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DDStretch (talk) 01:53, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
On 28 December, 88.106.165.31 deleted two complete sections from this article without any justification. I have reinstated the Famous people from Frodsham section. If anyone wants to put back the External links section you can find it on the old version of the page at [1].
Hebrides 14:03, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Does not Newton-by-Frodsham in the neighbouring parish of Kingsley, also qualify with Frodsham in the Parish of Frodsham for this most sought after title. Sorry to be pedantic but my edit to the Bodleian library seems to have been caught up in this fracas. Lucian Sunday ( talk) 13:45, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
In the case of "Newton by Frodsham", it disambiguates this name from "Newton by Chester", "Newton by Malpas", "Newton" (which was in Middlewich ancient parish), "Newton by Daresbury", and "Newton by Tattenhall", and possibly a few others (including a Newton now in Wirral which used to be in Cheshire up to 1974.) In some cases, the "by Y" component may have been absorbed to become part of the actual name, but this does not always happen. In the case of "Newton by Frodsham", the relevant OS 1:25000 Map (Sheet267, Northwich and Delamere) gives the name of the settlement and hall as simply "Newton". I think we can accept the OS 1:25000 Maps as being a reliable source.
As a selection of information about the other Cheshire Newton's: for "Newton by Daresbury", OS 1:25000 maps 267 and 275 (Liverpool, St. Helens, Widnes and Runcorn) don't show Newton by Daresbury as anything other than a scattered group of features, either called Newton, Newtonbank or Newton Cross; "Newton by Tattenhall" is also shown on the relevant OS 1:25000 map (Sheet 257, Crewe and Nantwich) sheet as "Newton", though the civil parish it is in is named "Newton by Tattenhall". "Newton by Malpas" is the name of the civil parish near to Malpas, whereas there appears no settlement called Newton, apart from Newton Hall and scattered farms in this civil parish (also Sheet 257 of the 1:25000 OS map.) So, the situation is not clear, though there may be a trend to name any civil parish "Newton by Y" to distinguish it from other civil parishes, whilst keeping the name of any contained settlements "Newton". So it needs to be carefully considered.
In the case of "Newton by Frodsham", I believe the evidence shows that the "by Frodsham" component is a disambiguator that has not been absorbed into the name. I hope that clarifies matters a little. DDStretch (talk) 14:44, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help) Similarly, we have the Rudheath Lordship (which was originally an
extra-parochial area, and was made up of portions of land of a similar status connected with Rudheath, though distributed over a larger area in different ancient parishes to the case of the Frodsham Lordship.) Frodsham is the name of the Lordship, and Rudheath is the name of a different Lordship. If one wishes to pursue the disambiguator interpretation (which I think it a bit much, since I was only writing about apparent names of the "X by Y" form) then it is "Frodsham" and "Rudheath" which would be assigned to the role of disambiguator in these cases, not "Lordship". If one is concerned with all things Frodsham, then the use of "Lordship" distinguishes it from Frodsham Township, where the two were intimately intertwined areas of land still within the general boundaries of Frodsham, and so "Lordship" and "Township" would be the disambiguators. Note that in the source you gave, this is almost implicit, and only not totally clear because the name "Frodsham Township" is simplified to just "Frodsham" because the column is labelled "Township", and by that time, "Frodsham Lordship" was actually classified as a township as well within the same ancient parish of Frodsham (the second column. See page 19 of this source for verification of this: Youngs, F. A. (1991). Guide to the local administrative units of England. (Volume 1: Northern England). London: Royal Historical Society.
ISBN
0861931270.) However, this is all of historical information, and does not detract from the disputed statement about Frodsham as it applies today and as it is written in the article. I can supply relevant reliable sources about this if so desired as well. Does that answer the question?
DDStretch
(talk)
17:33, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Coming here from a note at WT:UKGEO, my take on this is that " the threshold for inclusion is verifiability, not truth". Of course a healthy discussion can lead to a commonsense outcome that is otherwise, but I'd be inclined to keep the claim, as it seems to appear in a reliable source. -- Jza84 | Talk 21:53, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Since the problem is the supposed non-unique nature of the name "Frodsham", I've added a new footnote, fuilly verified, to the Etymology subsection (the names need updating to reflect WP:UKCITIES guidelines), that deals with the Newton by Frodsham case. I think it is a better solution. A less disputed source for the toponymy might be pages 221 to 222 of Dodgson, J. McN. (1971). The place-names of Cheshire. Part three: The place-names of Nantwich Hundred and Eddisbury Hundred. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0521080495., which I'll use when I get the time to rewrite this bit (assuming a better solution has not already been edited in.) The Dodgson book also quotes Ormerod (1882), Volume 2 page 46, (Ormerod, G. (1882). History of the county palatine of Chester. (3 Volumes) (Edition edited by Helsby, T ed.).) as saying that the Frodsham Lordship was that part of Frodsham that was retained by the Ranulph II (de Blunderville), Earl of Chester 1181–1232, when he granted borough status to Frodsham: The Victoria History of the county of Cheshire also verifies this. (Dodgson writes about the name Frodsham: "That part of the original manor, which the earl retained out of the borough, continued to be called the Lordship of Frodsham, but in the earliest references that designation applied to the whole of the two townships and they continued always as part of one manor." (Dodgson, J. McN. (1971). page 222.).) I hope that helps. DDStretch (talk) 23:06, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Is, Frodsham Townhall, were the original Take That auditions were held by Gary Barlow and Nigel Martin-Smith, as portrayed in Series two, Star Stories, the actual townhall or a fictional Frosham Townhall in the British Isles? Lucian Sunday ( talk) 21:14, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
...and Frodsham cake shop? Was the episode filmed in Frodsham? Lucian Sunday ( talk) 21:24, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
A lot of the names in here are unreferenced and their notability may be questioned. They fall into two groups from the point of view of Wikipedia: people who are not still alive, and people still alive. The first group can simply have the facts tagged, which I have done; however in the case of the second group, WP:BLP comes into play, and unreferenced claims need to be handled differently. What I have done is move those names here (below). This is to avoid deleting them. Once verification of the facts can be completed by citing a reliable source for the facts, they can be transferred back into the article. The citations should follow the style used in the article, and unsuitable references should be avoided (the names will just get transferred back here again.) Note that wikipedia cannot be used to verify itself, so if verification for the facts can be found in another wikipedia article, the reference(s) that verify the fact should be duplicated in this article, rather than relying on people following a link to another article which may change in the future. Thank you. DDStretch (talk) 09:34, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
This needs attention with material seemingly under the wrong headings eg certain history and geology items. And can someone fill in the middle bit of the town's history between 'early' and 'recent'? I'll get around to moving things around a little unless someone beats me to it. Geopersona ( talk) 18:30, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
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The town's four wards are named but then mention is made of other 'compass point' wards - cam someone address the confusion? thanks Geopersona ( talk) 06:01, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
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DDStretch (talk) 01:53, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
On 28 December, 88.106.165.31 deleted two complete sections from this article without any justification. I have reinstated the Famous people from Frodsham section. If anyone wants to put back the External links section you can find it on the old version of the page at [1].
Hebrides 14:03, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Does not Newton-by-Frodsham in the neighbouring parish of Kingsley, also qualify with Frodsham in the Parish of Frodsham for this most sought after title. Sorry to be pedantic but my edit to the Bodleian library seems to have been caught up in this fracas. Lucian Sunday ( talk) 13:45, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
In the case of "Newton by Frodsham", it disambiguates this name from "Newton by Chester", "Newton by Malpas", "Newton" (which was in Middlewich ancient parish), "Newton by Daresbury", and "Newton by Tattenhall", and possibly a few others (including a Newton now in Wirral which used to be in Cheshire up to 1974.) In some cases, the "by Y" component may have been absorbed to become part of the actual name, but this does not always happen. In the case of "Newton by Frodsham", the relevant OS 1:25000 Map (Sheet267, Northwich and Delamere) gives the name of the settlement and hall as simply "Newton". I think we can accept the OS 1:25000 Maps as being a reliable source.
As a selection of information about the other Cheshire Newton's: for "Newton by Daresbury", OS 1:25000 maps 267 and 275 (Liverpool, St. Helens, Widnes and Runcorn) don't show Newton by Daresbury as anything other than a scattered group of features, either called Newton, Newtonbank or Newton Cross; "Newton by Tattenhall" is also shown on the relevant OS 1:25000 map (Sheet 257, Crewe and Nantwich) sheet as "Newton", though the civil parish it is in is named "Newton by Tattenhall". "Newton by Malpas" is the name of the civil parish near to Malpas, whereas there appears no settlement called Newton, apart from Newton Hall and scattered farms in this civil parish (also Sheet 257 of the 1:25000 OS map.) So, the situation is not clear, though there may be a trend to name any civil parish "Newton by Y" to distinguish it from other civil parishes, whilst keeping the name of any contained settlements "Newton". So it needs to be carefully considered.
In the case of "Newton by Frodsham", I believe the evidence shows that the "by Frodsham" component is a disambiguator that has not been absorbed into the name. I hope that clarifies matters a little. DDStretch (talk) 14:44, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help) Similarly, we have the Rudheath Lordship (which was originally an
extra-parochial area, and was made up of portions of land of a similar status connected with Rudheath, though distributed over a larger area in different ancient parishes to the case of the Frodsham Lordship.) Frodsham is the name of the Lordship, and Rudheath is the name of a different Lordship. If one wishes to pursue the disambiguator interpretation (which I think it a bit much, since I was only writing about apparent names of the "X by Y" form) then it is "Frodsham" and "Rudheath" which would be assigned to the role of disambiguator in these cases, not "Lordship". If one is concerned with all things Frodsham, then the use of "Lordship" distinguishes it from Frodsham Township, where the two were intimately intertwined areas of land still within the general boundaries of Frodsham, and so "Lordship" and "Township" would be the disambiguators. Note that in the source you gave, this is almost implicit, and only not totally clear because the name "Frodsham Township" is simplified to just "Frodsham" because the column is labelled "Township", and by that time, "Frodsham Lordship" was actually classified as a township as well within the same ancient parish of Frodsham (the second column. See page 19 of this source for verification of this: Youngs, F. A. (1991). Guide to the local administrative units of England. (Volume 1: Northern England). London: Royal Historical Society.
ISBN
0861931270.) However, this is all of historical information, and does not detract from the disputed statement about Frodsham as it applies today and as it is written in the article. I can supply relevant reliable sources about this if so desired as well. Does that answer the question?
DDStretch
(talk)
17:33, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Coming here from a note at WT:UKGEO, my take on this is that " the threshold for inclusion is verifiability, not truth". Of course a healthy discussion can lead to a commonsense outcome that is otherwise, but I'd be inclined to keep the claim, as it seems to appear in a reliable source. -- Jza84 | Talk 21:53, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Since the problem is the supposed non-unique nature of the name "Frodsham", I've added a new footnote, fuilly verified, to the Etymology subsection (the names need updating to reflect WP:UKCITIES guidelines), that deals with the Newton by Frodsham case. I think it is a better solution. A less disputed source for the toponymy might be pages 221 to 222 of Dodgson, J. McN. (1971). The place-names of Cheshire. Part three: The place-names of Nantwich Hundred and Eddisbury Hundred. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0521080495., which I'll use when I get the time to rewrite this bit (assuming a better solution has not already been edited in.) The Dodgson book also quotes Ormerod (1882), Volume 2 page 46, (Ormerod, G. (1882). History of the county palatine of Chester. (3 Volumes) (Edition edited by Helsby, T ed.).) as saying that the Frodsham Lordship was that part of Frodsham that was retained by the Ranulph II (de Blunderville), Earl of Chester 1181–1232, when he granted borough status to Frodsham: The Victoria History of the county of Cheshire also verifies this. (Dodgson writes about the name Frodsham: "That part of the original manor, which the earl retained out of the borough, continued to be called the Lordship of Frodsham, but in the earliest references that designation applied to the whole of the two townships and they continued always as part of one manor." (Dodgson, J. McN. (1971). page 222.).) I hope that helps. DDStretch (talk) 23:06, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Is, Frodsham Townhall, were the original Take That auditions were held by Gary Barlow and Nigel Martin-Smith, as portrayed in Series two, Star Stories, the actual townhall or a fictional Frosham Townhall in the British Isles? Lucian Sunday ( talk) 21:14, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
...and Frodsham cake shop? Was the episode filmed in Frodsham? Lucian Sunday ( talk) 21:24, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
A lot of the names in here are unreferenced and their notability may be questioned. They fall into two groups from the point of view of Wikipedia: people who are not still alive, and people still alive. The first group can simply have the facts tagged, which I have done; however in the case of the second group, WP:BLP comes into play, and unreferenced claims need to be handled differently. What I have done is move those names here (below). This is to avoid deleting them. Once verification of the facts can be completed by citing a reliable source for the facts, they can be transferred back into the article. The citations should follow the style used in the article, and unsuitable references should be avoided (the names will just get transferred back here again.) Note that wikipedia cannot be used to verify itself, so if verification for the facts can be found in another wikipedia article, the reference(s) that verify the fact should be duplicated in this article, rather than relying on people following a link to another article which may change in the future. Thank you. DDStretch (talk) 09:34, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
This needs attention with material seemingly under the wrong headings eg certain history and geology items. And can someone fill in the middle bit of the town's history between 'early' and 'recent'? I'll get around to moving things around a little unless someone beats me to it. Geopersona ( talk) 18:30, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
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The town's four wards are named but then mention is made of other 'compass point' wards - cam someone address the confusion? thanks Geopersona ( talk) 06:01, 10 September 2021 (UTC)