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Please help flesh out the article - see Google Search [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 05:06, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
What happened to the Kerry quote and other content? [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 05:44, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
This text:
It was at this hearing, during his testimony that John Kerry asked his now famous rhetorical question "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"
More recently, during the 2004 United States presidental campaign, certain critics of Senator Kerry have focused current media attention on this long past Senate hearing and have alleged that various comments by Kerry in his testimony were inaccurate and portrayed American war veterans of that era in an unduly harsh light.
appears to have been inadvertantly lost in the earliy edits. I have restored it as it is central to the historical significance of the article. Even so, I am very keen to hear from others, if they have concerns about this. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 05:51, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to restore the wiki links section which Neutrality deleted as redundant. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 21:23, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
User Neutrality has again deleted the Wiki links for an edit summary stated reason of "redundant". I don't see that andd have commented twice now about these to him here [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 05:34, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
This question which Gamaliel asks is a very difficult one. Here is what I know: Senator Fulbright was a long time poltical patron of many up and coming Democrats from Arkansas. He was in fact, a major help to Bill Clinton several times many years ago. Senator Fulbright was also a long time poltical patron of many well connected Democrats and their supporters.
What I understand to be the case is that Senator Fulbright agreed to hold this hearing at the request of various VVAW supportive Democrats. Concurrent with this hearing, various VVAW leaders as well as their retinue of supporters, were in DC for the "medal-tossing" event and other prostests as John Kerry VVAW controversy makes clear.
As to why only Kerry was called? Most certainly it was because he was the most presentable and articulate of the VVAW leaders who was available for this session.
Suffice it to say, the hearing itself was pretty much a media circus (one of the 1st of that era) and more than likely was organized and held with the intent of impacting American public opinion against the war.
I speculate that this is precisly why the SBVT people such as O'Neil are so oppossed to Kerry. They blame him for the adverse rap vets got for Kerry's testimony. It seems that SBVT does not feel that Kerry's disclaimers of only "I would simply like to speak in very general terms. I apologize if my statement is general because I received notification yesterday you would hear me and I am afraid because of the injunction I was up most of the night and haven't had a great deal of chance to prepare" and "They told the stories at times they had personally" did not justify Kerry repeating allegations which in large measure SBVT claims were false.
Even so, for better or worse - that hearing was the event which launched Kerry's poltical career and national notice. What remains for us to make sure of is that we should have a fair, balanced and accurate presentation about it.
Personally, I do not think the article will benefit if we start digging into the background, etc., of Senator Fulbright - too much potential to open cans of worms:
"Former President Bill Clinton, throughout his eight years in office, repeatedly made reference to his mentor, personally and politically, and that's J. William Fulbright, a longtime senator from Arkansas who was, of course, a segregationist. Who signed the southern manifesto in 1956 attacking Brown versus Board of Education, the Supreme Court decision that allowed black children go to school with white children." [1]
[[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 22:32, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
But when you ask why the hearing was held, since Fulbright was the chairman and he controlled whether or not there would be meetings, we have to look to him, yes? [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 22:52, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Indeed, but we are not mind-readers, unless there is a reliable record which indicates the rationale for the hearing, we have to presume it's because Fulbright's intentions was to work his role as committed Deomcrat aimed at advancing anti-war sentiment. Even so, none of this needs to go in the article. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 23:50, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
(moved here from Rex071404 talk page)
The wikilinks are already in the article, therefore they are redundant. [[User:Neutrality| Neutrality ( talk)]] 05:38, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I would rather the links be "redundantly" included at the bottom of the page, rather than having to introduce the topics of VVAW and "Medal Toss" in the body of the article. I am hoping, along the lines of what's on this page that you might agree to accomodate my viewpoint on this and drop you opposition to them being listed "redundantly" at the bottom. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 05:55, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Also, thise article is quite fair to JK - it makes no sense to force me to find "unique" web links over which we Wiki editors have no control, simply to achieve my aim of "salient point re-cap" links at the bottom. L & N, I urge you to both reconsider; the Wiki links I want are utlimately going to be much better from your perspective than forcing me to go to the web. I'd rather not go get SVBT page links or stolenhonor.com or any of that stuff. Please reconsider. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 06:03, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
L, you are way off there. Please check with N. Things are going smoothly here and there is no conflict. You are making presumptions based on previous bad interactions. Also, I'd prefer you not typify my interests as "silly". I feel that the three links I want in refer to three of the more salient points in the article. By assenting to my wish of including them you are collegially (jointly problem solving) so as to eliminate my need to see another route to my end. I feel, from an editorial standpoint, that those three links have the effect of pointing out again key points in the article without talking about them much - and that is what I am aiming at. The whole reason why I started this page and then willingly stood back while Neutrality built up a page framework that he's comfortable with, was to make sure there was a Wiki page that the JK/GWB sides could both live with and which could be linked to when referring to Kerry's 1971 testimony. This page is needed as a link-to solution to another editorial problem at SBVT. And since it's also a nice page in and of itself, the Wiki is that much the better. Don't you see what's up here? I am standing back and not fighting those such as N., who want much content control here. Beside a few sentences in the text, all I ask is that here is that the "salient point re-cap" be allowed so as to be more certain that someone who may follow a link to here might then be more likely to read through all the associated ones. If you are concerned about readers being led by the nose, let's duke it out at SBVT or elsewhere, not here. On this article we have a real chance to have a page we all can like. Won't you consider bending to my request here, even if it is "silly" to you? Please? [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 06:24, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Ps: the section heading of "see alsos" is Neutrality's wording, copied here from my talk page. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 06:28, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
L.; My request is based on the principles elucidated here "Consensus decision-making is a decision process that not only seeks the agreement of a majority of participants, but also to resolve or mitigate the objections of the minority to achieve the most agreeable decision". I am asking you to please reconsider this request of mine, which is: Please allow the inclusion of those three links. On this issue here, I feel that my concerns, even though I am in the minority, could be resolved if you would yield on this point. Please explain how the article and/or your editorial standards are would be irretrievably harmed, if you yielded. And please focus on this request itself, not things you think I "always" do. Thanks. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 07:03, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Rex, why do you waste your time and everyone elses with tangental issues such as this one? You argue repeately for the inclusion of redundant links while everyone else has to spend time patiently explaining to you that it is simply not the way things work here. One look at your user page indicates that you simply do not understand the proper use of links on wikipedia. I suggest you read the relevant faq and help pages so you understand the technical and stylistic aspects of link usage. Some useful reading includes the following:
Gamaliel, per your comments above, please answer yes or no, to this:
Do you accept this statement to be valid and an accurate description of how we should interact: "Consensus decision-making is a decision process that not only seeks the agreement of a majority of participants, but also to resolve or mitigate the objections of the minority to achieve the most agreeable decision" [2].
I await your reply. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 08:22, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I am not trying to make a point. Rather, I am attemtpting to gain understanding as to what you consider "consensus" in regards to editing. If I am able to determine that, I will have less misunderstandings in regards to my expectations in dealing with you. I would consider it the utmost courtesy if you would please answer that above question, as posed, yes or no. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 09:08, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
My dilemma is this: From an editorial standpoint, I am interested to be sure that a certain few particularly salient points are attenuated in such a way that the reader's attention is slightly more drawn to them than the remainder of the article. Certainly, if done discretely, as I hope to do it, this emphasis will not be overdone, yet will still be such that the likely hood that certain links are read, is increased. So then, since this is my objective and it is not, of itself, problematic, I seek the consensus interaction of the other editors to brain-storm up a solution which they too would be willing to accept. So far the count is:
[[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 17:17, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Rex, you're not just seeking changes in the content of one article, you are seeking changes in the way articles are presented. If you feel that wikistyle is inadequate in some way, then the way to change that is not to create changes in one or two articles which then differ from all other articles on wikipedia, but to seek changes in wikistyle. Perhaps a discussion on Village Pump or the mailing list would be a starting point, but this article is clearly not the place for innovations in or major deviations from wikistyle. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 20:10, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
You are correct, it does mention boldface as an option, but I can't imagine that they were suggesting that we sprinkle an article with boldface links. How many wikipedia articles do that? I think a good example of proper boldface usage is the opening paragraph of John Kerry and I suppose we could compromise if you wanted to bold one or two things in the opening paragraph. However, personally, I don't think boldface links within an article are a good idea, from the standpoint of aesthetics, NPOV, etc. I can't imagine how ugly and stupid this place would look if every article looked something like Pablo Picasso, a cubist painter from Spain... Give the reader some credit for intelligence, Rex. They'll figure out on their own how to get to other articles that have the information they want. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 21:31, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC))
The link that Rex has inserted and re-inserted ( [3]) doesn't directly relate to the hearing but rather to the Winter Soldier Investigation. The case for inclusion here is that the Winter Soldier Investigation was the basis for Kerry's testimony. The case against inclusion is that all the information and links about the Winter Soldier Investigation could arguably be repeated here on the same rationale, and that the better way to do is to simply note the relationship and link to Winter Soldier Investigation, a link already included. In addition, it gets into the area of comments in 2004 about the 1971 hearing. We can correct the one-sidedness of the passage by including recent comments in support of Kerry's position, but this whole path seems to be leading toward turning this article into yet another he-said-she-said type battleground. Perhaps it makes more sense to confine it to recounting the events of 1971? The campaign-related controversies are addressed elsewhere. JamesMLane 06:58, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
JML's comments reflect my view. I would like to point out that this particular Wiki Article would appear to be misnamed. The Fulbright Hearings were 11 days of testimony and discussion regarding proposals to end U.S. Participation in the Vietnam conflict. There were a couple dozen "witnesses" of which Kerry was only one. H. Rainwater (Commander in Chief) of the Veterans of Foreign Wars also spoke. Representatives of Students & Youth spoke. The CEO of Hunt & Wesson (of Tomato Paste and Vegetable Oil fame) spoke. As did several Congressmen. It appears the originator of this topic wanted a disection arena for Kerry's testimony (a worthy topic in its own right), but instead chose a name that implies the Fulbright Hearings would be discribed - all 22 of them, not just the 8th (Kerry's) hearing. This makes the FoxNews linked story even more irrelevant for this entry. In addition, nothing reflected in the FoxNews article subject, Pitkin, related to the Fulbright Hearings - none of his testimony was referenced by Kerry. Finally, the content of the FoxNews article is already present in the Winter Soldier Investigation page. -Rob
http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=YesterdaysLies1
I disagree and I plan to make sure the link stays the way it is Stolen Honor Documentary. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 21:49, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The full name of Stolen Honor Documentary is a perfectly valid Wiki link. I do not agree that the short name of Stolen Honor is as informative to the readers in regards to telling tham what the link actually goes to. I did not agree to the "redirect" which the other party imposed in creating the new short name and I'd rather not get in any battles to revert that. Instead, where appropriate, I am going to simply use the longer name. This is one fo those appropriate occassions. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 15:55, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The Fox News link is 100% valid and goes to the core issue many poeple have with Kerry's testimony - flawed underlying data was testified to by him and has never been retracted. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 07:32, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Frankly, I am amazed at the bottom feeding habits of both JamesMLane and Gamaliel in their efforts to once again try to sidetrack reasonable editing efforts of mine.
Think about this:
[[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 00:25, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
"Why don't you come up with some new page ideas yourselves"? I've created about four or five times as many articles as you have. Even if I hadn't, it does not matter. This is a collaborative encyclopedia, and who "creates" an article does not matter, as it is a collective effort. As JML noted, you get "no special privileges" for "creating" an article.
It's really sad that you've chosen, once again, to make this personal. Your refusal to abide by or inability to understand Wikipedia policies and conventions is the reason for these conflicts, but instead of realizing this and reading up on the appropriate policies, you've chosen to repeatedly imagine yourself at the victim of a vast pro-Kerry conspiracy and attempt to argue your way into policy exceptions.
According to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (movies): Where a movie or book title is unique or virtually unique, let the title of the article be the same as the title of the movie. Thus it's abundantly clear to everyone but you that the proper title for that article is Stolen Honor. Instead of admitting that, you imagine malice on our parts and argue that it should be Stolen Honor Documentary, for apparently no other reason than you like the title that way and we do not. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 02:03, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Blah Blah Blah, both JML and Gamaliel are indeed edit stalkers. They follow me around the Wiki and interfere with my edits wherever they can. FYI: The phrase "Stolen Honor" when entered into Google returns 7,500 hits. Basically all which refer to this "documentary" do indeed call it the "Stolen Honor Documentary". You pro-Kerry editors have no shame. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 03:29, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It is a documentary. It refers to itself as a documentary and JML, I am going to link to it that way whether you like it or not. The Stolen Honor Documentary people do refer to their project as the Stolen Honor Documentary and editors on this Wiki ought to be able to as well. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 04:31, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
two-thirds of this article is somewhat selective quotes from kerry from the hearings on day 3. the entire text of those hearings is on wikisource (linked at bottom of page). kerry's initial statement is not particularly long anyway, so why is it being repeated in such detail here? why not just link to the full text? Wolfman 03:44, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Wolfman, check this out Fulbright Hearing/sb and tell me what you think. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 05:05, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
JML, you are free to add the the improved leaner verion, but don't delete it again or I am filing an RfA against you - you are being an edit stalker and a trouble maker. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 05:20, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It was not "unilateral". Wolfman had already viewed my link to the prior version which new trimmed down verison is based on - and agreed to it in principle. Now it appears you agree too. That makes (3). Certainly that's enough support to build on. Just add in the material you want to carry over. Stop hand-wringing over what amounts to nothing. Haven't you seen that the world did not end at TfT - even after I secured it's un-protection for your benfit from Mirv? [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 06:27, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Ambi, I really wish you had not nosed in with that revert. There is actual dialog going on, on the talk page. By putting your thumb on the scale in JamesMLane's favor, you take the pressure off him and he now has no real need to dialog with me. You ought to pay more attention to the fact that he is overtly hostile to me and avoid taking sides. JamesMLane has a real problem taking my comments at face value. Please don't make it any easier for him to ignore me [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 06:31, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Ambi, I have expressly invited JML to put them back in. And the way to get there is to start with the concise version and quickly add the additional content. Are you saying JML has done that? I saw no difference in his big version vs the other big version, did you? I am going to wait one day and if the article is not substantially pared down by others in that time, I am going to do it myself. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 06:41, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Well JML, I put a nice slimmed down verison in, but you kept reverting it, so frankly, I am going to beg off for tonight. I'm going to wait and see how serious you are. I'll do a new word count in a day, and see what the numbers look like. However, since I already have an opinion about what the "m" in your name stands for, I'm not expecting much from you. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 07:05, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
As I indicated I would, I have added three additional links. I believe they are all germane. Therefore, please discuss them here if you want to delete them, stating your reasons. Please be reminded, it is my view that in its current state, this article needs links to stay balanced. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 08:11, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Frankly, I find it very tiresome for people to use the term "vandalism" to mean "any edit I don't like". None of the recent edits fit the definition under Wikipedia:Vandalism. In an extreme case I filed a Request for Arbitration over a user's promiscuous charges of "vandalism". This edit dispute hasn't gotten anywhere near that point, but, nevertheless, could we cool it with the name-calling and discuss the substance? JamesMLane 05:22, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
While the language is suspicious, I doubt that it's Rex. Rex has never hesitated to yell loudly for whatever he wanted over and over again with next to no consequences for his actions. Why would he suddenly hide now?
I'm also wary of accusing someone of being Rex given that Rex has accused at least a half dozen people of vandalism and he was wrong each time. It feels like stooping to his level. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 05:34, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It is the anonymous editor(s) signing as "Rob" [5]. He's also been misusing the term "vandalism" during the several weeks that he's tried to take over the Winter Soldier Investigation page. -- SEWilco 20:28, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The "Kerry's statements" section seems to have gotten tossed over here from Kerry's page because these statements were made around the time of the Fulbright Hearing. I don't think they quite belong here because he didn't mention them in the hearings. -- ( SEWilco 18:20, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC))
Stop using copyrighted indexing material from Lexis-Nexis CIS/Index.
I've just noticed Fulbright Hearing/sb and Fulbright Hearing/Temp, neither of which have been touched since October 2004. Furthermore, they've got stuff in them that the edit summaries of /Temp suggest are copyvios. Should I delete them? Bryan 02:51, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I just came across this article almost by accident, while I was looking for some mention in WP of the earlier Fulbright Hearings, back in 1966-7. Amazingly, there seems to be no mention whatsoever anywhere in Wikipedia - not even in the Fulbright bio article! (Yes, I intend to rectify that situation... ) Wow - what gives??!! I am both stunned and appalled that those hearings have apparently been entirely omitted.
I see from the talk page for this article that there was some sort of discussion of Fulbright that was removed (correctly) because it went into a number of unrelated issues. But it seems to me that not including some concise historical context/background for the '71 hearings is doing a real disservice to the readers. I have a feeling that the original editors who labored on this article back in 2004-5 no longer have it watchlisted, but I'm hoping that somebody can tell me whether there was ever any reference to those earlier hearings in an older version of the article. Cgingold 16:56, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I was just wondering if we should add an article about Chris Matthews making small mention of these hearings because he referenced them on his show last night while talking about having hearings on Iraq. Let Me Finish... segment JoeMonkeyPotato ( talk) 00:27, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
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Please help flesh out the article - see Google Search [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 05:06, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
What happened to the Kerry quote and other content? [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 05:44, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
This text:
It was at this hearing, during his testimony that John Kerry asked his now famous rhetorical question "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"
More recently, during the 2004 United States presidental campaign, certain critics of Senator Kerry have focused current media attention on this long past Senate hearing and have alleged that various comments by Kerry in his testimony were inaccurate and portrayed American war veterans of that era in an unduly harsh light.
appears to have been inadvertantly lost in the earliy edits. I have restored it as it is central to the historical significance of the article. Even so, I am very keen to hear from others, if they have concerns about this. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 05:51, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to restore the wiki links section which Neutrality deleted as redundant. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 21:23, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
User Neutrality has again deleted the Wiki links for an edit summary stated reason of "redundant". I don't see that andd have commented twice now about these to him here [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 05:34, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
This question which Gamaliel asks is a very difficult one. Here is what I know: Senator Fulbright was a long time poltical patron of many up and coming Democrats from Arkansas. He was in fact, a major help to Bill Clinton several times many years ago. Senator Fulbright was also a long time poltical patron of many well connected Democrats and their supporters.
What I understand to be the case is that Senator Fulbright agreed to hold this hearing at the request of various VVAW supportive Democrats. Concurrent with this hearing, various VVAW leaders as well as their retinue of supporters, were in DC for the "medal-tossing" event and other prostests as John Kerry VVAW controversy makes clear.
As to why only Kerry was called? Most certainly it was because he was the most presentable and articulate of the VVAW leaders who was available for this session.
Suffice it to say, the hearing itself was pretty much a media circus (one of the 1st of that era) and more than likely was organized and held with the intent of impacting American public opinion against the war.
I speculate that this is precisly why the SBVT people such as O'Neil are so oppossed to Kerry. They blame him for the adverse rap vets got for Kerry's testimony. It seems that SBVT does not feel that Kerry's disclaimers of only "I would simply like to speak in very general terms. I apologize if my statement is general because I received notification yesterday you would hear me and I am afraid because of the injunction I was up most of the night and haven't had a great deal of chance to prepare" and "They told the stories at times they had personally" did not justify Kerry repeating allegations which in large measure SBVT claims were false.
Even so, for better or worse - that hearing was the event which launched Kerry's poltical career and national notice. What remains for us to make sure of is that we should have a fair, balanced and accurate presentation about it.
Personally, I do not think the article will benefit if we start digging into the background, etc., of Senator Fulbright - too much potential to open cans of worms:
"Former President Bill Clinton, throughout his eight years in office, repeatedly made reference to his mentor, personally and politically, and that's J. William Fulbright, a longtime senator from Arkansas who was, of course, a segregationist. Who signed the southern manifesto in 1956 attacking Brown versus Board of Education, the Supreme Court decision that allowed black children go to school with white children." [1]
[[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 22:32, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
But when you ask why the hearing was held, since Fulbright was the chairman and he controlled whether or not there would be meetings, we have to look to him, yes? [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 22:52, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Indeed, but we are not mind-readers, unless there is a reliable record which indicates the rationale for the hearing, we have to presume it's because Fulbright's intentions was to work his role as committed Deomcrat aimed at advancing anti-war sentiment. Even so, none of this needs to go in the article. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 23:50, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
(moved here from Rex071404 talk page)
The wikilinks are already in the article, therefore they are redundant. [[User:Neutrality| Neutrality ( talk)]] 05:38, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I would rather the links be "redundantly" included at the bottom of the page, rather than having to introduce the topics of VVAW and "Medal Toss" in the body of the article. I am hoping, along the lines of what's on this page that you might agree to accomodate my viewpoint on this and drop you opposition to them being listed "redundantly" at the bottom. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 05:55, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Also, thise article is quite fair to JK - it makes no sense to force me to find "unique" web links over which we Wiki editors have no control, simply to achieve my aim of "salient point re-cap" links at the bottom. L & N, I urge you to both reconsider; the Wiki links I want are utlimately going to be much better from your perspective than forcing me to go to the web. I'd rather not go get SVBT page links or stolenhonor.com or any of that stuff. Please reconsider. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 06:03, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
L, you are way off there. Please check with N. Things are going smoothly here and there is no conflict. You are making presumptions based on previous bad interactions. Also, I'd prefer you not typify my interests as "silly". I feel that the three links I want in refer to three of the more salient points in the article. By assenting to my wish of including them you are collegially (jointly problem solving) so as to eliminate my need to see another route to my end. I feel, from an editorial standpoint, that those three links have the effect of pointing out again key points in the article without talking about them much - and that is what I am aiming at. The whole reason why I started this page and then willingly stood back while Neutrality built up a page framework that he's comfortable with, was to make sure there was a Wiki page that the JK/GWB sides could both live with and which could be linked to when referring to Kerry's 1971 testimony. This page is needed as a link-to solution to another editorial problem at SBVT. And since it's also a nice page in and of itself, the Wiki is that much the better. Don't you see what's up here? I am standing back and not fighting those such as N., who want much content control here. Beside a few sentences in the text, all I ask is that here is that the "salient point re-cap" be allowed so as to be more certain that someone who may follow a link to here might then be more likely to read through all the associated ones. If you are concerned about readers being led by the nose, let's duke it out at SBVT or elsewhere, not here. On this article we have a real chance to have a page we all can like. Won't you consider bending to my request here, even if it is "silly" to you? Please? [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 06:24, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Ps: the section heading of "see alsos" is Neutrality's wording, copied here from my talk page. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 06:28, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
L.; My request is based on the principles elucidated here "Consensus decision-making is a decision process that not only seeks the agreement of a majority of participants, but also to resolve or mitigate the objections of the minority to achieve the most agreeable decision". I am asking you to please reconsider this request of mine, which is: Please allow the inclusion of those three links. On this issue here, I feel that my concerns, even though I am in the minority, could be resolved if you would yield on this point. Please explain how the article and/or your editorial standards are would be irretrievably harmed, if you yielded. And please focus on this request itself, not things you think I "always" do. Thanks. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 07:03, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Rex, why do you waste your time and everyone elses with tangental issues such as this one? You argue repeately for the inclusion of redundant links while everyone else has to spend time patiently explaining to you that it is simply not the way things work here. One look at your user page indicates that you simply do not understand the proper use of links on wikipedia. I suggest you read the relevant faq and help pages so you understand the technical and stylistic aspects of link usage. Some useful reading includes the following:
Gamaliel, per your comments above, please answer yes or no, to this:
Do you accept this statement to be valid and an accurate description of how we should interact: "Consensus decision-making is a decision process that not only seeks the agreement of a majority of participants, but also to resolve or mitigate the objections of the minority to achieve the most agreeable decision" [2].
I await your reply. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 08:22, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I am not trying to make a point. Rather, I am attemtpting to gain understanding as to what you consider "consensus" in regards to editing. If I am able to determine that, I will have less misunderstandings in regards to my expectations in dealing with you. I would consider it the utmost courtesy if you would please answer that above question, as posed, yes or no. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 09:08, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
My dilemma is this: From an editorial standpoint, I am interested to be sure that a certain few particularly salient points are attenuated in such a way that the reader's attention is slightly more drawn to them than the remainder of the article. Certainly, if done discretely, as I hope to do it, this emphasis will not be overdone, yet will still be such that the likely hood that certain links are read, is increased. So then, since this is my objective and it is not, of itself, problematic, I seek the consensus interaction of the other editors to brain-storm up a solution which they too would be willing to accept. So far the count is:
[[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 17:17, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Rex, you're not just seeking changes in the content of one article, you are seeking changes in the way articles are presented. If you feel that wikistyle is inadequate in some way, then the way to change that is not to create changes in one or two articles which then differ from all other articles on wikipedia, but to seek changes in wikistyle. Perhaps a discussion on Village Pump or the mailing list would be a starting point, but this article is clearly not the place for innovations in or major deviations from wikistyle. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 20:10, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
You are correct, it does mention boldface as an option, but I can't imagine that they were suggesting that we sprinkle an article with boldface links. How many wikipedia articles do that? I think a good example of proper boldface usage is the opening paragraph of John Kerry and I suppose we could compromise if you wanted to bold one or two things in the opening paragraph. However, personally, I don't think boldface links within an article are a good idea, from the standpoint of aesthetics, NPOV, etc. I can't imagine how ugly and stupid this place would look if every article looked something like Pablo Picasso, a cubist painter from Spain... Give the reader some credit for intelligence, Rex. They'll figure out on their own how to get to other articles that have the information they want. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 21:31, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC))
The link that Rex has inserted and re-inserted ( [3]) doesn't directly relate to the hearing but rather to the Winter Soldier Investigation. The case for inclusion here is that the Winter Soldier Investigation was the basis for Kerry's testimony. The case against inclusion is that all the information and links about the Winter Soldier Investigation could arguably be repeated here on the same rationale, and that the better way to do is to simply note the relationship and link to Winter Soldier Investigation, a link already included. In addition, it gets into the area of comments in 2004 about the 1971 hearing. We can correct the one-sidedness of the passage by including recent comments in support of Kerry's position, but this whole path seems to be leading toward turning this article into yet another he-said-she-said type battleground. Perhaps it makes more sense to confine it to recounting the events of 1971? The campaign-related controversies are addressed elsewhere. JamesMLane 06:58, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
JML's comments reflect my view. I would like to point out that this particular Wiki Article would appear to be misnamed. The Fulbright Hearings were 11 days of testimony and discussion regarding proposals to end U.S. Participation in the Vietnam conflict. There were a couple dozen "witnesses" of which Kerry was only one. H. Rainwater (Commander in Chief) of the Veterans of Foreign Wars also spoke. Representatives of Students & Youth spoke. The CEO of Hunt & Wesson (of Tomato Paste and Vegetable Oil fame) spoke. As did several Congressmen. It appears the originator of this topic wanted a disection arena for Kerry's testimony (a worthy topic in its own right), but instead chose a name that implies the Fulbright Hearings would be discribed - all 22 of them, not just the 8th (Kerry's) hearing. This makes the FoxNews linked story even more irrelevant for this entry. In addition, nothing reflected in the FoxNews article subject, Pitkin, related to the Fulbright Hearings - none of his testimony was referenced by Kerry. Finally, the content of the FoxNews article is already present in the Winter Soldier Investigation page. -Rob
http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=YesterdaysLies1
I disagree and I plan to make sure the link stays the way it is Stolen Honor Documentary. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 21:49, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The full name of Stolen Honor Documentary is a perfectly valid Wiki link. I do not agree that the short name of Stolen Honor is as informative to the readers in regards to telling tham what the link actually goes to. I did not agree to the "redirect" which the other party imposed in creating the new short name and I'd rather not get in any battles to revert that. Instead, where appropriate, I am going to simply use the longer name. This is one fo those appropriate occassions. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 15:55, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The Fox News link is 100% valid and goes to the core issue many poeple have with Kerry's testimony - flawed underlying data was testified to by him and has never been retracted. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 07:32, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Frankly, I am amazed at the bottom feeding habits of both JamesMLane and Gamaliel in their efforts to once again try to sidetrack reasonable editing efforts of mine.
Think about this:
[[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 00:25, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
"Why don't you come up with some new page ideas yourselves"? I've created about four or five times as many articles as you have. Even if I hadn't, it does not matter. This is a collaborative encyclopedia, and who "creates" an article does not matter, as it is a collective effort. As JML noted, you get "no special privileges" for "creating" an article.
It's really sad that you've chosen, once again, to make this personal. Your refusal to abide by or inability to understand Wikipedia policies and conventions is the reason for these conflicts, but instead of realizing this and reading up on the appropriate policies, you've chosen to repeatedly imagine yourself at the victim of a vast pro-Kerry conspiracy and attempt to argue your way into policy exceptions.
According to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (movies): Where a movie or book title is unique or virtually unique, let the title of the article be the same as the title of the movie. Thus it's abundantly clear to everyone but you that the proper title for that article is Stolen Honor. Instead of admitting that, you imagine malice on our parts and argue that it should be Stolen Honor Documentary, for apparently no other reason than you like the title that way and we do not. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 02:03, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Blah Blah Blah, both JML and Gamaliel are indeed edit stalkers. They follow me around the Wiki and interfere with my edits wherever they can. FYI: The phrase "Stolen Honor" when entered into Google returns 7,500 hits. Basically all which refer to this "documentary" do indeed call it the "Stolen Honor Documentary". You pro-Kerry editors have no shame. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 03:29, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It is a documentary. It refers to itself as a documentary and JML, I am going to link to it that way whether you like it or not. The Stolen Honor Documentary people do refer to their project as the Stolen Honor Documentary and editors on this Wiki ought to be able to as well. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 04:31, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
two-thirds of this article is somewhat selective quotes from kerry from the hearings on day 3. the entire text of those hearings is on wikisource (linked at bottom of page). kerry's initial statement is not particularly long anyway, so why is it being repeated in such detail here? why not just link to the full text? Wolfman 03:44, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Wolfman, check this out Fulbright Hearing/sb and tell me what you think. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 05:05, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
JML, you are free to add the the improved leaner verion, but don't delete it again or I am filing an RfA against you - you are being an edit stalker and a trouble maker. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 05:20, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It was not "unilateral". Wolfman had already viewed my link to the prior version which new trimmed down verison is based on - and agreed to it in principle. Now it appears you agree too. That makes (3). Certainly that's enough support to build on. Just add in the material you want to carry over. Stop hand-wringing over what amounts to nothing. Haven't you seen that the world did not end at TfT - even after I secured it's un-protection for your benfit from Mirv? [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 06:27, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Ambi, I really wish you had not nosed in with that revert. There is actual dialog going on, on the talk page. By putting your thumb on the scale in JamesMLane's favor, you take the pressure off him and he now has no real need to dialog with me. You ought to pay more attention to the fact that he is overtly hostile to me and avoid taking sides. JamesMLane has a real problem taking my comments at face value. Please don't make it any easier for him to ignore me [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 06:31, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Ambi, I have expressly invited JML to put them back in. And the way to get there is to start with the concise version and quickly add the additional content. Are you saying JML has done that? I saw no difference in his big version vs the other big version, did you? I am going to wait one day and if the article is not substantially pared down by others in that time, I am going to do it myself. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 06:41, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Well JML, I put a nice slimmed down verison in, but you kept reverting it, so frankly, I am going to beg off for tonight. I'm going to wait and see how serious you are. I'll do a new word count in a day, and see what the numbers look like. However, since I already have an opinion about what the "m" in your name stands for, I'm not expecting much from you. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 07:05, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
As I indicated I would, I have added three additional links. I believe they are all germane. Therefore, please discuss them here if you want to delete them, stating your reasons. Please be reminded, it is my view that in its current state, this article needs links to stay balanced. [[User:Rex071404| Rex071404 ]] 08:11, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Frankly, I find it very tiresome for people to use the term "vandalism" to mean "any edit I don't like". None of the recent edits fit the definition under Wikipedia:Vandalism. In an extreme case I filed a Request for Arbitration over a user's promiscuous charges of "vandalism". This edit dispute hasn't gotten anywhere near that point, but, nevertheless, could we cool it with the name-calling and discuss the substance? JamesMLane 05:22, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
While the language is suspicious, I doubt that it's Rex. Rex has never hesitated to yell loudly for whatever he wanted over and over again with next to no consequences for his actions. Why would he suddenly hide now?
I'm also wary of accusing someone of being Rex given that Rex has accused at least a half dozen people of vandalism and he was wrong each time. It feels like stooping to his level. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 05:34, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It is the anonymous editor(s) signing as "Rob" [5]. He's also been misusing the term "vandalism" during the several weeks that he's tried to take over the Winter Soldier Investigation page. -- SEWilco 20:28, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The "Kerry's statements" section seems to have gotten tossed over here from Kerry's page because these statements were made around the time of the Fulbright Hearing. I don't think they quite belong here because he didn't mention them in the hearings. -- ( SEWilco 18:20, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC))
Stop using copyrighted indexing material from Lexis-Nexis CIS/Index.
I've just noticed Fulbright Hearing/sb and Fulbright Hearing/Temp, neither of which have been touched since October 2004. Furthermore, they've got stuff in them that the edit summaries of /Temp suggest are copyvios. Should I delete them? Bryan 02:51, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I just came across this article almost by accident, while I was looking for some mention in WP of the earlier Fulbright Hearings, back in 1966-7. Amazingly, there seems to be no mention whatsoever anywhere in Wikipedia - not even in the Fulbright bio article! (Yes, I intend to rectify that situation... ) Wow - what gives??!! I am both stunned and appalled that those hearings have apparently been entirely omitted.
I see from the talk page for this article that there was some sort of discussion of Fulbright that was removed (correctly) because it went into a number of unrelated issues. But it seems to me that not including some concise historical context/background for the '71 hearings is doing a real disservice to the readers. I have a feeling that the original editors who labored on this article back in 2004-5 no longer have it watchlisted, but I'm hoping that somebody can tell me whether there was ever any reference to those earlier hearings in an older version of the article. Cgingold 16:56, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I was just wondering if we should add an article about Chris Matthews making small mention of these hearings because he referenced them on his show last night while talking about having hearings on Iraq. Let Me Finish... segment JoeMonkeyPotato ( talk) 00:27, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
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