood atonement” was ever an actual practice or teaching of the genuine Mormon church is dishonest and inaccurate. Bob Blaylock ( talk) 09:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)“We believe that all religious societies have a right to deal with their members for disorderly conduct, according to the rules and regulations of such societies; provided that such dealings be for fellowship and good standing; but we do not believe that any religious society has authority to try men on the right of property or life, to take from them this world’s goods, or to put them in jeopardy of either life or limb, or to inflict any physical punishment upon them. They can only excommunicate them from their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship.”
"Richter also claims that he was asked to design a thermostat for a high-temperature furnace that would be capable of destroying DNA evidence if such "atonements" were to take place"
The list over here is in violation of both WP:EL and WP:SEH. Wikipedia does not advertize. While also seeking to cut down links, 2 documentaries become redundant. We dont need to advertize to each film maker's views. In that interest I have removed the link that seems to have less. For the "Audio clips reveal..." I removed the POV language as that is not for Wikipedia to ascertain, the individual listener can decide.
In the media/news articles part: firstly, web logs are not reliable sources to list here, and, secondly, the articles don't provide a "unique resource" to the article. It may be a good source but it is better as a citation within the article.
Most importantly, a cursory glance at the guidelines will show "Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links, or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links." Lihaas ( talk) 18:12, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
I have added a new section, that just contains a link ot the main article but I think there should be a brief synopsis here in the article. Please add to it if you have the time or knowledge. Twunchy ( talk) 16:10, 29 September 2008 (UTC)