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Bill, I am the "someone" who added links to ItalianVisits.com on the various Italian Regional sites - and I don't think I was commiting "link spam" or engaged in vandalism when I did so. ItalianVisits.com is a serious endeavour being undertaken by my daughter, Jesse Andrews, who for the past 2 years has been living in Praia A Mare, in the northwest region of Calabria. My other daughter, Arianna, is attending university at the University for Foreigners in Perugia, and also contributes to the ItalianVisits website when she can.
If you look at the section on Calabria, you will see how much work and effort has been put into cataloguing towns and villages that are virtually unknown to English-speaking people, whether they are travelers or tourists, or people who have a curiousity about the area. You will note, I hope, the abundance of wonderful photographs that compliment the text, and present our viewers with images that otherwise would not be available. Incidentally, you should also note the link to Wikipedia resources whereever and whenever there is material on Wikidpedia about a region, town or other locale. We are as committed to Wikipedia as you are.
Jesse has created a vessel into which more information is being added every day. I just spent 15 days in Umbria, for instance, and added pages for Perugia, Assisi, Spello, Bevagna, Gubbio and the Regional Park at Colfiorito. Other contributors, like Katherine Lavallee, have added information about other towns in Tuscany. Such contributions are solicited eagerly so that we can fatten the content on the site.
ItalianVisits.com is hardly a come-on for selling tour packages, although we are trying to attract people to "unknown" parts of Italy, and in so doing, get some business to those out of the way places for local restauranteurs, hoteliers, and others in the travel business. If you are aware of what is going on in Italy now, you will understand that the economy is depressed, owing largely to various difficulties it has and is facing as it tries to integrate with the EU, and as it attempts to compete in a global economy. So, having information for travelers can not be the sine qua non of "link spam". If you look at all the external links listed in the Umbria section of Wikipedia, a number of them are active promoters of travel to the Region. Even in the Sardegna section where you posted identical comments to the comments you made here there is a link to a site called ActivSardegna which promotes travel. Should all of these be removed? And if so, by whom and under what (hopefully) reasonably well-defined policy?
You can coin or use phrases like "link spam", and "cyber vandalism", or other terms of denigration, but I think you, and others who "worry" about Wikipedia, should be careful not to sit on Wikipedia with a holier than thou attitude, deleting other people's contributions, unless a more thorough investigation is done into the content, and sometimes into the motives and objectives of their creators. Many people spend a lot of time, money and energy trying to do good without much reward beyond the satisfactions it provides. This effort to "do good" is manifest on your site Bill, at least, so far as I can see, and I commend you for it.
I'm a bit more than a little chagrined about what you have done Bill, and about how you have characterized ItalianVisits, but I hope we can discuss this if you think I am making an untenable argument in favour of allowing us to post links to the IV website, without fear of having them removed by the over-zealous.
Regards Vian Andrews Vancouver, BC July 28, 2005
In the article dealing with the regions of Italy in the english version of Wikipedia, five autonomous regions are mentioned. This very article, however, counts only four. Is someone perhaps forgetting about Aosta Valley, or excluding that region for some specific reason?
It is desirable that Wikipedia strives to accomplish a higher degree of mutual accordance and/or stringency of expression in this particular aspect, I would say.
JG, Gothenburg, Sweden, 26th of April, 2006
{{Cleanup|date=May 2007}} This was put on a few years ago. A lot of work has been done since then. Unfortunately the tag is so general I can't tell what needed to be cleaned up. All WP articles except for a few thousand of the very best need clean-up. There is nothing in the discussion. Therefore I am tentatively removing the tag. If you find something specific intolerable tag it or if you want a general tag put a section in here saying what. That's fair, don't you think? Of course all of us continue to clean these articles all the time. General tags like this hold up the works; nobody can tell when the work is complete. Ciao. Dave ( talk) 01:39, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Hello, I want to draw your attention to the fact that the name of the Italian administrative region Friuli-Venezia Giulia was officially changed into Friuli Venezia Giulia in 2001. I have added this information to the article Friuli-Venezia Giulia an hour or so ago. As this name change affects a lot of other articles, I would like to ask how we should handle this... Best regards, berberandberber, Sept. 11 2014
That's not entirely true. In 2001 the name was changed only in one list of the Italian regions within the Italian Constitution, but the bill didn't mean to change this region denomination. In fact, in all other parts of the Constitution, where the region is mentioned, the old hyphenated denomination is still used (Friuli - Venezia Giulia), because all constitutional laws are at the same level of legislative hierarchy and a change in one constitutional article doesn't affect the entire Constitution, unless the change was meant to have such an effect, but this wasn't the case. Also, at the national level the old denomination is used. Sorry if it's a bit obscure, but I'm not a lawyer. I only tried to express the idea.
Best regards, PaoloZ, Dec. 21 2017
The result of the move request was: No clear consensus. Oppose uncountered for about a week — Andy W. ( talk) 05:42, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
Friuli-Venezia Giulia → Friuli Venezia Giulia – The dashless form, official in Italian since 2001, seems to be prevalent in recent English literature as well. It's a bit hard to establish, but Gbooks search appears to slightly favor it. At the top of the google:Friuli-Venezia Giulia are mostly dashless English results. However, I grant that the dash-form beats the no-dash-form some 5:1 in ngram. No such user ( talk) 12:29, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
a union of two cities, requiring an n-dash? No such user ( talk) 13:04, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
I've made the article internally consistent by using the n-dash throughout, since internal uniformity is regarded a virtue in Wikipedia, but I support omitting it (and the hyphen). I notice that the article on Italian Wikipedia now omits it, as do all the external links in our article, including the official sites. Vzeebjtf ( talk) 07:01, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
Vzeebjtf: I'm afraid that you're wrong with that ndash, and User:SMcCandlish was wrong to change his mind about it. Please refer to Talk:Bourgogne-Franche-Comté#Requested move 29 July 2018: ndash should be used only in ad hoc conjunctions, and once the two items are merged into a single unit, as is the case here, hyphen is normally used. I'm not 100% positive myself, and some broader MOS discussion is maybe called for, but we need to check what the most prestigious English publications do about this and similar cases. No such user ( talk) 21:12, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
No particular answer is "correct" in some objective sense, but I still think that MoS is simply not clear about the issue, so it does not even have an answer how we should style Friuli-Venezia Giulia, and you have changed your mind yourself about the issue. I was hoping that there is some authoritative MoS out there (Chicago or whatever) whose recommendation we might follow and adapt, rather than engage in theological interpretation of vague examples in our MoS. No such user ( talk) 13:22, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. ( closed by page mover) Simplexity22 ( talk) 17:22, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
Friuli-Venezia Giulia →
Friuli Venezia Giulia – The official name changed in 2001. (The same request was made recently, and closed owing to lack of consensus, but there was very little interest; it's worth revisiting, I think.)
Vzeebjtf (
talk)
03:29, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) B dash ( talk) 04:51, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
Friuli-Venezia Giulia →
Friuli Venezia Giulia – Since 2001, the official name in Italian is is without the hyphen. See the "Name" section in the article. Move is blocked by a redirect with no significant edit history.
Jorge Stolfi (
talk)
12:10, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
Eminot? Vzeebjtf ( talk) 00:21, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus: I'm closing this as "no consensus" as the discussion in this RM doesn't appear to have produced a consensus on what is the best name to move the article to. I'll recommend further discussion to create a consensus on this issue. ( non-admin closure) Spekkios ( talk) 03:24, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
Friuli Venezia Giulia → Friuli-Venezia Giulia – The region is commonly named this way, with the hyphen, as it includes two historically distinct entities, Friuli and Venezia Giulia. It is no surprise, that the it.Wikipedia article is named "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" and that all the largest Wikipedias (es.Wikipedia, pt.Wikipedia, fr.Wikipedia, de.Wikipedia, etc) feature articles on the subject with names including the hyphen. Checco ( talk) 17:02, 22 February 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 06:42, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
@ User:Spekkios: The article was moved in 2019 without a strong consensus and contradicting the official sources, which use the "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" form, and WP:Most common name. Can you explain me why the wrongly-decided 2019 move should stay? -- Checco ( talk) 15:06, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
I read:
OK, got it. Fine so far; however, the sentence continues:
Why "still"? -- Hoary ( talk) 07:32, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Bensci54 ( talk) 18:35, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
Friuli Venezia Giulia → Friuli-Venezia Giulia – As anyone can see above, the previous three requested moves did not show strong support for the current name, "Friuli Venezia Giulia". After an interesting discussion on the issue at Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/Tasks#Friuli Venezia Giulia, I am proposing once again to move the article back to its original and most common name, "Friuli-Venezia Giulia". Please note that "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" is not only the most common name, but also the official one. Indeed, the Italian Constitution mentions the region twice and in both cases as "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" (see articles 116 and 131). Moreover, all Italian laws mentioning the region refer to it as "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" (see here). These notably include the ongoing process of reviewing the regional statute (see here). Finally, the official version of the latter, according to the Italian Government, features "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" (see here) and, interestingly enough, also the regional council has the hyphen in its online (see articles 1 and the following). Moving the article back to "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" would match the names of the other two regions with composite names, Emilia-Romagna and Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. The three regions are composed of two historically distinct entities, in our case Friuli and Venezia Giulia. It is no surprise then that the it.Wikipedia article is named "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" and that all the largest Wikipedias (es.Wikipedia, pt.Wikipedia, fr.Wikipedia, de.Wikipedia, etc.) feature articles on the subject with names including the hyphen. -- Checco ( talk) 14:14, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
@ User:DreamRimmer: Would you help me to fix this? I do not see it among Wikipedia:Requested moves. -- Checco ( talk) 14:40, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
These messages were originally posted on my talk page:
I am answering here because the issue is of general interest. As far as I now, double redirects should be fixed ( Wikipedia:Double redirects), while there is no similar duty on redirects in general ( Wikipedia:Redirect). When one user moves an article and, by doing that, he/she creates double redirects, he has to fix them. In our case, I was the proponent of the move, but the move was decided through a Requested move, and, as far as I see, there are no double redirects pointing to this article. This said, despite redirects being acceptable in Wikipedia, it is my personal sensibility not to like them. I thus fix them when I find them and, in our case, I fixed selected instances. Most importantly, all articles, templates and categories featuring "Friuli Venezia Giulia" instead of "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" should be moved consistently to this article's name. I much appreciate what you have been doing, but, realistically, to fix all instances, we need a bot. I made a request at Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/Tasks#Friuli Venezia Giulia, but my request was rejected. This said, I strongly disagree with you when you say that "it would have been better not to intervene and leave everything as it was". The main thing was to have the correct name, meaning the most common one and the official one, for this article, and I am glad that this article was finally moved back to its original name, "Friuli-Venezia Giulia". -- Checco ( talk) 06:48, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Friuli-Venezia Giulia article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
Discussions:
|
Bill, I am the "someone" who added links to ItalianVisits.com on the various Italian Regional sites - and I don't think I was commiting "link spam" or engaged in vandalism when I did so. ItalianVisits.com is a serious endeavour being undertaken by my daughter, Jesse Andrews, who for the past 2 years has been living in Praia A Mare, in the northwest region of Calabria. My other daughter, Arianna, is attending university at the University for Foreigners in Perugia, and also contributes to the ItalianVisits website when she can.
If you look at the section on Calabria, you will see how much work and effort has been put into cataloguing towns and villages that are virtually unknown to English-speaking people, whether they are travelers or tourists, or people who have a curiousity about the area. You will note, I hope, the abundance of wonderful photographs that compliment the text, and present our viewers with images that otherwise would not be available. Incidentally, you should also note the link to Wikipedia resources whereever and whenever there is material on Wikidpedia about a region, town or other locale. We are as committed to Wikipedia as you are.
Jesse has created a vessel into which more information is being added every day. I just spent 15 days in Umbria, for instance, and added pages for Perugia, Assisi, Spello, Bevagna, Gubbio and the Regional Park at Colfiorito. Other contributors, like Katherine Lavallee, have added information about other towns in Tuscany. Such contributions are solicited eagerly so that we can fatten the content on the site.
ItalianVisits.com is hardly a come-on for selling tour packages, although we are trying to attract people to "unknown" parts of Italy, and in so doing, get some business to those out of the way places for local restauranteurs, hoteliers, and others in the travel business. If you are aware of what is going on in Italy now, you will understand that the economy is depressed, owing largely to various difficulties it has and is facing as it tries to integrate with the EU, and as it attempts to compete in a global economy. So, having information for travelers can not be the sine qua non of "link spam". If you look at all the external links listed in the Umbria section of Wikipedia, a number of them are active promoters of travel to the Region. Even in the Sardegna section where you posted identical comments to the comments you made here there is a link to a site called ActivSardegna which promotes travel. Should all of these be removed? And if so, by whom and under what (hopefully) reasonably well-defined policy?
You can coin or use phrases like "link spam", and "cyber vandalism", or other terms of denigration, but I think you, and others who "worry" about Wikipedia, should be careful not to sit on Wikipedia with a holier than thou attitude, deleting other people's contributions, unless a more thorough investigation is done into the content, and sometimes into the motives and objectives of their creators. Many people spend a lot of time, money and energy trying to do good without much reward beyond the satisfactions it provides. This effort to "do good" is manifest on your site Bill, at least, so far as I can see, and I commend you for it.
I'm a bit more than a little chagrined about what you have done Bill, and about how you have characterized ItalianVisits, but I hope we can discuss this if you think I am making an untenable argument in favour of allowing us to post links to the IV website, without fear of having them removed by the over-zealous.
Regards Vian Andrews Vancouver, BC July 28, 2005
In the article dealing with the regions of Italy in the english version of Wikipedia, five autonomous regions are mentioned. This very article, however, counts only four. Is someone perhaps forgetting about Aosta Valley, or excluding that region for some specific reason?
It is desirable that Wikipedia strives to accomplish a higher degree of mutual accordance and/or stringency of expression in this particular aspect, I would say.
JG, Gothenburg, Sweden, 26th of April, 2006
{{Cleanup|date=May 2007}} This was put on a few years ago. A lot of work has been done since then. Unfortunately the tag is so general I can't tell what needed to be cleaned up. All WP articles except for a few thousand of the very best need clean-up. There is nothing in the discussion. Therefore I am tentatively removing the tag. If you find something specific intolerable tag it or if you want a general tag put a section in here saying what. That's fair, don't you think? Of course all of us continue to clean these articles all the time. General tags like this hold up the works; nobody can tell when the work is complete. Ciao. Dave ( talk) 01:39, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Hello, I want to draw your attention to the fact that the name of the Italian administrative region Friuli-Venezia Giulia was officially changed into Friuli Venezia Giulia in 2001. I have added this information to the article Friuli-Venezia Giulia an hour or so ago. As this name change affects a lot of other articles, I would like to ask how we should handle this... Best regards, berberandberber, Sept. 11 2014
That's not entirely true. In 2001 the name was changed only in one list of the Italian regions within the Italian Constitution, but the bill didn't mean to change this region denomination. In fact, in all other parts of the Constitution, where the region is mentioned, the old hyphenated denomination is still used (Friuli - Venezia Giulia), because all constitutional laws are at the same level of legislative hierarchy and a change in one constitutional article doesn't affect the entire Constitution, unless the change was meant to have such an effect, but this wasn't the case. Also, at the national level the old denomination is used. Sorry if it's a bit obscure, but I'm not a lawyer. I only tried to express the idea.
Best regards, PaoloZ, Dec. 21 2017
The result of the move request was: No clear consensus. Oppose uncountered for about a week — Andy W. ( talk) 05:42, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
Friuli-Venezia Giulia → Friuli Venezia Giulia – The dashless form, official in Italian since 2001, seems to be prevalent in recent English literature as well. It's a bit hard to establish, but Gbooks search appears to slightly favor it. At the top of the google:Friuli-Venezia Giulia are mostly dashless English results. However, I grant that the dash-form beats the no-dash-form some 5:1 in ngram. No such user ( talk) 12:29, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
a union of two cities, requiring an n-dash? No such user ( talk) 13:04, 5 May 2017 (UTC)
I've made the article internally consistent by using the n-dash throughout, since internal uniformity is regarded a virtue in Wikipedia, but I support omitting it (and the hyphen). I notice that the article on Italian Wikipedia now omits it, as do all the external links in our article, including the official sites. Vzeebjtf ( talk) 07:01, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
Vzeebjtf: I'm afraid that you're wrong with that ndash, and User:SMcCandlish was wrong to change his mind about it. Please refer to Talk:Bourgogne-Franche-Comté#Requested move 29 July 2018: ndash should be used only in ad hoc conjunctions, and once the two items are merged into a single unit, as is the case here, hyphen is normally used. I'm not 100% positive myself, and some broader MOS discussion is maybe called for, but we need to check what the most prestigious English publications do about this and similar cases. No such user ( talk) 21:12, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
No particular answer is "correct" in some objective sense, but I still think that MoS is simply not clear about the issue, so it does not even have an answer how we should style Friuli-Venezia Giulia, and you have changed your mind yourself about the issue. I was hoping that there is some authoritative MoS out there (Chicago or whatever) whose recommendation we might follow and adapt, rather than engage in theological interpretation of vague examples in our MoS. No such user ( talk) 13:22, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. ( closed by page mover) Simplexity22 ( talk) 17:22, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
Friuli-Venezia Giulia →
Friuli Venezia Giulia – The official name changed in 2001. (The same request was made recently, and closed owing to lack of consensus, but there was very little interest; it's worth revisiting, I think.)
Vzeebjtf (
talk)
03:29, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) B dash ( talk) 04:51, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
Friuli-Venezia Giulia →
Friuli Venezia Giulia – Since 2001, the official name in Italian is is without the hyphen. See the "Name" section in the article. Move is blocked by a redirect with no significant edit history.
Jorge Stolfi (
talk)
12:10, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
Eminot? Vzeebjtf ( talk) 00:21, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus: I'm closing this as "no consensus" as the discussion in this RM doesn't appear to have produced a consensus on what is the best name to move the article to. I'll recommend further discussion to create a consensus on this issue. ( non-admin closure) Spekkios ( talk) 03:24, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
Friuli Venezia Giulia → Friuli-Venezia Giulia – The region is commonly named this way, with the hyphen, as it includes two historically distinct entities, Friuli and Venezia Giulia. It is no surprise, that the it.Wikipedia article is named "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" and that all the largest Wikipedias (es.Wikipedia, pt.Wikipedia, fr.Wikipedia, de.Wikipedia, etc) feature articles on the subject with names including the hyphen. Checco ( talk) 17:02, 22 February 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 06:42, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
@ User:Spekkios: The article was moved in 2019 without a strong consensus and contradicting the official sources, which use the "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" form, and WP:Most common name. Can you explain me why the wrongly-decided 2019 move should stay? -- Checco ( talk) 15:06, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
I read:
OK, got it. Fine so far; however, the sentence continues:
Why "still"? -- Hoary ( talk) 07:32, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Bensci54 ( talk) 18:35, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
Friuli Venezia Giulia → Friuli-Venezia Giulia – As anyone can see above, the previous three requested moves did not show strong support for the current name, "Friuli Venezia Giulia". After an interesting discussion on the issue at Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/Tasks#Friuli Venezia Giulia, I am proposing once again to move the article back to its original and most common name, "Friuli-Venezia Giulia". Please note that "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" is not only the most common name, but also the official one. Indeed, the Italian Constitution mentions the region twice and in both cases as "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" (see articles 116 and 131). Moreover, all Italian laws mentioning the region refer to it as "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" (see here). These notably include the ongoing process of reviewing the regional statute (see here). Finally, the official version of the latter, according to the Italian Government, features "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" (see here) and, interestingly enough, also the regional council has the hyphen in its online (see articles 1 and the following). Moving the article back to "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" would match the names of the other two regions with composite names, Emilia-Romagna and Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. The three regions are composed of two historically distinct entities, in our case Friuli and Venezia Giulia. It is no surprise then that the it.Wikipedia article is named "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" and that all the largest Wikipedias (es.Wikipedia, pt.Wikipedia, fr.Wikipedia, de.Wikipedia, etc.) feature articles on the subject with names including the hyphen. -- Checco ( talk) 14:14, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
@ User:DreamRimmer: Would you help me to fix this? I do not see it among Wikipedia:Requested moves. -- Checco ( talk) 14:40, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
These messages were originally posted on my talk page:
I am answering here because the issue is of general interest. As far as I now, double redirects should be fixed ( Wikipedia:Double redirects), while there is no similar duty on redirects in general ( Wikipedia:Redirect). When one user moves an article and, by doing that, he/she creates double redirects, he has to fix them. In our case, I was the proponent of the move, but the move was decided through a Requested move, and, as far as I see, there are no double redirects pointing to this article. This said, despite redirects being acceptable in Wikipedia, it is my personal sensibility not to like them. I thus fix them when I find them and, in our case, I fixed selected instances. Most importantly, all articles, templates and categories featuring "Friuli Venezia Giulia" instead of "Friuli-Venezia Giulia" should be moved consistently to this article's name. I much appreciate what you have been doing, but, realistically, to fix all instances, we need a bot. I made a request at Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/Tasks#Friuli Venezia Giulia, but my request was rejected. This said, I strongly disagree with you when you say that "it would have been better not to intervene and leave everything as it was". The main thing was to have the correct name, meaning the most common one and the official one, for this article, and I am glad that this article was finally moved back to its original name, "Friuli-Venezia Giulia". -- Checco ( talk) 06:48, 14 December 2023 (UTC)