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AllPeers uses a public login server, so it's not F2F according to the definition in the article. Should it be removed from the list of software? Michael Rogers 14:17, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
There's not much documentation, but the code is here. Michael Rogers 11:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't agree that WASTE is a friend-to-friend network. It's an invitation-only network, but once you've joined you can discover the IP addresses of other users (including users you've never met before) from ping packets.
You don't have to set WASTE up that way, you could tell it not to search for new connections or accept new keys. It has enough of the characteristics of an F2F and with the proper set up, could easily act as an one. Mark
"slow or stop his connexion with your node." - spelling error? "connection" instead?
Connexion is an acceptable spelling
"Strong encrypted F2F networks will mainly use strong symmetric encryption (in particular, the only theoretically secure one-time pad) for every link." Who ever wrote this article could do with a brush up on practical cryptography (no..not the book). OTP is pretty unpractical here.
"In countries where strong crypto is forbidden (or where you can be forced to give your keys), serious steganography should be used for every connection (and for storing files in your hard disk, since it could be seized.)." This is general computer security advice, does it reallly belong here? Michael Rogers 17:15, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
"Because of man in the middle problems, only F2F networks can use steganography to secure a link." Perhaps steganography can be used to avoid man in the middle attacks (I've never seen this suggested anywhere else), but why does it only apply to F2F networks? Michael Rogers 17:15, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, the new wording is much clearer. Michael Rogers 09:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
"You can even give their IP to the police, but since they are your friends you should kindly warn them first. Maybe one of their own friends made them do that. Now they can warn this friend in turn. And so on." Passages like this hardly seem appropriate in an encyclopedia.
Original: "Such a strong reputation network could be safely used to implement a system of
Altruistic_Economics or
electronic money with less greed and corruption" (not NPOV). Added "according to its advocates..." and then made their point more specific (after consulting the AE web page, which was very interesting).
Bryan
14:56, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Can someone provide references that show that the latest versions of ANts P2P, MUTE and Napshare can be configured to build a F2F network. There were such references in the past here, but they became too old and then became broken links.
A friend-to-friend software must not allow random people to connect to a node. Like a private FTP. But it is much more than a private FTP: it provides systematic anonymous forwarding of files and requests. Touisiau
Touisiau: the authors of Alliance say it's a friend-to-friend network, but you removed the Alliance link from the F2F page again. Why do you keep trying to enforce your own definition of F2F? Not everyone agrees that "F2F" means "anonymous forwarding" - it just means "friends connecting to friends". Please accept that other people's opinions are valid and stop trying to force everyone else to use your definition of the term. Michael Rogers
OK, let's have a look at those references. The Turtle paper uses the term "friends-to-friends delivery network" to refer to anonymous forwarding, so that definitely supports your position. The NCUS paper is more problematic: it states that "The majority of anonymous peer-to-peer systems are 'friend-to-friend' networks... Communication with remote nodes is provided by sending messages hop-to-hop across this overlay network." (Section 1.) Again, this would appear to support your position. However, the authors don't actually provide a single example of the kind of network they describe, despite claiming that "the majority of anonymous peer-to-peer systems" fit their definition. The only example they give of a friend-to-friend is WASTE (see the table in Section 3) -- apart from the statement quoted above that's the only place the term friend-to-friend occurs in their paper. WASTE does not support anonymous forwarding: even if you disable ping packets, WASTE is pseudonymous. So the NCUS paper supports your position in one place, but undermines it in another.
On to third reference, the IPTPS paper. Thanks for the link, I hadn't come across this one before. Unfortunately it contradicts your position and supports mine. The paper talks about direct sharing between friends, but never mentions forwarding, anonymous or otherwise: "Nodes restrict themselves to sharing storage and network resources only with neighbors, but in return can expect that their neighbors (friends) will behave cooperatively. We call this way of structuring networks f2f." (Section 1.) "A f2f application can neither use all idle resources nor provide global sharing of common data." (Section 1.) "Data is only sent to neighbors, since these nodes are owned by individuals we believe will act cooperatively." (Section 4.)
Here's another peer-reviewed paper that supports my definition - actually I'm one of the authors: M. Rogers and S. Bhatti, How to Disappear Completely: A Survey of Private Peer-to-Peer Networks, to appear at the 1st International Workshop on Sustaining Privacy in Autonomous Collaborative Environments (SPACE 2007), Moncton, Canada, July 2007. Please see the definitions at the end of Section 2.1: "Some private peer-to-peer networks allow direct connections between any pair of users, while others only allow direct connections between users who know one another. We will refer to the former as group-based networks and the latter as friend-to-friend networks." In other words, F2F is a subset of private P2P, where direct connections are only made between friends. According to this definition, and the definition used in the IPTPS paper, a network does not have to support anonymous forwarding to be considered F2F.
To answer your other point: if F2F doesn't necessarily involve anonymous forwarding, what makes F2F different from "passwords and firewalls since the beginning of the internet"? I would argue that F2F involves the construction of a private overlay network, where the users of the network act as peers, and direct connections are only established between users who trust one another. Some F2F networks support anonymous forwarding (eg Turtle, Freenet version 0.7, and GNUnet with the F2F topology option). Others support pseudonymous forwarding (eg Alliance, Galet, Cryptic6, and WASTE with ping packets disabled). Some don't support forwarding at all (eg the BlockParty application described in the IPTPS paper). All of these systems have been described as F2F in peer-reviewed papers, so I believe you should accept that your definition of F2F is too narrow. The term should not be restricted to those systems that involve anonymous forwarding. Michael Rogers 11:33, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Not all private overlays should be called F2F, in my opinion - only those where connections are established between friends. I agree that this implies that communication between non-friends must be anonymous (eg Turtle), pseudonymous (eg Alliance) or impossible (eg BlockParty).
If you'd like to remove the reference to my work that's fine, I just wanted to point out that it's a peer-reviewed paper, and the reviewers accepted the definition of F2F given in the paper: a broad definition that explicitly includes systems like Alliance as well as Turtle.
I don't see how it's relevant that the IPTPS paper cites the Turtle paper, since it doesn't refer to that paper for a definition of F2F - instead it offers its own definition, which is broader than the definition you are trying to enforce. We have to accept that various people use the term F2F in slightly different, but overlapping ways. Perhaps we should add a section to the article describing different definitions of F2F? Michael Rogers 09:16, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I think the article can be improved, but don't need a a complete rewriting.
"These are peer-to-peer networks in which each peer (node) only connects to a small number of other, known nodes. Only the direct neighbours of a node know its IP address. Communication with remote nodes is provided by sending messages hop-to-hop across this overlay network. Routing messages in this way allows these networks to trade efficient routing for anonymity. There is no way to find the IP address of a remote node, and direct neighbours can achieve a level of anonymity by claiming that they are just forwarding requests and files for other nodes. These systems offer anonymity against an attacker that is a single node inside the system and that is looking for the IP address of someone"
I have removed the german link [[de:F2F]] If someone find a link about F2F or FriendToFriend in the german wiki, please add the link. -- Lastwebpage 17:35, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
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RetroShare and Freenet were anonymous P2P, if a F2F software contain strangers, it won't be safe like F2F, should not call it F2F. When a tool want be widely used, it has lost its mind, F2F is a private tool in your friend around you, not in the internet over the world. About F2F, i think it is useless, you and your frined realy need a software for you personally? Waste of labor, it is just a game of concept, just p2p with some rules.
This man lives in fishers indiana. He hS a problem gangstalking little 3 yr old baby girls with his finger in there asshole. His wife works at riley childrens hospitol at the iupui campus 2601:803:800:41B0:8965:C88:EA31:F6FE ( talk) 05:32, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
I need one best friend 103.216.56.113 ( talk) 19:59, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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AllPeers uses a public login server, so it's not F2F according to the definition in the article. Should it be removed from the list of software? Michael Rogers 14:17, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
There's not much documentation, but the code is here. Michael Rogers 11:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't agree that WASTE is a friend-to-friend network. It's an invitation-only network, but once you've joined you can discover the IP addresses of other users (including users you've never met before) from ping packets.
You don't have to set WASTE up that way, you could tell it not to search for new connections or accept new keys. It has enough of the characteristics of an F2F and with the proper set up, could easily act as an one. Mark
"slow or stop his connexion with your node." - spelling error? "connection" instead?
Connexion is an acceptable spelling
"Strong encrypted F2F networks will mainly use strong symmetric encryption (in particular, the only theoretically secure one-time pad) for every link." Who ever wrote this article could do with a brush up on practical cryptography (no..not the book). OTP is pretty unpractical here.
"In countries where strong crypto is forbidden (or where you can be forced to give your keys), serious steganography should be used for every connection (and for storing files in your hard disk, since it could be seized.)." This is general computer security advice, does it reallly belong here? Michael Rogers 17:15, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
"Because of man in the middle problems, only F2F networks can use steganography to secure a link." Perhaps steganography can be used to avoid man in the middle attacks (I've never seen this suggested anywhere else), but why does it only apply to F2F networks? Michael Rogers 17:15, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, the new wording is much clearer. Michael Rogers 09:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
"You can even give their IP to the police, but since they are your friends you should kindly warn them first. Maybe one of their own friends made them do that. Now they can warn this friend in turn. And so on." Passages like this hardly seem appropriate in an encyclopedia.
Original: "Such a strong reputation network could be safely used to implement a system of
Altruistic_Economics or
electronic money with less greed and corruption" (not NPOV). Added "according to its advocates..." and then made their point more specific (after consulting the AE web page, which was very interesting).
Bryan
14:56, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Can someone provide references that show that the latest versions of ANts P2P, MUTE and Napshare can be configured to build a F2F network. There were such references in the past here, but they became too old and then became broken links.
A friend-to-friend software must not allow random people to connect to a node. Like a private FTP. But it is much more than a private FTP: it provides systematic anonymous forwarding of files and requests. Touisiau
Touisiau: the authors of Alliance say it's a friend-to-friend network, but you removed the Alliance link from the F2F page again. Why do you keep trying to enforce your own definition of F2F? Not everyone agrees that "F2F" means "anonymous forwarding" - it just means "friends connecting to friends". Please accept that other people's opinions are valid and stop trying to force everyone else to use your definition of the term. Michael Rogers
OK, let's have a look at those references. The Turtle paper uses the term "friends-to-friends delivery network" to refer to anonymous forwarding, so that definitely supports your position. The NCUS paper is more problematic: it states that "The majority of anonymous peer-to-peer systems are 'friend-to-friend' networks... Communication with remote nodes is provided by sending messages hop-to-hop across this overlay network." (Section 1.) Again, this would appear to support your position. However, the authors don't actually provide a single example of the kind of network they describe, despite claiming that "the majority of anonymous peer-to-peer systems" fit their definition. The only example they give of a friend-to-friend is WASTE (see the table in Section 3) -- apart from the statement quoted above that's the only place the term friend-to-friend occurs in their paper. WASTE does not support anonymous forwarding: even if you disable ping packets, WASTE is pseudonymous. So the NCUS paper supports your position in one place, but undermines it in another.
On to third reference, the IPTPS paper. Thanks for the link, I hadn't come across this one before. Unfortunately it contradicts your position and supports mine. The paper talks about direct sharing between friends, but never mentions forwarding, anonymous or otherwise: "Nodes restrict themselves to sharing storage and network resources only with neighbors, but in return can expect that their neighbors (friends) will behave cooperatively. We call this way of structuring networks f2f." (Section 1.) "A f2f application can neither use all idle resources nor provide global sharing of common data." (Section 1.) "Data is only sent to neighbors, since these nodes are owned by individuals we believe will act cooperatively." (Section 4.)
Here's another peer-reviewed paper that supports my definition - actually I'm one of the authors: M. Rogers and S. Bhatti, How to Disappear Completely: A Survey of Private Peer-to-Peer Networks, to appear at the 1st International Workshop on Sustaining Privacy in Autonomous Collaborative Environments (SPACE 2007), Moncton, Canada, July 2007. Please see the definitions at the end of Section 2.1: "Some private peer-to-peer networks allow direct connections between any pair of users, while others only allow direct connections between users who know one another. We will refer to the former as group-based networks and the latter as friend-to-friend networks." In other words, F2F is a subset of private P2P, where direct connections are only made between friends. According to this definition, and the definition used in the IPTPS paper, a network does not have to support anonymous forwarding to be considered F2F.
To answer your other point: if F2F doesn't necessarily involve anonymous forwarding, what makes F2F different from "passwords and firewalls since the beginning of the internet"? I would argue that F2F involves the construction of a private overlay network, where the users of the network act as peers, and direct connections are only established between users who trust one another. Some F2F networks support anonymous forwarding (eg Turtle, Freenet version 0.7, and GNUnet with the F2F topology option). Others support pseudonymous forwarding (eg Alliance, Galet, Cryptic6, and WASTE with ping packets disabled). Some don't support forwarding at all (eg the BlockParty application described in the IPTPS paper). All of these systems have been described as F2F in peer-reviewed papers, so I believe you should accept that your definition of F2F is too narrow. The term should not be restricted to those systems that involve anonymous forwarding. Michael Rogers 11:33, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Not all private overlays should be called F2F, in my opinion - only those where connections are established between friends. I agree that this implies that communication between non-friends must be anonymous (eg Turtle), pseudonymous (eg Alliance) or impossible (eg BlockParty).
If you'd like to remove the reference to my work that's fine, I just wanted to point out that it's a peer-reviewed paper, and the reviewers accepted the definition of F2F given in the paper: a broad definition that explicitly includes systems like Alliance as well as Turtle.
I don't see how it's relevant that the IPTPS paper cites the Turtle paper, since it doesn't refer to that paper for a definition of F2F - instead it offers its own definition, which is broader than the definition you are trying to enforce. We have to accept that various people use the term F2F in slightly different, but overlapping ways. Perhaps we should add a section to the article describing different definitions of F2F? Michael Rogers 09:16, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I think the article can be improved, but don't need a a complete rewriting.
"These are peer-to-peer networks in which each peer (node) only connects to a small number of other, known nodes. Only the direct neighbours of a node know its IP address. Communication with remote nodes is provided by sending messages hop-to-hop across this overlay network. Routing messages in this way allows these networks to trade efficient routing for anonymity. There is no way to find the IP address of a remote node, and direct neighbours can achieve a level of anonymity by claiming that they are just forwarding requests and files for other nodes. These systems offer anonymity against an attacker that is a single node inside the system and that is looking for the IP address of someone"
I have removed the german link [[de:F2F]] If someone find a link about F2F or FriendToFriend in the german wiki, please add the link. -- Lastwebpage 17:35, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Cyberbot II has detected that page contains external links that have either been globally or locally blacklisted. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed, or are highly innappropriate for Wikipedia. This, however, doesn't necessarily mean it's spam, or not a good link. If the link is a good link, you may wish to request whitelisting by going to the request page for whitelisting. If you feel the link being caught by the blacklist is a false positive, or no longer needed on the blacklist, you may request the regex be removed or altered at the blacklist request page. If the link is blacklisted globally and you feel the above applies you may request to whitelist it using the before mentioned request page, or request it's removal, or alteration, at the request page on meta. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. The whitelisting process can take its time so once a request has been filled out, you may set the invisible parameter on the tag to true. Please be aware that the bot will replace removed tags, and will remove misplaced tags regularly.
Below is a list of links that were found on the main page:
\buni\.cc\b
on the global blacklistIf you would like me to provide more information on the talk page, contact User:Cyberpower678 and ask him to program me with more info.
From your friendly hard working bot.— cyberbot II NotifyOnline 17:09, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Resolved This issue has been resolved, and I have therefore removed the tag, if not already done. No further action is necessary.— cyberbot II NotifyOnline 05:56, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
RetroShare and Freenet were anonymous P2P, if a F2F software contain strangers, it won't be safe like F2F, should not call it F2F. When a tool want be widely used, it has lost its mind, F2F is a private tool in your friend around you, not in the internet over the world. About F2F, i think it is useless, you and your frined realy need a software for you personally? Waste of labor, it is just a game of concept, just p2p with some rules.
This man lives in fishers indiana. He hS a problem gangstalking little 3 yr old baby girls with his finger in there asshole. His wife works at riley childrens hospitol at the iupui campus 2601:803:800:41B0:8965:C88:EA31:F6FE ( talk) 05:32, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
I need one best friend 103.216.56.113 ( talk) 19:59, 11 May 2024 (UTC)