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The term "full-frame" is controversial in that it only applies where a range of lenses are designed for a sensor that is equivalent in size to a 135 film negative, but also compatible with smaller sensors, except that the image is "cropped". This distinction not applicable to other systems such as Nikon or 4/3 where the lenses are designed for the particular size sensor, and therefore use the "full frame" of the image circle. The article has been amended accordingly. The following chunk has been removed:
It follows from the above definition that cameras using a lens mount that was designed for digital SLRs (such as the Olympus Four Thirds System) are not full frame cameras. Similarly, a camera using a hypothetical new mount system and featuring a 24mm x 36mm sensor (the size of a 35mm film frame) would not be full frame. In practice, however, the term is often used to simply mean a camera having a sensor the same size as a full 35mm frame, while the applicability of the term to four thirds system cameras is a matter of much, often heated, debate.
The chief reason that digital SLRs have not been full frame is to do with the cost of producing such large sensors. As chip sizes get larger, the yield gets drastically lower and thus the prices higher. Moore's law does not apply here; most of the semiconductor industry's advances in affordability have been driven by the ability to make circuits smaller and smaller, but an imaging chip must remain large, and such large chips get cheaper only slowly.
The secondary reason is that digital imaging chips tend to have a much narrower range of acceptance angles than film. Thus, the sensor will be less sensitive to light towards the edges of the image circle, where the light rays are likely to be further from perpendicular. Adding to this, lenses tend to produce poorer results towards the edge of the circle in any case. A smaller image sensor stays within the "sweet spot" of the lens and sensor combination with less difficulty.
While a digital camera for any format could be full frame, in practice most examples produced have been for 35mm format. The first, fairly unsuccessful attempt was by Contax with a Philips sensor; Pentax worked with this sensor as well, producing a prototype MZ-D, but abandoned it before production. Eastman Kodak produced three models of full-frame camera, but all are now discontinued. The company that has had the most success with full-frame sensors is Canon Inc., whose full-frame sensor cameras have been very successful in the high-end professional photography field. Their newly released model, the Canon EOS 5D, seeks to emulate that success at a much lower price point.'
In general this section makes assertions that are not sourced and more in tune with debate across discussion forums rather than ascertainable technical or objective facts. Hmette
On further reflection - it may be that this article should be deleted on the basis that it comes under the category of neologisms. Does anyone have any coment before I add it to the list for deletions? -- Hmette 02:00, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry that link should have gone here: Wikipedia:Avoid neologisms. Basically that pages shouldn't be created for them.
Neologisms are words and terms that have recently been coined, generally do not appear in any dictionary, but may be used widely or within certain communities.
-- Hmette 03:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I know what neologisms are, but the page doesn't say there can't be articles about them, just that they need to be supported by good secondary sources. Seems like we've got that. Dicklyon 04:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Are there now additional brandsand models available, including some of the top-of-the-line Nikons? DGG 21:20, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
The AfD proposal had not gottten any support, but I added there the idea of some re-organization. Since this article has bits about other uses of full-frame, and there are other full-frame digital cameras than SLRs, potentially, and since we've got articles on image sensor format and crop factor, why not rationalize all this? I'll start by making a full frame (disambiguation). To me, it makes most sense to redirect crop factor to image sensor format where there would be a section on it, and to also redirect this article there, and make one of the disambig links go there, and have sections explaining the full-frame format in relation to the other formats, and relation being the crop factor. Comments? Dicklyon 16:04, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
All the pictures in the article show Nikon cameras. This seems odd to me. Are there photos of other camera makes? Then we should include them instead. If not then we should remove at least one of the Nikon ones. Foreeye ( talk) 16:11, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
How does DoF vary with camera format? Like so many things, it depends. When the subject distance is much less than hyperfocal, the total DoF T is given to good approximation by
where N is the f-number, c is the circle of confusion, and m is the magnification. When additionally the magnification is small (say, less than 0.1—DoF isn't something meaningfully considered to six significant figures), the formula for DoF further simplifies to
The comparative DoF of two different formats then depends on what is assumed. The normal comparison of different formats assumes essentially the same picture taken with each format and enlarged to produce the same size final image. So the subject distance remains the same, the focal length is adjusted to maintain the same angle of view, and to a first approximation, magnification is in direct proportion to some characteristic dimension (perhaps the horizontal angle of view) of each format. If each picture is enlarged to give the same size final image with the same sharpness criteria, the circle of confusion is also in direct proportion to the format size. Thus if l is the characteristic dimension of the format,
With the same f-number, the DoF ratio is then
so the DoF ratio is in inverse proportion to the format size. It should be noted that this ratio is approximate, and breaks down in the macro range of the larger format or as distance approaches the hyperfocal distance for the smaller format.
In comparing full-frame and smaller DSLRs, which usually can use most of the same lenses, the DoF ratio for the same lens used in the two formats may be of interest. Again, it's essential to state what is assumed. Magnification can be kept in rough proportion to the format sizes by adjusting subject distances. This appears to be what what Nick Rains is trying to describe:
But this statement isn't quite correct. For the same CoC, the DoF ratio is
or in proportion to the square of the format ratio. Now, keeping c constant apparently assumes the same enlargement for each format, and a smaller final image for the smaller format. Offhand, this doesn't make sense—I'd guess that Rains was really assuming same-size final images, so the DoF ratio would indeed be in inverse proportion to the format-size ratio. Nonetheless, that's not what he says, so I don't think the citation is appropriate.
Here I've looked at how DoF varies with constant f-number; equivalently, for the same DoF, the smaller format uses a smaller f-number. But in either case, the aperture isn't “multiplied”.
I think it's reasonable to assume the same framing of the main subject for the two formats, though we need to state that it's done by adjusting subject distance, and that the relationship is approximate.
Because the cited source is wrong, I don't see how it can be considered reliable, so I've removed it. Offhand, I don't have a reliable source to cite in its place, but the relationship easy enough to prove that it could be added to the Depth of field article if people insist that the statement be supported. It also could be argued that the section DOF vs. format size in that article needs support. JeffConrad ( talk) 02:12, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Nikon use FX and DX to indicate camera formats, as is correctly stated. Canon use APS-H for their 1.3 crop-factor format, and APS-C for their 1.6 crop-factor format, and apparently don't have a designation for the full-frame format in the EOS-1Ds and EOS-5D series cameras. EF and EF-S refer to series of lenses rather than formats, so their use is not similar to Nikon's.
The current statement needs a reliable source or it's gone. If we want to mention Canon's format designators as well as Nikon's, we should use the proper ones. Perhaps it's also OK to mention the EF-S lenses, but it seems to me that this article is about cameras, not lenses. JeffConrad ( talk) 11:16, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Despite the current title, isn't the topic of this article really something to the effect of Camera with 36 mm × 24 mm sensor? It's not obvious to me why the Leica M9 is any more off topic than the Leica S2. Although the former isn't an SLR, the latter is really a new format that's larger than 36 mm × 24 mm; if the S2 qualifies, why don't other digital formats larger than 36 mm × 24 mm also qualify?
I think we get back to some of the comments in the section Proposed Deletion; “full-frame” is a neologism. Although it's widely used, I'm not sure we have a definitive source for what it means.
As for the Leica M9 being unsupported: the same could be said for 90% of this article; though there's ostensibly quite a list of references, a second look suggests that most of them aren't too solid. JeffConrad ( talk) 01:54, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Upon further thought, I return to the conclusion that “full-frame digital camera” = 24 mm × 36 mm is tough to justify. The term “full-frame medium format” (for sensors such as used in the Phase One P65+ back and the Hasselblad H4D camera) is also fairly common. I'll concede that use in relation to medium format is also a bit presumptuous given the plethora of “medium” film formats and the fact that none of the current sensors quite matches the smallest “645” format (42.5 mm × 56 mm, as I recall), but the term will eventually become more common, especially when prices eventually fall to where they are within the reach of the ordinary independently wealthy. Perhaps “Full-frame 35 mm digital camera” is too much for a title, but it certainly needs to be acknowledged in the article, lest someone raise a vary valid objection that the title is unreasonably preemptive. Again, no question that “35 mm” format predominates, but predominant is not the same as exclusive. JeffConrad ( talk) 01:10, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be better if this article was titled "Full-frame digital sensor" rather than "Full-frame digital SLR"? Full-frame sensors are used in non-DSLRs as is mentioned in the article. Appreciated that some parts of the article would need to be reworded if the titled was changed as I'm suggesting. Zin92 ( talk) 23:11, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
I've replaced the list of full frame digital SLR cameras with a gallery of their images. Some of the images are not exactly right; for instance a Contax N1 is used for the Contax N digital, and the Canon 1Ds Mark III is actually a Canon 1Ds. For others there did not appear to be any photographs of the bodies available on the commons or wikipedia. I have a 1Ds Mark III, so I'll take a photograph of it replace the incorrect image. If anyone has the other bodies, especially the newer Nikons, please upload images and replace the "No image" SVG. Thanks! -- Autopilot ( talk) 02:40, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
JeffConrad -- I don't know if Nikon has a similar white paper discussing their cost of production, but I expect the costs would be similar if not worse. Canon manufactures their own sensors rather than sourcing them from other fabs, so their prices might be less than paid by other camera companies.
The amount of information that Canon reveals in their paper is astounding. For instance, just the wafer for the full frame sensor in the 5D and 1Ds Mark II is as high as $250 before any additional process steps are taken. They also go into why CCD sensors are not manufactured in full-frame sizes due to the limitations of the size of the lithography mask (26x33mm) and the finer tolerances required for CCD compared to CMOS. Also amusing is the lens used to focus the lithography laser -- almost 2 m tall and several hundred kg. -- Autopilot ( talk) 03:32, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
Something is very wrong with Canon's statement that 200 APS-C sensors will fit on a 200 mm wafer. Without even accounting for edge losses or saw streets, it's impossible to fit more than 95. I suspect the real number is in the low 60s, but we obviously can't speculate in this article. In any event, the reference to 200 should be removed; that a physical impossibility has a supposedly reliable source seems irrelevant. The mention of 20 full-frame 35 mm sensors is fine, especially because the Canon white paper shows an image of such a wafer.
JeffConrad (
talk) 22:35, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
"For example, a 200 mm lens on a camera with a crop factor of 1.5 has the same angle of view as a 300 mm lens on a full-frame camera. The extra "reach", for a given number of pixels, can be helpful in specific areas of photography such as wildlife or sports."
I believe this is misleading. If I buy a FF camera which generally has more pixels and I stick a 200 mm lens on it, then I can get the 300mm effect of the DX simply by cropping the image. The above assumes that an FF has the same number of pixels as a smaller DX but that is not always the case, and if the number of pixels is the same then they are smaller on the sensor anyway and the advantage is perhaps nullified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.122.63.6 ( talk) 13:42, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
The {{ citation needed}} tag that I restored probably should be taken as applying to the entire paragraph, which seems to suggest that an APS-C format has optical quality advantages over FF because
Consequently, with all factors considered, I don't think the advantages are so clear cut. In any event, the paragraph should be more clear about what it's really saying rather than leaving it for the reader to guess. And if the intent is anything like what I've suggested above, each point should be supported by a reliable source, which currently isn't the case. JeffConrad ( talk) 01:04, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Another advantage of Full-frame dSLRs over smaller formats is that Full-frame dSLRs have larger, more widely spaced PDAF sensors. This means that Full-frame dSLRs are more likely to have more accurate focus. Of course, because of their more shallow depth of field, they need it, but the fact remains. TCav ( talk) 17:45, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
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The term "full-frame" is controversial in that it only applies where a range of lenses are designed for a sensor that is equivalent in size to a 135 film negative, but also compatible with smaller sensors, except that the image is "cropped". This distinction not applicable to other systems such as Nikon or 4/3 where the lenses are designed for the particular size sensor, and therefore use the "full frame" of the image circle. The article has been amended accordingly. The following chunk has been removed:
It follows from the above definition that cameras using a lens mount that was designed for digital SLRs (such as the Olympus Four Thirds System) are not full frame cameras. Similarly, a camera using a hypothetical new mount system and featuring a 24mm x 36mm sensor (the size of a 35mm film frame) would not be full frame. In practice, however, the term is often used to simply mean a camera having a sensor the same size as a full 35mm frame, while the applicability of the term to four thirds system cameras is a matter of much, often heated, debate.
The chief reason that digital SLRs have not been full frame is to do with the cost of producing such large sensors. As chip sizes get larger, the yield gets drastically lower and thus the prices higher. Moore's law does not apply here; most of the semiconductor industry's advances in affordability have been driven by the ability to make circuits smaller and smaller, but an imaging chip must remain large, and such large chips get cheaper only slowly.
The secondary reason is that digital imaging chips tend to have a much narrower range of acceptance angles than film. Thus, the sensor will be less sensitive to light towards the edges of the image circle, where the light rays are likely to be further from perpendicular. Adding to this, lenses tend to produce poorer results towards the edge of the circle in any case. A smaller image sensor stays within the "sweet spot" of the lens and sensor combination with less difficulty.
While a digital camera for any format could be full frame, in practice most examples produced have been for 35mm format. The first, fairly unsuccessful attempt was by Contax with a Philips sensor; Pentax worked with this sensor as well, producing a prototype MZ-D, but abandoned it before production. Eastman Kodak produced three models of full-frame camera, but all are now discontinued. The company that has had the most success with full-frame sensors is Canon Inc., whose full-frame sensor cameras have been very successful in the high-end professional photography field. Their newly released model, the Canon EOS 5D, seeks to emulate that success at a much lower price point.'
In general this section makes assertions that are not sourced and more in tune with debate across discussion forums rather than ascertainable technical or objective facts. Hmette
On further reflection - it may be that this article should be deleted on the basis that it comes under the category of neologisms. Does anyone have any coment before I add it to the list for deletions? -- Hmette 02:00, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry that link should have gone here: Wikipedia:Avoid neologisms. Basically that pages shouldn't be created for them.
Neologisms are words and terms that have recently been coined, generally do not appear in any dictionary, but may be used widely or within certain communities.
-- Hmette 03:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I know what neologisms are, but the page doesn't say there can't be articles about them, just that they need to be supported by good secondary sources. Seems like we've got that. Dicklyon 04:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Are there now additional brandsand models available, including some of the top-of-the-line Nikons? DGG 21:20, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
The AfD proposal had not gottten any support, but I added there the idea of some re-organization. Since this article has bits about other uses of full-frame, and there are other full-frame digital cameras than SLRs, potentially, and since we've got articles on image sensor format and crop factor, why not rationalize all this? I'll start by making a full frame (disambiguation). To me, it makes most sense to redirect crop factor to image sensor format where there would be a section on it, and to also redirect this article there, and make one of the disambig links go there, and have sections explaining the full-frame format in relation to the other formats, and relation being the crop factor. Comments? Dicklyon 16:04, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
All the pictures in the article show Nikon cameras. This seems odd to me. Are there photos of other camera makes? Then we should include them instead. If not then we should remove at least one of the Nikon ones. Foreeye ( talk) 16:11, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
How does DoF vary with camera format? Like so many things, it depends. When the subject distance is much less than hyperfocal, the total DoF T is given to good approximation by
where N is the f-number, c is the circle of confusion, and m is the magnification. When additionally the magnification is small (say, less than 0.1—DoF isn't something meaningfully considered to six significant figures), the formula for DoF further simplifies to
The comparative DoF of two different formats then depends on what is assumed. The normal comparison of different formats assumes essentially the same picture taken with each format and enlarged to produce the same size final image. So the subject distance remains the same, the focal length is adjusted to maintain the same angle of view, and to a first approximation, magnification is in direct proportion to some characteristic dimension (perhaps the horizontal angle of view) of each format. If each picture is enlarged to give the same size final image with the same sharpness criteria, the circle of confusion is also in direct proportion to the format size. Thus if l is the characteristic dimension of the format,
With the same f-number, the DoF ratio is then
so the DoF ratio is in inverse proportion to the format size. It should be noted that this ratio is approximate, and breaks down in the macro range of the larger format or as distance approaches the hyperfocal distance for the smaller format.
In comparing full-frame and smaller DSLRs, which usually can use most of the same lenses, the DoF ratio for the same lens used in the two formats may be of interest. Again, it's essential to state what is assumed. Magnification can be kept in rough proportion to the format sizes by adjusting subject distances. This appears to be what what Nick Rains is trying to describe:
But this statement isn't quite correct. For the same CoC, the DoF ratio is
or in proportion to the square of the format ratio. Now, keeping c constant apparently assumes the same enlargement for each format, and a smaller final image for the smaller format. Offhand, this doesn't make sense—I'd guess that Rains was really assuming same-size final images, so the DoF ratio would indeed be in inverse proportion to the format-size ratio. Nonetheless, that's not what he says, so I don't think the citation is appropriate.
Here I've looked at how DoF varies with constant f-number; equivalently, for the same DoF, the smaller format uses a smaller f-number. But in either case, the aperture isn't “multiplied”.
I think it's reasonable to assume the same framing of the main subject for the two formats, though we need to state that it's done by adjusting subject distance, and that the relationship is approximate.
Because the cited source is wrong, I don't see how it can be considered reliable, so I've removed it. Offhand, I don't have a reliable source to cite in its place, but the relationship easy enough to prove that it could be added to the Depth of field article if people insist that the statement be supported. It also could be argued that the section DOF vs. format size in that article needs support. JeffConrad ( talk) 02:12, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Nikon use FX and DX to indicate camera formats, as is correctly stated. Canon use APS-H for their 1.3 crop-factor format, and APS-C for their 1.6 crop-factor format, and apparently don't have a designation for the full-frame format in the EOS-1Ds and EOS-5D series cameras. EF and EF-S refer to series of lenses rather than formats, so their use is not similar to Nikon's.
The current statement needs a reliable source or it's gone. If we want to mention Canon's format designators as well as Nikon's, we should use the proper ones. Perhaps it's also OK to mention the EF-S lenses, but it seems to me that this article is about cameras, not lenses. JeffConrad ( talk) 11:16, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Despite the current title, isn't the topic of this article really something to the effect of Camera with 36 mm × 24 mm sensor? It's not obvious to me why the Leica M9 is any more off topic than the Leica S2. Although the former isn't an SLR, the latter is really a new format that's larger than 36 mm × 24 mm; if the S2 qualifies, why don't other digital formats larger than 36 mm × 24 mm also qualify?
I think we get back to some of the comments in the section Proposed Deletion; “full-frame” is a neologism. Although it's widely used, I'm not sure we have a definitive source for what it means.
As for the Leica M9 being unsupported: the same could be said for 90% of this article; though there's ostensibly quite a list of references, a second look suggests that most of them aren't too solid. JeffConrad ( talk) 01:54, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Upon further thought, I return to the conclusion that “full-frame digital camera” = 24 mm × 36 mm is tough to justify. The term “full-frame medium format” (for sensors such as used in the Phase One P65+ back and the Hasselblad H4D camera) is also fairly common. I'll concede that use in relation to medium format is also a bit presumptuous given the plethora of “medium” film formats and the fact that none of the current sensors quite matches the smallest “645” format (42.5 mm × 56 mm, as I recall), but the term will eventually become more common, especially when prices eventually fall to where they are within the reach of the ordinary independently wealthy. Perhaps “Full-frame 35 mm digital camera” is too much for a title, but it certainly needs to be acknowledged in the article, lest someone raise a vary valid objection that the title is unreasonably preemptive. Again, no question that “35 mm” format predominates, but predominant is not the same as exclusive. JeffConrad ( talk) 01:10, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be better if this article was titled "Full-frame digital sensor" rather than "Full-frame digital SLR"? Full-frame sensors are used in non-DSLRs as is mentioned in the article. Appreciated that some parts of the article would need to be reworded if the titled was changed as I'm suggesting. Zin92 ( talk) 23:11, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
I've replaced the list of full frame digital SLR cameras with a gallery of their images. Some of the images are not exactly right; for instance a Contax N1 is used for the Contax N digital, and the Canon 1Ds Mark III is actually a Canon 1Ds. For others there did not appear to be any photographs of the bodies available on the commons or wikipedia. I have a 1Ds Mark III, so I'll take a photograph of it replace the incorrect image. If anyone has the other bodies, especially the newer Nikons, please upload images and replace the "No image" SVG. Thanks! -- Autopilot ( talk) 02:40, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
JeffConrad -- I don't know if Nikon has a similar white paper discussing their cost of production, but I expect the costs would be similar if not worse. Canon manufactures their own sensors rather than sourcing them from other fabs, so their prices might be less than paid by other camera companies.
The amount of information that Canon reveals in their paper is astounding. For instance, just the wafer for the full frame sensor in the 5D and 1Ds Mark II is as high as $250 before any additional process steps are taken. They also go into why CCD sensors are not manufactured in full-frame sizes due to the limitations of the size of the lithography mask (26x33mm) and the finer tolerances required for CCD compared to CMOS. Also amusing is the lens used to focus the lithography laser -- almost 2 m tall and several hundred kg. -- Autopilot ( talk) 03:32, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
Something is very wrong with Canon's statement that 200 APS-C sensors will fit on a 200 mm wafer. Without even accounting for edge losses or saw streets, it's impossible to fit more than 95. I suspect the real number is in the low 60s, but we obviously can't speculate in this article. In any event, the reference to 200 should be removed; that a physical impossibility has a supposedly reliable source seems irrelevant. The mention of 20 full-frame 35 mm sensors is fine, especially because the Canon white paper shows an image of such a wafer.
JeffConrad (
talk) 22:35, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
"For example, a 200 mm lens on a camera with a crop factor of 1.5 has the same angle of view as a 300 mm lens on a full-frame camera. The extra "reach", for a given number of pixels, can be helpful in specific areas of photography such as wildlife or sports."
I believe this is misleading. If I buy a FF camera which generally has more pixels and I stick a 200 mm lens on it, then I can get the 300mm effect of the DX simply by cropping the image. The above assumes that an FF has the same number of pixels as a smaller DX but that is not always the case, and if the number of pixels is the same then they are smaller on the sensor anyway and the advantage is perhaps nullified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.122.63.6 ( talk) 13:42, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
The {{ citation needed}} tag that I restored probably should be taken as applying to the entire paragraph, which seems to suggest that an APS-C format has optical quality advantages over FF because
Consequently, with all factors considered, I don't think the advantages are so clear cut. In any event, the paragraph should be more clear about what it's really saying rather than leaving it for the reader to guess. And if the intent is anything like what I've suggested above, each point should be supported by a reliable source, which currently isn't the case. JeffConrad ( talk) 01:04, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Another advantage of Full-frame dSLRs over smaller formats is that Full-frame dSLRs have larger, more widely spaced PDAF sensors. This means that Full-frame dSLRs are more likely to have more accurate focus. Of course, because of their more shallow depth of field, they need it, but the fact remains. TCav ( talk) 17:45, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
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I have just modified 5 external links on Full-frame digital SLR. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 08:22, 11 July 2022 (UTC)