![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The correct and universally acknowledged English spelling is Froebel — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.135.56.150 ( talk) 02:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Some edits have involved the creation of other Talk pages for Friedrich Fröbel, and even a duplicate article (now eliminated). The former Talk pages can be reached here:
Kelisi ( talk) 14:12, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
There is currently an attempt by one editor to redirect this to a spelling of the man's name using the e instead of the umlaut, and by another to prevent that. There needs to be a discussion about this ~ a polite discussion, i hasten to add, before such action is taken. Consensus means some general agreement; we don't have that here for the proposed move; not yet, anyway.
As a start, i note that the name gets about three hundred thousand Google hits spelled Froebel and about one point two million spelled Fröbel. Google is not the be all and end all, but it does help to establish common usage, and that's what policy is going to require. Thoughts? Cheers, Lindsay Hi 08:33, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree with you that a Google search of Fröbel yields about one point two million pages. Of these about one hundred thousand are written in English. Although I have not checked them all they will include references, blogs and homepages of living people in German with the surname Fröbel. However the question before us is not, how to name an article about a living person named Fröbel, but rather how to present and article about the historical person, who is usuually referred to in English reference works as Friedrich Froebel.
A Google search of either Friedrich Fröbel or Friedrich Froebel yields exactly the same pages written in English - about 33,000. Many of these pages do not include the word Fröbel. Fred20x ( talk) 15:14, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia, Gothic scripts were developed from Carolingian because they were more compact and therefore more words could be fitted onto an expensive sheet of parchment or vellum. I assume that umlauts and other printer's devices were similarly developed to save space and therefore the cost of the printed material. As Wikipedia is not subject to these price constraints we can afford the luxury of "oe" or "ss" and do not need to resort to the cost saving of old fashioned printers devices. The other advantage of using the standard 26 letters of the English alphabet is that most English speaking contributors can type them easily. By all means show the German, Greek, Russian, Hebrew or Arabic letters for the interest of the erudite - but please keep the text of the article in English Fred20x ( talk) 16:24, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia the two dots over the "a", "o" or "u" developed from 16th century handwriting and were sporadically introduced into printed works during the 16th century. This would suggest that Martin Luther's Bible did not include these marks. According to Wikipedia in medieval German manuscripts phonological umlaut was denoted by adding an e to the affected vowel, either after the vowel or, in small form, above it. According to Wikpedia a graphical designer was commissioned by the Prussian ministry for culture in 1911 to develop Sütterlin hand written script. I am interested in your opinion that Froebel may have written his name as Fröbel and wonder what evidence you have to support this idea? Fred20x ( talk) 07:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
There is a fundamental difference between the naming conventions of modern celebrities and historical figures. Quite properly modern celebrites do not as a rule anglicise their names and modern printers often accomodate the range of characters required to represent these names. In contrast, historical figures were often represented by different names in different languages. The Wikipedia policy is flexible adopting the form more commonly recognized by readers. In this case the weight of English language usage for over 150 years is solidly behind Friedrich Froebel. Unlike the other examples you mention, Froebel has generated an extraordinary body of literature in the English language. Fred20x ( talk) 02:57, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Kelisi, I think you have conclusively demonstated that Friedrich Froebel is the preferred form in English. It has the weight of 150 years of usage by scholars and reference works. It has the combined weight of current usage by The Noble Prize committee, CNN, BBC, Britannica etc . . And it is how English text book refer to him. As to Duden and the Prussian Sütterlin hand written script these are both developments after Froebel's death and after Froebel have become the usual form in English. There is simply no reason for a modern German spelling of this historical figure in an English language resource - although I see no problem with a notation (German: Friedrich Wilhelm August Fröbel). Will you do the honors or will I? Fred20x ( talk) 14:21, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Kelisi, I suggest you take a look at Ludwig_van_Beethoven to get some idea what a neutral point of view article about Friedrich Froebel may look like. Both men were born about the same time and lived through the Napoleonic Wars and the Congress of Vienna. Both men were born into simliar families, educated court officals of Principalities. Both men made major contributions in their fields which have won international recognition. There is no attempt to render place names like Cologne (Köln) or Vienna (Wien) in their German equivalents in the Beethoven article - or even in the place name pages at Wikipedia. I do not think it is too much to ask that Friedrich Froebel be treated with the same respect. Fred20x ( talk) 15:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but i think that the stress does not go ->[ˈaʊɡʊst] but [aʊ'ɡʊst]. ҢДMM® (Hundry Marquina!) 18:16, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Friedrich Fröbel. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://www.froebel.com/When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 05:58, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The correct and universally acknowledged English spelling is Froebel — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.135.56.150 ( talk) 02:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Some edits have involved the creation of other Talk pages for Friedrich Fröbel, and even a duplicate article (now eliminated). The former Talk pages can be reached here:
Kelisi ( talk) 14:12, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
There is currently an attempt by one editor to redirect this to a spelling of the man's name using the e instead of the umlaut, and by another to prevent that. There needs to be a discussion about this ~ a polite discussion, i hasten to add, before such action is taken. Consensus means some general agreement; we don't have that here for the proposed move; not yet, anyway.
As a start, i note that the name gets about three hundred thousand Google hits spelled Froebel and about one point two million spelled Fröbel. Google is not the be all and end all, but it does help to establish common usage, and that's what policy is going to require. Thoughts? Cheers, Lindsay Hi 08:33, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree with you that a Google search of Fröbel yields about one point two million pages. Of these about one hundred thousand are written in English. Although I have not checked them all they will include references, blogs and homepages of living people in German with the surname Fröbel. However the question before us is not, how to name an article about a living person named Fröbel, but rather how to present and article about the historical person, who is usuually referred to in English reference works as Friedrich Froebel.
A Google search of either Friedrich Fröbel or Friedrich Froebel yields exactly the same pages written in English - about 33,000. Many of these pages do not include the word Fröbel. Fred20x ( talk) 15:14, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia, Gothic scripts were developed from Carolingian because they were more compact and therefore more words could be fitted onto an expensive sheet of parchment or vellum. I assume that umlauts and other printer's devices were similarly developed to save space and therefore the cost of the printed material. As Wikipedia is not subject to these price constraints we can afford the luxury of "oe" or "ss" and do not need to resort to the cost saving of old fashioned printers devices. The other advantage of using the standard 26 letters of the English alphabet is that most English speaking contributors can type them easily. By all means show the German, Greek, Russian, Hebrew or Arabic letters for the interest of the erudite - but please keep the text of the article in English Fred20x ( talk) 16:24, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia the two dots over the "a", "o" or "u" developed from 16th century handwriting and were sporadically introduced into printed works during the 16th century. This would suggest that Martin Luther's Bible did not include these marks. According to Wikipedia in medieval German manuscripts phonological umlaut was denoted by adding an e to the affected vowel, either after the vowel or, in small form, above it. According to Wikpedia a graphical designer was commissioned by the Prussian ministry for culture in 1911 to develop Sütterlin hand written script. I am interested in your opinion that Froebel may have written his name as Fröbel and wonder what evidence you have to support this idea? Fred20x ( talk) 07:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
There is a fundamental difference between the naming conventions of modern celebrities and historical figures. Quite properly modern celebrites do not as a rule anglicise their names and modern printers often accomodate the range of characters required to represent these names. In contrast, historical figures were often represented by different names in different languages. The Wikipedia policy is flexible adopting the form more commonly recognized by readers. In this case the weight of English language usage for over 150 years is solidly behind Friedrich Froebel. Unlike the other examples you mention, Froebel has generated an extraordinary body of literature in the English language. Fred20x ( talk) 02:57, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Kelisi, I think you have conclusively demonstated that Friedrich Froebel is the preferred form in English. It has the weight of 150 years of usage by scholars and reference works. It has the combined weight of current usage by The Noble Prize committee, CNN, BBC, Britannica etc . . And it is how English text book refer to him. As to Duden and the Prussian Sütterlin hand written script these are both developments after Froebel's death and after Froebel have become the usual form in English. There is simply no reason for a modern German spelling of this historical figure in an English language resource - although I see no problem with a notation (German: Friedrich Wilhelm August Fröbel). Will you do the honors or will I? Fred20x ( talk) 14:21, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Kelisi, I suggest you take a look at Ludwig_van_Beethoven to get some idea what a neutral point of view article about Friedrich Froebel may look like. Both men were born about the same time and lived through the Napoleonic Wars and the Congress of Vienna. Both men were born into simliar families, educated court officals of Principalities. Both men made major contributions in their fields which have won international recognition. There is no attempt to render place names like Cologne (Köln) or Vienna (Wien) in their German equivalents in the Beethoven article - or even in the place name pages at Wikipedia. I do not think it is too much to ask that Friedrich Froebel be treated with the same respect. Fred20x ( talk) 15:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but i think that the stress does not go ->[ˈaʊɡʊst] but [aʊ'ɡʊst]. ҢДMM® (Hundry Marquina!) 18:16, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Friedrich Fröbel. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://www.froebel.com/When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 05:58, 15 December 2017 (UTC)