![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Just so no one panics... User:Ardenn has archived the previous discussions. We had hit a lull in the discussion anyway. Blueboar 21:27, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Hint: When archiving, leave the last few relevant and still active discussions on the talk page. Jachin 05:59, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
You meanlike this? Harrypotter 09:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Blueboar reverted some of my text, which is OK as he explained why. While I disagree with the verifiaphobia, I've not inserted the quotes in to the text, but simply changing the claims so that they no longer say things such as "in fact".
The quotes that have been taken out are emboldened:
and
JASpencer 18:11, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I know we talked about this above... but I want to revisit it. This section needs some work... It really does not belong where it is. However, I do think it is important, and don't think we should cut it (It should probably lead off the "Criticisms" section). Given that Cardinal Razinger is now Pope Benedict, his past statements about Freemasonry potentially take on new significance. I also think we need to provide some background... we should mention the fact that traditionally the Church has not approved of Freemasonry, and banned Catholics from joining; then we can (briefly) talk about the recent changes in Cannon Law that led many to think that the Church had relaxed its stance; which would give some context as to why Law and Ratzinger made the statements that are currently in the article. Blueboar 02:27, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Quaesitum est should answer any questions that you have. See Quaesitum est discussion for questions relating to it. [[[User:Simonapro|Simonapro]] 12:57, 3 May 2006 (UTC)]
I have deleted the following line from the "Christian religious opposition" section: "Freemasonry has at times and in certain places been heavily Christianised, while in other times and places been thoroughly anti-clerical." I know what this line is trying to say... but it has problems. Being Christianized is not an opposite of being anti-clerical. One can be Christian and anti-clerical, Christian and pro-clerical (if that is a word), Non-Christian and pro-clerical, Non-Christian and anti-clerical. In regards to Masonry (especially if you include irregular Masonry) both halves of the statement are historically true... but they made no sense linked together the way they were. Blueboar 13:02, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I am a Mason who has converted to the Roman Catholic faith. I made disclosure to my priest during my schooling for conversion and he said there was no problem. I also know many fellow Catholics who are Freemasons and no one from the church hassles them.
72.48.120.65 02:41, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
That's nice. I would hope no one would give you any trouble. Freemasonry is more elastic than most, and I see no problem with you converting whatsoever. I mean, what is there to be maad about, really? The possibility of any of the allegations against freemasonry being truthful are so slim that to bring them up is laughably silly, we would not have survived this long as a society if there was anything inherently evil occuring within the order, we would have been found out centuries ago and destroyed. Only the ignorant seem ot find cause to loathe us. But that too, is falling by the wayside as awareness replaces palpal bulls and ecclesiastical decrees of heresies. Best of luck to you brother.
NOTE: above was by 65.148.152.134. Imacomp 16:59, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
"The possibility of any of the allegations against freemasonry being truthful are so slim that to bring them up is laughably silly" seems to indicate that any criticism of freemasonry is already discounted, even before it has been enunciated. Also, as the range of criticism encompasses such a broad range of people, to close our minds to even the possibility seems to be wilfully blind. Harrypotter 18:00, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I too am going to have to disagree with Imacomp when he/she said "the possibility of any of the allegations against freemasonry being truthful are so slim that to bring them up is laughably silly." Probably the best elucidation of the R.C. Church's issue with Freemasonry is made in Pope Leo XIII's encyclical "Humanum Genus," issued 20 April 1884. In that encyclical, the Pope enumerated Freemasonry's sins, to wit: 1) That Freemasonry admits "persons of every creed," thereby promoting "the great modern error of religious indifference and of the parity of all worships, 2) that Freemasonry "leaves to the members full liberty of thinking about God whatever they like," 3) that Freemasons "trust the education of their children to laymen and allow them to select their own religions when they grow up," 4) that Freemasons believe that "the people are sovereign," and that "those who rule have no authority but by the commission and concession of the people," thereby denying the divine right of Princes, 5) that Freemasonry teaches that "the origin of all rights and civil duties is in the people or in the state." Pope Leo went on to state that it is "a capital error to grant to the people full power of shaking off at their own will the yoke of obedience." Now, I would submit that these charges, historically levelled by the Roman Church agains the Masonic fraternity are NOT false charges, but quite the contrary. I believe, and I think most Freemasons would have to admit, that Freemasonry and its members are entirely guilty of these charges. PGNormand 19:01, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
There are many priests who are not in touch with all of the teachings of the RCC. When corrected by a Bishop they will usually stand by that correction. To be corrected by a Cardinal is another matter... especially when that Cardinal turns into the current Pope who is prefect of the "Declaration on Masonic Associations ( Quaesitum est )", which is very clear... "The faithful, who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion." It is the duty of every Catholic to inform a misinformed clery member about Quaesitum Est. [[[User:Simonapro|Simonapro]] 22:26, 2 May 2006 (UTC)]
I know this is going to be a somewhat controversial topic, so I thought it might be useful to discuss the title of the page, before even starting. I had thought that Anarchism and Freemasonry might be a useful topic, but it is apparent that it would be better if this was just one section of a more expansive article which took full account of Philippe Buonarroti's activities as well as the story of 1848. I have added a bit to the Adolphe Thiers page, about his encounter with the masonic delegation. What do people think? Harrypotter 10:12, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, Boris Nicolaevsky uses the term in his text Secret Societies in the First International and I have always found ghis work inpressive in comparison with some of the more sensationalist writers. His article is well documented including items like Professor Jean Bossu's "Une loge de proscrits à Londres sous le Second Empire et apres la Commune" originally published in 'L'idée libre', a now defunct monthly magazine dsitributed only to French masonic lodges. If you check the recent insertion I have made as regards Adolphe Thiers, you will see that he precisely rejects the overtures made by the procession of fellow freemasons to him during the Paris Commune. I think its is clear that the somewhat sanguine explanation you offer may hold true for much of what UGLE regards as regular freemasonry but hardly offers an adequate account of actual experiences in all lodges, and that particularly during the nineteenth century something recognisable as a distinctive modus operandi called Revolutionary Freemasonry is a useful conception. I shall look at the History of Freemasonry however to see how fruitful that might be, but I think it may be too tangential for that page. Harrypotter 19:01, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Why do you keep linking to non-articles called Anarchism and Freemasonry and Revolutionary Freemasonry? Why not post your conspiracy theories to those articles, or try anti-Masonry? Imacomp 19:07, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I notice that someone has taken the trouble to delete this link, without even the courtesy of a comment on the talk page. Rather than letting people imagine why this action was taken, perhaps a word of explnation here would be of use? Harrypotter 12:42, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I have added a page on Grand Orient as the Grand Lodge page is scarcely adequate. No doubt much more work on it is required to get it up to scratch. Harrypot ter 21:00, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I read that the Freemasons have an intrinsic relationship with ancient Egypt. Is that true, and if so, how? Nicholasink 23:42, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Note that crap will not stick there very long. Imacomp 18:19, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
"Similarly, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, in Washington, DC, recognises that Freemasons were persecuted by the Nazi state, and its archive has amassed a large collection of archival materials from throughout Europe that documents Freemasonry's persecution. Descriptions of these materials may be found by searching the online catalogue of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Archives. Further, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's online Holocaust Encyclopedia also has two articles about Freemasonry and its fate during the Third Reich." This needs cited references before inserting it into the article. Note reworking stuff already there is inadvisable, since every word has been heavily discussed before. Thanks. Imacomp 19:37, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Which part of "Holocaust stays" do other editors not understand? this is a very inportant contribution to the balance of the main Freemasonry article - and is a much overlooked part of our cultural history. Imacomp 20:26, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I'd logged out of here, but on return - 20:52, 30 April 2006 Blueboar edit is OK :) Imacomp 20:57, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
FYI - User:VQHernandez has been confirmed as another Lightbringer puppet. We can feel free to revert anything he added. Blueboar 14:16, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Ah, Lightbringer and his eternal crusade to .. uhm, annoy the crap out of Wikipedian editors with his insane drivel, rants and POV pushing. Jachin 15:24, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone else find a source for this? All the sources I find online are derived from either wikipedia, or Rui Gabirro.-- Vidkun 01:41, 25 April 2006 (UTC
Reformatted and shortened section using the summary style used elsewhere on page. Jake the wiki 12:14, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Proposed Changes. Since you have not explained why you think this section of the article should not contain the same editorial page style as the remainder of the page(except to perpetuate your pro-masonic pov bias and your preference for poorly written and amateurish masonic in-group prose) I shall make the changes on the page.
Yes, of course the brief subpage descriptions are taken from the subpages themselves introduction. That is the entire point! Jake the wiki 13:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Anti-Masonry (alternatively called Anti-Freemasonry) is defined as "Avowed opposition to Freemasonry". [1] However, there is no homogeneous anti-Masonic movement. Anti-Masonry consists of radically differing criticisms from sometimes incompatible groups who are hostile to Freemasonry in some form.
Christianity and Freemasonry have had a mixed relationship, with various Christian denominations banning or discouraging members from being Freemasons. Freemasonry has at times and in certain places been heavily Christianised, while in other times and places been thoroughly anti-clerical [2].
The Catholic Church has often been seen to be in conflict with Freemasonry, a fraternity it sees as tending to anticlericalism. The Church forbids Catholics from becoming Freemasons while Freemasonry allows Catholics to become members.
Shortened introduction removing info that is too detailed for an introductory. Info already contained elsewhere in article in any case. Jake the wiki 12:14, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I've been off-line for a few days, and seems that I missed some Lightbringer fun :) Imacomp 20:31, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I've put him on WP:CHECK. Ardenn 02:40, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Why are there two sections here? RC was Christian the last time I looked, although I appreciate some of the evangelical churches don't tend to agree. Would it not be more reasonable to group the two sections and lose the Catholicism header? ALR 12:31, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I know nothing about the history of why it is the way it is but it does make sense to keep them apart as doctrinal matters are handled differently between Catholics and Protestants. Protestants use Sola Fide for doctrinal matters while Catholics use the teachings of the magisterium of the RCC for doctrinal matters. Hence some Protestants would have no problem with Masonic association if they feel the ‘Holy Spirit’ as per Sola Fide has not revealed anything negative about this to them. [[[User:Simonapro|Simonapro]] 21:50, 3 May 2006 (UTC)]
Have y'all thought about starting a Freemasonry Wikiproject? Ardenn 23:44, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
With regards http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry#Christian_religious_opposition
Quaesitum est says it is forbidden, not discouraged. I quote "Therefore the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden." If you have a problem with this please discuss here. Thank you. Simonapro 00:03, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Further to this discussion, a relevant criticism has been offered by myself on the subjective or objective analysis of the Canon Law in question: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Quaesitum_est#Subjective_or_Objective_Interpretation
It may be of use when establishing whether or not the Catholic church still holds it's old views on the subject matter. Jachin 08:51, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
If we do not understand the canon law the church has formally issued Quasitum est to clarify what that law means. [[[User:Simonapro|Simonapro]] 10:29, 6 May 2006 (UTC)]
The section on Origin Theories has gotten a bit bizarre. There is an entire paragraph beginning with the unverifiable (and unsubstantiated) premise "it is thought by many..." (big yawn). It continues by challenging the "transition" of Freemasonry from the medieval stonemasons guilds. The paragraph gives two reasons for challenging the transition: 1) that stonemasons lived near their building sites and did not need "secret signs", and 2) that the rules provided in the Ancient Charges are "nonsensical" as rules for operative lodges. I've got questions for the author of this paragraph: 1) "who" are these "many" that think this? 2) I"ve never read that anyone has ever stated that the operative freemasons had "secret signs", or grips or passwords. I believe those are the inventions of the early speculatives. And 3) the Ancient Charges are entirely appropriate rules of behavior for operative masons. Where they become "quaint" and archaic is when they are applied to later speculative Freemasons. Unless someone can give me good reason to keep the above paragraph, I'm going to flush it.
PGNormand
08:13, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
It should be noted that the current
User:24.64.223.203 is strongly suspected of being yet another
User:Lightbringer puppet. I say "current", because it seems that this IP address is registered to px1cv.gv.shawcable.net and is shared by multiple users. It should be noted, however, that this is the same ISP which all the other Lightbringer puppets have used. I have reported this at check user... and the IP was blocked for a time. However, because it is used by multiple users it is difficult for admins to keep it blocked.
It has previously been determined that the 3RR rule does not apply to reverting Lightbringer Sock edits (they count as vandalism). Thus, we should feel free to revert his edits without explanation or fear. However, I did want to leave a record of this that we can point to in case one of us is blocked by an admin who is unfamiliar with the situation.
Blueboar
13:24, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
We have no problem with with editorial input that portrays Freemasonry in a critical light... if made by OTHER users. YOUR input, on the other hand, we do have a problem with... since you have been banned from editing these pages. Thus, even if you added something that portraid the Craft in a positive light, your input would be struck on principle. 'Nuff said... now go away. Blueboar 14:18, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Anybody have detailled information about this picture? Should it be moved into the article? Scriberius 06:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
With the latest outbreak of Lightbringer activity, using an IP-adress instead of a username, I've requested semiprotection for this page and the others I can see he has been hitting. WegianWarrior 21:28, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone say nutjob? Sheesh. Look, I hate to be the one to voice this opinion, but we're all thinking it; would excluding everyone from his ISP be such a horrible thing from this article? The chances of someone else from his ISP accessing let alone editing this article are slim to one. We can't assume he is using a static IP either, thus a subnet or host ban is in order. Jachin 10:54, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I believe this page has been protected from editing due to the background knowledge some people may have of the Freemasons and as such, it has been protected so noone will ever be able to know the true secrets of the freemasons. 206.159.133.201 13:05, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Just so no one panics... User:Ardenn has archived the previous discussions. We had hit a lull in the discussion anyway. Blueboar 21:27, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Hint: When archiving, leave the last few relevant and still active discussions on the talk page. Jachin 05:59, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
You meanlike this? Harrypotter 09:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Blueboar reverted some of my text, which is OK as he explained why. While I disagree with the verifiaphobia, I've not inserted the quotes in to the text, but simply changing the claims so that they no longer say things such as "in fact".
The quotes that have been taken out are emboldened:
and
JASpencer 18:11, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I know we talked about this above... but I want to revisit it. This section needs some work... It really does not belong where it is. However, I do think it is important, and don't think we should cut it (It should probably lead off the "Criticisms" section). Given that Cardinal Razinger is now Pope Benedict, his past statements about Freemasonry potentially take on new significance. I also think we need to provide some background... we should mention the fact that traditionally the Church has not approved of Freemasonry, and banned Catholics from joining; then we can (briefly) talk about the recent changes in Cannon Law that led many to think that the Church had relaxed its stance; which would give some context as to why Law and Ratzinger made the statements that are currently in the article. Blueboar 02:27, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Quaesitum est should answer any questions that you have. See Quaesitum est discussion for questions relating to it. [[[User:Simonapro|Simonapro]] 12:57, 3 May 2006 (UTC)]
I have deleted the following line from the "Christian religious opposition" section: "Freemasonry has at times and in certain places been heavily Christianised, while in other times and places been thoroughly anti-clerical." I know what this line is trying to say... but it has problems. Being Christianized is not an opposite of being anti-clerical. One can be Christian and anti-clerical, Christian and pro-clerical (if that is a word), Non-Christian and pro-clerical, Non-Christian and anti-clerical. In regards to Masonry (especially if you include irregular Masonry) both halves of the statement are historically true... but they made no sense linked together the way they were. Blueboar 13:02, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I am a Mason who has converted to the Roman Catholic faith. I made disclosure to my priest during my schooling for conversion and he said there was no problem. I also know many fellow Catholics who are Freemasons and no one from the church hassles them.
72.48.120.65 02:41, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
That's nice. I would hope no one would give you any trouble. Freemasonry is more elastic than most, and I see no problem with you converting whatsoever. I mean, what is there to be maad about, really? The possibility of any of the allegations against freemasonry being truthful are so slim that to bring them up is laughably silly, we would not have survived this long as a society if there was anything inherently evil occuring within the order, we would have been found out centuries ago and destroyed. Only the ignorant seem ot find cause to loathe us. But that too, is falling by the wayside as awareness replaces palpal bulls and ecclesiastical decrees of heresies. Best of luck to you brother.
NOTE: above was by 65.148.152.134. Imacomp 16:59, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
"The possibility of any of the allegations against freemasonry being truthful are so slim that to bring them up is laughably silly" seems to indicate that any criticism of freemasonry is already discounted, even before it has been enunciated. Also, as the range of criticism encompasses such a broad range of people, to close our minds to even the possibility seems to be wilfully blind. Harrypotter 18:00, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I too am going to have to disagree with Imacomp when he/she said "the possibility of any of the allegations against freemasonry being truthful are so slim that to bring them up is laughably silly." Probably the best elucidation of the R.C. Church's issue with Freemasonry is made in Pope Leo XIII's encyclical "Humanum Genus," issued 20 April 1884. In that encyclical, the Pope enumerated Freemasonry's sins, to wit: 1) That Freemasonry admits "persons of every creed," thereby promoting "the great modern error of religious indifference and of the parity of all worships, 2) that Freemasonry "leaves to the members full liberty of thinking about God whatever they like," 3) that Freemasons "trust the education of their children to laymen and allow them to select their own religions when they grow up," 4) that Freemasons believe that "the people are sovereign," and that "those who rule have no authority but by the commission and concession of the people," thereby denying the divine right of Princes, 5) that Freemasonry teaches that "the origin of all rights and civil duties is in the people or in the state." Pope Leo went on to state that it is "a capital error to grant to the people full power of shaking off at their own will the yoke of obedience." Now, I would submit that these charges, historically levelled by the Roman Church agains the Masonic fraternity are NOT false charges, but quite the contrary. I believe, and I think most Freemasons would have to admit, that Freemasonry and its members are entirely guilty of these charges. PGNormand 19:01, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
There are many priests who are not in touch with all of the teachings of the RCC. When corrected by a Bishop they will usually stand by that correction. To be corrected by a Cardinal is another matter... especially when that Cardinal turns into the current Pope who is prefect of the "Declaration on Masonic Associations ( Quaesitum est )", which is very clear... "The faithful, who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion." It is the duty of every Catholic to inform a misinformed clery member about Quaesitum Est. [[[User:Simonapro|Simonapro]] 22:26, 2 May 2006 (UTC)]
I know this is going to be a somewhat controversial topic, so I thought it might be useful to discuss the title of the page, before even starting. I had thought that Anarchism and Freemasonry might be a useful topic, but it is apparent that it would be better if this was just one section of a more expansive article which took full account of Philippe Buonarroti's activities as well as the story of 1848. I have added a bit to the Adolphe Thiers page, about his encounter with the masonic delegation. What do people think? Harrypotter 10:12, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, Boris Nicolaevsky uses the term in his text Secret Societies in the First International and I have always found ghis work inpressive in comparison with some of the more sensationalist writers. His article is well documented including items like Professor Jean Bossu's "Une loge de proscrits à Londres sous le Second Empire et apres la Commune" originally published in 'L'idée libre', a now defunct monthly magazine dsitributed only to French masonic lodges. If you check the recent insertion I have made as regards Adolphe Thiers, you will see that he precisely rejects the overtures made by the procession of fellow freemasons to him during the Paris Commune. I think its is clear that the somewhat sanguine explanation you offer may hold true for much of what UGLE regards as regular freemasonry but hardly offers an adequate account of actual experiences in all lodges, and that particularly during the nineteenth century something recognisable as a distinctive modus operandi called Revolutionary Freemasonry is a useful conception. I shall look at the History of Freemasonry however to see how fruitful that might be, but I think it may be too tangential for that page. Harrypotter 19:01, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Why do you keep linking to non-articles called Anarchism and Freemasonry and Revolutionary Freemasonry? Why not post your conspiracy theories to those articles, or try anti-Masonry? Imacomp 19:07, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I notice that someone has taken the trouble to delete this link, without even the courtesy of a comment on the talk page. Rather than letting people imagine why this action was taken, perhaps a word of explnation here would be of use? Harrypotter 12:42, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I have added a page on Grand Orient as the Grand Lodge page is scarcely adequate. No doubt much more work on it is required to get it up to scratch. Harrypot ter 21:00, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I read that the Freemasons have an intrinsic relationship with ancient Egypt. Is that true, and if so, how? Nicholasink 23:42, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Note that crap will not stick there very long. Imacomp 18:19, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
"Similarly, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, in Washington, DC, recognises that Freemasons were persecuted by the Nazi state, and its archive has amassed a large collection of archival materials from throughout Europe that documents Freemasonry's persecution. Descriptions of these materials may be found by searching the online catalogue of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Archives. Further, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's online Holocaust Encyclopedia also has two articles about Freemasonry and its fate during the Third Reich." This needs cited references before inserting it into the article. Note reworking stuff already there is inadvisable, since every word has been heavily discussed before. Thanks. Imacomp 19:37, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Which part of "Holocaust stays" do other editors not understand? this is a very inportant contribution to the balance of the main Freemasonry article - and is a much overlooked part of our cultural history. Imacomp 20:26, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I'd logged out of here, but on return - 20:52, 30 April 2006 Blueboar edit is OK :) Imacomp 20:57, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
FYI - User:VQHernandez has been confirmed as another Lightbringer puppet. We can feel free to revert anything he added. Blueboar 14:16, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Ah, Lightbringer and his eternal crusade to .. uhm, annoy the crap out of Wikipedian editors with his insane drivel, rants and POV pushing. Jachin 15:24, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone else find a source for this? All the sources I find online are derived from either wikipedia, or Rui Gabirro.-- Vidkun 01:41, 25 April 2006 (UTC
Reformatted and shortened section using the summary style used elsewhere on page. Jake the wiki 12:14, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Proposed Changes. Since you have not explained why you think this section of the article should not contain the same editorial page style as the remainder of the page(except to perpetuate your pro-masonic pov bias and your preference for poorly written and amateurish masonic in-group prose) I shall make the changes on the page.
Yes, of course the brief subpage descriptions are taken from the subpages themselves introduction. That is the entire point! Jake the wiki 13:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Anti-Masonry (alternatively called Anti-Freemasonry) is defined as "Avowed opposition to Freemasonry". [1] However, there is no homogeneous anti-Masonic movement. Anti-Masonry consists of radically differing criticisms from sometimes incompatible groups who are hostile to Freemasonry in some form.
Christianity and Freemasonry have had a mixed relationship, with various Christian denominations banning or discouraging members from being Freemasons. Freemasonry has at times and in certain places been heavily Christianised, while in other times and places been thoroughly anti-clerical [2].
The Catholic Church has often been seen to be in conflict with Freemasonry, a fraternity it sees as tending to anticlericalism. The Church forbids Catholics from becoming Freemasons while Freemasonry allows Catholics to become members.
Shortened introduction removing info that is too detailed for an introductory. Info already contained elsewhere in article in any case. Jake the wiki 12:14, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I've been off-line for a few days, and seems that I missed some Lightbringer fun :) Imacomp 20:31, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I've put him on WP:CHECK. Ardenn 02:40, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Why are there two sections here? RC was Christian the last time I looked, although I appreciate some of the evangelical churches don't tend to agree. Would it not be more reasonable to group the two sections and lose the Catholicism header? ALR 12:31, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I know nothing about the history of why it is the way it is but it does make sense to keep them apart as doctrinal matters are handled differently between Catholics and Protestants. Protestants use Sola Fide for doctrinal matters while Catholics use the teachings of the magisterium of the RCC for doctrinal matters. Hence some Protestants would have no problem with Masonic association if they feel the ‘Holy Spirit’ as per Sola Fide has not revealed anything negative about this to them. [[[User:Simonapro|Simonapro]] 21:50, 3 May 2006 (UTC)]
Have y'all thought about starting a Freemasonry Wikiproject? Ardenn 23:44, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
With regards http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry#Christian_religious_opposition
Quaesitum est says it is forbidden, not discouraged. I quote "Therefore the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden." If you have a problem with this please discuss here. Thank you. Simonapro 00:03, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Further to this discussion, a relevant criticism has been offered by myself on the subjective or objective analysis of the Canon Law in question: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Quaesitum_est#Subjective_or_Objective_Interpretation
It may be of use when establishing whether or not the Catholic church still holds it's old views on the subject matter. Jachin 08:51, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
If we do not understand the canon law the church has formally issued Quasitum est to clarify what that law means. [[[User:Simonapro|Simonapro]] 10:29, 6 May 2006 (UTC)]
The section on Origin Theories has gotten a bit bizarre. There is an entire paragraph beginning with the unverifiable (and unsubstantiated) premise "it is thought by many..." (big yawn). It continues by challenging the "transition" of Freemasonry from the medieval stonemasons guilds. The paragraph gives two reasons for challenging the transition: 1) that stonemasons lived near their building sites and did not need "secret signs", and 2) that the rules provided in the Ancient Charges are "nonsensical" as rules for operative lodges. I've got questions for the author of this paragraph: 1) "who" are these "many" that think this? 2) I"ve never read that anyone has ever stated that the operative freemasons had "secret signs", or grips or passwords. I believe those are the inventions of the early speculatives. And 3) the Ancient Charges are entirely appropriate rules of behavior for operative masons. Where they become "quaint" and archaic is when they are applied to later speculative Freemasons. Unless someone can give me good reason to keep the above paragraph, I'm going to flush it.
PGNormand
08:13, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
It should be noted that the current
User:24.64.223.203 is strongly suspected of being yet another
User:Lightbringer puppet. I say "current", because it seems that this IP address is registered to px1cv.gv.shawcable.net and is shared by multiple users. It should be noted, however, that this is the same ISP which all the other Lightbringer puppets have used. I have reported this at check user... and the IP was blocked for a time. However, because it is used by multiple users it is difficult for admins to keep it blocked.
It has previously been determined that the 3RR rule does not apply to reverting Lightbringer Sock edits (they count as vandalism). Thus, we should feel free to revert his edits without explanation or fear. However, I did want to leave a record of this that we can point to in case one of us is blocked by an admin who is unfamiliar with the situation.
Blueboar
13:24, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
We have no problem with with editorial input that portrays Freemasonry in a critical light... if made by OTHER users. YOUR input, on the other hand, we do have a problem with... since you have been banned from editing these pages. Thus, even if you added something that portraid the Craft in a positive light, your input would be struck on principle. 'Nuff said... now go away. Blueboar 14:18, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Anybody have detailled information about this picture? Should it be moved into the article? Scriberius 06:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
With the latest outbreak of Lightbringer activity, using an IP-adress instead of a username, I've requested semiprotection for this page and the others I can see he has been hitting. WegianWarrior 21:28, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone say nutjob? Sheesh. Look, I hate to be the one to voice this opinion, but we're all thinking it; would excluding everyone from his ISP be such a horrible thing from this article? The chances of someone else from his ISP accessing let alone editing this article are slim to one. We can't assume he is using a static IP either, thus a subnet or host ban is in order. Jachin 10:54, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I believe this page has been protected from editing due to the background knowledge some people may have of the Freemasons and as such, it has been protected so noone will ever be able to know the true secrets of the freemasons. 206.159.133.201 13:05, 9 May 2006 (UTC)