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"Zwicky **immediately** speculated (incorrectly, it turns out) that the effect was due not to motions of the galaxy, but to some **inexplicable** phenomena that **mysteriously** caused photons to lose energy"
That's a typical attempt at ridiculizing an explanation wich is not in line with what the maintream parrots. "Tired light" is a legitimate explanation and there's nothing "inexplicable" or "mysterious" about the mechanism. I suggest the sentence be reworded paying a bit more respect to objectivity.--
201.213.52.138 (
talk)
18:29, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Isn't the "rap" a little inappropriate and also a copyvio? — Keenan Pepper 23:01, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Herbm 02:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC) START: The article, especially the early section on Zwicky's life was argumentative and lacking the tone of an encyclopedia article. The thrust seemed to be that no one in the scientific establishment understood Zwicky, largely due to the incompetence of other scientists.
I toned this down, and remove some of the repetive claims to this effect. One small example is changing 'prophet' (in reference to Zwicky) to 'visionary'.
This article needs more work, and might easily become the basis of a revision war so the editors should be alerted (I could not quickly find a tag for this.)
One possibly controversial addition by me: I quoted the Science Channel (with attribution) broadcast which claimed Zwicky was a "borderline psychopath" and difficult to work with.
It was this reference on "Most of Our Universe is Missing" which led me to curiosity about Zwicky and it would be appropriate to either document the original sources of this claim, or refute them with facts.
END Herbm 02:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
The Science Channel just reran the above cited program, and it did indeed call him a "borderline psychotic". Anyone have any citations for this? 69.165.175.130 09:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Take a look at this sentence from the end of the "Life and Work" section.
...career.He was a fitness freak and used to amaze onlookers by doing onearmed push ups.
"Fitness Freak"? Is this something that belongs in a so called encyclopedia? Plus the person who added the line did not put in a double space after the end of the previous sentence. And "onearmed" is not a real word.
This article is still a mess. There are indications that much has been written by a modern day advocates of the "tired light model", which has no serious standing in astronomy at all. I've already deleted a paragraph about an alleged Mössbauer effect on photons in deep space, which is as silly a notion as you can possibly imagine. It was proposed by an amateur critic of modern cosmology, Lyndon Ashmore. Nothing of the kind can be found in the scientific literature. There is still a paragraph called "Feynman's explanation, rehabilitation of Zwicky", which is also extremely silly. It is presented as if Feynman was supporting the tired light model, and Zwicky's ideas on tired light have regained credibility. This is ridiculous. The material cited to Feynman is makes no mention of Zwicky at all, but rather to the transmission of light in a medium like glass. This is also part of Lyndon Ashmore's confusions on Mössbauer effect, as he relates this to light passing through a thin plasma. The very first paragraph says that Zwicky is mainly known for tired light. That's false also. He's much better known for proposing dark matter; and probably better known for his observational work and for his proposal of gravitational lensing. Duae Quartunciae 10:42, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I hope our club could help a bit to do so. 84.158.112.69 11:42, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
This has no place in the article. Nothing about Zwicky's tired light proposal bears the slightest relation to the Mössbauer effect, which only occurs in solid crystals. The section refers to Lyndon Ashmore, with whom I am very familiar. He is a high school teacher with an amateur interest in reinventing most of cosmology, and has no credibility anywhere. He speaks of a Mössbauer effect in deep space plasmas, which is physically ludicrous; it is part of his unique proposal for tired light which conflicts with very elementary physics on conservation of momentum and energy, and has nothing to do with Zwicky. I don't know who put this there, but it is nothing but a plug for Lyndon's ludicrously incorrect theory that fails elementary physics. I will remove this section after dinner; this gives a bit of time for anyone to comment. Duae Quartunciae 08:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
OK. The deletion is done. Lyndon Ashmore showed up at the Bad Astronomy forum a couple of years ago, and had all the errors in his work explained to him at length by every other contributor. I was involved then, under the name "Sylas". You can see a sample post where I explain why Lyndon's work is unphysical, and unrelated to the Mössbauer effect. Check out msg #34 of thread and also read the rest of the thread if you really want to know more. Duae Quartunciae 09:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
We have a bad problem with this article in relation to tired light. I have deleted two sections which were especially badly supported and were, in fact, founded on totally unphysical crank science that has no publication record. There's lots more still here that is badly flawed. Tired light is a long since refuted idea in physics. It has no credibility. Modern day tired light advocates do not use Zwicky's model in any case; they propose unphysical interactions with matter particles in deep space. Frankly, nearly everything in this article starting from the section heading "Tired Light" right through to the section headed "Hubble's Meaning" should be deleted, and replaced with a brief description of what Zwicky himself actually proposed and the fact that it was never generally accepted and is now long since falsified. Most of the material I think should be deleted is actually an attempt to argue an extreme tired light model quite different to that of Zwicky, and one which is universally dismissed as nonsense by working astronomers. However, I don't want to do more drastic deletions until someone else can speak up -- preferably someone who is also at little bit familiar with astronomy. Or, if I get a vote of confidence from a few folks, I can go ahead with the deletion and the replacement as suggested here. Duae Quartunciae 11:03, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Here is a concrete proposal for a replacement section, entitled Tired Light.
Zwicky proposed that the cosmological redshift apparent in distant galaxies was due to some physical process that caused photons to gradually loose energy as they traveled through space. He considered the most likely candidate process to be a gravitational drag effect; in which photons lose energy in some way to the gravitational fields through which they pass. (Ref here to Zwicky 1929)
No way has ever been discovered to make this work, and the effect is now understood to be a consequence of the cosmological expansion of space. (Ref here to the Wikipedia article Tired Light.)
If no one objects and anyone approves, I'll make the replacement. Duae Quartunciae 11:28, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
New user "Cosmic Relief" has come to make some further changes. I am relieved to see that I'm not alone here! The change to the accelerating expansion paragraph is very good; I approve. Thank you. I disagree with your change to the Tired light section. Can you please talk about it? For instance, you add the word "was" inappropriately. I had said of redshift "is now" understood to be a consequence of the cosmological expansion of space. You replaced "is now" with "was". That is incorrect. The redshift is far and away now understand to be due to cosmological expansion. The number of scientists disputing this is tiny. The correct term as an accurate and neutral account of current knowledge remains as I expressed it previously. It is now understood to be cosmological expansion. Duae Quartunciae 13:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Another change by "Cosmic Relief" that I dispute in the tired light section. He adds a sentence as follows: "However, several workers (admittedly in the minority) have now taken this theory up again and proposed several possibilities." No citation is given. If you are referring to people like Lyndon Ashmore, who was cited in older versions of this page, then you are speaking of ideas that are trivially inconsistent with simple physics and invoke concepts that cannot apply in a plasma, and which have never been published in the scientific literature. Ashmore is a high school teacher with a self published book, a web page, and a paper riddled with very elementary errors published in a fringe journal with no credibility and no meaningful review process. This is not worthy of any mention at all. There are a few other mavericks like this; but as far as I know there is no credible process for tired light that has been proposed in recent years or which has had any impact whatsoever on the scientific community. I'm happy to talk about it, and don't doubt your sincerity. But I think this change is not warranted. Duae Quartunciae 13:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I need to tread carefully. "Cosmic Relief" is actually Lyndon Ashmore; spoke to me at the Bad Astronomy forum we both read. I am going to fix the changes to something I consider more reasonable, while taking some account of Cosmic relief's perspective. If we cannot reach an agreement then there are processes we can use to help arbitrate. Duae Quartunciae 13:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for drawing our attention to this article Sylas. I hadn't seen it before. However, there is nothing 'nonesensical' about Lyndonashmore's tired light model. Whilst we will not discuss it here, It remains THE most viable theory on the Hubble redshift."
Is reading links a too hard work???
PLEASE BE FAIR AND READ SOURCES AND LINKS wfc_k for 3 Astro-clubs (we have 1 Prof. and about 15 Dres and skilled physicians) 84.158.213.87 20:22, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I have checked over my comments, and am satisfied that they are confined to accurate statements of facts with respect to substance of proposals and the standing of the various ideas in physics. I do respect your good intentions, and will avoid attacking anyone as individuals. I will not refrained from identifying risible physics as trivially erroneous. Please accept also my good intentions in this, and realize you will have to work within a context where I respect you as persons, but consider your physics to be full of very trivial and basic errors. Duae Quartunciae 21:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
It is not appropriate to appeal to the support of individuals never identified by name. You mention a club and a professor; but nothing that could identify them. If they are relevant, please identify. If not, please refrain. You may of course invite them or anyone to speak anonymously on their own individual behalf. Duae Quartunciae 21:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
The fundamental issue here is that this has no relevance to Zwicky's ideas. It has no place in this biography. We have your assertion only that it has any relevance to transmission of light in deep space. This is an example of bad physics. Transmission in light involves no redshift of a tired light form; and unless you see Feynman himself making that association, your association with Feynams work on light in a crystal lattice with interactions to a lattice of bound electrons is not something you should associate with free electrons in a plasma on no other basis than your own assertion. Duae Quartunciae 21:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Incredibly, you guys have deleted outright the new material I provided that gave a link to Zwicky's own work in tired light in the references section! As a result of your deletion of all the work I provided, discussion of Zwicky's own papers are replaced with a lot of material developing proposals that Zwicky himself rejected on very basic physical grounds that remain valid today. The link you removed was On the Redshift of Spectral Lines through Interstellar Space, (Zwicky 1929). You now have that only in the list of papers, with no discussion of his work in the actual tired light section! On page 775, Zwicky considered the possibility of interactions with free electrons in interstallar space, and rejects this possibility because "any explanation based on a scattering processes like Compton effect or the Raman effect, etc, will be in a hopeless position..." THAT was Zwicky's view, and you have deleted the link and replaced with the very forms of process that Zwicky and indeed effectively the entire astronomical community consider to be physically impossible. Duae Quartunciae 22:44, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Different meanings are eliminated by all those who mean to know god's will?
The Mössbauer effect does not work in a plasma. It applies to gamma rays in solid crystal. The effects of the lattice are essential. If the German wiki says otherwise then it has a problem. One claim made by Lyndon Ashmore is that the Mössbauer effect involves straighline tranmissions. That's not true. Photons get scattered in the Mössbauer effect, and they are emitted at extreme angles, without recoil of the much heavier lattice. This section should be deleted. It is a series of basic errors in physics; not "new physics" at all; and it has no relevance to Zwicky -- who correctly recognized as do effectively the entire scientific community today that tired light cannot arise from interactions of photons and electrons. The paper (Zwicky 1929) that I cited explicit considers this possibility and dismisses it. The same reasoning remains valid today, and is accepted today.
I would like to propose that we invite a third party to join this discussion; it is an informal request and it is a standard part of how Wikipedia deals with issues such as we are having here. It would be best if we can mutually agree that an a third party from Wikipedia has some potential to help. Are you agreeable? If there is no answer I'll go ahead and request someone come and have a look, but I would prefer that we can both agree this is a good step first. Duae Quartunciae 22:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
OK. I have already long since read the relevant papers and discussed the physics at length with Lyndon in other forums. We really do need third party help for how to manage this, and so I have placed a neutral request for someone to come and have a look. Duae Quartunciae 01:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I have flagged the tired light section as being subject to dispute. What I would like to do is replace the section as it stands, including all subsections, with the following two paragraphs:
Zwicky proposed that the cosmological redshift apparent in distant galaxies was due to some physical process that caused photons to gradually lose energy as they traveled through space. This is called tired light. He considered the most likely candidate process to be a gravitational drag effect; in which photons lose energy in some way to the gravitational fields through which they pass <ref>Zwicky, F. (1929). "On the Red Shift of Spectral Lines through Interstellar Space". PNAS. 15: 773–779. Full article (PDF)</ref>.
The cosmological redshift is now understood to be a consequence of the cosmological expansion of space; a feature of Big Bang cosmology. There are a handful of individuals who are still proposing variations of the tired light model, but it is no longer something considered seriously within the mainstream of modern astronomy.
I believe this is simple, neutrally stated, backed up with references for Zwicky's own work, and the second paragraph is backed up with well established and heavily discussed wikipedia articles. This is pretty much what I had given previously, before an anonymous editor just reverted everything right back to the mess I was trying to fix. All the additional stuff that has been included by the anonymous editor is original research because it makes associations between light transmission in crystal lattices with tired light in deep space; an association which is not made anywhere in reliable sources, and it is subject to accuracy dispute because of its basic errors in elementary physics and inconsistency with observation data (Wright, E., Errors in Tired Light Cosmology, UCLA Div. of Astronomy and Astrophysics). It seems to be an attempt to insert a modern fringe theory into a biography of an astronomer who never used them, and indeed who explicitly rejected the style of approach being pushed here now as a "hopeless position" (Zwicky 1929).
My understanding of wikipedia is the recent activity of the anonymous editor has been a Partial Revert, and should been discussed before being implemented. My proposed edit here is also a revert; and so I want to get some kind of agreement or authority before going ahead. I have linked extensively to Wikipedia editing guidelines, but I would also appreciate guidance here for how to manage this problem from an experienced Wikipedia editor. Duae Quartunciae 06:13, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I did not read through all of the comments here, but I did briefly looked at this article. The "tired light" section has been given undue weight compared to the other material, especially since Zwicky is much better known now for his other contributions than for this specific theory. Moreover, most of this discussion is not about Zwicky's work in the field but instead about the theory in general, and it should be placed in the tired light article.
The paragraph proposed by Duae Quartunciae seems to be appropriate, although it could explain Zwicky's proposal in slightly more detail, and it could include a reference for the last paragraph. (I bet Peebles's book has something.) Once modified, this section should replace the current "Tired light" section in this article.
If the anonymous editor does not agree with this and does not discuss the issue here, then it may be appropriate to semi-protect the page (see WP:RFP). Dr. Submillimeter 11:48, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
The Ashmore-ideology should be excluded from this page because of WP:UNDUE. -- Mainstream astronomy 13:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
NOT SEEN?: Indeed Mössbauer effect is also in German WIKI priory seen in crystals, but only because therein it can be logically explained very good (see to this again below Feynman and Asmore in summary)! Feynma: It is NOT only valid in cristals, but also in ohter transparent media as glass!!! Nobody knows why he wrote!
1. ZWICKY is in the world mainly known for Tired light, less for only now relevant dark matter. He is no mainstream and according to WIKI alternatives and critcis should be mentioned and validated.
wfc_k 84.158.220.75 14:32, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
2. EINSTEIN, well known everywhere and already linked: He cannot understand PLANCK but PLANCK was right!
3. FEYNMAN, indeed the best in physics I ever read at my German university DARMSTADT! He was better understandable, even in another language for me!
4. ZWICKY is no mainstream and is now defenseless like other good old physicians. We need certainly a revision to better English but also for a serious alternative content??? We would like to have your and others help!!! Experts in our clubs are only here weekly and now began vacancies, therefore I write you what I know meanwhile.
5. ASHMORE - a fan of TIRED LIGHT, defamed as Halton Arp and above linked hundreds of physicians as only only one against mainstream - he writes, correctly linked and cited in our article, resumed here:
...because the stubborn and very strange but - by all old physicians so seen - simply genial ZWICKY can no more defend himself and as dead he needs certainly a little bit objective help - or not?
I cannot always answer because it is the club's PC and vacancies began over here – since an awful extern computer attack now with dynamic IP, sorry!!!
Thanks for at least trying to be objective. Could you please see that non standard must not be defamed as nonsense because students only learn the Mainstream (especially, we badly affected Germans should be carefully and not swim always with the mainstreams)?
Thanks for trying to read all our links to understand that dead people need a little bit of help - or not? wfc_k 84.158.250.191 14:01, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
: Please look all former links of former article, but seriously. 84.158.227.216
See answers and links as evidences. wfc_k (not completely anonymous but our club-PC was affected by a hard attack, even redirected to some "sexy sites", sorry, sorry but I cannot change adminisrtator's caution) wfc_k 84.158.248.83 14:38, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
REMINDER OF REMINDER: ARTICLE WAS OUR ORIGINAL RESEACH, 85%! PLEASE READ ALL (OFFICIAL) LINKS:
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America (PNAS) Sorry, but do you really mean that well known official publications must be published again now in [3]??? Please Read the former original ZWICKY jumping in 3 months to first research places and look to the poor man above missing the first serios information auout tired light (here becoming more and more serious alternative to Big bang) wfc_k 84.158.223.153 15:12, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
THIRD PHONE IN 2 WEEKS: Our > 85 y.o old (now) French Professor (after near 2 years in other parts a known successful author and WIKI-initiator) phoned me now again and said: I should give up to fight against Big-bang-windmills to save my health. So I will do, will go home 20 miles away from our club, go in vacancy as well really to save my health. People of our 3 clubs had made or enhanced at least 30 WIKI articles and spent money to WIKI and now resign TO BE:BOLD. Sinc 3 month none wrote himself (frustration of steady rv?). - Sorry I am only a "normal" Ing. educated in Univ. Darmstadt in physics and electrotechnics, then systemprogrammer, now impeded by accident - but I was only the writer for a good will...
I must confirm now: I should myself join now the meanwhile about 200 scientists and related people in [ An Open Letter to the Scientific Community]!-??? wfc_k 84.158.225.35 16:21, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I submit for consideration the following as content in the Tired Light section. Note that I would ammend the references to be links to the Notes and References section:
Zwicky proposed that the cosmological redshift apparent in distant galaxies was due to some physical process that caused photons to gradually lose energy as they traveled through space. This is called tired light. He considered the most likely candidate process to be a drag effect in which photons transfer momentum to surrounding masses though gravitational interactions; and proposed that an attempt be made to put this effect on a sound theoretical footing with general relativity (Zwicky 1929). He also considered and rejected explanations involving interactions with free electrons, or the expansion of space (Zwicky 1929).
Zwicky had good reason to be skeptical of the expansion of space in 1929, because the rates measured at that time were far too large. It was not until 1956 that Walter Baade corrected the distance scale based on Cepheid variable stars, and ushered in the first accurate measures of the expansion rate (Baade 1956). Cosmological redshift is now conventionally understood to be a consequence of the expansion of space; a feature of Big Bang cosmology.
References:
Zwicky, F. (1929). "On the Red Shift of Spectral Lines through Interstellar Space". PNAS. 15: 773–779. Full article (PDF)
Baade, W. (1956), "The Period-Luminosity Relation of the Cepheids", Publications of the Astronomical Society of the Pacific, 68 (400): 5–16
-- Duae Quartunciae 15:30, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
When
Edwin Hubble discovered a linear relationship between the distance to a galaxy and and its redshift expressed as a velocity[1], Zwicky immediately proposed that the effect was due not to motions of the galaxy, but to some physical process that caused photons to lose energy as they traveled through space. He considered the most likely candidate process to be a drag effect in which photons transfer momentum to surrounding masses though gravitational interactions; and proposed that an attempt be made to put this effect on a sound theoretical footing with general relativity. He also considered and rejected explanations involving interactions with free electrons, or the expansion of space[2].
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I have removed the tag indicating that the tired light section is under dispute, because I have done a lot of work since then, and now consider that the whole biography is more or less fixed. I've added a couple of sections; in particular Zwicky's humanitarian work and the section "Guns and Goblins" which aims to look at some of his more unconventional ideas. The list of publications is perhaps too long; but basically this was the kind of material added in place when I started editing. I've subsectioned it, and put it all into a good citation formation, with links. This means I have stopped editing for the time being. -- Duae Quartunciae 15:46, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Tired light is an important part of Zwicky's work. What Sylas has done here is to censor the article to basically discredit Zwicky's brilliant idea. That is he wants to leave the prediction in but omit the evidence that later proved him correct. There are several new proposals on Zwicky's ideas - all of them published in peer reviewed, scientific journals. Why should Sylas call them 'crank?' If academics around the world have said they are of sufficient interest to be published, then why should he (Sylas) alone decide that he knows better and should delete these references? There are several popints here that Sylas has missed. i) Zwicky proposes a tired light theory and an exponential Hubble diagram. ii) He also proposes that Supernovae could act as standard candles. iii) other workers at a later date continue his work and come up with good physical explanations as to why tired light is responsible for the redsahift normally put down to expansion. iv) ashmore shows that the Hubble constant itself is related to electron parameters and explains why http://www.lyndonashmore.com (ashmore's paradox) H = hr/m per cubic metre of space v) suopernovae data show an exponential Hubble diagram. Zwicky suggested tired light. He suggested supernovae as standard candles. It these supernovae that later prove his own theory correct. That is why these points must remain here on this site. Cosmic relief 11:27, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
A new editor 65.11.156.143 has made some useful changes to the tired light section. However, two of the changes are not accurate, I think, so I have done a partial revert. They could be restored if given a citation. -- Duae Quartunciae 21:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the phrase saying that more accurate measurements of expansion rate effectively falsified tired light. It would be more correct that they restored the credibility of expanding space explanation, as they allowed for an older universe consistent with the age of the Earth and of stars. The reference associated with the sentence also does not support the added claim. Tired light was actually falsified by the lack of the any distortion in images and by observations of time stretching of the same scale of tired light; these are not really associated with more accurate measurement of the rate of expansion. ( diff) -- Duae Quartunciae 21:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I have reverted a comment about Zwicky's original tired light proposal (partial revert). I could be wrong about this; but I'd like to see a citation before the proposed change is applied. The editor 65.11.156.143 suggests that right back in 1929, Zwicky's tired light proposal was was dismissed by the scientific community. That could be true enough; but the reference given with that sentence does not support that claim. In fact, all explanations at that time were problematic, including expansion, due to the rate being measured incorrectly. I have for the time being reverted to a statement about the particular proposals Zwicky himself rejected, because this is supported in the reference. ( diff) -- Duae Quartunciae 21:22, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I added some poorely known contribution of Zwicky's mistaken hypothesis of tired light to understanding of general relativity. It might be kind of funny that a wrong idea provides a material to improve another theory but it's just like it is... Jim 16:17, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
What's with the glowing description of his wife: "Extremely intelligent, independent, private, rich and beautiful"? Seriously, what a weird description for an encyclopedia. - 69.47.186.226 22:35, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
"Fritz Zwicky was born in Varna, Bulgaria, to Swiss parents. His father was the Bulgarian ambassador to Norway. " Could there be some explanation of why the bulgarian ambassador to norway was swiss? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.2.40.144 ( talk) 21:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello. I'm wondering if we can tell that he is "of Bulgarian origin". Well, he was born in Varna, but his parents are Swiss, he moved to Switzerland at the age of 6, and he worked mainly in the US. Also, the categories "Bulgarian astronomers" and "Bulgarian Americans" look me inappropriate. -- PetaRZ ( talk) 20:59, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
The January 2009 issue of Discovery has an interview with Zwicky's daughter Barbarina. It would be good to add information from the interview to this article. She has attacked any and all critics of her father through her lawyers, basically trying to squelch any speech except that which praises her father and his work. She described her father's colleagues as scattering from him as he walked the halls of Caltech because "man can't stand in the light of God". Wow. She's clearly obssessed with her father, and may be doing his memory more harm than good with her lawsuits against his critics. Whatever excellent science Zwicky did should be able to stand on its own, and not protected by threat of legal action. I wonder of the origin of some of the incredibly fawning, un-encyclopedia-like tone of a lot of the material in this Wikipedia article... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.192.220 ( talk) 01:51, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Urk. Yes. The really fawning bits appeared in October 2007, in these three edits. I have cleaned up somewhat, with these edits on Nov 2009. — Duae Quartunciae ( talk · cont) 13:12, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
Arrogance and self-importance have no place in the public information arena, especially by those who parrot the myriad of "anecdotes" floating around the public domain. Mediocrity often seeks an affiliation with greatness and certainly, Fritz Zwicky's work and legacy do not require your errant input and hearsay, nor are they appreciated. Since you have no direct knowledge of FZ and his character and persona, and have not met him, you appear to be just another self-promoter seeking to aggrandize yourself among many.
Stand corrected that the accurate record is that no legal action was ever taken in defense of my father's work but in defense of his legacy and name which was under literary assault.
I would not rely on the article in Discover not "Discovery." I have publicly renounced the article for the embellished and inflammatory piece that was a distortion of its original purpose. The author chose to make it an "interest piece" about me, and even brought in my under-age son into the mix, while emphasizing the very tales and embellishments I was trying to address. 104.33.77.178 ( talk) 22:33, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
You need one of those little speaker icons that pronounces Zwicky when you click it.
M0123042 ( talk) 05:42, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
You need one of those little speaker icons that pronounces Zwicky when you click it.
M0123042 ( talk) 05:43, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
i was here and its pretty cool — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.188.213.223 ( talk) 14:47, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
At some point the narrative arose that Fritz Zwicky obtained the Palomar's 18-inch corrector plate from Berhard Schmidt himself, but I cannot find an actual source that says he really did. If someone has it, please post a reference here. I started looking for sources about where exactly the optics for the 18-inch were built and I am finding conflicting accounts.
I think Florence is wrong on that detail and the optics were *all* made at Caltech.
By looking at the history of the article, I see that it is a very contentious piece. Please rest assured I am not trying to step on any one's toes here, merely trying to find if anyone knows for sure.
Acmejia ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:02, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
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According to Kirshner's book the Aerobee was launched October 15 rather than 16. Astroplanet ( talk) 11:45, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
This section seems a bit out of place, slightly bizarre, an in any case needs a citation or else it should be removed:
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"Zwicky **immediately** speculated (incorrectly, it turns out) that the effect was due not to motions of the galaxy, but to some **inexplicable** phenomena that **mysteriously** caused photons to lose energy"
That's a typical attempt at ridiculizing an explanation wich is not in line with what the maintream parrots. "Tired light" is a legitimate explanation and there's nothing "inexplicable" or "mysterious" about the mechanism. I suggest the sentence be reworded paying a bit more respect to objectivity.--
201.213.52.138 (
talk)
18:29, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Isn't the "rap" a little inappropriate and also a copyvio? — Keenan Pepper 23:01, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Herbm 02:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC) START: The article, especially the early section on Zwicky's life was argumentative and lacking the tone of an encyclopedia article. The thrust seemed to be that no one in the scientific establishment understood Zwicky, largely due to the incompetence of other scientists.
I toned this down, and remove some of the repetive claims to this effect. One small example is changing 'prophet' (in reference to Zwicky) to 'visionary'.
This article needs more work, and might easily become the basis of a revision war so the editors should be alerted (I could not quickly find a tag for this.)
One possibly controversial addition by me: I quoted the Science Channel (with attribution) broadcast which claimed Zwicky was a "borderline psychopath" and difficult to work with.
It was this reference on "Most of Our Universe is Missing" which led me to curiosity about Zwicky and it would be appropriate to either document the original sources of this claim, or refute them with facts.
END Herbm 02:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
The Science Channel just reran the above cited program, and it did indeed call him a "borderline psychotic". Anyone have any citations for this? 69.165.175.130 09:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Take a look at this sentence from the end of the "Life and Work" section.
...career.He was a fitness freak and used to amaze onlookers by doing onearmed push ups.
"Fitness Freak"? Is this something that belongs in a so called encyclopedia? Plus the person who added the line did not put in a double space after the end of the previous sentence. And "onearmed" is not a real word.
This article is still a mess. There are indications that much has been written by a modern day advocates of the "tired light model", which has no serious standing in astronomy at all. I've already deleted a paragraph about an alleged Mössbauer effect on photons in deep space, which is as silly a notion as you can possibly imagine. It was proposed by an amateur critic of modern cosmology, Lyndon Ashmore. Nothing of the kind can be found in the scientific literature. There is still a paragraph called "Feynman's explanation, rehabilitation of Zwicky", which is also extremely silly. It is presented as if Feynman was supporting the tired light model, and Zwicky's ideas on tired light have regained credibility. This is ridiculous. The material cited to Feynman is makes no mention of Zwicky at all, but rather to the transmission of light in a medium like glass. This is also part of Lyndon Ashmore's confusions on Mössbauer effect, as he relates this to light passing through a thin plasma. The very first paragraph says that Zwicky is mainly known for tired light. That's false also. He's much better known for proposing dark matter; and probably better known for his observational work and for his proposal of gravitational lensing. Duae Quartunciae 10:42, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I hope our club could help a bit to do so. 84.158.112.69 11:42, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
This has no place in the article. Nothing about Zwicky's tired light proposal bears the slightest relation to the Mössbauer effect, which only occurs in solid crystals. The section refers to Lyndon Ashmore, with whom I am very familiar. He is a high school teacher with an amateur interest in reinventing most of cosmology, and has no credibility anywhere. He speaks of a Mössbauer effect in deep space plasmas, which is physically ludicrous; it is part of his unique proposal for tired light which conflicts with very elementary physics on conservation of momentum and energy, and has nothing to do with Zwicky. I don't know who put this there, but it is nothing but a plug for Lyndon's ludicrously incorrect theory that fails elementary physics. I will remove this section after dinner; this gives a bit of time for anyone to comment. Duae Quartunciae 08:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
OK. The deletion is done. Lyndon Ashmore showed up at the Bad Astronomy forum a couple of years ago, and had all the errors in his work explained to him at length by every other contributor. I was involved then, under the name "Sylas". You can see a sample post where I explain why Lyndon's work is unphysical, and unrelated to the Mössbauer effect. Check out msg #34 of thread and also read the rest of the thread if you really want to know more. Duae Quartunciae 09:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
We have a bad problem with this article in relation to tired light. I have deleted two sections which were especially badly supported and were, in fact, founded on totally unphysical crank science that has no publication record. There's lots more still here that is badly flawed. Tired light is a long since refuted idea in physics. It has no credibility. Modern day tired light advocates do not use Zwicky's model in any case; they propose unphysical interactions with matter particles in deep space. Frankly, nearly everything in this article starting from the section heading "Tired Light" right through to the section headed "Hubble's Meaning" should be deleted, and replaced with a brief description of what Zwicky himself actually proposed and the fact that it was never generally accepted and is now long since falsified. Most of the material I think should be deleted is actually an attempt to argue an extreme tired light model quite different to that of Zwicky, and one which is universally dismissed as nonsense by working astronomers. However, I don't want to do more drastic deletions until someone else can speak up -- preferably someone who is also at little bit familiar with astronomy. Or, if I get a vote of confidence from a few folks, I can go ahead with the deletion and the replacement as suggested here. Duae Quartunciae 11:03, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Here is a concrete proposal for a replacement section, entitled Tired Light.
Zwicky proposed that the cosmological redshift apparent in distant galaxies was due to some physical process that caused photons to gradually loose energy as they traveled through space. He considered the most likely candidate process to be a gravitational drag effect; in which photons lose energy in some way to the gravitational fields through which they pass. (Ref here to Zwicky 1929)
No way has ever been discovered to make this work, and the effect is now understood to be a consequence of the cosmological expansion of space. (Ref here to the Wikipedia article Tired Light.)
If no one objects and anyone approves, I'll make the replacement. Duae Quartunciae 11:28, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
New user "Cosmic Relief" has come to make some further changes. I am relieved to see that I'm not alone here! The change to the accelerating expansion paragraph is very good; I approve. Thank you. I disagree with your change to the Tired light section. Can you please talk about it? For instance, you add the word "was" inappropriately. I had said of redshift "is now" understood to be a consequence of the cosmological expansion of space. You replaced "is now" with "was". That is incorrect. The redshift is far and away now understand to be due to cosmological expansion. The number of scientists disputing this is tiny. The correct term as an accurate and neutral account of current knowledge remains as I expressed it previously. It is now understood to be cosmological expansion. Duae Quartunciae 13:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Another change by "Cosmic Relief" that I dispute in the tired light section. He adds a sentence as follows: "However, several workers (admittedly in the minority) have now taken this theory up again and proposed several possibilities." No citation is given. If you are referring to people like Lyndon Ashmore, who was cited in older versions of this page, then you are speaking of ideas that are trivially inconsistent with simple physics and invoke concepts that cannot apply in a plasma, and which have never been published in the scientific literature. Ashmore is a high school teacher with a self published book, a web page, and a paper riddled with very elementary errors published in a fringe journal with no credibility and no meaningful review process. This is not worthy of any mention at all. There are a few other mavericks like this; but as far as I know there is no credible process for tired light that has been proposed in recent years or which has had any impact whatsoever on the scientific community. I'm happy to talk about it, and don't doubt your sincerity. But I think this change is not warranted. Duae Quartunciae 13:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I need to tread carefully. "Cosmic Relief" is actually Lyndon Ashmore; spoke to me at the Bad Astronomy forum we both read. I am going to fix the changes to something I consider more reasonable, while taking some account of Cosmic relief's perspective. If we cannot reach an agreement then there are processes we can use to help arbitrate. Duae Quartunciae 13:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for drawing our attention to this article Sylas. I hadn't seen it before. However, there is nothing 'nonesensical' about Lyndonashmore's tired light model. Whilst we will not discuss it here, It remains THE most viable theory on the Hubble redshift."
Is reading links a too hard work???
PLEASE BE FAIR AND READ SOURCES AND LINKS wfc_k for 3 Astro-clubs (we have 1 Prof. and about 15 Dres and skilled physicians) 84.158.213.87 20:22, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I have checked over my comments, and am satisfied that they are confined to accurate statements of facts with respect to substance of proposals and the standing of the various ideas in physics. I do respect your good intentions, and will avoid attacking anyone as individuals. I will not refrained from identifying risible physics as trivially erroneous. Please accept also my good intentions in this, and realize you will have to work within a context where I respect you as persons, but consider your physics to be full of very trivial and basic errors. Duae Quartunciae 21:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
It is not appropriate to appeal to the support of individuals never identified by name. You mention a club and a professor; but nothing that could identify them. If they are relevant, please identify. If not, please refrain. You may of course invite them or anyone to speak anonymously on their own individual behalf. Duae Quartunciae 21:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
The fundamental issue here is that this has no relevance to Zwicky's ideas. It has no place in this biography. We have your assertion only that it has any relevance to transmission of light in deep space. This is an example of bad physics. Transmission in light involves no redshift of a tired light form; and unless you see Feynman himself making that association, your association with Feynams work on light in a crystal lattice with interactions to a lattice of bound electrons is not something you should associate with free electrons in a plasma on no other basis than your own assertion. Duae Quartunciae 21:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Incredibly, you guys have deleted outright the new material I provided that gave a link to Zwicky's own work in tired light in the references section! As a result of your deletion of all the work I provided, discussion of Zwicky's own papers are replaced with a lot of material developing proposals that Zwicky himself rejected on very basic physical grounds that remain valid today. The link you removed was On the Redshift of Spectral Lines through Interstellar Space, (Zwicky 1929). You now have that only in the list of papers, with no discussion of his work in the actual tired light section! On page 775, Zwicky considered the possibility of interactions with free electrons in interstallar space, and rejects this possibility because "any explanation based on a scattering processes like Compton effect or the Raman effect, etc, will be in a hopeless position..." THAT was Zwicky's view, and you have deleted the link and replaced with the very forms of process that Zwicky and indeed effectively the entire astronomical community consider to be physically impossible. Duae Quartunciae 22:44, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Different meanings are eliminated by all those who mean to know god's will?
The Mössbauer effect does not work in a plasma. It applies to gamma rays in solid crystal. The effects of the lattice are essential. If the German wiki says otherwise then it has a problem. One claim made by Lyndon Ashmore is that the Mössbauer effect involves straighline tranmissions. That's not true. Photons get scattered in the Mössbauer effect, and they are emitted at extreme angles, without recoil of the much heavier lattice. This section should be deleted. It is a series of basic errors in physics; not "new physics" at all; and it has no relevance to Zwicky -- who correctly recognized as do effectively the entire scientific community today that tired light cannot arise from interactions of photons and electrons. The paper (Zwicky 1929) that I cited explicit considers this possibility and dismisses it. The same reasoning remains valid today, and is accepted today.
I would like to propose that we invite a third party to join this discussion; it is an informal request and it is a standard part of how Wikipedia deals with issues such as we are having here. It would be best if we can mutually agree that an a third party from Wikipedia has some potential to help. Are you agreeable? If there is no answer I'll go ahead and request someone come and have a look, but I would prefer that we can both agree this is a good step first. Duae Quartunciae 22:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
OK. I have already long since read the relevant papers and discussed the physics at length with Lyndon in other forums. We really do need third party help for how to manage this, and so I have placed a neutral request for someone to come and have a look. Duae Quartunciae 01:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I have flagged the tired light section as being subject to dispute. What I would like to do is replace the section as it stands, including all subsections, with the following two paragraphs:
Zwicky proposed that the cosmological redshift apparent in distant galaxies was due to some physical process that caused photons to gradually lose energy as they traveled through space. This is called tired light. He considered the most likely candidate process to be a gravitational drag effect; in which photons lose energy in some way to the gravitational fields through which they pass <ref>Zwicky, F. (1929). "On the Red Shift of Spectral Lines through Interstellar Space". PNAS. 15: 773–779. Full article (PDF)</ref>.
The cosmological redshift is now understood to be a consequence of the cosmological expansion of space; a feature of Big Bang cosmology. There are a handful of individuals who are still proposing variations of the tired light model, but it is no longer something considered seriously within the mainstream of modern astronomy.
I believe this is simple, neutrally stated, backed up with references for Zwicky's own work, and the second paragraph is backed up with well established and heavily discussed wikipedia articles. This is pretty much what I had given previously, before an anonymous editor just reverted everything right back to the mess I was trying to fix. All the additional stuff that has been included by the anonymous editor is original research because it makes associations between light transmission in crystal lattices with tired light in deep space; an association which is not made anywhere in reliable sources, and it is subject to accuracy dispute because of its basic errors in elementary physics and inconsistency with observation data (Wright, E., Errors in Tired Light Cosmology, UCLA Div. of Astronomy and Astrophysics). It seems to be an attempt to insert a modern fringe theory into a biography of an astronomer who never used them, and indeed who explicitly rejected the style of approach being pushed here now as a "hopeless position" (Zwicky 1929).
My understanding of wikipedia is the recent activity of the anonymous editor has been a Partial Revert, and should been discussed before being implemented. My proposed edit here is also a revert; and so I want to get some kind of agreement or authority before going ahead. I have linked extensively to Wikipedia editing guidelines, but I would also appreciate guidance here for how to manage this problem from an experienced Wikipedia editor. Duae Quartunciae 06:13, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I did not read through all of the comments here, but I did briefly looked at this article. The "tired light" section has been given undue weight compared to the other material, especially since Zwicky is much better known now for his other contributions than for this specific theory. Moreover, most of this discussion is not about Zwicky's work in the field but instead about the theory in general, and it should be placed in the tired light article.
The paragraph proposed by Duae Quartunciae seems to be appropriate, although it could explain Zwicky's proposal in slightly more detail, and it could include a reference for the last paragraph. (I bet Peebles's book has something.) Once modified, this section should replace the current "Tired light" section in this article.
If the anonymous editor does not agree with this and does not discuss the issue here, then it may be appropriate to semi-protect the page (see WP:RFP). Dr. Submillimeter 11:48, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
The Ashmore-ideology should be excluded from this page because of WP:UNDUE. -- Mainstream astronomy 13:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
NOT SEEN?: Indeed Mössbauer effect is also in German WIKI priory seen in crystals, but only because therein it can be logically explained very good (see to this again below Feynman and Asmore in summary)! Feynma: It is NOT only valid in cristals, but also in ohter transparent media as glass!!! Nobody knows why he wrote!
1. ZWICKY is in the world mainly known for Tired light, less for only now relevant dark matter. He is no mainstream and according to WIKI alternatives and critcis should be mentioned and validated.
wfc_k 84.158.220.75 14:32, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
2. EINSTEIN, well known everywhere and already linked: He cannot understand PLANCK but PLANCK was right!
3. FEYNMAN, indeed the best in physics I ever read at my German university DARMSTADT! He was better understandable, even in another language for me!
4. ZWICKY is no mainstream and is now defenseless like other good old physicians. We need certainly a revision to better English but also for a serious alternative content??? We would like to have your and others help!!! Experts in our clubs are only here weekly and now began vacancies, therefore I write you what I know meanwhile.
5. ASHMORE - a fan of TIRED LIGHT, defamed as Halton Arp and above linked hundreds of physicians as only only one against mainstream - he writes, correctly linked and cited in our article, resumed here:
...because the stubborn and very strange but - by all old physicians so seen - simply genial ZWICKY can no more defend himself and as dead he needs certainly a little bit objective help - or not?
I cannot always answer because it is the club's PC and vacancies began over here – since an awful extern computer attack now with dynamic IP, sorry!!!
Thanks for at least trying to be objective. Could you please see that non standard must not be defamed as nonsense because students only learn the Mainstream (especially, we badly affected Germans should be carefully and not swim always with the mainstreams)?
Thanks for trying to read all our links to understand that dead people need a little bit of help - or not? wfc_k 84.158.250.191 14:01, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
: Please look all former links of former article, but seriously. 84.158.227.216
See answers and links as evidences. wfc_k (not completely anonymous but our club-PC was affected by a hard attack, even redirected to some "sexy sites", sorry, sorry but I cannot change adminisrtator's caution) wfc_k 84.158.248.83 14:38, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
REMINDER OF REMINDER: ARTICLE WAS OUR ORIGINAL RESEACH, 85%! PLEASE READ ALL (OFFICIAL) LINKS:
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America (PNAS) Sorry, but do you really mean that well known official publications must be published again now in [3]??? Please Read the former original ZWICKY jumping in 3 months to first research places and look to the poor man above missing the first serios information auout tired light (here becoming more and more serious alternative to Big bang) wfc_k 84.158.223.153 15:12, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
THIRD PHONE IN 2 WEEKS: Our > 85 y.o old (now) French Professor (after near 2 years in other parts a known successful author and WIKI-initiator) phoned me now again and said: I should give up to fight against Big-bang-windmills to save my health. So I will do, will go home 20 miles away from our club, go in vacancy as well really to save my health. People of our 3 clubs had made or enhanced at least 30 WIKI articles and spent money to WIKI and now resign TO BE:BOLD. Sinc 3 month none wrote himself (frustration of steady rv?). - Sorry I am only a "normal" Ing. educated in Univ. Darmstadt in physics and electrotechnics, then systemprogrammer, now impeded by accident - but I was only the writer for a good will...
I must confirm now: I should myself join now the meanwhile about 200 scientists and related people in [ An Open Letter to the Scientific Community]!-??? wfc_k 84.158.225.35 16:21, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I submit for consideration the following as content in the Tired Light section. Note that I would ammend the references to be links to the Notes and References section:
Zwicky proposed that the cosmological redshift apparent in distant galaxies was due to some physical process that caused photons to gradually lose energy as they traveled through space. This is called tired light. He considered the most likely candidate process to be a drag effect in which photons transfer momentum to surrounding masses though gravitational interactions; and proposed that an attempt be made to put this effect on a sound theoretical footing with general relativity (Zwicky 1929). He also considered and rejected explanations involving interactions with free electrons, or the expansion of space (Zwicky 1929).
Zwicky had good reason to be skeptical of the expansion of space in 1929, because the rates measured at that time were far too large. It was not until 1956 that Walter Baade corrected the distance scale based on Cepheid variable stars, and ushered in the first accurate measures of the expansion rate (Baade 1956). Cosmological redshift is now conventionally understood to be a consequence of the expansion of space; a feature of Big Bang cosmology.
References:
Zwicky, F. (1929). "On the Red Shift of Spectral Lines through Interstellar Space". PNAS. 15: 773–779. Full article (PDF)
Baade, W. (1956), "The Period-Luminosity Relation of the Cepheids", Publications of the Astronomical Society of the Pacific, 68 (400): 5–16
-- Duae Quartunciae 15:30, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
When
Edwin Hubble discovered a linear relationship between the distance to a galaxy and and its redshift expressed as a velocity[1], Zwicky immediately proposed that the effect was due not to motions of the galaxy, but to some physical process that caused photons to lose energy as they traveled through space. He considered the most likely candidate process to be a drag effect in which photons transfer momentum to surrounding masses though gravitational interactions; and proposed that an attempt be made to put this effect on a sound theoretical footing with general relativity. He also considered and rejected explanations involving interactions with free electrons, or the expansion of space[2].
|
I have removed the tag indicating that the tired light section is under dispute, because I have done a lot of work since then, and now consider that the whole biography is more or less fixed. I've added a couple of sections; in particular Zwicky's humanitarian work and the section "Guns and Goblins" which aims to look at some of his more unconventional ideas. The list of publications is perhaps too long; but basically this was the kind of material added in place when I started editing. I've subsectioned it, and put it all into a good citation formation, with links. This means I have stopped editing for the time being. -- Duae Quartunciae 15:46, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Tired light is an important part of Zwicky's work. What Sylas has done here is to censor the article to basically discredit Zwicky's brilliant idea. That is he wants to leave the prediction in but omit the evidence that later proved him correct. There are several new proposals on Zwicky's ideas - all of them published in peer reviewed, scientific journals. Why should Sylas call them 'crank?' If academics around the world have said they are of sufficient interest to be published, then why should he (Sylas) alone decide that he knows better and should delete these references? There are several popints here that Sylas has missed. i) Zwicky proposes a tired light theory and an exponential Hubble diagram. ii) He also proposes that Supernovae could act as standard candles. iii) other workers at a later date continue his work and come up with good physical explanations as to why tired light is responsible for the redsahift normally put down to expansion. iv) ashmore shows that the Hubble constant itself is related to electron parameters and explains why http://www.lyndonashmore.com (ashmore's paradox) H = hr/m per cubic metre of space v) suopernovae data show an exponential Hubble diagram. Zwicky suggested tired light. He suggested supernovae as standard candles. It these supernovae that later prove his own theory correct. That is why these points must remain here on this site. Cosmic relief 11:27, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
A new editor 65.11.156.143 has made some useful changes to the tired light section. However, two of the changes are not accurate, I think, so I have done a partial revert. They could be restored if given a citation. -- Duae Quartunciae 21:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the phrase saying that more accurate measurements of expansion rate effectively falsified tired light. It would be more correct that they restored the credibility of expanding space explanation, as they allowed for an older universe consistent with the age of the Earth and of stars. The reference associated with the sentence also does not support the added claim. Tired light was actually falsified by the lack of the any distortion in images and by observations of time stretching of the same scale of tired light; these are not really associated with more accurate measurement of the rate of expansion. ( diff) -- Duae Quartunciae 21:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I have reverted a comment about Zwicky's original tired light proposal (partial revert). I could be wrong about this; but I'd like to see a citation before the proposed change is applied. The editor 65.11.156.143 suggests that right back in 1929, Zwicky's tired light proposal was was dismissed by the scientific community. That could be true enough; but the reference given with that sentence does not support that claim. In fact, all explanations at that time were problematic, including expansion, due to the rate being measured incorrectly. I have for the time being reverted to a statement about the particular proposals Zwicky himself rejected, because this is supported in the reference. ( diff) -- Duae Quartunciae 21:22, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I added some poorely known contribution of Zwicky's mistaken hypothesis of tired light to understanding of general relativity. It might be kind of funny that a wrong idea provides a material to improve another theory but it's just like it is... Jim 16:17, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
What's with the glowing description of his wife: "Extremely intelligent, independent, private, rich and beautiful"? Seriously, what a weird description for an encyclopedia. - 69.47.186.226 22:35, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
"Fritz Zwicky was born in Varna, Bulgaria, to Swiss parents. His father was the Bulgarian ambassador to Norway. " Could there be some explanation of why the bulgarian ambassador to norway was swiss? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.2.40.144 ( talk) 21:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello. I'm wondering if we can tell that he is "of Bulgarian origin". Well, he was born in Varna, but his parents are Swiss, he moved to Switzerland at the age of 6, and he worked mainly in the US. Also, the categories "Bulgarian astronomers" and "Bulgarian Americans" look me inappropriate. -- PetaRZ ( talk) 20:59, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
The January 2009 issue of Discovery has an interview with Zwicky's daughter Barbarina. It would be good to add information from the interview to this article. She has attacked any and all critics of her father through her lawyers, basically trying to squelch any speech except that which praises her father and his work. She described her father's colleagues as scattering from him as he walked the halls of Caltech because "man can't stand in the light of God". Wow. She's clearly obssessed with her father, and may be doing his memory more harm than good with her lawsuits against his critics. Whatever excellent science Zwicky did should be able to stand on its own, and not protected by threat of legal action. I wonder of the origin of some of the incredibly fawning, un-encyclopedia-like tone of a lot of the material in this Wikipedia article... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.192.220 ( talk) 01:51, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Urk. Yes. The really fawning bits appeared in October 2007, in these three edits. I have cleaned up somewhat, with these edits on Nov 2009. — Duae Quartunciae ( talk · cont) 13:12, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
Arrogance and self-importance have no place in the public information arena, especially by those who parrot the myriad of "anecdotes" floating around the public domain. Mediocrity often seeks an affiliation with greatness and certainly, Fritz Zwicky's work and legacy do not require your errant input and hearsay, nor are they appreciated. Since you have no direct knowledge of FZ and his character and persona, and have not met him, you appear to be just another self-promoter seeking to aggrandize yourself among many.
Stand corrected that the accurate record is that no legal action was ever taken in defense of my father's work but in defense of his legacy and name which was under literary assault.
I would not rely on the article in Discover not "Discovery." I have publicly renounced the article for the embellished and inflammatory piece that was a distortion of its original purpose. The author chose to make it an "interest piece" about me, and even brought in my under-age son into the mix, while emphasizing the very tales and embellishments I was trying to address. 104.33.77.178 ( talk) 22:33, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
You need one of those little speaker icons that pronounces Zwicky when you click it.
M0123042 ( talk) 05:42, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
You need one of those little speaker icons that pronounces Zwicky when you click it.
M0123042 ( talk) 05:43, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
i was here and its pretty cool — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.188.213.223 ( talk) 14:47, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
At some point the narrative arose that Fritz Zwicky obtained the Palomar's 18-inch corrector plate from Berhard Schmidt himself, but I cannot find an actual source that says he really did. If someone has it, please post a reference here. I started looking for sources about where exactly the optics for the 18-inch were built and I am finding conflicting accounts.
I think Florence is wrong on that detail and the optics were *all* made at Caltech.
By looking at the history of the article, I see that it is a very contentious piece. Please rest assured I am not trying to step on any one's toes here, merely trying to find if anyone knows for sure.
Acmejia ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:02, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
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According to Kirshner's book the Aerobee was launched October 15 rather than 16. Astroplanet ( talk) 11:45, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
This section seems a bit out of place, slightly bizarre, an in any case needs a citation or else it should be removed: