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From the text:
" [The Austrian Freedom Party] attracted a wide range of adherents from anti-clerical liberals worried about Catholic Austria's potential isolation from the outside world to German nationalists, a minority of whom would have even been sympathetic to some Nazi policies."
As always, this is not a rhetorical question: Do we want this kind of language here? Or would we prefer the straightforward "A considerable percentage of party members were former Nazis." ? <KF> 20:20, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Re: the recent split in the party, what exactly are the issues that caused the split? Right now it's extremely vague. john k 4 July 2005 15:31 (UTC)
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Jezhotwells ( talk) 19:53, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status.
Disambiguations: Großdeutschland is a disambiguation page, not sure how you want to resolve that. I found no obvious target. Jezhotwells ( talk) 21:31, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Linkrot: none found. Jezhotwells ( talk) 21:32, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Substantive review will be posted within 24 hours. Jezhotwells ( talk) 01:12, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
I see a copy-edit is in progress, I will check again when it has been competed. Jezhotwells ( talk) 18:57, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
I would like to see the source for "Ideologically the party is a direct descendant of the German national liberal camp, which dates back to the 1848 revolutions.". The FPÖ was founded as VdU, a group of former NSDAP-members in the early post-war era. Some Observers say, that the party was right-populist, Heribert Schiedel, Anton Pelinka ( [1]) and others describe the FPÖ as right-extremist. The FPÖ describes itself as a descendant of the national-liberal camp, but I could not find a independent source for this information. --20:51, 22 May 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Liberaler Humanist ( talk • contribs)
I think it is notable for a neutral article about FPÖ that it is alyways labeled as far-right in mainstream media around the world ( CNN, BBC, Spiegel, New York Times, Deutsche Welle, LA Times, Guardian, AFP, Telegraph, Al Jazeera, Reuters, Independent, TIME, MSNBC etc. pp.) I think it is conspicuous and unbalanced not to mention this fact. Do you agree? -- RJFF ( talk) 17:53, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
But is the party far right? The description is "Ideologically, the party is a direct descendant of the German national liberal camp, which dates back to the 1848 revolution". That doesn't sound very far right to me. 203.184.41.226 ( talk) 05:43, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
The liberal national ideology consists on the concept of "Greater Germany", Reunification in "Deutsche Land", as the article says. That is the original ideology.-- 83.34.223.50 ( talk) 04:06, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
The only source I could find in the footnotes that could verify (current) "national liberalism", is the statement of Mölzer in Die Presse. It states that Mölzer sees himself as national liberal, not that the party as a whole is national liberal. So, it is both non-NPOV and Original Research to conclude from the ideology of one individual (I admit: notable) member to the ideology of the whole party. The same with national conservatism. Mrs. Rosenkranz herself states that she was a national conservative. It does not mean that the party as a whole has to bear that label, too. The conclusion "F.P. has been national liberal in the past, so it still is today" looks like OR to me, as well. If it really is national liberal, it should be very easy to find reliable sources to verify it. But I could not find any. Especially in a Good Article, fundamental Wikipedia principles like verifiability, NPOV, and no OR should be applied.
Moreover, in my opinion the sentence "International reputable media habitually denote the Freedom Party of Austria as far right." with reference to reliable sources is more balanced and fits a Good Article better than the statement "The F.P. is a far right, populist political party" without references. If you think it is poor, you can make it better. And if you think it does not belong to the ideology section, or the lead section, you can put it somewhere else.
Kind regards -- RJFF ( talk) 19:19, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
Far-right translates to "rechtsaußen" or "rechtsrechts" in Austrian German. "Rechtsextremistisch" would be right-wing extremist. So far-right is the correct label, both in Austrian and, also important in the English wikipedia, international view.
Moreover, above I gave a most detailed rationale for removing the ideology tags from the infobox. One more: Euroscepticism is not defining the ideology of the F.P. to an extent that it should be included in the infobox. Only main influences of the ideology should be included here. It is appropriate for parties that were particularly founded as anti-EU parties, which the F.P. is not. Additionally, euroscepticism usually comes along with right-wing extremism. If you disagree, please discuss this, rather than reverting without comment - which is, as you know, considered rude and not accepted. Kindest regards -- RJFF ( talk) 17:03, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Hello. I would prefer to conduct the edits I proposed, with your approval. Unfortunately, I have the impression that both of you, Bellatores and Miacek, have no particular interest in discussion. I would kindly ask you to talk about your concerns, if you have any objections. I believe that I provided a good deal of arguments for my edits, but alas, I could not notice that you faced up to them. Warm regards -- RJFF ( talk) 13:58, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
All right. That is straightforward. I can accept this. The source material for "national conservatism" is still a bit slim (one German newspaper article! Usually you don't rely on German newspaper articles, do you? Especially when they use "right-wing populism...") But I cannot complain. One last question: do you think that euroscepticism is really that important? Thank you for finally working together. Good night. -- RJFF ( talk) 20:48, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
AUSTRIAN REUNIFICATION WITH DEUTSCHLAND As the article says, the "liberal national" ideology always supported Austrian Reunification with Deutschland. So, if now the policy is the opposite, they are not liberal nationalists but Zionists (as the visit to Israel has confirmed)-- 83.34.223.50 ( talk) 04:00, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, but it dosen't work
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I think "populist" should be replaced by "nationalist" or "nativist". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.154.204.109 ( talk) 11:50, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
Please check the definitions of populism, nationalism and nativism, as the three terms imply entirely different things. Sideshow Bob 12:11, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
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The info box statement "German nationalism" is sourced with the socialist Anton Pelinka, thus not being a neutral source. Plus it's outdated and describes Haider's FPÖ. I removed it and placed a citation needed instead. Either this or you delete "German nationalism" completely. Currently it's unsourced from a NeuPOV. -- 212.186.7.98 ( talk) 08:09, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
This collocation of terms has been used quite a lot according to another discussion I've been having at AFD. The rationale behind it are that since we can find some sources which say that a subject is far right and others which say right wing, that we can combine them and make a term which reflects the application of both terms.
This is synthesis. The problem is the word "to". In almost no cases where the term right wing to far right is employed on Wikipedia, is this term coupling backed by a source which specifically uses this phrase in a description of the party's position on the political spectrum. The word "to" implies that the specific position lies between points A (Right wing) and B (Far right). In cases where this has not been established by sources, we need to review the use of this terminology to ensure clarity for our readers and accuracy in adhering to source texts.
With this in mind, what would be the best term to use to describe this party in both the info box and the body of the article when referring to sources which describe their position on the political spectrum?
Edaham ( talk) 00:36, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
As I believe the ideology parametre is bloat, I believe it should be slimmed down to the following:
ValenciaThunderbolt ( talk) 16:00, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
Strongly agree, although I would limit it to just National conservatism and Right-wing populism (in that order), as Euroscepticism is a policy outlook, not an ideology as such. Autospark ( talk) 17:11, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
Should there be included on this page under "ideology" in the infobox a section like many other political parties have that describes its historical political leanings? There's definitely a case that it has shifted further right since Strache and has lost its liberal factions to LiF and later NEOS. The page for the PSL and Likud as well both have "Historical" political leanings separate to show the shift in the party's leanings over time. What are your thoughts about it? GlowstoneUnknown ( talk) 09:35, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
can you add anti-immigration, social conservatism and welfare chauvinism to the party's ideologies, please. I got two sources confirming the latter.
Wayback Machine (archive.org) 97.97.98.76 ( talk) 19:20, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
Freedom Party of Austria has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||
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This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
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From the text:
" [The Austrian Freedom Party] attracted a wide range of adherents from anti-clerical liberals worried about Catholic Austria's potential isolation from the outside world to German nationalists, a minority of whom would have even been sympathetic to some Nazi policies."
As always, this is not a rhetorical question: Do we want this kind of language here? Or would we prefer the straightforward "A considerable percentage of party members were former Nazis." ? <KF> 20:20, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Re: the recent split in the party, what exactly are the issues that caused the split? Right now it's extremely vague. john k 4 July 2005 15:31 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Jezhotwells ( talk) 19:53, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status.
Disambiguations: Großdeutschland is a disambiguation page, not sure how you want to resolve that. I found no obvious target. Jezhotwells ( talk) 21:31, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Linkrot: none found. Jezhotwells ( talk) 21:32, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Substantive review will be posted within 24 hours. Jezhotwells ( talk) 01:12, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
I see a copy-edit is in progress, I will check again when it has been competed. Jezhotwells ( talk) 18:57, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
I would like to see the source for "Ideologically the party is a direct descendant of the German national liberal camp, which dates back to the 1848 revolutions.". The FPÖ was founded as VdU, a group of former NSDAP-members in the early post-war era. Some Observers say, that the party was right-populist, Heribert Schiedel, Anton Pelinka ( [1]) and others describe the FPÖ as right-extremist. The FPÖ describes itself as a descendant of the national-liberal camp, but I could not find a independent source for this information. --20:51, 22 May 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Liberaler Humanist ( talk • contribs)
I think it is notable for a neutral article about FPÖ that it is alyways labeled as far-right in mainstream media around the world ( CNN, BBC, Spiegel, New York Times, Deutsche Welle, LA Times, Guardian, AFP, Telegraph, Al Jazeera, Reuters, Independent, TIME, MSNBC etc. pp.) I think it is conspicuous and unbalanced not to mention this fact. Do you agree? -- RJFF ( talk) 17:53, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
But is the party far right? The description is "Ideologically, the party is a direct descendant of the German national liberal camp, which dates back to the 1848 revolution". That doesn't sound very far right to me. 203.184.41.226 ( talk) 05:43, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
The liberal national ideology consists on the concept of "Greater Germany", Reunification in "Deutsche Land", as the article says. That is the original ideology.-- 83.34.223.50 ( talk) 04:06, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
The only source I could find in the footnotes that could verify (current) "national liberalism", is the statement of Mölzer in Die Presse. It states that Mölzer sees himself as national liberal, not that the party as a whole is national liberal. So, it is both non-NPOV and Original Research to conclude from the ideology of one individual (I admit: notable) member to the ideology of the whole party. The same with national conservatism. Mrs. Rosenkranz herself states that she was a national conservative. It does not mean that the party as a whole has to bear that label, too. The conclusion "F.P. has been national liberal in the past, so it still is today" looks like OR to me, as well. If it really is national liberal, it should be very easy to find reliable sources to verify it. But I could not find any. Especially in a Good Article, fundamental Wikipedia principles like verifiability, NPOV, and no OR should be applied.
Moreover, in my opinion the sentence "International reputable media habitually denote the Freedom Party of Austria as far right." with reference to reliable sources is more balanced and fits a Good Article better than the statement "The F.P. is a far right, populist political party" without references. If you think it is poor, you can make it better. And if you think it does not belong to the ideology section, or the lead section, you can put it somewhere else.
Kind regards -- RJFF ( talk) 19:19, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
Far-right translates to "rechtsaußen" or "rechtsrechts" in Austrian German. "Rechtsextremistisch" would be right-wing extremist. So far-right is the correct label, both in Austrian and, also important in the English wikipedia, international view.
Moreover, above I gave a most detailed rationale for removing the ideology tags from the infobox. One more: Euroscepticism is not defining the ideology of the F.P. to an extent that it should be included in the infobox. Only main influences of the ideology should be included here. It is appropriate for parties that were particularly founded as anti-EU parties, which the F.P. is not. Additionally, euroscepticism usually comes along with right-wing extremism. If you disagree, please discuss this, rather than reverting without comment - which is, as you know, considered rude and not accepted. Kindest regards -- RJFF ( talk) 17:03, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Hello. I would prefer to conduct the edits I proposed, with your approval. Unfortunately, I have the impression that both of you, Bellatores and Miacek, have no particular interest in discussion. I would kindly ask you to talk about your concerns, if you have any objections. I believe that I provided a good deal of arguments for my edits, but alas, I could not notice that you faced up to them. Warm regards -- RJFF ( talk) 13:58, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
All right. That is straightforward. I can accept this. The source material for "national conservatism" is still a bit slim (one German newspaper article! Usually you don't rely on German newspaper articles, do you? Especially when they use "right-wing populism...") But I cannot complain. One last question: do you think that euroscepticism is really that important? Thank you for finally working together. Good night. -- RJFF ( talk) 20:48, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
AUSTRIAN REUNIFICATION WITH DEUTSCHLAND As the article says, the "liberal national" ideology always supported Austrian Reunification with Deutschland. So, if now the policy is the opposite, they are not liberal nationalists but Zionists (as the visit to Israel has confirmed)-- 83.34.223.50 ( talk) 04:00, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, but it dosen't work
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 15:51, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
I think "populist" should be replaced by "nationalist" or "nativist". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.154.204.109 ( talk) 11:50, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
Please check the definitions of populism, nationalism and nativism, as the three terms imply entirely different things. Sideshow Bob 12:11, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 11:38, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
The info box statement "German nationalism" is sourced with the socialist Anton Pelinka, thus not being a neutral source. Plus it's outdated and describes Haider's FPÖ. I removed it and placed a citation needed instead. Either this or you delete "German nationalism" completely. Currently it's unsourced from a NeuPOV. -- 212.186.7.98 ( talk) 08:09, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
This collocation of terms has been used quite a lot according to another discussion I've been having at AFD. The rationale behind it are that since we can find some sources which say that a subject is far right and others which say right wing, that we can combine them and make a term which reflects the application of both terms.
This is synthesis. The problem is the word "to". In almost no cases where the term right wing to far right is employed on Wikipedia, is this term coupling backed by a source which specifically uses this phrase in a description of the party's position on the political spectrum. The word "to" implies that the specific position lies between points A (Right wing) and B (Far right). In cases where this has not been established by sources, we need to review the use of this terminology to ensure clarity for our readers and accuracy in adhering to source texts.
With this in mind, what would be the best term to use to describe this party in both the info box and the body of the article when referring to sources which describe their position on the political spectrum?
Edaham ( talk) 00:36, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
As I believe the ideology parametre is bloat, I believe it should be slimmed down to the following:
ValenciaThunderbolt ( talk) 16:00, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
Strongly agree, although I would limit it to just National conservatism and Right-wing populism (in that order), as Euroscepticism is a policy outlook, not an ideology as such. Autospark ( talk) 17:11, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
Should there be included on this page under "ideology" in the infobox a section like many other political parties have that describes its historical political leanings? There's definitely a case that it has shifted further right since Strache and has lost its liberal factions to LiF and later NEOS. The page for the PSL and Likud as well both have "Historical" political leanings separate to show the shift in the party's leanings over time. What are your thoughts about it? GlowstoneUnknown ( talk) 09:35, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
can you add anti-immigration, social conservatism and welfare chauvinism to the party's ideologies, please. I got two sources confirming the latter.
Wayback Machine (archive.org) 97.97.98.76 ( talk) 19:20, 6 April 2024 (UTC)