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Reference #2 ( http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibitions/this_month/resources/treblinka.asp) contains inaccurate information, it states:
Women and children were gassed first, while the men were kept in the deportation square, standing naked and waiting until their turn came to enter the "pipe."
Based on many other available sources of information on Treblinka, the opposite is in fact true. Should this reference be considered for removal due to its inaccuracy?
Yarbywoo (
talk) 16:03, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
I referenced John Kekes incorrectly. Any advice on how to do it correctly? Flute2!% ( talk) 15:09, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Didn't know that his membership in the Nazi Party pre-Anschluss was taken for a fact. But perhaps I'm only remembering his denials in Sereny's book and forgetting some more definitive statement... 70.179.101.33 03:38, 24 November 2005 (UTC)Wilhelm
The whole article seems to hinge upon the probably self-serving thoughts of Stangl on Stangl about his life and crimes. Maybe a perspective from his colleagues and victims would be valuable....as in most other biographies... Colin4C 14:40, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
He confessed to standing next to the pits used to bury thousands ( huge pits ) but a wiki article on Krege says that ground penetrating radar was not able to find even small pits - what's up. Do holocaust historians doubt GPR or Stangl's confession ( one or the other is bogus but luckily the GPR could be tried again so historians could get the facts correct.) Would there be far reaching consequences if Stangl was found to be a false confessor. Why only life in prison for killing 900,000? Given the tenor of the time and the other sentences given out, he seems to have been treated differently - was his confession the reason? Bouncing from one wiki article to another creates more questions than answers - but real historians could clear this up quickly - probably in calmer times ( years in the future ) this will be done quitely. Lots of rewrite jobs to be open in wiki - what's the hourly pay?
Why only life in prison for killing 900,000?
He was sentenced to life imprisonement in 1970. The death penalty was abolished in Germany in 1949.-- 84.175.92.222 ( talk) 14:01, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
On why ground penetrating radar was not able to find pits with bodies:
Because in Spring 1943 work was started at Treblinka to obliterate traces of mass graves (continuing the work done in other places where mass murders had taken place). So he could very well have stood next to a mass grave with rotting bodies, which were subsequently obliterated. Testimony on the obliteration (by Heinrich Matthes): an installation was built for burning the corpses. The incineration was carried out by placing railroad rails on blocks of concrete. The corpses were then piled up on these rails. Brush wood was placed under the rails. The wood was drenched with gasoline. Not only the newly obtained corpses were burnt in this way, but also those exhumed from the ditches. The burning of corpses proceeded day and night. When the fire had died down, whole skeletons or single bones remained behind on the grating. Mounds of ash had accumulated underneath it. A different prisoner commando, the "Ashes Gang," had to sweep up the ashes, place the remaining bones on thin metal sheets, pound them with round wooden dowels, and then shake them through a narrow-mesh metal sieve; whatever remained in the sieve was crushed once more. Bones not burnt and which could not easily be split were again thrown into the fire.
Also, as the article in Krege indicates, there is serious doubt about his claims of having done research at Treblinka. 165.189.169.190 ( talk) 14:45, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
^ Are you serious? I dont think ALL the germans in the world together could put even 900,000 bodies through that process in seven years! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zensky ( talk • contribs) 10:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I am serious, as was the individual whose testimony I referenced, SS Oberscharführer Heinrich Matthes, who served at Treblinka. However, they weren't entirely successful: In 1959, Third Reich historian Martin Gilbert visited the camp: "From Treblinka village we proceeded for another mile or two, along the line of an abandoned railway through a forest of tall trees. Finally we reached an enormous clearing, bounded on all sides by dense woodland. Darkness was falling, and with it, the chill of night and a cold dew. I stepped down from the cart on to the sandy soil: a soil that was gray rather than brown. Driven by I know not what impulse, I ran my hand through that soil, again and again. The earth beneath my feet was coarse and sharp: filled with the fragments of human bone." All present in the vicinity, even fifteen years after the fact, discovered literal heaps of evidence pointing to what had occurred there.
Yes, it is indeed mindboggling what the Nazis did. 165.189.169.190 ( talk) 14:49, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I would like to add, that in addition to the lack of sufficient physical evidence at the time (at least from the evidence-collecting methods of 1970) to prove a figure of 900,000, my personal impression - and Stangl stated this in pretty clear terms on several occasions - is that Stangl extremely feared his superiors in the Nazi hierarchy, the ones giving him the orders. He feared a lot of his fellow Nazis, such as Christian Wirth. I doubt that Stangl ever seriously considered disobeying an order from higher-ranking Nazis. I have never read his testimony, I have no idea what his testimony revealed, but perhaps that came across from his testimony. I am in no way trying to explain Stangl's actions, they are inexplicable imo, just offering an idea of what might have weighed in the minds of the people who sentenced Stangl.
And you can say that the death penalty had been abolished in West Germany at the time of the trial. But it really doesn't matter; crimes such as this are unprecedented and can cause a change in law to administer the death penalty to Stangl. Hoops gza ( talk) 04:05, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
This page happens to quote exactly [1]. Is anybody willing to fix it? Assez 22:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I am adding an infobox and a photo Meishern ( talk) 04:15, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Hoops, please stop. The version you are reverting to:
That's a lot of fucking-up in a 60 character difference. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 09:40, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
This sentence has again been added to the lead. Looking at the history of the article, WP:3RR has previously been broken despite a clear consensus expressed on this talk page. One editor's opinion on what's necessary in terms of emphasis may be correct and fully justified, but if it conflicts with consensus it can't stand. There's no ideological battle here. Please, Hoops Gza, give up this campaign, which only harms the sense and readability of the article and so stops Franz Stangl's crimes being recorded in the clearest way possible. Alistair Stevenson ( talk) 00:06, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
Oh, I see what you mean, the problem with a phrase rather than whether he committed these acts. I did not realize that you were referring to the "one of the many" phrase when you meant a blanket statement. It made me a bit curious when I saw you claim it as a blanket statement because I could not figure out how you came to the conclusion. My brain is really quite tired and I did not process the "one of the many" phrase right in front of me. Well, what if that is deleted out of the sentence? Hoops gza ( talk) 04:10, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
(ec)
“ | Franz Stangl (March 26, 1908 – June 28, 1971) was an Austrian SS commandant of the Sobibor and Treblinka extermination camps during the Holocaust. He was arrested in Brazil in 1967, extradited and tried in West Germany for the mass murder of 900,000 people, and in 1970 was found guilty and sentenced to life imprisonment.[1] He died of heart failure half a year later. | ” |
It is not redundant to include both mass murder and genocide. These are two different types of acts, and Stangl (and almost every high-ranking Nazi) incontrovertibly committed both. Yes, in order to perpetrate genocide one has to perpetrate mass murder, but not vice versa. The same thing does not apply conversely. In systematically killing Jews, Stangl committed genocide. It was a deliberate attempt to kill all of them. But in killing other groups of people (with the exceptions of a few groups of people, such as Romani), Stangl's acts were never intended to kill the entire population in the world.
Nazis mass murdered Soviet prisoners of war. They mass murdered Poles. But they did not deliberately attempt to eradicate the entire populations of these peoples, and I don't think we have enough evidence that would strongly support that it was their intent. They did want to Germanize the world, so it is a pretty good logical inference that they would have eventually attempted to remove some of these populations (such as Slavic language-speaking people) from the earth either by killing them or by breeding them out. But Wikipedia is not a forum. We can't draw inferences, only report facts. Their main goal was to remove Jews from the face of the earth. Hoops gza ( talk) 02:35, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
I think there is enough evidence to also say that the Nazis wanted to commit genocide on Communism. This has nothing to do with Stangl. Hoops gza ( talk) 02:38, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
We can't just say predominate figure during the Holocaust. The majority of scholars and historians consider the Holocaust to only include the genocide of the Jews. Stangl also committed genocide on Romani and mass murdered others (most likely). To Stangl, all of these people might have just been numbers, but we can only go by his actions and the end result. Hoops gza ( talk) 02:42, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
I've changed the description of the trial to reflect what the SWC source says - the wording used is the same as in the book 'The German Trauma' by Gitta Sereny so that is likely to be the official charge that he was found guilty of. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 08:58, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
"Around 100,000 Jews are believed to have been killed there while Stangl was the administrator until the furnaces broke down in October, by which time Stangl had left." Other sources suggest that there were never any furnaces at Sobibor - corpses were initially buried and subsequently exhumed and burnt in the open air. In any even there is no citation Hardicanute ( talk) 12:17, 7 May 2011 (UTC)Hardicanute
Under the Treblinka heading, Stangl was said to be "No sadist". This is an astonishing and disconcerting claim about a mass murderer who carried a whip and revelled in his "Work". I removed the phrase. Historygypsy ( talk) 01:49, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
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Here is a passage from David Cesarani's Final Solution: The Fate of the Jews 1933-1949, I hope it can be used to improve the tagged section.
From page 507. There's also a passage detailing the state of the camp under Eberl's regime on page 505. The footnote at the end of the long paragraph reads: Arad, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, 89-92, 119-120; Wiernik, A Year in Treblinka, 18.
If you need anything else from this book, please just ask 51.6.65.195 ( talk) 17:06, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
So that’s how it’s pronounced? Someone should tell the Germans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.191.146.191 ( talk) 16:04, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on June 28, 2022. |
Reference #2 ( http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibitions/this_month/resources/treblinka.asp) contains inaccurate information, it states:
Women and children were gassed first, while the men were kept in the deportation square, standing naked and waiting until their turn came to enter the "pipe."
Based on many other available sources of information on Treblinka, the opposite is in fact true. Should this reference be considered for removal due to its inaccuracy?
Yarbywoo (
talk) 16:03, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
I referenced John Kekes incorrectly. Any advice on how to do it correctly? Flute2!% ( talk) 15:09, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Didn't know that his membership in the Nazi Party pre-Anschluss was taken for a fact. But perhaps I'm only remembering his denials in Sereny's book and forgetting some more definitive statement... 70.179.101.33 03:38, 24 November 2005 (UTC)Wilhelm
The whole article seems to hinge upon the probably self-serving thoughts of Stangl on Stangl about his life and crimes. Maybe a perspective from his colleagues and victims would be valuable....as in most other biographies... Colin4C 14:40, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
He confessed to standing next to the pits used to bury thousands ( huge pits ) but a wiki article on Krege says that ground penetrating radar was not able to find even small pits - what's up. Do holocaust historians doubt GPR or Stangl's confession ( one or the other is bogus but luckily the GPR could be tried again so historians could get the facts correct.) Would there be far reaching consequences if Stangl was found to be a false confessor. Why only life in prison for killing 900,000? Given the tenor of the time and the other sentences given out, he seems to have been treated differently - was his confession the reason? Bouncing from one wiki article to another creates more questions than answers - but real historians could clear this up quickly - probably in calmer times ( years in the future ) this will be done quitely. Lots of rewrite jobs to be open in wiki - what's the hourly pay?
Why only life in prison for killing 900,000?
He was sentenced to life imprisonement in 1970. The death penalty was abolished in Germany in 1949.-- 84.175.92.222 ( talk) 14:01, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
On why ground penetrating radar was not able to find pits with bodies:
Because in Spring 1943 work was started at Treblinka to obliterate traces of mass graves (continuing the work done in other places where mass murders had taken place). So he could very well have stood next to a mass grave with rotting bodies, which were subsequently obliterated. Testimony on the obliteration (by Heinrich Matthes): an installation was built for burning the corpses. The incineration was carried out by placing railroad rails on blocks of concrete. The corpses were then piled up on these rails. Brush wood was placed under the rails. The wood was drenched with gasoline. Not only the newly obtained corpses were burnt in this way, but also those exhumed from the ditches. The burning of corpses proceeded day and night. When the fire had died down, whole skeletons or single bones remained behind on the grating. Mounds of ash had accumulated underneath it. A different prisoner commando, the "Ashes Gang," had to sweep up the ashes, place the remaining bones on thin metal sheets, pound them with round wooden dowels, and then shake them through a narrow-mesh metal sieve; whatever remained in the sieve was crushed once more. Bones not burnt and which could not easily be split were again thrown into the fire.
Also, as the article in Krege indicates, there is serious doubt about his claims of having done research at Treblinka. 165.189.169.190 ( talk) 14:45, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
^ Are you serious? I dont think ALL the germans in the world together could put even 900,000 bodies through that process in seven years! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zensky ( talk • contribs) 10:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I am serious, as was the individual whose testimony I referenced, SS Oberscharführer Heinrich Matthes, who served at Treblinka. However, they weren't entirely successful: In 1959, Third Reich historian Martin Gilbert visited the camp: "From Treblinka village we proceeded for another mile or two, along the line of an abandoned railway through a forest of tall trees. Finally we reached an enormous clearing, bounded on all sides by dense woodland. Darkness was falling, and with it, the chill of night and a cold dew. I stepped down from the cart on to the sandy soil: a soil that was gray rather than brown. Driven by I know not what impulse, I ran my hand through that soil, again and again. The earth beneath my feet was coarse and sharp: filled with the fragments of human bone." All present in the vicinity, even fifteen years after the fact, discovered literal heaps of evidence pointing to what had occurred there.
Yes, it is indeed mindboggling what the Nazis did. 165.189.169.190 ( talk) 14:49, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I would like to add, that in addition to the lack of sufficient physical evidence at the time (at least from the evidence-collecting methods of 1970) to prove a figure of 900,000, my personal impression - and Stangl stated this in pretty clear terms on several occasions - is that Stangl extremely feared his superiors in the Nazi hierarchy, the ones giving him the orders. He feared a lot of his fellow Nazis, such as Christian Wirth. I doubt that Stangl ever seriously considered disobeying an order from higher-ranking Nazis. I have never read his testimony, I have no idea what his testimony revealed, but perhaps that came across from his testimony. I am in no way trying to explain Stangl's actions, they are inexplicable imo, just offering an idea of what might have weighed in the minds of the people who sentenced Stangl.
And you can say that the death penalty had been abolished in West Germany at the time of the trial. But it really doesn't matter; crimes such as this are unprecedented and can cause a change in law to administer the death penalty to Stangl. Hoops gza ( talk) 04:05, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
This page happens to quote exactly [1]. Is anybody willing to fix it? Assez 22:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I am adding an infobox and a photo Meishern ( talk) 04:15, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Hoops, please stop. The version you are reverting to:
That's a lot of fucking-up in a 60 character difference. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 09:40, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
This sentence has again been added to the lead. Looking at the history of the article, WP:3RR has previously been broken despite a clear consensus expressed on this talk page. One editor's opinion on what's necessary in terms of emphasis may be correct and fully justified, but if it conflicts with consensus it can't stand. There's no ideological battle here. Please, Hoops Gza, give up this campaign, which only harms the sense and readability of the article and so stops Franz Stangl's crimes being recorded in the clearest way possible. Alistair Stevenson ( talk) 00:06, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
Oh, I see what you mean, the problem with a phrase rather than whether he committed these acts. I did not realize that you were referring to the "one of the many" phrase when you meant a blanket statement. It made me a bit curious when I saw you claim it as a blanket statement because I could not figure out how you came to the conclusion. My brain is really quite tired and I did not process the "one of the many" phrase right in front of me. Well, what if that is deleted out of the sentence? Hoops gza ( talk) 04:10, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
(ec)
“ | Franz Stangl (March 26, 1908 – June 28, 1971) was an Austrian SS commandant of the Sobibor and Treblinka extermination camps during the Holocaust. He was arrested in Brazil in 1967, extradited and tried in West Germany for the mass murder of 900,000 people, and in 1970 was found guilty and sentenced to life imprisonment.[1] He died of heart failure half a year later. | ” |
It is not redundant to include both mass murder and genocide. These are two different types of acts, and Stangl (and almost every high-ranking Nazi) incontrovertibly committed both. Yes, in order to perpetrate genocide one has to perpetrate mass murder, but not vice versa. The same thing does not apply conversely. In systematically killing Jews, Stangl committed genocide. It was a deliberate attempt to kill all of them. But in killing other groups of people (with the exceptions of a few groups of people, such as Romani), Stangl's acts were never intended to kill the entire population in the world.
Nazis mass murdered Soviet prisoners of war. They mass murdered Poles. But they did not deliberately attempt to eradicate the entire populations of these peoples, and I don't think we have enough evidence that would strongly support that it was their intent. They did want to Germanize the world, so it is a pretty good logical inference that they would have eventually attempted to remove some of these populations (such as Slavic language-speaking people) from the earth either by killing them or by breeding them out. But Wikipedia is not a forum. We can't draw inferences, only report facts. Their main goal was to remove Jews from the face of the earth. Hoops gza ( talk) 02:35, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
I think there is enough evidence to also say that the Nazis wanted to commit genocide on Communism. This has nothing to do with Stangl. Hoops gza ( talk) 02:38, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
We can't just say predominate figure during the Holocaust. The majority of scholars and historians consider the Holocaust to only include the genocide of the Jews. Stangl also committed genocide on Romani and mass murdered others (most likely). To Stangl, all of these people might have just been numbers, but we can only go by his actions and the end result. Hoops gza ( talk) 02:42, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
I've changed the description of the trial to reflect what the SWC source says - the wording used is the same as in the book 'The German Trauma' by Gitta Sereny so that is likely to be the official charge that he was found guilty of. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 08:58, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
"Around 100,000 Jews are believed to have been killed there while Stangl was the administrator until the furnaces broke down in October, by which time Stangl had left." Other sources suggest that there were never any furnaces at Sobibor - corpses were initially buried and subsequently exhumed and burnt in the open air. In any even there is no citation Hardicanute ( talk) 12:17, 7 May 2011 (UTC)Hardicanute
Under the Treblinka heading, Stangl was said to be "No sadist". This is an astonishing and disconcerting claim about a mass murderer who carried a whip and revelled in his "Work". I removed the phrase. Historygypsy ( talk) 01:49, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
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Here is a passage from David Cesarani's Final Solution: The Fate of the Jews 1933-1949, I hope it can be used to improve the tagged section.
From page 507. There's also a passage detailing the state of the camp under Eberl's regime on page 505. The footnote at the end of the long paragraph reads: Arad, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, 89-92, 119-120; Wiernik, A Year in Treblinka, 18.
If you need anything else from this book, please just ask 51.6.65.195 ( talk) 17:06, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
So that’s how it’s pronounced? Someone should tell the Germans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.191.146.191 ( talk) 16:04, 7 April 2019 (UTC)