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This article never defines what SA means or SS means - it assumes the reader knows. Skuld-Chan ( talk) 17:24, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
On the Reichsmordweche, the Nazi's killed his secretary and his speech writer. He then goes on to become the ambassodor for the Nazi regime. This man has something serious wrong with his upstairs. If someone killed the people working under me, I would work for their destruction and escape from them. There is something psycologically wrong with all these people that continued to help the regime when it went around killing others of their own kind. This is absolutely ludicrous. This is a sign of the times. This is unbelievable. To act as an ambassodor after these people killed your secretary and your speech writer, Von Papen needs a head examination. That man is not thinking right. It is a mark of inconsistencies. The mark that Socrates saw. The mystery of iniquity. I am beside myself in stupefication. WHEELER 16:17, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
According to the memoires of Wolfgang zu Putliz, a diplomat then working close to what was happening in Berlin, a deal was made by Von Papen involving a large bribe for Hindenburg to change his position on Hitler. It may well be that the murder Von Papens close staff was a cover up. The book of Putliz was never taken serious in the West, he ended up in East Germany, but contains a huge amount of inside information on Nazi pre war activities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.86.90.39 ( talk) 21:03, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
One author who wrote in some detail about von Papen, the late British politician Airey Neave, was distinguished by having encountered this man (and the other principal indicted Nazi war criminals) by virtue of having served on the British Military War Crimes Executive. indeed, Neave was chosen to serve the indictment to von Papen and the other leading Nazis in their cells at Nuremberg. Neave's book, Nuremberg : A Personal Record of the Trial of the Major Nazi War Criminals (Hodder & Stoughton, ISBN 0-340-18128-1) discusses von Papen in the chapter entitled A Tale of Two Gentlemen (pp. 145-159), beginning halfway down page 148. Neave describes von Papen (in a style that leaves no doubt as to how he regarded von Papen) with a range of tersely dismissive comments regarding both von Papen's competence and character. Typical quotes include:
Von Papen wrote a book, entitled simply Memoirs, which was published in 1952 by André Deutsch. in a footnote on page 149, Neave makes the following observation:
The view of both Neave and Wheeler-Bennett seems to be that von Papen inhabited a kind of magic circle within which he was insulated from the consequences of both his incompetence and his character defects. They also describe him as having a fundamentally complacent personality, citing his surprise at the chain of subsequent events following his being declared persona non grata by the American administration. Apparently even after this, and after the public scandal following the publication of the Albert papers outlining his plans for espionage in the United States (the Albert papers were the principal ammunition used by the Americans in their decision), von Papen travelled on a liner accompanied by a swathe of top secret documents relating to his and other German agents' activities, without even taking elementary security precautions, only for his luggage to be searched by the British Secret Service when the liner docked at Falmouth. These included cheque stubs for sums of money paid to assorted saboteurs, and a payment made to an agent called Hoegen, bearing the legend "Dum dum inquiry". As Neave said after describing this (p. 151), "It can be imagined what Allied propagandists were able to do with this information".
Neave encountered von Papen on a number of occasions during the Nuremberg trial, and makes a brief mention, for example, of the difference in perceptions between von Papen and most other observers at Nuremberg on the quality of von Papen's chosen defence counsel. von Papen regarded him highly, while most of the legally trained persons present at the Tribunal (including Neave himself) regarded von Papen's counsel as utterly dreadful. Anyone seeking clues as to why this man behaved as he did under Hitler will discover a rich seam to be mined in Neave's book. Calilasseia 23:55, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Someone at 216.136.121.2 changed the heading Vice Chancellor and Ambassador under Hitler from a second-level heading to a third-level header, thereby placing it under the Chancellorship second level heading. This is incorrect, as von Papen's chancellorship ended in December 1932, a month before Hitler was named as Germany's chancellor. Unless someone objects, I am going to revert the edit; von Papen's work under Hitler was not part of von Papen's chancellorship and therefore does not fit temporally into that section. — JonRoma 17:52, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
In the third paragraph Hitler is described as the Imperial Chancellor of Germany. What empire? Was the title still going 15 years after Germany lost it's pre WWI empire? GrahamBould 07:48, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Von Papen's life and career (or careers) represent the most awesome and unbelievable example of the true survivor in modern times. This man worked for the Kaiser, for the Weimar Republic, for the Nazis, and continued to thrive in the post-war era. This is the stuff of which movies are made. When one reflects on the fact that he was slated for execution on the Night of the Long Knives, but escaped out the back door of his house, then, instead of fleeing the country, goes back to Hitler and extracts an Ambassadorship to Vienna, one has to admire his pluck! Even William Shirer, in his "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" seemed to sense this. He describes the Nazis being brought in to the courtroom as being defeated, ruined men, with the vacant stare of the shattered men they were, except von Papen, still had "the look of the old fox about him." And he was acquitted! Amazing. He may have been foolish, misled, shallow, unreflective, or any other pejorative adjective one may concoct, but his ability to survive and thrive is second to none in recorded history. 70.191.253.104 01:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
How can you admire this nazicollaborator?! 85.227.253.85 ( talk) 15:56, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
The reader will wonder why von Papen was acquitted at Nuremberg (the explanation given is sparse) and why John XXIII restored his Catholic honors afterward. Some mention should be made that von Papen, working with Cardinal Roncalli (the future John XXIII) saved as many as 24,000 Jews during the Holocaust, and that this was attested to by Roncalli before the Nuremberg tribunal. 69.120.202.82 ( talk) 16:18, 10 August 2013 (UTC)captcrisis
Glossing over your obvious bigotry, he was aquitted because on the four counts of the indictment, no guilt could be sufficently proven. At best, he could have been convicted for the count of "conspiracy" as that included bringing the Nazis to power but apparently the four judges were not convinced. Str1977 (talk) 15:17, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
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The large box containing the names, positions, and tenures of members of von Papen's government serves no real purpose. Only two of them are mentioned in the text. I propose to remove it-- it may belong in an article on that government, but is an unnecessary distraction here. Kablammo ( talk) 02:58, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
Clearly it has been recognized given the "article length" hat rightfully placed on this Wiki-monster. Not only does this article need to be trimmed for length (given it is even longer than the Wiki article on Charlemagne—somebody of far greater historical significance), the citation style needs to be changed to harv ref or something far less laborious and protracted than the citation format of spelling out each reference to exhaustive length. Concerning the latter issue (condensing either)--I do not have the time nor the inclination since I demonstrated to the editor responsible for this approach long ago how to utilize harv refs to shorten article citations; apparently such instructions were ignored entirely. It's a bit ridiculous. -- Obenritter ( talk) 22:23, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
The article consistently refers to him as Papen, not von Papen, do sources support that? We don't do it when talking about people like Werner von Braun, Max von Sydow, Lars von Trier. I thought dropping the von or van (usually) only happened to mayor historic figures, like (Paul von) Hindenburg, (Otto von) Bismarck, (Ludwig van) Beethoven, and von Papen doesn't seem to fit that category, but I could be wrong... Prevalence 19:50, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
You've got to be kidding me that Kurt Schleicher's murder by the Nazis during the Night of the Long Knives isn't noted in this article, either in the introductory section or the section on the Night of the Long Knives. 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 21:40, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
Why is Hitler's demand to be chancellor following the July 1932 Reichstag elections not mentioned in this article? 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 21:55, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
Why von Papen is wearing a black armband in June 1932 and July 1934 (as we can see in the article's photo)? 213.22.195.39 ( talk) 00:20, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
I cannot find any citations to back up the claim of him having an affair with an American woman or having an illegitimate son with her, as written in this article. I've added a citation needed tag to the relevant section but it would be nice to know where this claim comes from considering 2 individuals are mentioned by name without citation. parqs ( talk) 20:05, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
I added the term reactionary in the lead, because Franz von Papen sought to re-establish the Hohenzollern monarchy, believed the nobility and rich were superior to the common people, and frequently lied and pushed the envelope with the law in pursuit of power (i.e. violating diplomatic immunity, broke party discipline in the Centre Party, schemed to bring Hitler to power and though he could "contain" Hitler, and then worked as a diplomat for Hitler even after Hitler had killed some of his associates). Papen's actions are emblematic of the negative aspects of Prussianism--primarily militarism and hostility to democracy. JohnAdams1800 ( talk) 00:25, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Franz von Papen is often ignored compared to Hitler and his direct enablers (in the Nazi party), despite the fact it was Hitler's alliance with influential right-wing Germans (i.e. Papen, Alfred Hugenberg, etc.) that was necessary to appoint Hitler chancellor. I'm going to analyze Franz von Papen directly from the book: 1. Satan in Top Hat: The Biography of Franz von Papen Kindle Edition [1] JohnAdams1800 ( talk) 23:36, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
References
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Franz von Papen article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on October 29, 2021. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article never defines what SA means or SS means - it assumes the reader knows. Skuld-Chan ( talk) 17:24, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
On the Reichsmordweche, the Nazi's killed his secretary and his speech writer. He then goes on to become the ambassodor for the Nazi regime. This man has something serious wrong with his upstairs. If someone killed the people working under me, I would work for their destruction and escape from them. There is something psycologically wrong with all these people that continued to help the regime when it went around killing others of their own kind. This is absolutely ludicrous. This is a sign of the times. This is unbelievable. To act as an ambassodor after these people killed your secretary and your speech writer, Von Papen needs a head examination. That man is not thinking right. It is a mark of inconsistencies. The mark that Socrates saw. The mystery of iniquity. I am beside myself in stupefication. WHEELER 16:17, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
According to the memoires of Wolfgang zu Putliz, a diplomat then working close to what was happening in Berlin, a deal was made by Von Papen involving a large bribe for Hindenburg to change his position on Hitler. It may well be that the murder Von Papens close staff was a cover up. The book of Putliz was never taken serious in the West, he ended up in East Germany, but contains a huge amount of inside information on Nazi pre war activities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.86.90.39 ( talk) 21:03, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
One author who wrote in some detail about von Papen, the late British politician Airey Neave, was distinguished by having encountered this man (and the other principal indicted Nazi war criminals) by virtue of having served on the British Military War Crimes Executive. indeed, Neave was chosen to serve the indictment to von Papen and the other leading Nazis in their cells at Nuremberg. Neave's book, Nuremberg : A Personal Record of the Trial of the Major Nazi War Criminals (Hodder & Stoughton, ISBN 0-340-18128-1) discusses von Papen in the chapter entitled A Tale of Two Gentlemen (pp. 145-159), beginning halfway down page 148. Neave describes von Papen (in a style that leaves no doubt as to how he regarded von Papen) with a range of tersely dismissive comments regarding both von Papen's competence and character. Typical quotes include:
Von Papen wrote a book, entitled simply Memoirs, which was published in 1952 by André Deutsch. in a footnote on page 149, Neave makes the following observation:
The view of both Neave and Wheeler-Bennett seems to be that von Papen inhabited a kind of magic circle within which he was insulated from the consequences of both his incompetence and his character defects. They also describe him as having a fundamentally complacent personality, citing his surprise at the chain of subsequent events following his being declared persona non grata by the American administration. Apparently even after this, and after the public scandal following the publication of the Albert papers outlining his plans for espionage in the United States (the Albert papers were the principal ammunition used by the Americans in their decision), von Papen travelled on a liner accompanied by a swathe of top secret documents relating to his and other German agents' activities, without even taking elementary security precautions, only for his luggage to be searched by the British Secret Service when the liner docked at Falmouth. These included cheque stubs for sums of money paid to assorted saboteurs, and a payment made to an agent called Hoegen, bearing the legend "Dum dum inquiry". As Neave said after describing this (p. 151), "It can be imagined what Allied propagandists were able to do with this information".
Neave encountered von Papen on a number of occasions during the Nuremberg trial, and makes a brief mention, for example, of the difference in perceptions between von Papen and most other observers at Nuremberg on the quality of von Papen's chosen defence counsel. von Papen regarded him highly, while most of the legally trained persons present at the Tribunal (including Neave himself) regarded von Papen's counsel as utterly dreadful. Anyone seeking clues as to why this man behaved as he did under Hitler will discover a rich seam to be mined in Neave's book. Calilasseia 23:55, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Someone at 216.136.121.2 changed the heading Vice Chancellor and Ambassador under Hitler from a second-level heading to a third-level header, thereby placing it under the Chancellorship second level heading. This is incorrect, as von Papen's chancellorship ended in December 1932, a month before Hitler was named as Germany's chancellor. Unless someone objects, I am going to revert the edit; von Papen's work under Hitler was not part of von Papen's chancellorship and therefore does not fit temporally into that section. — JonRoma 17:52, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
In the third paragraph Hitler is described as the Imperial Chancellor of Germany. What empire? Was the title still going 15 years after Germany lost it's pre WWI empire? GrahamBould 07:48, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Von Papen's life and career (or careers) represent the most awesome and unbelievable example of the true survivor in modern times. This man worked for the Kaiser, for the Weimar Republic, for the Nazis, and continued to thrive in the post-war era. This is the stuff of which movies are made. When one reflects on the fact that he was slated for execution on the Night of the Long Knives, but escaped out the back door of his house, then, instead of fleeing the country, goes back to Hitler and extracts an Ambassadorship to Vienna, one has to admire his pluck! Even William Shirer, in his "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" seemed to sense this. He describes the Nazis being brought in to the courtroom as being defeated, ruined men, with the vacant stare of the shattered men they were, except von Papen, still had "the look of the old fox about him." And he was acquitted! Amazing. He may have been foolish, misled, shallow, unreflective, or any other pejorative adjective one may concoct, but his ability to survive and thrive is second to none in recorded history. 70.191.253.104 01:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
How can you admire this nazicollaborator?! 85.227.253.85 ( talk) 15:56, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
The reader will wonder why von Papen was acquitted at Nuremberg (the explanation given is sparse) and why John XXIII restored his Catholic honors afterward. Some mention should be made that von Papen, working with Cardinal Roncalli (the future John XXIII) saved as many as 24,000 Jews during the Holocaust, and that this was attested to by Roncalli before the Nuremberg tribunal. 69.120.202.82 ( talk) 16:18, 10 August 2013 (UTC)captcrisis
Glossing over your obvious bigotry, he was aquitted because on the four counts of the indictment, no guilt could be sufficently proven. At best, he could have been convicted for the count of "conspiracy" as that included bringing the Nazis to power but apparently the four judges were not convinced. Str1977 (talk) 15:17, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Franz von Papen. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
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have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 15:21, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
The large box containing the names, positions, and tenures of members of von Papen's government serves no real purpose. Only two of them are mentioned in the text. I propose to remove it-- it may belong in an article on that government, but is an unnecessary distraction here. Kablammo ( talk) 02:58, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
Clearly it has been recognized given the "article length" hat rightfully placed on this Wiki-monster. Not only does this article need to be trimmed for length (given it is even longer than the Wiki article on Charlemagne—somebody of far greater historical significance), the citation style needs to be changed to harv ref or something far less laborious and protracted than the citation format of spelling out each reference to exhaustive length. Concerning the latter issue (condensing either)--I do not have the time nor the inclination since I demonstrated to the editor responsible for this approach long ago how to utilize harv refs to shorten article citations; apparently such instructions were ignored entirely. It's a bit ridiculous. -- Obenritter ( talk) 22:23, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
The article consistently refers to him as Papen, not von Papen, do sources support that? We don't do it when talking about people like Werner von Braun, Max von Sydow, Lars von Trier. I thought dropping the von or van (usually) only happened to mayor historic figures, like (Paul von) Hindenburg, (Otto von) Bismarck, (Ludwig van) Beethoven, and von Papen doesn't seem to fit that category, but I could be wrong... Prevalence 19:50, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
You've got to be kidding me that Kurt Schleicher's murder by the Nazis during the Night of the Long Knives isn't noted in this article, either in the introductory section or the section on the Night of the Long Knives. 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 21:40, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
Why is Hitler's demand to be chancellor following the July 1932 Reichstag elections not mentioned in this article? 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 21:55, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
Why von Papen is wearing a black armband in June 1932 and July 1934 (as we can see in the article's photo)? 213.22.195.39 ( talk) 00:20, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
I cannot find any citations to back up the claim of him having an affair with an American woman or having an illegitimate son with her, as written in this article. I've added a citation needed tag to the relevant section but it would be nice to know where this claim comes from considering 2 individuals are mentioned by name without citation. parqs ( talk) 20:05, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
I added the term reactionary in the lead, because Franz von Papen sought to re-establish the Hohenzollern monarchy, believed the nobility and rich were superior to the common people, and frequently lied and pushed the envelope with the law in pursuit of power (i.e. violating diplomatic immunity, broke party discipline in the Centre Party, schemed to bring Hitler to power and though he could "contain" Hitler, and then worked as a diplomat for Hitler even after Hitler had killed some of his associates). Papen's actions are emblematic of the negative aspects of Prussianism--primarily militarism and hostility to democracy. JohnAdams1800 ( talk) 00:25, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Franz von Papen is often ignored compared to Hitler and his direct enablers (in the Nazi party), despite the fact it was Hitler's alliance with influential right-wing Germans (i.e. Papen, Alfred Hugenberg, etc.) that was necessary to appoint Hitler chancellor. I'm going to analyze Franz von Papen directly from the book: 1. Satan in Top Hat: The Biography of Franz von Papen Kindle Edition [1] JohnAdams1800 ( talk) 23:36, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
References