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I just fixed an edit someone had made of one of Foucault's quotes, wherein they changed "child" to "teen." Foucault stated child. I can only guess at the political motivations behind this. In any case, it appears much of this page has been altered to make the events described seem more compatible with contemporary beliefs and taboos. As a newer Wikipedia user, I am not sure how to remedy this. If someone else could, it would be appreciated.
Epistemologicalbiker ( talk) 07:08, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
Can we clarify whether any of the famous names who signed the 1977 letter also signed the 1979 letter? At the moment, the page is a little passively misleading: the celebs' endorsement of the moderately teen-permissive language of the first letter can be read as extending to the extremely pro-pedophilia language of the second letter. To avoid such confusion, I'd like a statement that the folks on the long list did not sign the second (or if some did, then say who those ones were). Sorry, I realize a complete list of signatures for the second letter doesn't appear on the source page.
Also, who actually wrote thee letters?
DanB DanD 18:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
It think it might be an error to include the names of Jean-Paul Sartre, Simone de Beauvoir, Roland Barthes, Alain Robbe-Grillet and Philippe Sollers for the petition. They did sign the letter to Le Monde in January 1977, but I can't find any evidence that they signed the petition to the parliament later that year. I think that the error probably comes from the website denistouret.net ( http://www.denistouret.net/constit/Cohn-Bendit.html ). The website cites an article from the newspaper Libération which seems to have misread an article that appeared in the magazine L'Express (Jacqueline Remy, “Libération sexuelle: Le devoir d’inventaire,” L’Express, no. 2591, 01/03/2001, page 80-82). The article in L'Express talked about both the January 1977 letter and the petition later that year and somehow it seems that the two got confused. For example, the website quotes Sollers as saying "Il y avait tellement de pétitions. On signait presque automatiquement," but here Sollers was talking about the January letter and NOT the petition. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Scotteaux ( talk • contribs) 17:57, 26 February 2007 (UTC).
the article form L'express is disponible there: http://www.lexpress.fr/informations/le-devoir-d-inventaire_641580.html-- Domics ( talk) 09:14, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
The article states that Michel Foucault signed the open letter in Le Mond, however the archived version of the letter that is listed as a source does not include his name among the signees. If no one can show me a source that actually lists him as a signee, I will go ahead and remove his name from the sentence. ("An open letter signed by 69 people, including Jean-Paul Sartre, Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze, Roland Barthes, Philippe Sollers, and Louis Aragon was published in Le Monde in 1977")
~~~
Patlut ( talk) 15:40, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
There are a number of ways in which the age of consent laws that were in place in France in 1977 could be seen as oppressive. Some of the arguments made by those who signed the petition and others who opposed these laws included:
These laws were often used to unfairly target and punish people who were perceived as being different or outside the mainstream, such as LGBTQ+ individuals.
Overall, the petition and the broader movement it was part of sought to challenge and dismantle these laws as a way of promoting greater freedom and autonomy for individuals in matters of sexuality and personal relationships. 115.166.3.9 ( talk) 09:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
According to this article [1] the petition's intention was to resolve the double standards between homosexuals and heterosexuals (that's why the wikipedia page mentions people being accused of pedophilia as being kept in jail for years based on accusations alone).
There's an interview [2] in which they basically just jabber on about how complex an issue it is. It ends with: "In any case, if one listens to what a child says and if he says 'I didn't mind,' that doesn't have the legal value of 'I consent.' But I'm also very mistrustful of that formal recognition of consent on the part of a minor, because I know it will never be obtained and is meaningless in any case."
So that's someone having signed the petition saying that children can't really legally consent.
According to this article [3] in France, "In the 19th century, the age at which children were considered sexual minors was 11; later, it was raised to 13, and since 1945, it has been 15."
The Wikipedia page, under the heading 'Legacy" states "In 1982, the French government removed its clauses regarding sodomy and similar acts "against nature" from the 1945 ordinance."
That seemed to have been why the petitioning didn't continue, because the double standard against homosexual relations was seen to be resolved... which seems to be what the whole thing was about - removing the double standards on gay people and their having sexual relations. But maybe there's also some what of an anarchist undercurrent to the whole thing. 115.166.3.9 ( talk) 09:28, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
The purpose of this petition is unclear. While we should establish that this is not the left trying to support pedophiles (one can misconstrue the petition quite easily), it is also important to note the objective of the signatories. While it would be illogical to say they were legit pedophiles trying to get a freedom ticket, we must consider the true motivations of the signatories. First, it is apparent that they were for the liberation of homosexuality, as stated by the petition's text. Furthermore, this appears to be a protest against the inequity of hetero/homosexual relationships when it comes to the age of consent in France, stating that if a child can be held liable for crimes, they should also be able to consent to sexual acts with adults. As a person on the left, I do not endorse pedophilia, and nobody on the left would/should enable child molesters to act out their atrocious fantasies; while there were fringe movements, nobody on the left of their respective counties caught on (thank goodness).
Anyways, it appears that the objective of the creator was to advance gay rights, not to enable pedophiles. If anything, the whole "legalizing sex with kids" part was just nonsense to turn heads towards their cause, and not to actually liberate pedophilia. As stated by the above topic, it appears that equalizing age of consent laws for hetero/homosexual relationships was the goal, with the other elements being an attention-getter.
Again, the left does not endorse pedophiles. We are not part of some pedo-satanic cult of intellectuals plotting the end of the world or something. In conclusion, the objective was not pedophile liberation, but rather the advancement of gay rights in France.
TL;DR please list the purpose of the petition in clear words on the page; we do not need people thinking this was some pro-pedophile campaign by creeps of a specific ideology. That said, the addition of the motivations of the signatories would be beneficial to the understanding of this petition. It is evident that the signatories did not support pedophiles and used that element as a method of getting attention to their cause (aka gay liberation), and not enabling pedophiles. Basically, they used the "no age of consent laws" as a point of turn heads, not actually liberate pedophiles.
Western Progressivist (
talk) 18:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I think this page is not up to the standard of quality and context the French wikipedia page provides and lacks nuance and key historical context that situates the petition with the Versailles case. The wiki editors for the English page have a clear agenda to obfuscate and mystify the very complex workings of this key watershed moment in French history and must do better with their sources. The French Wikipedia page is miles better when discussing this topic providing relevant context and quotes regarding this.
https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_de_Versailles https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A9titions_en_France_concernant_la_majorit%C3%A9_sexuelle 2A00:23C7:A8AF:B101:2644:B991:D2EC:F606 ( talk) 13:24, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
I've removed this phrase from the article recently as there has not been "statutory rape" clause in France until 2021.
In France, it is illegal for an adult to have sex with a minor under the age of 15. But it is not automatically considered rape, unlike in countries with statutory rape laws where people who are underage are considered incapable of giving consent.( The New York Times)
See, for example, the above article from January 2020. I believe this is probably the result of a poor translation (the whole article seems to be the result of multiple poor translations). ~ F4U ( talk • they/it) 04:26, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
Did Guérin sign the 1979 petition? None of the sources for that section mention his name at all as far as I can tell. Zerothenerd ( talk) 11:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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I just fixed an edit someone had made of one of Foucault's quotes, wherein they changed "child" to "teen." Foucault stated child. I can only guess at the political motivations behind this. In any case, it appears much of this page has been altered to make the events described seem more compatible with contemporary beliefs and taboos. As a newer Wikipedia user, I am not sure how to remedy this. If someone else could, it would be appreciated.
Epistemologicalbiker ( talk) 07:08, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
Can we clarify whether any of the famous names who signed the 1977 letter also signed the 1979 letter? At the moment, the page is a little passively misleading: the celebs' endorsement of the moderately teen-permissive language of the first letter can be read as extending to the extremely pro-pedophilia language of the second letter. To avoid such confusion, I'd like a statement that the folks on the long list did not sign the second (or if some did, then say who those ones were). Sorry, I realize a complete list of signatures for the second letter doesn't appear on the source page.
Also, who actually wrote thee letters?
DanB DanD 18:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
It think it might be an error to include the names of Jean-Paul Sartre, Simone de Beauvoir, Roland Barthes, Alain Robbe-Grillet and Philippe Sollers for the petition. They did sign the letter to Le Monde in January 1977, but I can't find any evidence that they signed the petition to the parliament later that year. I think that the error probably comes from the website denistouret.net ( http://www.denistouret.net/constit/Cohn-Bendit.html ). The website cites an article from the newspaper Libération which seems to have misread an article that appeared in the magazine L'Express (Jacqueline Remy, “Libération sexuelle: Le devoir d’inventaire,” L’Express, no. 2591, 01/03/2001, page 80-82). The article in L'Express talked about both the January 1977 letter and the petition later that year and somehow it seems that the two got confused. For example, the website quotes Sollers as saying "Il y avait tellement de pétitions. On signait presque automatiquement," but here Sollers was talking about the January letter and NOT the petition. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Scotteaux ( talk • contribs) 17:57, 26 February 2007 (UTC).
the article form L'express is disponible there: http://www.lexpress.fr/informations/le-devoir-d-inventaire_641580.html-- Domics ( talk) 09:14, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
The article states that Michel Foucault signed the open letter in Le Mond, however the archived version of the letter that is listed as a source does not include his name among the signees. If no one can show me a source that actually lists him as a signee, I will go ahead and remove his name from the sentence. ("An open letter signed by 69 people, including Jean-Paul Sartre, Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze, Roland Barthes, Philippe Sollers, and Louis Aragon was published in Le Monde in 1977")
~~~
Patlut ( talk) 15:40, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
There are a number of ways in which the age of consent laws that were in place in France in 1977 could be seen as oppressive. Some of the arguments made by those who signed the petition and others who opposed these laws included:
These laws were often used to unfairly target and punish people who were perceived as being different or outside the mainstream, such as LGBTQ+ individuals.
Overall, the petition and the broader movement it was part of sought to challenge and dismantle these laws as a way of promoting greater freedom and autonomy for individuals in matters of sexuality and personal relationships. 115.166.3.9 ( talk) 09:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
According to this article [1] the petition's intention was to resolve the double standards between homosexuals and heterosexuals (that's why the wikipedia page mentions people being accused of pedophilia as being kept in jail for years based on accusations alone).
There's an interview [2] in which they basically just jabber on about how complex an issue it is. It ends with: "In any case, if one listens to what a child says and if he says 'I didn't mind,' that doesn't have the legal value of 'I consent.' But I'm also very mistrustful of that formal recognition of consent on the part of a minor, because I know it will never be obtained and is meaningless in any case."
So that's someone having signed the petition saying that children can't really legally consent.
According to this article [3] in France, "In the 19th century, the age at which children were considered sexual minors was 11; later, it was raised to 13, and since 1945, it has been 15."
The Wikipedia page, under the heading 'Legacy" states "In 1982, the French government removed its clauses regarding sodomy and similar acts "against nature" from the 1945 ordinance."
That seemed to have been why the petitioning didn't continue, because the double standard against homosexual relations was seen to be resolved... which seems to be what the whole thing was about - removing the double standards on gay people and their having sexual relations. But maybe there's also some what of an anarchist undercurrent to the whole thing. 115.166.3.9 ( talk) 09:28, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
The purpose of this petition is unclear. While we should establish that this is not the left trying to support pedophiles (one can misconstrue the petition quite easily), it is also important to note the objective of the signatories. While it would be illogical to say they were legit pedophiles trying to get a freedom ticket, we must consider the true motivations of the signatories. First, it is apparent that they were for the liberation of homosexuality, as stated by the petition's text. Furthermore, this appears to be a protest against the inequity of hetero/homosexual relationships when it comes to the age of consent in France, stating that if a child can be held liable for crimes, they should also be able to consent to sexual acts with adults. As a person on the left, I do not endorse pedophilia, and nobody on the left would/should enable child molesters to act out their atrocious fantasies; while there were fringe movements, nobody on the left of their respective counties caught on (thank goodness).
Anyways, it appears that the objective of the creator was to advance gay rights, not to enable pedophiles. If anything, the whole "legalizing sex with kids" part was just nonsense to turn heads towards their cause, and not to actually liberate pedophilia. As stated by the above topic, it appears that equalizing age of consent laws for hetero/homosexual relationships was the goal, with the other elements being an attention-getter.
Again, the left does not endorse pedophiles. We are not part of some pedo-satanic cult of intellectuals plotting the end of the world or something. In conclusion, the objective was not pedophile liberation, but rather the advancement of gay rights in France.
TL;DR please list the purpose of the petition in clear words on the page; we do not need people thinking this was some pro-pedophile campaign by creeps of a specific ideology. That said, the addition of the motivations of the signatories would be beneficial to the understanding of this petition. It is evident that the signatories did not support pedophiles and used that element as a method of getting attention to their cause (aka gay liberation), and not enabling pedophiles. Basically, they used the "no age of consent laws" as a point of turn heads, not actually liberate pedophiles.
Western Progressivist (
talk) 18:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I think this page is not up to the standard of quality and context the French wikipedia page provides and lacks nuance and key historical context that situates the petition with the Versailles case. The wiki editors for the English page have a clear agenda to obfuscate and mystify the very complex workings of this key watershed moment in French history and must do better with their sources. The French Wikipedia page is miles better when discussing this topic providing relevant context and quotes regarding this.
https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_de_Versailles https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A9titions_en_France_concernant_la_majorit%C3%A9_sexuelle 2A00:23C7:A8AF:B101:2644:B991:D2EC:F606 ( talk) 13:24, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
I've removed this phrase from the article recently as there has not been "statutory rape" clause in France until 2021.
In France, it is illegal for an adult to have sex with a minor under the age of 15. But it is not automatically considered rape, unlike in countries with statutory rape laws where people who are underage are considered incapable of giving consent.( The New York Times)
See, for example, the above article from January 2020. I believe this is probably the result of a poor translation (the whole article seems to be the result of multiple poor translations). ~ F4U ( talk • they/it) 04:26, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
Did Guérin sign the 1979 petition? None of the sources for that section mention his name at all as far as I can tell. Zerothenerd ( talk) 11:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)