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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 7 |
Page stated that Phelps' recent activities were "in collusion with" the Westboro congregation. "in collusion with" seems inflammatory/POV, so I changed.
I noticed that the caption under Phelps childhood picture says that his father was a "hooligan" and "sodomist" who regularly engaged with Phelps sr. It also states that today Phelps engages in sodomy with the male members of his family...Guys, I have a pretty good sense of smell towards vandalism, and this is one huge stinker of a plop that I smell. If its not gone after i finish writing this, i am removing it. - 72.161.134.123
All unsourced or poorly sourced negative material about a living person needs to be deleted on sight. I would suggest to involved editors, to review WP:BLP and proceed with cleanup as soon as possible. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:33, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
This is from the top section:
Is anyone trying to take away their right to protest? Steve Dufour 07:52, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
It's an Americo-centric view, actually: in Europe we are working towards a position of being safeguarded from hate-speech. In plain words that no-one may be denigrated in his being by the hate-speech of someone else, publicly. We all may wonder which is the better course, but we may not deny that there are, in liberal democracies, at least two courses which may be followed. MacMurrough 02:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I just went through and did some cleaning up of the external links section according to the guidelines at Wikipedia:External links — it needed some major work. Some of my changes were as follows:
For the editors who read here before adding new links — and thank you for checking the discussion page first — please make sure that they add something new, unique and significant that is not already covered by the other links. There are a TON of pages critiquing Phelps, a TON of interviews, and a TON of parody sites. Is the new link going to add something essential to this encyclopedic article that isn't already here? Could you instead add said content and use your link as a reference? Tijuana Brass ¡Épa! 22:00, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
This topic has suffered a lot of vandelism, regardless of Fred Phelps views or affiliation is it a good idea to lock the topic so that people who are just finding out about Fred Phelps can make there decision for themselves instead of having a vandels message preached at them?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Equlibrium ( talk • contribs) 22:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I have no doubt that Phelps or one of his family members are savvy enough to edit this page. Each time I come here, there are "citations needed" or they have been removed. Someone is playing around here. All of the citations in the article are directly verifiable through the references and external links. Can we please semi-protect this page so people who are partial to Phelps stop adding a 'FACT' tag to every sentence that they disagree with? BadMojoDE
Phelps' 'people' are on here, somewhat.(somewhat annon)
Is anybody able to tell me if this guy is serious or not? http://www.angelfire.com/on4/calebhamer
Very true, but look at Landover Baptist.
I looked up that Bible verse. They're confusing Mercury the car with Mercury the Romen god. That alone is sign of a spoof.
Phelps is very much for real. And he is very much a nut job. Landover Baptist is a satirical website. Beatdown 20:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I go away for just a little bit...
1) Phelps has 13 kids, not ten. Mark, Nate, Margie, Fred Jr., Jon, Tim, Abigal, Shirley, Rebecca, Katherine, Dot(Dorothy), Elizabeth, Rachel,
2) Someone claims to live in Westboro, then calls it a cult, and you respect their edits? The fact that the sentence "the majority of whom are not related to Phelps" has been allowed to stay in for more than a day boggles the mind.
3) As much as I would love to believe that Phelps was caught with another dude... I don't. Show me some proof.
4) Although he's hung up on "fag," Phelps does say "homosexual" a lot of the time. He doesn't "refuse" to use any other word.
216.7.248.254 16:54, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
He named his kid dot? Well i guess there are other things to complain about this awful man, but dot is a really bad name. Avenged Evanfold 22:30, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
With the talk page growing so large, I've archived discussions that did not originate this year (or have active conversations which were still ongoing). I also refactored the content after moving it to remove edits that did not seek to improve the article (i.e. "Phelps is going to hell! Pray for him!") for the sake of readability. Please feel free to restore any deleted content on the archive page if you feel that the deletion was not appopriate. Tijuana Brass 16:35, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
The description of Phelps' WBC as "a religious hate group" was deleted by a known vandal here, and was not replaced when the user's other vandalism was reverted. Unless there is a ban on the phrase "religious hate group" in Wikipedia, I can't think of any group that is more deserving of this description. I'm restoring that descriptive phrase, but will bow to the general consensus if it is thought it is POV. JimmB 22:13, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
This page has already undergone extensive review. To make changes that drastically change the content and message of this article without consulting those who have already worked hard enough to bring it to feature article status through discussion on the talk page is unreasonable. I reverted the changes, and before anyone reverts, there should be thorough discussion here. Furthermore, the changes made were not constructive. They actually obfuscated the facts. These were mostly done (it seems) by anonymous users, so hopefully this won't be a trend. -- Chuchunezumi 19:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
--I do think the article is going a bit downhill and needs to be cleaned up a bit. For example, all the small sections outside of his biography on reaction to Phelps, what's being down about funeral protests and who he has targeted should either be combined and condensed, moved to one of the various WBC pages or both. Though they should be mentioned, they clutter up an already very long (but otherwise great) article.
Change religous hate group. It is biased. This is wikipedia not some chatrooom.
I just want to say thank you to Ohnoitsjamie for changing hate group. You may not have agree with my edits but you found a solution anyway.
Mrld 00:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
In the section on early career/marriage it says:
I had trouble opening the link. Anyway, does "choked" mean he couldn't answer the question? If so wouldn't it be better to change the wording? Also does "attacking" mean verbally? If so could that be added? And what is a "near riot"? Steve Dufour 06:17, 12 August 2006 (UTC) p.s. I'm guessing that the missionary was a Mormon but that is not made clear.
I find this kind of an odd thing to put in the article. There is almost something offensive feeling about it, to me, although I can not exactly define why. Does it add any information for the readers? Steve Dufour 06:21, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I find the earliest picture of him quite eerie for some reason... The_Irrelevant_One 16:28, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I read a book recently about covert aggressive personality disorder. It's similar to the narcissistic personality disorder, but much more actively aggressive. Mr. Phelps fits the description well. Type 'covert aggressive' into your google search engine, click on the top link, and you can see a description of what I'm referring to. I'm surprised 'covert aggressive' doesn't have it's own page on here. Anyway, Phelps at least has a severe case of narcissism. Look at the bullets on Wikipedia's description of narcissistic personality disorder. With the amount of time he's spent in court, has a psychologist ever been called in for testimony? If yes, what did they say about Mr. Phelps? I also have to agree with the previous poster that he likely couldn't care less about God. It's all a money-making scam which he's dragged his children into. Narcissists prefer to make their livings through manipulation of others. Just look how he used his own kids to make money selling candy. The guy is a con-artist. By the way, there is literature out there on how to deal with people like this, if to your grave misfortune you ever find yourself entangled with one.
Ralphie01 03:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I searched the net to see if I could find any article regarding Phelps ever being diagnosed with a personality disorder, but couldn't find one. I did find a lot of discussion which included a plethora of speculation about his psychological condition. One that seems worth a look at is antisocial personality disorder, which is described on Wikipedia. Unfortunately I could find no evidence that he ever recieved professional evaluation.
Ralphie01 20:38, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Though the reference to my column has been deleted, I'd like it noted that it was my 2004 column which suggested that Phelps and family are actually trying to make Christians look like fools. I would like it known that I am a LIBERTARIAN writer, not a conservative, and certainly not "extreme right." Please don't mislabel me again -- Keith Wood, "The Critic-at-Arms"
2nd para of the intro began as something like this: Phelps came to nationanal attention because of his anti-gay stance at funerals of American servicemen. Simply not true. I don't even live in the presumed country, but I had heard of Phelps long before that. Phelps came to national media attention with Shephard; other devolpments, obviously, came after. But don't play down his beginnings, just because where he got to hurts you more. I can't work how to send a direction to gay-bashing in the article. Tried awful hard, but can't get there. If you can help nicely, I'd be delighted to know. MacMurrough 00:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I have removed almost the entire text of this article, as it is badly violating Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. As explained in detail by various people in this talk page above, a large portion of this article is written based on Addicted to Hate, which is an unpublished manuscript and which is a totally unreliable source. There are dozens of references to Addicted to Hate, and rather than try to figure out which of the text does and doesn't come from it, I've simply removed almost the whole thing. Any text which meets WP:V can be put back. -- Xyzzyplugh 15:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
And, to further explain, here's a quote from WP:BLP: "Unsourced or poorly sourced negative material about living persons should be removed immediately from both the article and the talk page". The Addicted to Hate references in this article accuse Fred Phelps of various crimes, such as beating his wife, his children, other family members, shooting a dog while drunk and high on drugs, etc. This material all needs to go, the article needs a complete rewrite based on reliable sources. -- Xyzzyplugh 15:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
In response to a reversion, I have gone back and instead simply removed all the content which appeared to be based on Addicted to Hate, as well as a bunch of unsourced content. There still remains a lot of unsourced content in this article, but I particularly focused on taking out the critical or controversial unsourced content. And, I consider that it would have been better to have removed the entire article and started from scratch. My hacking out portions of text from all throughout the article surely must have left it in sad shape.-- Xyzzyplugh 23:01, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Going through this hideously butchered version of the former FA, I noticed something: There were once sites for Phelps' exchanges with Fidel Castro. I put them there personally, after a period of individuals asking that it be cited, along with a comment on the edit history that I was perturbed that it was left "unsourced" when I was able to find a credible reference in a matter of seconds with a simple Google search. Now the reference is gone, a cite is once more being asked for, and it serves to help undermine the credibility of the article. This is not the only section in which I see this occurring. Intentional or not, someone is seriously undermining the credibility of this article by removing legitimate citations. 209.169.114.213 04:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I've given up on this article. It's become an unwieldy mess plus your concerns. It looks like someone has deleted everything he did with his kids, too.
Is there any reliable source for this? Or are people just assuming he's anti-semitic just because he's anti-USA and anti-gay? Jews and semitism don't seem to be mentioned anywhere in this article. I don't know a thing about him, so please correct me if I'm wrong. 67.160.226.96 07:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
The WBC article has sufficient information on Phelps' anti-semitism (which includes his calling the Holocaust a "miniscule" event and claiming that all Jews are insane). It used to be linked here, but the edit-mongers hacked that out in their ludicrous attempt to "NPOV" the article. 209.169.114.213 21:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
These two lines, which begin two separate paragraphs within the lead-in, sound very similar:
Rev. Phelps gained national attention for interrupting the trial-process and funeral of Matthew Shepard, a young gay man who was beaten and then murdered in Laramie, Wyoming, in 1998
Phelps rose to national prominence in 1998 when he and congregants from Westboro picketed the funeral of gay murder victim Matthew Shepard...
I believe that the latter should probably be removed, along with the rest of that short paragraph, as it basically just restates, with the same degree of clarity, the same thing that the earlier one said. Thoughts?
I think it is important to remark in the opening paragraph (to international readers who might not be aware of the intricacies of christian denominationalism) that WBC is a christian church. Therefore I returned an earlier edit (by me, I admit) which stated this plainly. (I agree WBC might not act in what people would consider a christian manner, but nevertheless it seems to conform to the necessary requirements of being a christian church.) I removed the helpful parenthesis to "fag" which said "(gay people)" -- in my country "fag" is an Americanism, but I believe the meaning is well understood in the English-speaking world. If people don't know what the word "fag" means, then the link is there to inform them. I say this because it is not our business to make knowledge polite. (I might be wrong about this, and I'll be open to correction.) I reverted the formula "insufficiently homophobic" to "insufficiently anti-homosexual" because in this context homophobia might be thought pov. MacMurrough 23:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
For the first time I had a quick glance through this article and noticed in the Political section of this article, that Fred Phelps Jr. and Phelps Sr. appear to have been conflated into a single person. I have removed a paragraph about Jr's support for Al Gore from the article- it would be appropriate to have in Jr's article, but not Senior's. Senior appears to have not had strong feelings regarding Gore until Gore spoke out on gay rights, which is detailed later in the political section. -- Kuzaar- T- C- 15:29, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Out of curiosity, I just poked back through the edit history to see how the article has evolved. The July 28 version has large amounts of sourced material that have since been deleted. Particularly on his "pre-picketing years". I notice, for example, that it covers his university education. That's material that I independently added today; apparently there was no need for me to waste 15 minutes on that because it previously existed.
I am new to this page. Is there a reason for all this deletion? Or was it unnoticed vandalism? Derex 07:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
There is a Wikipedian that keeps adding the claim that Fred Phelps is still a lawyer on the Federal level. However, there has never been any citation given for this claim. Phelps started all of the moronic demonstrations after he was disbarred for the last time. He is NOT an attorney in any jurisdiction. If the claim that he is an attorney on the Federal comes back in the article, then it needs to come in with a citation to back up the claim. If Phelps could sue in Federal court then he would and he would not use his daughter to represent him. That is a fact. Please provide evidence that Phelps is an attorney on the Federal level. The edit can be reviewed here: [2]-- Getaway 22:16, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
The bio mentions that Phelps received a 2 year degree at John Muir College in 1951 and then links to the college. On the college's page it places the school's founding at 1967. He couldn't have received a degree from a college that didn't exist till 16 years later. I'm removing the line until it is corrected. Hopefully this is the right protocol.
Who put it there and why? Putting a tag on an article without some discussion is not helpful. Is it supposedly tipping towards Phelps or away from him? How can it be fixed? The same principles that apply here towards adding a tag should also be a useful guideline for other such tags. Derex 23:41, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
They were a planning a protest at the Amish girl's funerals. Normally, I'm not in favor of angry mob justice, but I'd make an exception here. [4] Derex 03:25, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
The Amish children from Pennsylvania are even now in hell. Stop spreading the lie that they were innocent. They were just as degenerate and deserving of hell as the pervert who killed them. You get what you deserve, America! You raised these murderous beasts and perverted their minds, and now you act surprised? As long as you people try to stop us, you will be punished, just as Pharaoh was punished when he would not let God's people go (Ex. 12:30). Gov. Ed Rendell brought this down on you, get mad at him, not us!
-- Bentendo24 08:32, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, if those Amish girls are doomed to eternity in Heck there likely isn't much hope for me. 68.13.191.153 13:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
[5] Is that site really a front for the WBC? DanTD 16:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Even if Phelps is right about God hating homosexuals... I'm sure Phels will spend an eternity there as well for being an intolerant prick. He will probably understand sodomy extremely well after a couple millenia in his own private lake of fire.
May I just, say, since this is the discussion section, that this guy is missing something important that people are supposed to have. I mean, I'm not even gay and this guy makes me want to cry. I would here like to publicly offer to appear in court as a character witness for anyone who causes this man significant discomfort and/or a lapse in his faith, which is really what he needs. I mean, there's nothing more dangerous than someone who thinks themselves to be totally righteous. Explody 07:07, 24 March 2007 (UTC)Explody
Oh I hear you..I'm at a total loss on what to say about Fred Phelps. I can't believe he's a preacher. This is why so many people don't believe in God now. As christians it is not our job to judge people who are gay. God will deal with them. Its the preachers job to spread the word of God not spread the word of Fred Phelps. God hates sin. God does not hate gays. This really bothers me big time. I didn't realize how bad this is. For the Southern Baptists I would call this a hugh problem. But I can't worry about it or I'll get a headache. So I will leave it to God himself.
Carbuncle72
Okay, lets get one thing straight here. Phelps is a sadistic madmad who is only giving a one sided crap story. GOD DOES NOT HATE HOMOSEXUALS. It is said in the bible that "God loves all men equally". Phelps takes the bible completely out of context, his ideas a LOONY! As Christians, we have to band together and live how the bible says- I do not recall the bible saying anything about hating homosexuals, in fact, the closest God says to hating anything is "Hate the sin, Love the Sinner". Okay, so now that is out in the open, I just want to say one more thing. God DOES love you the way you are, blemishes and all, go down to your local church (that doesnt teach that people are evil!) and find out for yourself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dinobert06 ( talk • contribs) 03:55, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
The cites used to source the Al Gore information are not unbiased- two are conservative news sites, one is a republican orginization. Is there any sort of mainstream verification of their dubious assertions? JBKramer 18:30, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Let's keep the tone moderated, please. JBKramer, the Mother Jones article ought to cited. I have previously vetted the section in great detail, removing quite a few inaccuracies or interpretations. I personally am satisfied that Phelps supported Gore. What I'm not satisfied about is the relevance of that. To me, it seems to violate undue weight, as his support for Gore doesn't seem like a terribly significant part of his notability. It's fairly clear that the section is intended to tarnish Gore, at least if you had seen the original that would be clear. As it stands, I think it's accurate but has little notability besides an attempt to smear by a weak and one-sided association. Derex 20:47, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
FWIW - I agree with Getaway that the tag about accuracy should be removed. It is pretty clear that this section is accurate. What JBKramer is questioning, legitimately, is the significance. But that is not a reason to keep putting back the "accuracy" tag.
Who put that he was born in Omaha? Where did that come from?
And how does one get banned from an entire state?
In his most recent edit summary, Getaway alleges there are pictures of Jr. at the 1988 DNC on a website. I am unable to find such. While the analysis of pictures is a violation of WP:OR, I don't believe Getaway is being dishonest in his edit summaries. Could someone show me the picture, please? JBKramer 21:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
The further reading section contains some questionable statements. It says, "Bell sued the paper for monetary compensation for his work on it and in the process, the book was submitted as evidence and therefor became public domain, allowing it to be published on the internet". This doesn't sound true to me, I don't believe that submitting documents in a court case makes them public domain. -- Xyzzyplugh 14:16, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
the phrase "old school Baptist" probably isn't the most encyclopedic way of expressing that idea. I don't want to fix it because I don't know what would be appropriate, but I don't think that's it. Mike.lifeguard 00:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that this quote is no longer in the article. Was it removed due to a lack of s source? -- David Bixenspan 18:26, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Look, I think Phelps is as loony as the next guy (thinks), but this section is pure unadulterated, uncited editorialism. When the only citation that editor can find is one that refutes his own point, it is time to remove the section.
I agree. This material is unsourced and is total speculation which does not fit in with the rest of the article, which is well documented. It should be taken out. Adlaistevenson 22:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Okay, is Phelps really a "flaming homosexual", as the article asserts? Factually speaking, what qualities must a homosexual possess to be considered a "flaming" one?
That and a lot of other "facts" in this article really do violate the BLP rules, unless they have sources. I don't see the sources. I don't see links to the sources.
Somebody's really got to put a lock on this page until every single thing can be sourced.
Phelps' voting registration in Kansas is Democratic. [citation needed]
According to this site, Phelps is registered as a Democrat. Unfortunately. -- RobbieFal 03:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
This information cannot be verified via that link.
I do sort of wonder. He is brilliant if he is. And he apparently is getting support from the ACLU, so I do sort of wonder. Not much different than Landover Baptist church. -- Filll 18:47, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
It is not a very good citation. It was on a Fox News Broadcast that I watched on Youtube. But it is interesting to ponder alright. If it is true, it is actually brilliant. It really paints fundamentalists in an awful light....-- Filll 19:05, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 7 |
Page stated that Phelps' recent activities were "in collusion with" the Westboro congregation. "in collusion with" seems inflammatory/POV, so I changed.
I noticed that the caption under Phelps childhood picture says that his father was a "hooligan" and "sodomist" who regularly engaged with Phelps sr. It also states that today Phelps engages in sodomy with the male members of his family...Guys, I have a pretty good sense of smell towards vandalism, and this is one huge stinker of a plop that I smell. If its not gone after i finish writing this, i am removing it. - 72.161.134.123
All unsourced or poorly sourced negative material about a living person needs to be deleted on sight. I would suggest to involved editors, to review WP:BLP and proceed with cleanup as soon as possible. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:33, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
This is from the top section:
Is anyone trying to take away their right to protest? Steve Dufour 07:52, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
It's an Americo-centric view, actually: in Europe we are working towards a position of being safeguarded from hate-speech. In plain words that no-one may be denigrated in his being by the hate-speech of someone else, publicly. We all may wonder which is the better course, but we may not deny that there are, in liberal democracies, at least two courses which may be followed. MacMurrough 02:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I just went through and did some cleaning up of the external links section according to the guidelines at Wikipedia:External links — it needed some major work. Some of my changes were as follows:
For the editors who read here before adding new links — and thank you for checking the discussion page first — please make sure that they add something new, unique and significant that is not already covered by the other links. There are a TON of pages critiquing Phelps, a TON of interviews, and a TON of parody sites. Is the new link going to add something essential to this encyclopedic article that isn't already here? Could you instead add said content and use your link as a reference? Tijuana Brass ¡Épa! 22:00, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
This topic has suffered a lot of vandelism, regardless of Fred Phelps views or affiliation is it a good idea to lock the topic so that people who are just finding out about Fred Phelps can make there decision for themselves instead of having a vandels message preached at them?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Equlibrium ( talk • contribs) 22:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I have no doubt that Phelps or one of his family members are savvy enough to edit this page. Each time I come here, there are "citations needed" or they have been removed. Someone is playing around here. All of the citations in the article are directly verifiable through the references and external links. Can we please semi-protect this page so people who are partial to Phelps stop adding a 'FACT' tag to every sentence that they disagree with? BadMojoDE
Phelps' 'people' are on here, somewhat.(somewhat annon)
Is anybody able to tell me if this guy is serious or not? http://www.angelfire.com/on4/calebhamer
Very true, but look at Landover Baptist.
I looked up that Bible verse. They're confusing Mercury the car with Mercury the Romen god. That alone is sign of a spoof.
Phelps is very much for real. And he is very much a nut job. Landover Baptist is a satirical website. Beatdown 20:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I go away for just a little bit...
1) Phelps has 13 kids, not ten. Mark, Nate, Margie, Fred Jr., Jon, Tim, Abigal, Shirley, Rebecca, Katherine, Dot(Dorothy), Elizabeth, Rachel,
2) Someone claims to live in Westboro, then calls it a cult, and you respect their edits? The fact that the sentence "the majority of whom are not related to Phelps" has been allowed to stay in for more than a day boggles the mind.
3) As much as I would love to believe that Phelps was caught with another dude... I don't. Show me some proof.
4) Although he's hung up on "fag," Phelps does say "homosexual" a lot of the time. He doesn't "refuse" to use any other word.
216.7.248.254 16:54, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
He named his kid dot? Well i guess there are other things to complain about this awful man, but dot is a really bad name. Avenged Evanfold 22:30, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
With the talk page growing so large, I've archived discussions that did not originate this year (or have active conversations which were still ongoing). I also refactored the content after moving it to remove edits that did not seek to improve the article (i.e. "Phelps is going to hell! Pray for him!") for the sake of readability. Please feel free to restore any deleted content on the archive page if you feel that the deletion was not appopriate. Tijuana Brass 16:35, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
The description of Phelps' WBC as "a religious hate group" was deleted by a known vandal here, and was not replaced when the user's other vandalism was reverted. Unless there is a ban on the phrase "religious hate group" in Wikipedia, I can't think of any group that is more deserving of this description. I'm restoring that descriptive phrase, but will bow to the general consensus if it is thought it is POV. JimmB 22:13, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
This page has already undergone extensive review. To make changes that drastically change the content and message of this article without consulting those who have already worked hard enough to bring it to feature article status through discussion on the talk page is unreasonable. I reverted the changes, and before anyone reverts, there should be thorough discussion here. Furthermore, the changes made were not constructive. They actually obfuscated the facts. These were mostly done (it seems) by anonymous users, so hopefully this won't be a trend. -- Chuchunezumi 19:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
--I do think the article is going a bit downhill and needs to be cleaned up a bit. For example, all the small sections outside of his biography on reaction to Phelps, what's being down about funeral protests and who he has targeted should either be combined and condensed, moved to one of the various WBC pages or both. Though they should be mentioned, they clutter up an already very long (but otherwise great) article.
Change religous hate group. It is biased. This is wikipedia not some chatrooom.
I just want to say thank you to Ohnoitsjamie for changing hate group. You may not have agree with my edits but you found a solution anyway.
Mrld 00:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
In the section on early career/marriage it says:
I had trouble opening the link. Anyway, does "choked" mean he couldn't answer the question? If so wouldn't it be better to change the wording? Also does "attacking" mean verbally? If so could that be added? And what is a "near riot"? Steve Dufour 06:17, 12 August 2006 (UTC) p.s. I'm guessing that the missionary was a Mormon but that is not made clear.
I find this kind of an odd thing to put in the article. There is almost something offensive feeling about it, to me, although I can not exactly define why. Does it add any information for the readers? Steve Dufour 06:21, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I find the earliest picture of him quite eerie for some reason... The_Irrelevant_One 16:28, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I read a book recently about covert aggressive personality disorder. It's similar to the narcissistic personality disorder, but much more actively aggressive. Mr. Phelps fits the description well. Type 'covert aggressive' into your google search engine, click on the top link, and you can see a description of what I'm referring to. I'm surprised 'covert aggressive' doesn't have it's own page on here. Anyway, Phelps at least has a severe case of narcissism. Look at the bullets on Wikipedia's description of narcissistic personality disorder. With the amount of time he's spent in court, has a psychologist ever been called in for testimony? If yes, what did they say about Mr. Phelps? I also have to agree with the previous poster that he likely couldn't care less about God. It's all a money-making scam which he's dragged his children into. Narcissists prefer to make their livings through manipulation of others. Just look how he used his own kids to make money selling candy. The guy is a con-artist. By the way, there is literature out there on how to deal with people like this, if to your grave misfortune you ever find yourself entangled with one.
Ralphie01 03:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I searched the net to see if I could find any article regarding Phelps ever being diagnosed with a personality disorder, but couldn't find one. I did find a lot of discussion which included a plethora of speculation about his psychological condition. One that seems worth a look at is antisocial personality disorder, which is described on Wikipedia. Unfortunately I could find no evidence that he ever recieved professional evaluation.
Ralphie01 20:38, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Though the reference to my column has been deleted, I'd like it noted that it was my 2004 column which suggested that Phelps and family are actually trying to make Christians look like fools. I would like it known that I am a LIBERTARIAN writer, not a conservative, and certainly not "extreme right." Please don't mislabel me again -- Keith Wood, "The Critic-at-Arms"
2nd para of the intro began as something like this: Phelps came to nationanal attention because of his anti-gay stance at funerals of American servicemen. Simply not true. I don't even live in the presumed country, but I had heard of Phelps long before that. Phelps came to national media attention with Shephard; other devolpments, obviously, came after. But don't play down his beginnings, just because where he got to hurts you more. I can't work how to send a direction to gay-bashing in the article. Tried awful hard, but can't get there. If you can help nicely, I'd be delighted to know. MacMurrough 00:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I have removed almost the entire text of this article, as it is badly violating Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. As explained in detail by various people in this talk page above, a large portion of this article is written based on Addicted to Hate, which is an unpublished manuscript and which is a totally unreliable source. There are dozens of references to Addicted to Hate, and rather than try to figure out which of the text does and doesn't come from it, I've simply removed almost the whole thing. Any text which meets WP:V can be put back. -- Xyzzyplugh 15:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
And, to further explain, here's a quote from WP:BLP: "Unsourced or poorly sourced negative material about living persons should be removed immediately from both the article and the talk page". The Addicted to Hate references in this article accuse Fred Phelps of various crimes, such as beating his wife, his children, other family members, shooting a dog while drunk and high on drugs, etc. This material all needs to go, the article needs a complete rewrite based on reliable sources. -- Xyzzyplugh 15:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
In response to a reversion, I have gone back and instead simply removed all the content which appeared to be based on Addicted to Hate, as well as a bunch of unsourced content. There still remains a lot of unsourced content in this article, but I particularly focused on taking out the critical or controversial unsourced content. And, I consider that it would have been better to have removed the entire article and started from scratch. My hacking out portions of text from all throughout the article surely must have left it in sad shape.-- Xyzzyplugh 23:01, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Going through this hideously butchered version of the former FA, I noticed something: There were once sites for Phelps' exchanges with Fidel Castro. I put them there personally, after a period of individuals asking that it be cited, along with a comment on the edit history that I was perturbed that it was left "unsourced" when I was able to find a credible reference in a matter of seconds with a simple Google search. Now the reference is gone, a cite is once more being asked for, and it serves to help undermine the credibility of the article. This is not the only section in which I see this occurring. Intentional or not, someone is seriously undermining the credibility of this article by removing legitimate citations. 209.169.114.213 04:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I've given up on this article. It's become an unwieldy mess plus your concerns. It looks like someone has deleted everything he did with his kids, too.
Is there any reliable source for this? Or are people just assuming he's anti-semitic just because he's anti-USA and anti-gay? Jews and semitism don't seem to be mentioned anywhere in this article. I don't know a thing about him, so please correct me if I'm wrong. 67.160.226.96 07:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
The WBC article has sufficient information on Phelps' anti-semitism (which includes his calling the Holocaust a "miniscule" event and claiming that all Jews are insane). It used to be linked here, but the edit-mongers hacked that out in their ludicrous attempt to "NPOV" the article. 209.169.114.213 21:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
These two lines, which begin two separate paragraphs within the lead-in, sound very similar:
Rev. Phelps gained national attention for interrupting the trial-process and funeral of Matthew Shepard, a young gay man who was beaten and then murdered in Laramie, Wyoming, in 1998
Phelps rose to national prominence in 1998 when he and congregants from Westboro picketed the funeral of gay murder victim Matthew Shepard...
I believe that the latter should probably be removed, along with the rest of that short paragraph, as it basically just restates, with the same degree of clarity, the same thing that the earlier one said. Thoughts?
I think it is important to remark in the opening paragraph (to international readers who might not be aware of the intricacies of christian denominationalism) that WBC is a christian church. Therefore I returned an earlier edit (by me, I admit) which stated this plainly. (I agree WBC might not act in what people would consider a christian manner, but nevertheless it seems to conform to the necessary requirements of being a christian church.) I removed the helpful parenthesis to "fag" which said "(gay people)" -- in my country "fag" is an Americanism, but I believe the meaning is well understood in the English-speaking world. If people don't know what the word "fag" means, then the link is there to inform them. I say this because it is not our business to make knowledge polite. (I might be wrong about this, and I'll be open to correction.) I reverted the formula "insufficiently homophobic" to "insufficiently anti-homosexual" because in this context homophobia might be thought pov. MacMurrough 23:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
For the first time I had a quick glance through this article and noticed in the Political section of this article, that Fred Phelps Jr. and Phelps Sr. appear to have been conflated into a single person. I have removed a paragraph about Jr's support for Al Gore from the article- it would be appropriate to have in Jr's article, but not Senior's. Senior appears to have not had strong feelings regarding Gore until Gore spoke out on gay rights, which is detailed later in the political section. -- Kuzaar- T- C- 15:29, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Out of curiosity, I just poked back through the edit history to see how the article has evolved. The July 28 version has large amounts of sourced material that have since been deleted. Particularly on his "pre-picketing years". I notice, for example, that it covers his university education. That's material that I independently added today; apparently there was no need for me to waste 15 minutes on that because it previously existed.
I am new to this page. Is there a reason for all this deletion? Or was it unnoticed vandalism? Derex 07:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
There is a Wikipedian that keeps adding the claim that Fred Phelps is still a lawyer on the Federal level. However, there has never been any citation given for this claim. Phelps started all of the moronic demonstrations after he was disbarred for the last time. He is NOT an attorney in any jurisdiction. If the claim that he is an attorney on the Federal comes back in the article, then it needs to come in with a citation to back up the claim. If Phelps could sue in Federal court then he would and he would not use his daughter to represent him. That is a fact. Please provide evidence that Phelps is an attorney on the Federal level. The edit can be reviewed here: [2]-- Getaway 22:16, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
The bio mentions that Phelps received a 2 year degree at John Muir College in 1951 and then links to the college. On the college's page it places the school's founding at 1967. He couldn't have received a degree from a college that didn't exist till 16 years later. I'm removing the line until it is corrected. Hopefully this is the right protocol.
Who put it there and why? Putting a tag on an article without some discussion is not helpful. Is it supposedly tipping towards Phelps or away from him? How can it be fixed? The same principles that apply here towards adding a tag should also be a useful guideline for other such tags. Derex 23:41, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
They were a planning a protest at the Amish girl's funerals. Normally, I'm not in favor of angry mob justice, but I'd make an exception here. [4] Derex 03:25, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
The Amish children from Pennsylvania are even now in hell. Stop spreading the lie that they were innocent. They were just as degenerate and deserving of hell as the pervert who killed them. You get what you deserve, America! You raised these murderous beasts and perverted their minds, and now you act surprised? As long as you people try to stop us, you will be punished, just as Pharaoh was punished when he would not let God's people go (Ex. 12:30). Gov. Ed Rendell brought this down on you, get mad at him, not us!
-- Bentendo24 08:32, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, if those Amish girls are doomed to eternity in Heck there likely isn't much hope for me. 68.13.191.153 13:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
[5] Is that site really a front for the WBC? DanTD 16:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Even if Phelps is right about God hating homosexuals... I'm sure Phels will spend an eternity there as well for being an intolerant prick. He will probably understand sodomy extremely well after a couple millenia in his own private lake of fire.
May I just, say, since this is the discussion section, that this guy is missing something important that people are supposed to have. I mean, I'm not even gay and this guy makes me want to cry. I would here like to publicly offer to appear in court as a character witness for anyone who causes this man significant discomfort and/or a lapse in his faith, which is really what he needs. I mean, there's nothing more dangerous than someone who thinks themselves to be totally righteous. Explody 07:07, 24 March 2007 (UTC)Explody
Oh I hear you..I'm at a total loss on what to say about Fred Phelps. I can't believe he's a preacher. This is why so many people don't believe in God now. As christians it is not our job to judge people who are gay. God will deal with them. Its the preachers job to spread the word of God not spread the word of Fred Phelps. God hates sin. God does not hate gays. This really bothers me big time. I didn't realize how bad this is. For the Southern Baptists I would call this a hugh problem. But I can't worry about it or I'll get a headache. So I will leave it to God himself.
Carbuncle72
Okay, lets get one thing straight here. Phelps is a sadistic madmad who is only giving a one sided crap story. GOD DOES NOT HATE HOMOSEXUALS. It is said in the bible that "God loves all men equally". Phelps takes the bible completely out of context, his ideas a LOONY! As Christians, we have to band together and live how the bible says- I do not recall the bible saying anything about hating homosexuals, in fact, the closest God says to hating anything is "Hate the sin, Love the Sinner". Okay, so now that is out in the open, I just want to say one more thing. God DOES love you the way you are, blemishes and all, go down to your local church (that doesnt teach that people are evil!) and find out for yourself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dinobert06 ( talk • contribs) 03:55, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
The cites used to source the Al Gore information are not unbiased- two are conservative news sites, one is a republican orginization. Is there any sort of mainstream verification of their dubious assertions? JBKramer 18:30, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Let's keep the tone moderated, please. JBKramer, the Mother Jones article ought to cited. I have previously vetted the section in great detail, removing quite a few inaccuracies or interpretations. I personally am satisfied that Phelps supported Gore. What I'm not satisfied about is the relevance of that. To me, it seems to violate undue weight, as his support for Gore doesn't seem like a terribly significant part of his notability. It's fairly clear that the section is intended to tarnish Gore, at least if you had seen the original that would be clear. As it stands, I think it's accurate but has little notability besides an attempt to smear by a weak and one-sided association. Derex 20:47, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
FWIW - I agree with Getaway that the tag about accuracy should be removed. It is pretty clear that this section is accurate. What JBKramer is questioning, legitimately, is the significance. But that is not a reason to keep putting back the "accuracy" tag.
Who put that he was born in Omaha? Where did that come from?
And how does one get banned from an entire state?
In his most recent edit summary, Getaway alleges there are pictures of Jr. at the 1988 DNC on a website. I am unable to find such. While the analysis of pictures is a violation of WP:OR, I don't believe Getaway is being dishonest in his edit summaries. Could someone show me the picture, please? JBKramer 21:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
The further reading section contains some questionable statements. It says, "Bell sued the paper for monetary compensation for his work on it and in the process, the book was submitted as evidence and therefor became public domain, allowing it to be published on the internet". This doesn't sound true to me, I don't believe that submitting documents in a court case makes them public domain. -- Xyzzyplugh 14:16, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
the phrase "old school Baptist" probably isn't the most encyclopedic way of expressing that idea. I don't want to fix it because I don't know what would be appropriate, but I don't think that's it. Mike.lifeguard 00:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that this quote is no longer in the article. Was it removed due to a lack of s source? -- David Bixenspan 18:26, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Look, I think Phelps is as loony as the next guy (thinks), but this section is pure unadulterated, uncited editorialism. When the only citation that editor can find is one that refutes his own point, it is time to remove the section.
I agree. This material is unsourced and is total speculation which does not fit in with the rest of the article, which is well documented. It should be taken out. Adlaistevenson 22:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Okay, is Phelps really a "flaming homosexual", as the article asserts? Factually speaking, what qualities must a homosexual possess to be considered a "flaming" one?
That and a lot of other "facts" in this article really do violate the BLP rules, unless they have sources. I don't see the sources. I don't see links to the sources.
Somebody's really got to put a lock on this page until every single thing can be sourced.
Phelps' voting registration in Kansas is Democratic. [citation needed]
According to this site, Phelps is registered as a Democrat. Unfortunately. -- RobbieFal 03:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
This information cannot be verified via that link.
I do sort of wonder. He is brilliant if he is. And he apparently is getting support from the ACLU, so I do sort of wonder. Not much different than Landover Baptist church. -- Filll 18:47, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
It is not a very good citation. It was on a Fox News Broadcast that I watched on Youtube. But it is interesting to ponder alright. If it is true, it is actually brilliant. It really paints fundamentalists in an awful light....-- Filll 19:05, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
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