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... "if not the greatest" ...
Regarding Iggy402's removal, on 06:06, 14 November 2006, of "if not the greatest," I see the point about the danger of inserting personal point of view. However, to say that Liszt is merely "one of the greatest pianists in history," instead of "one of the greatest - if not the greatest - pianists in history," still seems a significant understatement, given extraordinary and credible testimonies of his contemporaries and expert opinions which have followed. The preponderance of these suggest a distinct possibility that Liszt indeed was the greatest. For this reason, my insertion on 10:56, 2 November 2006 of the phrase "if not the greatest" seemed reasonable - especially since I still was stopping well short of asserting that he in fact WAS the greatest.
For this same reason, I applaud K. Lastochka's 23:59, 14 November 2006 contribution, which gives Liszt credit where it is due, more credit than for being merely "one of the greatest" pianists in history.
Still I believe it is reasonable to point out that he is generally considered to be one of the greatest - if not the greatest - pianists in history. Again, to say that he merely was "one of the greatest" pianists in history seems an understatement. Bstct 09:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Glad you appreciate my contributions. :) I should probably be watched carefully lest I add some POV of my own though--I'm a big Liszt fan lately. :) K. Lastochka 15:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
"the Comtess d'Agoult". Comtess skould be either Comtesse or Countess.
S.
The reference to "Hungarian Rhapsody" was added by an anonymous user, who apparently wasn't aware that Liszt wrote 19 of them. Which one do you reckon he/she was thinking of? #2, perhaps? -- Ortonmc 03:08, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I am very confused by the numbering of Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody! I have a Naxos CD, 8.550327, which contains a Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2 in C#m, arranged for orchestra. In the program notes it is read, "Hungarian Rhapsody, No. 2 (No. 12) the most popular of Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsodies, No. 2 in the orchestral arrangements the composer made with the aid of Franz Doppler, and No. 12 in the set of 19 for piano, was composed in 1853 and dedicated to the young virtuoso violinist Joseph Joachim, who that year had brought Brahms to visit him. ..."
But when I listen to a DVD Kissin (The Gift of Music), he plays Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody No. 12 in C#m, it is totally a different piece! And I've tried to search for Hungarian Rhapsody in google, it is strange that many websites give a different numbering, some of them have the No. 2 in GbM, some of them C#m, some of them Dm! And the most problematic is Liszt has written two Hungarian Rhapsody in C#m, and some websites have listed No. 2 C#m and No. 12 C#m. It is really confusing. Could anyone help to give an answer? 203.186.238.243 20:07, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Sometimes Ferenc? What is the original full Hungarian name? Rafał Pocztarski 11:54, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I think the biographical information here would be more readable if organized similarly to how Haydn and Chopin are seperated into sub sections and headers. Thoughts? -- Sketchee 17:19, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Dear wikifriends, in book Franz Liszt, compositeur slovaque (Paperback), Miroslav Benko, L'Age d'Homme Editions (2003), ISBN: 2825117897 is written, that F. Liszt has slovak nationality.
This was removed as it probably shouldn't be here. I thought I'd just save it in case anyone wants something to develop a page on Nationalism in music or even a section on the nationalism page. -- Sketchee 01:16, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)
To my knowledge, Liszt is commonly referred to as a Hungarian composer, which is an image he helped to promulgate, but I believe that he actually does not have any Hungarian ancestry. He was Austrian. --11/21/05
He was not Austrian, but an ethnic German Hungarian. As he said: "Je suis Hongrois".
According to my knowledge his father Adam Liszt was Slovak since both his parents (Juraj (eng. Georg) List and Barbara Šlesáková) were Slovaks (both his parents and Adam Liszt were speaking slovak as a first language). It implies that he (Franz Liszt) has Slovak German origin and not Hungarian German. He also learned hungarian as a second language and never used it extensively. So to call him hungarian composer is possible only in the context of 19th century since he was born in Austria-Hungary Empire which consisted of Austria, Hungary, Bohemia, Moravia, Slovakia, and parts of Poland, Romania, Slovenia, Croatia, and Italy. But to oversimplify and to relate him exclusively to present Hungary now in 21st century is really impropriate. My source is the book "Franz Liszt, compositeur slovaque", author Miroslav Demko, publisher Lausanne : Editions L'âge d'homme, 2003. This book is available in the library of the University of Oxford. I want to ask people really interested in this article to check upon this information. Iambilko 04:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Liszt was German Hungarian. His Slovak origin is a nationalistic fabrication.
First of all we need to understand what we mean with an ethnic hungarian. Hungarians are generally considered to be the most mixed ethnicity in Europe. Actually, most hungarians have also slav and german ancestry, more or less, as well as other ethnicity. Liszt had to. The name Liszt and that family may have had, with a high probability, same roots as a transylvanian-hungarian family named Liszty, Liszthy, Liszthiusz etc. That family was hungarian-speaking already in the 1500-century.A part of this family moved to the very same parts of Hungary where the composer had his relatives. Most of of the Liszt family were lutherans as the lutheran Liszts that moved from Transsylvania to the northern parts of what now is Burgenland. Probably Liszt is a descendant of this family. If this is true he might have some remote ancestry with the Hunyady family! According to Liszts statements and according to photos of him his mongoloid features are sometimes recognizable. This could mean that he had magyar roots. The mongoloid element in central europe is associated with the magyar tribes or some proto-magyar ones as the avars or the more distant huns. From an anthropological point of wiev Liszt had magyar ancestry with the uttermost probability. What is most important is however his own feeling in the matter. In this respect he was without doubt hungarian. He was even a nationalistic hungarian. And among nationalistic hungarians he was among the most excessively so. It doesn´t matter at all that he besides magyar also had german, austrian and different slav forefathers. Beside this he seemes to have had roumanian as well. It is quite sure that he had magyar, german and slav roots, as most hungarians do have. The name Liszt is according to bartok slavic. That doesn´t mean that it is slovakian. Some of Liszts ancestors on his fathers side wore the name Slezak. The name Schlezak is a germanized western-slav name. Probably it is czech or moravian and not originaly slovakian. The Slezaks probably however mixed with slovakians and probably magyars as well. On the other hand there are several milion people of mixed slovakian hungarian ancestry. Most of these consider themselves hungarian. Petöfi is one good example. Petöfi had however some magyar ancestry on his mothers side, but she was predominantely of slovak origin.
25 Aug 2006 Laszlo IG Schüszler
THERE are three options: "austrian-hungarian composer", "german-hungarian composer" or "hungarian composer of german descent". Hungarian alone is not correct, Liszt has (austro-)german parents and was born (and lived) in the german part of hungary (called german-west-hungary), and hungary wasn´t a free independent country that time, it was just a part of the austrian "reich". The hungarians where not free in 1811.
I say: He is an austrian-hungarian composer, german-slovacian descent
How could Franz Liszt have been an enthusiastic Hungarian nationalist if he couldn't even master the language fluently? Did he not attempt writing a letter in Hungarian once, but change to French quickly with apologies that he was unable to complete it in Hungarian. I would have assumed that being a Nationalist of a country would include making the effort of learning the language sufficiently...
On another matter; Franz Liszt appears to be on the 'List of Austrians'; don't think that's entirely correct
What makes you so sure he didn't try to learn? :) As a patriotic Hungarian whose mother tongue is not Magyar, I can attest to the fact that it's damn hard to learn!! :) If he was able to write even half a letter, well, then that's pretty good. :) K. Lastochka 02:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
The section about Liszt's meeting with Beethoven takes up way too much place IMO. It is interesting though, so I suggest we move it to a separate article (e.g. Liszt and Beethoven) and reduce it to a single sentence or so within the main article, with a link to the new article. — Pladask 12:57, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
Audio sample- in the media sample, what's Au bord d'une? (Resolves to download that audio sample soon, but if it turns out to be Au bord d'une source, it really should be labeled as such)
Reading- a further reading section with e.g. biography references may be good (I'd nominate Walker's, unsurprisingly, for instance.) Schissel : bowl listen 03:02, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)
The current link at the end of Noted Works is 404. I know a couple good sites that list Searle numbers (liszt.dk, lisztworks.com), but neither lists Raabe numbers.
Many articles about musicans or composers etc on wikipedia start with "is considered to be the greatest/best..." or something like that, like in this article "Possibly the greatest virtuoso of all time". Adding things like that is just unnecessary and stupid, weather he/she/it is good or not is highly subjective. It's just as stupid as "This is Franz Lizst(for example), some people like him, some don'ta". As if peoples oppinions would change if they found out he is appreciated by some. Thats one the problem with society, people care to much what other people thing.
Well to get on topic again: Less of that stuff.
There is third concerto in Eb major too.
Franz Liszt is a musical hero to me. However, there should be some mention of his anti-semitic views, even if its justs a blurb.
I'm not sure, I guess I really don't know. I sure would like to find out. Thank you for posting, as this is the first time I've heard about Alan Walker. I would really like to find any analysis of evidence, letters, correspondance, etc. that could shed some light either way.
After a bit of digging, it appears that Alan is the most comprehensive source on Liszt to date. Also, I would add:
Franz Liszt: A Guide to Research by Michael Saffle
Contained within Saffle's book is a reference to the following book:
Liszt: A Self-portrait in His Own Words, ed. David Whitwell. Northridge, CA: Winds, 1986. vii, 242 pp. ML410.L7A164 1986.
"A summary of Liszt's life, character, and activities drawn from the composer's letters, essays, and other documents. Includes observations made by Liszt on the Jews, the peoples of various nations, and a variety of individuals--among them, Bach, Ludwig II of Bavaris, Tolstoy, and Wagner."(Saffle)
Perhaps 'ol Liszt got a bad rap? I think you may be correct. Gstejska 08:45, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Here's one more source:
Riehn, Rainer. "Wilder die Verunglimpfung des Andenkens Verstorbener. Liszt soll Antisemit gewesen sein...." pp. 100-14
Keep in mind that people were generally much more anti-semitic and racist in the 19th century than they are today. It is easy for us to criticize people from 200 years ago, as if we would have been different had we lived back then. Chances are we would not, because it was simply accepted by white Christians that nonwhites and jews were racially inferior. That said, I've never seen any evidence that Liszt was anti-semitic. I can't give you a footnote, but I recall reading a bit of a letter from Liszt to (I believe) the Princess Sayn-Wittgenstein encouraging her to meet & hear a new student of his, "though he is of the tribe of Jacob." That student was Carl Tausig, a Jew and one of Liszt's star pupils, to whom Liszt was especially devoted, and whose death at age 29 was bitterly mourned by Liszt, as Tausig was said to remind Liszt of his own son Daniel who had similarly died young some 12 years before.
\\David Curtin, Lock Haven USA 9/1/06
Gstejska 22:40, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I have never found any evidence that F.L. was antisemitic. In fact he often seems to be significantly less so than some of his contemporaries (*cough* Wagner *cough*). I have read in many books that the nasty bits in his books were put in by Princess Caroline--sorry I can't cite any sources right now... :( just my 2 cents. K. Lastochka 02:35, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
84.61.63.109 15:35, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Franz Liszt is famous for his invention of the tone poem, or symphonic poem. The Wiki 'symphonic poem' article mentions this fact, and links to Liszt, but there is no mention in the actual Liszt article about his invention. It might be prudent to include this, as well as a link in a paragraphed section other than a listing of his works, which could be quickly skimmed over & missed.
What was it? His mother was german. His father was magyarised german. He DIDN`T EVEN SPOKE HUNGARIAN!!!!!!!!!!! Can anyone show me just one prove that Frantz Liszt spoke hungarian? A letter, a journal, anything! NO YOU CAN`T!!! Because he didn`t spoke hungarian. Even if he didn`t, is there any prove that he ever called, or considered himself "magyar"? Greier 18:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
ACtually Franz Liszt did consider himself Hungarian, and true he didn't know the language very well..he was half Austrian. Adam Liszt was Hungarian, born in Hungary, worked with a Hungarian family, has a Hungarian surname and Hungarian diacratics on name. Where is the evidence that he was 100% German? Leave the sentence as it was before 65.185.213.33 changed it without reason
So, bottom line is he was an assimilated Hungarian, whose family were assimilated Hungarians, and he WAS in fact Hungarian even though he came from Germanic stock. Kind of like Lajos Kossuth.....nationality and ethnicity get pretty mushy in Central Europe, the way I see it is if somebody feels Hungarian, calls himself Hungarian and loves Hungary as his homeland, then he's Hungarian. :) K. Lastochka 02:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Anonymous Scholar! How I've missed you! :)
Sir, you are making this issue much more complicated than it has to be. Why should we not take Mr. Liszt at his word in the many letters and documents in which he proudly claims Hungarian identity? Certainly one could spend one's entire life sifting through letters, criticisms, contemporary biographies and anything else you could think of to attempt to posthumously correct Liszt on the matter of his own nationality, but why bother? First of all it comes dangerously close to violating Wikipedia policy on original research, second of all it's kind of mean. You are German, am I correct? Would you like it if, many years after your death, people arrogantly and cavalierly reassigned your nationality on the basis of their own "psychological point of view", inferences and reading between many lines?
I might point out that there could be a similar situation with Liszt's friend Chopin: Chopin was half-Polish, half-French, and like most musicians of the day made the center of his world in Paris. So, why not correct this proud Polish patriot and tell him and everyone else that he was really French? I just looked at the Chopin article and saw no arguments about his nationality, nor have I ever heard any in the wider world. Why is this, I wonder? K. Lásztocska 14:37, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear Anonymous Scholar,
you forgot Poland. He played "Jeszcze Polska nie zginiela" in Warsaw once, and caused a near-riot when the recently-conquered Poles heard their national song thundering from Liszt's piano. But that's neither here nor there. Like Mr. Liszt, I too speak several languages and play the music of many countries. Like Liszt, I have ancestors of several nationalities. Like Liszt, I live in the wider world among people of all cultures and ethnicities and have little patience for boorish provincial chauvinist-nationalism. So now will you tell me that I too am not Hungarian?
Myself aside, your evidence that Liszt did not consider himself a Hungarian is purely circumstantial and requires numerous inferences, leaps of faith and assumptions. I challenge you, sir, produce just one verifiable piece of evidence, a letter perhaps, in which good Mr. Liszt declares himself NOT to be Hungarian. Show me please, where does he plainly and simply state that he is not "from birth to the grave Magyar in heart and mind" ? Give me real evidence and not hints and shadows!
The more I engage in these sorts of discussions here the more I am convinced that only a Hungarian can understand what it means to be Hungarian. Ethnically, we are barely a cohesive group--we have Magyar and Hun and Slav and Tatar and Turk and German and anything else you can think of all mixed up in our blood. To be Hungarian is not a matter of DNA or the exact national political borders of Central Europe at the time of one's birth, it a deep conviction and loyalty in the heart. If you can prove conclusively to me that Liszt felt no such things for Hungary in his heart, then I will admit defeat. But until then let us assume that our dear friend Mr. Liszt was not a baldfaced liar and take him at his word.
"I may surely be allowed, in spite of my lamentable ignorance of the Hungarian language, to remain from my birth to the grave Magyar in heart and mind..." K. Lásztocska 18:48, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
There is no such song as "Noch ist Polen nicht verloren". It is called "Jeszcze Polska nie zginęła."
I take offense to your assertion that I cannot see things as they really are because I am too tied up in my own emotions. I would be defending Liszt even if I were Swedish, or Italian, or Turkmen, and if he were Russian, or Kazakh, or Norwegian, and....well, the list goes on, you get the point. I am not taking part in this argument for any petty nationalistic reasons, I am not trying to "claim" Liszt as one of "my own," I am putting up this fight because of my respect and affection for this great artist Liszt, such that on the matter of his cherished homeland and nationality I will not allow anyone to spit contemptuously on his grave.
Incidentally, you missed my point about the Hungarians being such an ethnically mixed people. I will try to clarify: what I meant to say is, the "Hungarian People" are almost impossible to define as one specific ethnic group. Living in the very crossroads of Europe and being overrun periodically has turned us into the national melting pot of Europe. Some of our greatest heroes ( Lajos Kossuth, Sándor Petőfi, the Hunyadis) have come from Slavic ancestry--and yet they still proudly and to the end of their days declared themselves to be Hungarian. Sure, the scholars will disagree, they will say "Oh, Petőfi's birth name was Alexander Petrovics, he thought he was Hungarian but he was wrong, he was actually Slovak." And meanwhile Petőfi lies in a cold unmarked grave somewhere in Russia, after giving his life and blood for Hungary! I cannot stress this enough: to be Hungarian you must simply consider yourself Hungarian, feel Hungarian, and love Hungary as your homeland. (Nowadays you also have to speak Hungarian, but NOBODY spoke Hungarian back then.)
Regarding the "Polish" Bach, according to Harold C. Schoenberg in "The Lives of the Great Composers", Bach in fact always believed himself to be of, yes, Hungarian ancestry. Apparently he once traced his family tree back many generations to some bakers in Hungary. Scholars, of course, dispute his findings, but does that change the fact that Bach proudly considered himself to be part Hungarian? (And simply writing a polonaise is hardly an indicator of someone being Polish, by the way.)
Most important: I am still waiting for your piece of conclusive evidence that Liszt did NOT consider himself a Hungarian. K. Lásztocska 14:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't speak Polish either, but I have enough respect for Poland and the Poles that I will call their national song by its proper name. Surely a man as intelligent as Liszt could have learned four words in Polish, especially being as he was a friend of Chopin's! (And as for German name vs. Polish name, is it really all that surprising that someone might be slightly offended (or at least irritated) when someone refers to "Noch is Polen nicht verloren" when, in living memory, Poland was wiped off the map by Germany?)
That, of course, is neither here nor there, as is the odd diversion about the sort-of-Hungarian Bach. To respond to your points:
We are arriving at a point at last, from which in our debating Liszt's may have been Hungarian identity there may an end come into sight. When comparing Liszt with a Hungarian of the Kossuth type it is even more evident that his Hungarian identity has been a highly problematic thing. (There is a very sarcastic poem by Heinrich Heine concerning exactly this.) Taking the Jóska Magyar version instead, there are strong hints pointing to the direction that there is much more resemblance between this and Liszt's own imaginations of being Hungarian, but this is not the subject which I want to discuss now.
So far as I can see, Liszt's father Adam Liszt assumed that he himself was not Hungarian but German. Having lived in a Franciscan order for some time and afterwards studied philosophy for one semester, he was in that time registered as "Adamus Matthäus Liszt, natio et loco natalis Germanus" which is Latin and has the meaning "Adam Matthias Liszt, of German nationality and born in a German place". To the question, in which way his son Franz was thinking concerning his own nationality when living in Raiding, can without doing posthumous mind reading not answered with certainty. But since Franz Liszt and his whole family were only speaking German in these times, it is highly probable that he thought he was German in the same sense as his father was. You may also have a look at the landscape of the "Burgenland" ("Country of castles") given by Alan Walker in his Liszt I, p.46. Near Raiding there are places with names like Deutschkreuz, Unterfrauenhaid and Lackenbach to be seen, and the names are all German. In other words, Liszt's family was living in a German colony. (There were German colonies in Russia as well, and many people still living there are until now proud of not being Russians but Germans.)
It can be shown that Liszt was in Paris regarded as being a German artist as well. I am remembering an article in the Parisian Ménestrel from February 19, 1837, in which Liszt's reactions are described when listening to Thalberg's piano playing in a soirée given three days before by Zimmermann, a professor at the Parisian conservatorium. According to the article, the Parisian contemporaries had expected that Liszt when meeting Thalberg would show compatriot solidarity. Since Thalberg was in Paris regarded as being a German artist, it was all the same with Liszt.
In winter 1839-40, Liszt all of a sudden started giving some of his well known statements concerning his Hungarian identity, so that something must have had changed. The thing which had changed is also quite well known. It was Liszt's assumption, there would have been a Hungarian family Listius of nobility rank (I took the name from a short remark in a Parisian paper.) a long time ago, and this would have been the line from which he himself came. It has in the meanwhile turned out that Liszt's assumption was wrong. So it was an error and can be compared with other errors in his letters to be found. (There are plenty of them.) From a logical point of view these different kinds of errors are to be regarded as being equal. As a result, the may have been felt Hungarian identity Liszt's has the same logical ranking as a wrong date given to one of his letters. In October 1858 Liszt got his most desired nobility rank by the way, but it was not a Hungarian but an Austrian one.
Concerning Poland having been wiped out by Germans, it has neither been Liszt's business nor is it mine or yours. Polish and German people are living altogether in the European Union today and they are doing it in friendly ways. Concerning the strong influences of the Père Enfantin, Francois Joseph Fétis and Felicité de Lammenais on Liszt, it would be a quite long story when trying to explain it in full details, and there would be many more of Alan Walker's mistakes to be corrected. But without knowledge of this background, Liszt's life and his development as artist cannot be properly understood at all. Chopin and Liszt were both talking French by the way. 84.61.93.253 19:27, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
To conclude your very interesting argument, I could add that Liszt was a perfect Austro-Hungarian. That is to say a man with a german blood , a Magyar heart and a French spirit (cf. "Dyonisos ou le crucifié", a french survey by P-A Huré and C. Knepper). Besides, if the anonymous scholar possesses enough bases to read French, I and the others french member will be happy to welcome his knowledge on the french version of the article .
yours sincerely
Alexander Doria 19:30, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
A man's nationality is not something to be assigned after his death by scholars in an ivory tower, whether they are Hungarian scholars or German ones, or ones from the planet Mars. It is something that Liszt and Liszt alone could tell us for certain. I make no pretense of being able to see across the firmament into the afterlife to gaze deep into his heart and find there a Hungarian soul. But I am acquainted with Liszt through his music, his letters, and several biographies of him (and yes, I have read more than just Alan Walker) and it is clear to me that he did believe himself to be "from birth to the grave Magyar in his heart and mind." Read his letters! Listen to Funerailles, Octobre 1849 and hear the agonized elegy he wrote for his defeated homeland! Hear the exuberant joy in his Hungarian Rhapsodies, especially the proud Hungarian Fantasy for piano and orchestra. Remember the tears in his eyes as he accepted that famous sword of honor from the Hungarian government and vowed to lead Hungary to greatness in art. And he did just that: his sword may have remained in its sheath during the terrible fighting of 1848, but if he had fought and died for Kossuth, he would not have been able, at the end of his life, to found a great conservatory in Pest. It is still standing, and now it bears his name. It is one of the finest conservatories in Europe and the world. Let that venerable hall and the countless great musicians who have passed through its doors be Liszt's final testimony. K. Lásztocska 18:08, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I won't indulge you with my tears. If you are really as well-read as you claim, you will have undoubtedly come across things like this:
"I am Hungarian, and I do not know a greater happiness than to introduce to my beloved country the first fruits of my education and studies-as the first expression of my gratitude. What is missing yet of my maturity I intend to acquire with lasting diligence, and perhaps then I will have the good fortune to become a small branch of my country's glory." -Announcing F.Liszt's "homecoming" concert that took place on May 1, 1823 in Pest.
And this:
"I may surely be allowed, in spite of my lamentable ignorance of the Hungarian language, to remain from my birth to the grave Magyar in heart and mind..." -Liszt's letter to Baron Antal Augusz, dated May 7, 1873 (PBUS, p.160)
Sir, tell me plainly, are you calling Mr. Liszt a liar? K. Lásztocska 19:39, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
As you do not seem able to put one end and find an agreement to the issue of Liszt's nationality, I propose you, once more, my mediation : Liszt was an Austro-Hungarian or, if you prefer Musil's concept, a Kakanian. Actually, his mother was a German from bohemia, and his father a magyarised German. Then, as the Austro-Hungarian civilization, Liszt stands as a product of a melting-pot of Mittle-Europa's cultures and civilizations. As others great Austro-Hungarian figures, Liszt is a francophile who put Paris at the very center of his universe. And, as the anonymous scholar focuses on, Liszt has a great respect for the imperial family.
P.S. I would appreciate you to read my remarks (please, scuse my english which may sound strange)
Yours Sincerely
Alexander Doria 19:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree with that--"Austro-Hungarian" isn't really a nationality, more like an unfortunate turn of history. But then I guess I'm not 100% neutral when it comes to the Habsburgs. :) Merci anyway, Alexander. K. Lásztocska 20:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
In fact the Austro-Hungarian empire wasn't really , like the British colonialist empire, an artificial and arbitrary construction. As the Musil's roman, the man without qualities, or the analysts of the Hungarian historian Fetjö show it, an Austro-Hungarian national spirit existed, at an embryonic state, before the collapse of the Habsbourg's empire. This spirit could have the following caracteristics : cosmopolitanism (which include francophilie), elitism, and love for culture and arts. You will agree with me that Liszt possesses all those caracteristics. Besides, in Liszt's time, Austria dosn't stand as the owner of Hungaria (it was the Habsbourgs), but only a geographic expression. He didn't only became an Austro-Hungarian by a turn of History. Anyway my ambition is to settle yours problems, not to create others. Then, if you find my mediation a little shaky, forget it!
Yours Sincerly
Köszönöm, Làsztocska (I feel cosmopolitan myself)
Monsieur Doria 16:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
With you, I, and the anonymous scholar we've got three different conceptions of Nation. In your point of view, Liszt is an Hungarian because he wanted to be one : you believe in an elective Nation as the French philosopher Ernest Renan who once said "La nation est un plébiscite de tout les jours" — which means that a nation exist only because people want to . In Anonymous Scholar's vision, nation is a racial concept : Liszt has German ancestor, then he is German (he joins Herder's theories). Finally in my mediation, I considered that people belongs to a nation because they have a specific way of living, and a particuliar collective spirit. To be neutral, the article on Franz Liszt should develop those three viewpoints.
Jó estét Lásztocska (What do you think of my Hungarian speaking?)
Monsieur Doria 19:43, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Once again, very well put. :) I can't believe I didn't think of that before--that instead of just flat-out stating LISZT WAS HUNGARIAN or LISZT WAS GERMAN or whatever, we could just "teach the controversy" as it were. We did that on Sándor Petőfi: after some heated edit warring and battling citations over whether he was ethnically all-Slovak or half-Serb, we decided: duhhh, let's just say "some believe him to be of entirely Slovak ancestry, other sources claim he was half-Serbian." And problem solved. :)
You're basically correct in your analysis of my concept of nationality. For the most part I do agree with your Mr. Renan. I also like your viewpoint about the "national character" and specific way of living, that's also quite important. I have little patience for racial theories--there is of course some place for them (blood of the ancestors and all), but generally I find such definitions of nationality unhelpful, imperceptive, usually obnoxious and often harmful. In Hungary, I'm sure you know, there have been heated debates over "Who is a Hungarian?" for practically as long as the nation has existed, and they show no sign of coming to any conclusion anytime soon. It's all very interesting. :)
Oh, BTW, te nagyon jól beszelsz magyarul. :) K. Lásztocska 20:15, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm glad that we come to a compromise . I doubt that A.S. will agree with it and, frankly, I don't care: my mediation was neutral and disinteressed (I stand both Germanophile and Magyarophile and I'm a Frenchman: I haven't any bias on Liszt's nationality) and you accept it with an open mind. Then I propose to all Liszt's contributors to make a chapter on Liszt's nationality in that way (I will do the same thing in the French version) :
Szervusz/Salut/I/(no German translation)
Messire Alexander Doria, roi potentiel de France et de Navarre 19:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Sigh. And I thought you'd finally decided to leave us alone. I am getting very tired of your condescending attitude towards me, sir. I may not be an international scholar, and I have not yet written a doctoral dissertation, but I'm not stupid. And you don't have to explain the difference between "Hungarian" and "Magyar" to me.
I am defending Liszt also, since EVERYTHING I've read states that his Hungarian identity was important to him and was a PART of the individual person he was. Where have I ever denied that he had German blood, French ideas, Polish and French and German and Hungarian friends, etc. etc. etc. I have not. I even agreed with good Monsieur Doria up the page when he said that Liszt was an internationalist. You, on the other hand, are bending over backwards and leaping from one dubious conclusion to the next to "prove" your pet conviction, that Liszt was not even in the slightest bit Hungarian in any way at all. Did I mention how you don't have to explain the difference between "Hungarian" and "Magyar" to me?
As for Funerailles, again, I'm not stupid. I KNOW it's part of a larger cycle of works. Funerailles was written in response to the crushing of the Hungarian War for Independence in October 1849. Hence the military fanfare, the soldiers' funeral march, and how do you explain the fact that an early sketch of the work bore the inscription "Magyar"? (Remember, I know the difference between Hungarian and Magyar!)
As for the Hungarian Rhapsodies, do you think I'm stupid? I know they aren't based on Real Authentic Hungarian Folk Music--believe it or not I am quite well read on the subject of Magyar peasant music. EVERYBODY back then thought that Hungarian music was Gypsy music, even those about whose nationality there is no debate. And actually, there is a quote from Liszt somewhere (I will find its exact wording and a source when I have more free time, which means not today) that he had a fond dream of going to wander around the countryside looking for peasant music. Bartók read that with much interest. :)
I have no more time right now to waste on this argument. Auf wiedersehen. K. Lásztocska 12:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
You must have some late in the discussion, Anonymous Scholar. Actually I and Lásztocka (and there isn't the slightiest doubt that Mason will join us) came to the following compromise : Liszt's nationality depends on which conception one gets of Nation (everything concerning that point is developed higher). However, I undestand you believe Liszt to be a 'Kosmopolitaï' (citizen of the world) without any nationality or an European. This is a possibility. But, anyway, and despite all your knowledge, I don't think that we can exclude his attachment for Hungaria, and make him German, or French (even if I would be very happy to learn that he was my compatriot).
Yours sincerely and 'Danke' anyway
Monsieur Doria 13:19, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Which is his mother's maiden name - Lager or Lagen? According to this article it's Lagen, but according to the article of Anna Liszt, it's Lager. -- 1523 15:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone explain to me why this section is so titled? If not I'll change it to something else. Arniep 14:34, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Does anybody know if Liszt became a priest or something similar. There was a story that he was a ladies' man, and he promised each he will marry them, it never happened. In order to avoid the promise, he studied 4 years to be a priest and he was ordained in 1860's, even though he had kids, he was a widow.
- Old newspapers say he married to avoid marriage and I do not mean to Caroline, but to other ladies, it's possible this happened before he met Caroline. So what kind of 4 orders? Was this similar to a brother? I know he was religious but...
Ok, I know somebody who can give you that file, leave your email here for few days, I will get that person to email you. But if he had women, still, should not even be Abbe. What's AID?
I have added "Liszt's virtuosity and technical reforms" and "piano recital" under Musical style and influence to shed some more light on his pianistic reforms. gordonf238 21:13, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
this section refers to his Transcendental Studies and then says that Schumann said they were playable by 8 or 9 people at most. This is incorrect. Schumann was referring to Liszt's Douze Grandes Etudes, which were the much more difficult precursers to the 12 Transcendental Studies - which are much more managable pieces. 199.111.216.222 06:39, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Was he greatest or did he get his virtuosity from Chopin? And yea, one of the reasons he was abbot, he wanted to avoid marraige.
Hmm...it is to my knowledge that the relationship between Chopin and Liszt was love/hate, they were close friends, but they could be envious at times. I think it is far too strong to say despise here, though I am not going to change it without approval. Lots could be said about the relationship between Liszt and Chopin, though I don't know much about Schumann and Liszt o_O — Pmerrill
I think I'll go ahead and take out the names altogether, that's pretty harmless, thus making it: "Some of Liszt's contemporaries saw this kind of worship as vulgar and inappropriate, and eventually came to despise Liszt because of it." -- Pmerrill 20:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The relationship between Liszt and both Schumann and Chopin is fascinating. It's clear that Liszt held Schumann and Chopin in the highest possible regard and was a champion of their works. But the tension with Chopin, according to the biographies and letters I've read, seem to indicate personal reasons for it relating to an occasion when Liszt used Chopin's apartment for a rendezvous without telling him about it (a story that has never been definitely confirmed), though the two did patch up their friendship by Chopin's final years. Schumann considered Liszt a genius who squandered his talent in the pursuit of mere showmanship and seems genunely dismayed by what he saw as a betrayal of Art for the sake of flashy pyrotechnics; Clara Schumann loathed Liszt and that is well documented. Mhare40
Should there be an article named "Composer-Pianist"? It's become a very common phrase phrase, as they are truly a unique breed when compared to regular "concert pianists". There are lots of pianists that could fall under that category, who made a living as both a composer AND a pianist - Liszt, Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Scriabin, Marc-André Hamelin, etc. Is it worth its own article? -- Crabbyass 18:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
He was also a conductor. He actively promoted the music of Berlioz and Wagner during his Weimar years, and continued to conduct much of his own music for the remainder of his life. I'm open to the idea of mentioning both of these attributes in the opening paragraph Gordon Freeman 15:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Broken category- nono. More seriously: I know of no evidence that Liszt was a freemason at all. He was a lay Franciscan as of the mid-1850s and later took minor orders- not inconsistent but not the same as evidence, which is lacking. Schissel | Sound the Note! 21:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Okay now -- what's up with the photo of Liszt at the top of this article? It's probably the ugliest thing I've ever seen! I, of course, mean no offense at all to whoever uploaded it -- any photo is better than no photo -- and if anyone should be offended by my comments it should be solely the actual photographer.
In any event, can we do no better than this? I did a search on google and found many, many photos/portraits of the great Liszt. Now, what's most important in an encyclopaedia, naturally, is the written content, and I think the editors have done a pretty good job here. However, the photo is so unattractive that I actually find it distracting: I think we should really consider switching that photo for one of his more dignified portraits, such as this one from Britannica.
I would just do it myself, but I don't think I can just take it from that particular (encyclopaedic) site and upload it here. Can anyone advise me in better detail as to Wikipedia's policy on this? -- Todeswalzer| Talk 23:24, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Excellent! I've switched the old photo for the Lehmann portrait. Thanks for the help. -- Todeswalzer| Talk 00:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
LOL! I was about to upload that pic myself--was musing on what Hungary-related articles needed work, and remembered "Oh yeah, that picture of Liszt Ferenc was absolutely gross, he deserves better, I should put up that painting of him when he was young and dashing." And lo and behold, somebody already did! Köszönöm szépen (thanks very much) to whoever put that up! :) K. Lastochka 02:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
The invitation was at the instigation of Maria Pavlovna, if I remember, but Carl Alexander played a large role. There's also now an article on Hippolyte André Jean Baptiste Chélard if his contract (Cornell U Press edition of The Weimar Years, page 96) with Liszt (immediately contradicted by Grand Duke Carl Friedrich (sorry, wrote Carl Alexander- who was not yet in a position to contradict that...), followed by ill-will...) is relevant*... I do think that the roots of the growing ill-will which helped create the "Barber of Baghdad affair" are of interest if maybe not for a brief article like here.
Much more generally, since some of Walker's references and footnotes on other subjects are presently unverifiable (in locked libraries, for example), a person feels uneasy about using his book for reference material at times. Ways in which his has since been superceded by better research would be of great interest to me.
Please see the new order on the external sites and check the sites I have there deleted. There is another (commercial) site: pianosociety.com/cms/index.php?section=221 which contains an huge collection of cds (to buy online of course). My other comments are on the hystory page. Alegreen 08:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not quite sure where to post this, but I think every composer should have his/her most remarkable interpreters listed in some standard way. -- Sdistefano 02:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
For me, it's Alfred Brendel, hands down. Listen to his recording of Annees de Pelerinage (Italy), he takes you to heaven and hell in the Dante Lecture like no other. Words don't do justice.. FRM SYD 08:58, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
patently untrue statement that his first language was Slovak removed (it was actually German), and unusual statement the veracity of which I seriously doubt removed from article and pasted here pending verification.
Here is the weird statement:
He was fascinated by the pre-Hungarian history of Slovakia, he dedicated Slavino slavno Slaveni (Let's Celebrate Famous Slavs) to St. Cyril and Methodius citation needed.
Anyone heard of this before?!?! K. Lástocska 20:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
The article currently states:
So then the question, Why no Opus numbers? If anyone knows the answer, I'd be very interested. (It might also be useful to explain in the article why the numbers are no longer used.) -- Todeswalzer| Talk 00:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
“ | Indeed, Liszt is frequently credited with re-defining piano playing itself, and his influence is still visible today. | ” |
This seems a little POV to me (if not the entire sentence, then at least the "indeed" part). I tried tweaking it, but it doesn't sound quite right any other way. (I didn't save the changes for that reason.) — The still-Esperanzan $PЯINGrαgђ Always loyal! 01:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I just removed this sentence:
He always used the German version Franz, never the Hungarian version Ferenc.
for the simple reason that it's actually pretty hard to tell. He was born as Franciscus, his parents called him Franzi, the Germans and Austrians called him Franz, the French called him either Franz or Francois, the Hungarians called him Ferenc...and he didn't help us poor confused saps out one bit by almost invariably signing his name as simply "F. Liszt." :) K. Lásztocska 01:56, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion the twofold advertising of Alan Walker’s Liszt is contradicting the required Wikipedia neutrality of point of view. Notwithstanding Walkers celebrity his three volumes are containing lots and lots and lots of errors and mistakes many of which have been refuted in subsequent Liszt research. Walker's books about Liszt are written from an extremely restricted kind of point of view, which means that everything Liszt did or is supposed to have done must have been admirable to the highest point, whereas all contemporaries with alternate opinions could only have been jealous (Ferdinand Hiller), have had paranoia (Princess Wittgenstein) or have been in some other kinds ill (Robert Schumann, Comtesse d'Agoult, Olga Janina and many others). In order to gain neutrality there should be added references to other books. (The Liszt biography of Serge Gut for example is comparatively excellent.) If someone really likes to get into contact with the personality of Liszt and his life, reading his own letters (published up to a huge amount) and playing his music will be the best way after all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.192.232 ( talk) 15:37, 16 February 2007 (UTC).
Re: "all contemporaries with alternate opinions..." Well, I must mention that Schumann WAS in fact mentally disturbed, Comtesse d'Agoult may not have been disturbed strictly speaking but she certainly had a melancholic personality, and as for Janina...she was completely nuts, and no one disputes that. :) I also understand your point about Walker's bias, but it must be remembered that basically, his books were probably the first real, serious, scholarly bio of Liszt (i.e. not based primarily on rumors, 19th-century tabloid sensationalism, romans a clef, and popular legends.) Certainly Mr. Walker may have erred at certain points, but his three volumes are still a very important and valuable resource. As M A Mason says, if you find factual errors by all means, correct them. But please do not dismiss the usefulness and significance of Walker's books (especially the corrected editions) because you don't approve of his admiration of Liszt.
K. Lásztocska
14:53, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
80.145.221.5 18:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
No no, you're right of course. Who am I? Just a stupid little student. You're a scholar. You certainly know more about this than I do--I'm not being sarcastic at all, I'm being completely serious. I apologize for being a snob and sticking my nose into things I know nothing about--I liked Walker's books, and I found them well-researched and convincing, but I am hardly a scholar of music history--hell, I'm not even in conservatory yet. So thank you, Anonymous Scholar, for reminding me that there are things I know nothing about and should stay out of. (Still not being sarcastic, this is completely sincere even though it might sound snide.) Wikipedia can do that to people, can convince even idiots, dilletantes and charlatans like me that they're experts. I am not an expert and as such should not be editing this article. Liszt deserves better than to have his article spoiled by a stupid little girl. (Regarding Schumann though, didn't he die in a mental institution? I didn't think there was any dispute that he went nuts toward the end of his life.) K. Lásztocska 23:48, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
80.145.1.161 09:55, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Could someone who has any knowledge of IPA provide a transliteration of Franz and Ferenc Liszt? It's a pretty glaring omission in the article.
I know the pronunciation of Liszt, but would Franz be like 'Frans', as if it were something belonging to someone called Fran, 'Fran's apple' if you see what I mean. Or would it be more like 'Frants'? And is the end of Ferenc the same as with French, 'Ferench', or more like 'Ferenk'? I have a feeling it's 'Frants' and 'Ferenk', but I'm not sure enough to have a go at the IPA myself. M A Mason 01:13, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
"Ferenc" is actually pronounced more like "Ferentz", I don't know German very well but pretty sure Franz is just how it looks. ("long A" sound btw...like "Frahnz") K. Lásztocska 15:35, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
According to Lizt's own statement in his later years Thalberg had been much more succesful in Paris than Liszt himself. Thalberg was also much more succesful in Italy and in England. In spring 1841 after two concerts of Thalberg in Vienna it was said that he was the real leading pianist of the time. Thalberg was admired by Robert Schumann who met him in October 1838 in Vienna, by Clara Wieck/Schumann who played works of him up to 1847, by Felix Mendelssohn Bartholdy, by Hector Berlioz, by Giaccomo Meyerbeer, by Giaccomo Rossini, by Ferdinand Hiller and many many others. To give some examples concerning the money which was earned by Liszt and Thalberg in their concerts Thalberg gave his first own concert in Paris on April 16, 1836. For that concert he got 10000 Francs. Liszt giving concerts in Lyon at the same time got 500 Francs for one concert. In spring 1842 Thalberg gave two concerts in Paris for which he got 12000 Francs and 13000 Francs. Liszt in the beginning of 1846 was happy for an offer to give two concerts in Paris for which he would get altogether 15000 Francs. While it was said that the compositions of Liszt were poor the compositions of Thalberg were liked and played in all Europe. If it is sayed that the compositions of Thalberg were mostly forgotten up to today it would be correct but the same goes for the vast majority of the compositions of Liszt. It would be difficult in fact to find artists who were not delighted by the music of Thalberg in the time around 1840. Liszt with his struggle against Thalberg was an exception of the rarest kind. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.102.54 ( talk) 10:31, 17 February 2007 (UTC).
Liszt was not the first composer who made piano arrangements of vocal and instrumental scores. There were thousands of arrangements made by many, many other composers and in a long time (several centuries) before Liszt. For his arrangements of Beethoven's 5th, 6th and 7th sinfonies Liszt took a piano arrangement for four hands by Czerny by the way. There were piano arrangements of the sinfonies by Hummel, Kalkbrenner and others in that time. Liszt's arrangements of the 5th and the 6th sinfonies were published in March 1840 and they were not succesful. Without minor exceptions they are hardly ever played today. The same goes for the vast majority of his song transcriptions notwithstanding the beautiful music Liszt made in many of them.
Liszt's letter to his mother mentioning his "Methode" is not from November but from October 19, 1835. Since it was a methode to be used by the students in Geneva and there were not many greatest pianists who ever lived among them it would have been a rather bad methode if it could really provide "an invaluable insight into the playing style of one of the greatest pianists who ever lived". There is some kind of known methode by Liszt. It is called "Technische Studien" and has been published in three volumes by Editio musica, Budapest. From a practical kind of point of view you could take Alfred Cortot's methode as well. Better results will be gained when using Czerny's Schule des Virtuosen which was studied by Hans von Bülow in his early Weimar years.
In the diary of Orlando Parry there are the following remarks concerning the concerts given by the group around Lavenu in Dublin: "At 2 this Morning (It is meant the afternoon of January 7, 1841.) 4th concert here, took place at Rotunda as usual. Bad attendance, only about 160 (...) Everything as flat as dish water - no applause, no nothing." and: "5th concert here. It was the Anacreontic Society 2nd Concert, but given in the small room of the Rotunda or Rotundo as they print it here. It was not quite so full as I had anticipated (400) (...) Liszt & Rudersdoff played a piece "Sonata of Beethoven" - 20 minutes long! 'twas dreadful!". In fact the "4th" concert was their first and the "5th" concert their second concert in Dublin. (They had attendend three concerts of other artists the days before.) The "dreadful" sonata should have been the Kreutzer Sonata. After having given two concerts in Limerick they returned to Dublin on January 12th (120 miles!) where they gave two further concerts on January 12th and 13th. It was only the concert on January 13th, a concert of the Philharmonic Society, where they had an audience of at least 1200 people. (The diary of Parry has been published in the Liszt Society Journal in 1981-82.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.162.45 ( talk) 11:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC).
I cannot understand what is exactly meant when saying Liszt would have revolutionized piano technique. At present state there is nothing more to be read that Liszt did something new which was new because it was new but nobody can telll what it was. (For some reasons I am just remembering an old picture which shows Liszt playing a four handed Sonata by Chopin with his left foot only but this was a caricature of course.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.112.116 ( talk) 10:30, 24 February 2007 (UTC).
Liszt brought piano technique to a whole new level. He had (by all accounts) an absolutely unbelievable virtuoso technique himself, characterized mostly by complete freedom (finger independence--he practiced his Czerny) and great expressiveness. He used that technique to revolutionary musical ends. As far as I know he was the first to treat the piano like an orchestra: listen to some of the Transcendentals, the Hungarian Rhapsodies, even the Annees de Pelegrinage, a lot of them are very "symphonic" in scope and style. (Then of course there's the famous story about him playing his transcription of the Symphonie Fantastique immediately after it had been played by the full orchestra, and apparently Liszt brought the house down, making an even stronger impression with just two hands on a keyboard than had been made by the entire orchestra!) I'm not a very good pianist myself and haven't played much Liszt, so I can't be very specific at the moment, but IMHO the "symphonic" thing is one of his most important contributions. (Of course he also, like Paganini, just wrote such damn difficult pieces that he ended up raising the overall level of technical virtuosity among the next generation of pianists.) K. Lásztocska 14:45, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
In order to be consistent as well as directing the reader's associations ("Les cloches de Genève" is by Liszt whereas "The Bells of Geneva" might be by Richards.) not only some but all of Liszt's works should be called with original titles in original languages. So the "Piano Sonata in B minor" should be "Klaviersonate in h-Moll" and the "Transcendental Etudes" should be "Etudes d'exécution transcendante". The "Etude in twelve Exercises" should be "Etude en douze exercises". The "March to the Scaffold" should be "Marche au supplice". (Liszt arranged all five movements of the Symphonie fantastique.) The "Divertissement on the Cavatina "I tuoi frequenti palpiti" from Pacini's La Niobe" should be "Divertissement sur la Cavatine de Pacini (I tuoi frquenti palpit)" according to the Haslinger edition. (It was composed in autumn 1835 and revised in spring 1838. According to the Latte edition, published in October 1836, there may have been a previous version for piano and orchestra but nothing has come to light of it.) The "Hungarian Rhapsodies" should be "Rhapsodies hongroises". (The animated cartoons have nothing to do with Liszt at all, may they have been funny as well.) The "Ballade No. 2 in H-Moll" should be "2. Ballade in h-Moll", the "Sinfonic poems" should be "Sinfonische Dichtungen" or "Symphonische Dichtungen" and so on.
You're not disturbing anyone, new perspectives and information are always welcome. :) My invitation to contribute here still stands, but if you don't want to that's fine. As for the language thing, I see your point--my point, which I probably didn't articulate very well, was that we should just use the names that are most commonly used in English-speaking countries. On the other hand, that would be a major pain to try and count up the # of uses of each language in every published edition, so I'll defer to you on this one. :) K. Lásztocska 17:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
He's apparently some big Liszt scholar--all the rest of us are schlubs and know-nothing charlatans by comparison. K. Lásztocska 01:18, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
80.145.0.225 11:29, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Good grief, is it THAT important? If we say "Piano Sonata in B minor" instead of "Klaviersonate in h-moll" it means that we are presenting some sort of " McDonald's" version of Liszt? Maybe you are not entirely familiar with the function of Wikipedia. It is not intended to elevate public taste, nor is it intended to be an arbiter of philosophical debates. (It is also not intended to turn ordinary English-speaking barbarians into nice civilized, cultured German speakers. :) ) It is intended as a compendium of knowledge and a source of free information. Most people using the English Wikipedia, if they are looking for information on the aforementioned sonata, will type "piano sonata in b minor" into the search engine, not "klaviersonate in h-moll."
My dear Anonymous Scholar, I must respectfully admit that I am beginning to find your posts ever so slightly unhelpful. You have confined yourself to posting big detail-ridden scholarly mini-theses on the talk page, but have not edited the article itself. If the article is really such a god-awful mess, well then, that's what the "edit this page" button is for. And if you have no interest in contributing to the article, then why the voluminous talk-page outpouring of titles, facts, impressive words, and making the rest of us ordinary Joes and Janes look like total idiots?
(By the way, stepping back from this particular issue I must briefly address all the various academics, scholars, professors and other folks who whine about how bad Wikipedia is and what an unreliable source of information it is. "Wikipedia is evil!" they cry, "we found mistakes!!" Well, my response to that is just what I said above: that's what the little "edit this page" button is for. You find a mistake, you fix it, and the Wiki gets that much better. OK, rant over. :) K. Lásztocska 23:16, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I leave it to those actively working on this article to decide whether to use this but Oscar Levant remarked, "The later piano works of Liszt were harmonically so inventive and new that they were the forerunner of the Impressionist school that Debussy founded." [Oscar Levant, The Unimportance of Being Oscar, Pocket Books 1969 (reprint of G.P. Putnam 1968), p. 129–130. ISBN 0-671-77104-3.] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jmabel ( talk • contribs) 07:33, 3 March 2007 (UTC).
Having read in your article that there is a letter Liszt's to his mother which begins in faltering Hungarian, and after an apology continues in French, I'd like to see it. Since it is apparently missing in the new edition of Liszt's correspondence with his mother (ed. Klara Hamburger, Eisenstadt 2000) I have got to search it eslewhere. So, please tell me where you found it. 80.144.195.184 18:05, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Having learnt that you are preferring doing corrections without listening to arguments before, I did some of them in your list of Liszt's works. For getting tired now I'll take a break. So please don't be angry that there have been some mistakes to be found left. Concerning that language problem I took the point of the view, that it will surely a better task for you finding out apropriate English titles instead of the titles given until now. (Anonymus Scholar) 80.145.10.217 10:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
The list with the selected works is already rather long. It will be much longer when adding some of the most important choral works and some others to it. For this reason I strongly suggest to build extra pages for the piano works, symphonic works, choral works etc. The extra pages may contain links leading to the single works. At present state some aspects are totally missing. An example is Liszt as editor of piano works by Beethoven, Schubert, Weber, Viole and others. Giving a remark to your article's principal style again (I know that you do not like it.), it is at present state looking like an advertising page. With such kind of a view, a life such as the life having been lived by Liszt can in no sense be understood at all. Liszt himself had a much more sceptical view at himself, and there have been good reasons for him thinking in that way. To give a single hint, his motto in his youth as it is known from one of his letters was: "I prefer being not happy and rich, but being happy and poor." He was not touring for 10 years just for the fun of it but for the purpose to get as much money as possible with his concerts. It was only in his later years (starting in the end of 1861) that he changed his philosophy and in his last years he was subjectively feeling being not happy and poor altogether. 85.182.47.210 19:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Concerning Robert le diable: The exact date of the concert in Hamburg was taken from an announcement in the "Hamburgische Correspondent" (a German paper). The further details have been told by Liszt himself (according to Liszt it had been "ein halber Misserfolg"); see the diary of his pupil Carl Lachmund. (There is an old edition in German and a rather new edition in English of it.)
Concerning the Hexameron: The fact that the variation by Czerny is the only really difficult one will easily be verified when looking into the score. It is besides my own experience, having played quite a lot of Liszt's piano music myself, and it is shared by all people known to me, who had also played it. The other fact, that Liszt skipped the variations by Czerny and by Chopin in many cases, is known from announcements and reviews of his concerts. (He made two own variations instead by the way, but it is not known whether he ever played them.) Giving some examples: In an announcement for the concert on February 18, 1838, in Milan, the variation by Czerny is missing. In an announcement for the concert on January 26, 1840, in Pressburg, it is explicitly to be read, that the Hexameron would contain only variations by Thalberg, Liszt, Herz and Pixis. From a review in the AmZ ("Leipziger Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung") No. 13 from March 1840, p.261-62 it is known that Liszt played the same selection in Prag. According to the AmZ No. 14 from April 1840, p.299 the variation by Czerny had been omitted in the concert on March 30, 1840 in Leipzig, and - so far as I can remember at moment - it is known from a review by Schumann that the variation by Chopin had been omitted as well. In this style I could go on, giving a very long list. 84.61.93.253 19:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Sir, I do respect your knowledge on the subject of Franz Liszt, please be under no illusion about that. You clearly do have a very scholarly background and have probably done more research about Liszt than I could ever hope to do. I do not doubt your credentials as a scholar, nor do I doubt your intentions in coming here and putting accross your point of view.
I have to speak my mind though, and say that it is starting to get tiresome coming on here to read essays about topics which are in no way to do with the article. This talk page is not a forum. If the nationality or whereabouts of Liszt on a certain date are to be debated, this is not the place, and there are plenty of music forums where this can be done. It is well accepted in mainstream scholarship that Liszt was Hungarian. I have never seen an article, website, publication of any sort that states otherwise. To say otherwise amounts to original research, which is not allowed here.
You have shown by your edits to the list of works section that you can be a very valuable contributor and a great asset to the article, and the project in general. Coming here and writing your essays not only wastes your own time, but the time of those reading it, but especially K. Lásztocska who has very patiently read and responded to all your comments, arguments and indeed accusations.
For your own sake and that of the article, let's spend time improving it; not bickering over what amounts to minor points which in the grand scheme of things are irrelevant. Here we should be talking about the article, and controversial subjects there, not what Liszt had for breakfast on May 8th 1840 or something similarly rediculous. Yours respecfully, M A Mason 23:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear friends, it may be allowed for me giving some principle words to some problems concerning your article and to this at the same time adding, that you will please not feel being offended as persons. A first problem is concerning the language. When taking the point of view that everything being said about Liszt has to be said in English and nothing else, and when this point of view has been taken to the utmost extreme, so that even Liszt's own letters and others of his private materials are only to be looked at if having been translated to English before, an understanding of his personality and his life is not only hard but certainly impossible. Liszt research is an international business today, and those who are interested in learning some of the results must inevitably try to get a fluent reading in different languages for it.
A second problem is that you are to a very high degree infected by Alan Walker's Liszt, reading his books as if they were parts of the Holy Bible, and I presume that it will be the same with many readers of your English Wikipedia article concerning Liszt. But the juice which you were drinking with this is nothing more than a picture of Liszt which may have been of interest some 60 years ago. There are all of the old stories concerning the greatest pianist of all times, the Hungarian Liszt and all the other stuff to be found. As a result, your Wikipedia Liszt has apparently been a person who was living for nearly 75 years, and in the last 25 of them doing nothing more but preparing himself for his death. From Liszt's own point of view in his youth he had not much fun doing his virtuoso job but he did it as good as he could, thereby thinking: "I do not mind the hell of critics and aesthetics when giving my concerts because I have got to earn money, and much of it." (I was citing from one of his letters.) Besides this, there was a hidden "ligne intérieure" ("inner line"), and following this line, Liszt arrived at a point at last where he could compose his real masterworks. From this "ligne intérieure", having been the more important and interesting part of him, there is nearly nothing at all to be found in your article at present state. When trying to calculate the moon's way around the earth in a similar way, you would surely conclude that because of the forces of gravity the moon is always falling straight down to the earth.
With the purpose of helping you, I gave a plenty of information and explanations in your talk page, and I corrected this and that in your article besides. But your imagination, it would have been sufficient just clicking at the edit button instead and after some minutes it would everything have been done, is really naïf. When trying to correct everything, my task would have been nothing less than writing the entire article myself. With every single word I had to fight against offended feelings of the one or the other person being until now with all strength of his heart bound to a picture of Liszt which has in Liszt research died a long time ago and has only survived in true scholarly masterworks of the Alan Walker kind. Liszt himself was until his end fighting against it, and he did it apparently in vain. Having already done a hard job until now, it is my pleasure, reading in comments that I am arrogant and mean, have eaten French potatoes and have several further qualities which are altogether also very nice. Concerning the length of some of my postings, there is not more to be said about it, that it was in reality a minimum in order to show from which sources my positions came. It is easy to say: "A. B. is surely the best Liszt player of all times!", to say to this: "No, it is C. D. instead!" and to say to those: "It is neither nor, but it is the most famous E. F., as everybody knows!" If it is this kind of debating which you like, please do it, but for my taste there are some things in the world being more interesting for filling my own time with them. I shall keep trying to help you, but the really strenuous task, writing the article, will keep being yours. 80.145.1.82 15:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
The person, who was thinking that there would have been a "ligne intérieure" and it would have been important, happens to have been a certain Franz Liszt, and it is known from some of his letters. (see PBUS, p.51, for example) The "ligne intérieure" is connected with the genesis of compositions like the Harmonies poétiques et religieuses, so please take this as a hint. So far as you are assuring not to be brainwashed by Alan Walker it is even the better. And since we agree that Liszt had not much fun doing his virtuoso job, please write it in your article and give examples for it. You will find lots of materials in his book about Chopin.
The debating of the nationality question was on March 5 put from my side to an end, and it was done in perfectly tolerant terms. After this I did nothing else but answering to the questions and outbursts from some other side, and I did it after having read in the Wikipedia help that this would be regarded as being polite. Your argument concerning the nationality question in the German Wikipedia Liszt is in parts correct, but it was not me who made that article in its former state. It has been my understanding of Wikipedia politeness not to change everything at a time. If you have a new look to its present state you will see that something has changed in the text. In order to completely remove the nationality hint, some patience will be needed. A Wikipedia article does not belong to a single person but it is works in progress and it is not perfectly ready yet. If you will click to the German talk page (It is really dull in comparison with yours after my entering it.) you may find that an Austrian person has complained. In reaction to this I took the name "Ferenc" away.
From my perspective, your assumption that a person must in all cases be associated with a single nationality is obviously wrong and it is even wrong in our days. There are people who are at the same time legally associated with different countries (some of the Turks living in Germany for example). Then there are people who are living in some country but who are regarded as to be associated to a different nationality. It is the case of the "Russland Deutschen" ("Russian Germans") who are subjectively feeling being Germans and are in an ethnic sens regarded as being Germans and have full rights after having come to Germany. At last there are people who changed their nationality. (Schönberg, Rachmaninoff, Einstein and Thomas Mann for example) Liszt will be taken at best when looking to his living and his music. From this point of view it is obvious that he was a European international artist, and I think that it is much more said about him than only saying he was Hungarian. Looking at him as a teacher, the same result is gained. In comparison with this, the fact that he was born in a place Raiding which was in 1811 a legal part of Hungary is to be regarded as having been per accident. It had in former times belonged to Turkey and it is today belonging to Austria after the people living in the "Burgenland" had voted for this. The Hungary of the time of Liszt's living does no longer exist. Taking the words "Austria" and "Hungary" with present state meanings, and there is no reason for doing it in a different way, Liszt was a person born in Austria and nothing lse. Liszt himself during his long life said this and that and the meaning of it as well as the reasons because of which he did it must be scrutinized in every single case. This is not a solitary opinion of mine but it is the collective experience of all prominent Liszt scholars with whom I was talking. (Alan Walker was not among them.) In order to gain a single inch in Liszt research it is a fighting of the hardest kind afforded. Writing an encyclopedia article about Liszt is certainly a very strenous task. 80.144.103.17 10:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
An opinion Béla Bartók's from his famous essay Liszt-Probleme ("Problems concerning Liszt") may be allowed to be heard. Bartók's opinion was shared by Margit Prahács in a note to Liszt's letter to Baron Augusz from May 7, 1873. (see PBUS, p.360)
In other words, Liszt's own point of view when trying to support a "Hungarian" music was and is until today regarded as having been absolutely wrong and of no use at all. In contrast to Bartók's position it is known from Lina Ramann's diary that the same point of view was already taken by Hungarians in 1882. Liszt was not only attacked for a supposed anti-Semitism but in the same time from the opposite side as well. 80.145.58.129 10:36, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
....and what's your point? K. Lásztocska 13:07, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
HAHAHahahahaha now you are even telling me that what I feel/hear/think when I listen to Liszt is the "wrong" thing! I know this essay of Bartók's, I know Bartók's life and work quite well. What Bartók and Kodály were saying about Gypsy music at that time was very important, as until then everybody, Hungarians included, thought that Hungarian and Gypsy music were one and the same. But B and K took the other extreme, that Gypsy music isn't Hungarian AT ALL. Well, surely in origin it is not Hungarian, but it has become such an important and integral part of Hungarian culture (especially urban culture--gypsy bands in coffeehouses etc.) From my perspective that type of Gypsy music which Liszt used in those notorious Rhapsodies is Hungarian, just not Magyar. As much as I adore Bartók, I have to diagree with him a bit as regards Hungarian Gypsy music. Saying Gypsy music cannot ever be considered Hungarian would be like saying jazz isn't really American since its roots are in Africa. Gypsy music was quite literally the folk music of the cities. K. Lásztocska 14:22, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Right, there we go--that's it. :) I still think the Rhapsodies are Hungarian also, because that's what they were intended to be, but yes, primarily just Liszt. :) I guess Liszt is like a gypsy, improvising on Hungarian melodies...:) By the way, did we actually just agree on something and come to a reasonable conclusion?! ;) K. Lásztocska 18:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Leave me alone. K. Lásztocska 16:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
In case that you like to add a little anecdote to your article you may take the following one which I found in an essay "Liszt et Thalberg" by Ernest Legouvée in the Parisian Ménestrel from May 11, 1890. In April 1842 Thalberg had given two concerts in Paris and Chopin had given one. Legouvée wrote to this in a review for the Parisian Gazette musicale: "When the eternal question will arise again who was the greatest pianist of today, was it Liszt or was it Thalberg, it will come from the public's side the same answer as the answer given by me: It is Chopin!" According to Legouvée he had been visited by Thalberg on the next day. Thalberg shook hands with him and said: "Bravo! Your article is nothing more but only just." In contrast to this, Liszt who had arrived in Paris some weeks later was heavily angry, refusing to talk to Legouvée for a long time.
Liszt had in June 1842 a Russian pupil Wilhelm von Lenz who later wrote a book about the golden age of the virtuosos' times. (You can find it in the bibliography given by A. Walker.) In the chapter about Chopin there are astonishing aggressions contra Chopin to be found, and it is hardly to be doubted that the aggressions had come in main parts from Liszt's side. There is a last chapter about Adolph Henselt, living in St. Petersburg, by the way, and from the point of view taken by Lenz it was Henselt who was to be regarded as the true champion of all of them. 80.144.122.132 11:01, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to give a further hint to our French colleague (as well as to all of the others of course), and I am thinking of R. Wagner's essay "Das Publikum in Zeit und Raum" ("The public in time and space") from 1878. It is mainly concerning Liszt's Dante symphony (dedicated to Wagner himself) but it is altogether an essay about Liszt as a composer in general. Wagner reminded of the two decades around the year 1830 and of the eminent elevation of the superior minds of the Parisian society in those times. Liszt was surrounded by them in his youth, and it was Wagner's opinion, that Liszt had imagined an assembly of persons of this kind as an audience when composing his Faust and Dante. Some days before Wagner wrote this, he had in his Villa Wahnfried in Bayreuth heard the Dante symphony played by Liszt himself, and it is known from Cosima's diary that Wagner was very much admiring it. The "Neudeutsche Schule" ("New German School") is therefore turning out to have been French after all.
Looking at Liszt on October 22, 1849, it can be read in a long letter which he wrote to Jean Francois Fétis on that day, that he was busily thinking of his Symphonic poem Ce qu'on entend sur la montagne after Victor Hugo, a French sujet. (I am relying on a copy of the letter which I got from the Goethe- and Schiller Archive in Weimar.) Liszt and Hugo had been close friends in the Saint Simonists' times of the early 1830s. In a long letter which Liszt wrote to his mother on October 22, 1849, he was as well busily thinking of the money he had deposed in Eisenstadt and in the bank of Rothschild in Paris. Unfortunately there is in both letters not a single word concerning Hungary to be found with the only exception of the money in Eisenstadt, so that I cannot precisely tell you what Liszt was presently thinking in this respect. But I can assure that he was gratefully thinking of the new cigars which he got as a birthday gift. 80.144.122.132 11:03, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I totally agree with you when you say that Liszt wasn't ONLY an Hungarian. He was also French, German, and maybe Italian. But I don't follow you when you say that he wasn't Hungarian AT ALL. Actually, Chopin, more than Liszt, stood as a difficult case for nationality: he was a perfect Franco-Polish (his mother was Polish, his father French, he spend one part of his life in Poland, and the other in France). Even though the French government doesn't blame Poland when the latter built an airport in Warsaw with Chopin's name. Why? Because it was undeniable that Chopin see himself as a Polish (he wrote so much "Polonaises"). I think that Lizst's issue for nationality is the same: did Austria react when Hungaria created musical institutions with Liszt's name? No because he wrote 12 Magyar Dalok, 19 Hungarian Rhapsodies, a lot of Csardas and Ungarish Romanzero, and transcriptions of Hungarian composers (Hunyadi Laszlo's Opers for instance). Anyway, it's also true that Liszt never knew hungarian speaking, that he behaved as a native French during the twenty years he spent in my country, and that he almost only spoke German from his settlement in Weimar to his death. All that shouldn't be occured.
I believe, like you, that Liszt was a multi-faceted figure, and I developed this idea in the French article. Actually he was in the same time a churchman, an international pianist, an administrator in Weimar, and a Magyar (a Leslie Howard's anthology used the same system). The issue of Liszt's nationality only stood, for me, in the following terms: was he an Hungarian or a "Kosmopolitaï"? I'm glad that you developed more interesting outlets to this issue, but I think we should put one end to this controversy : do you agree with my compromise? And if you don't, what disturb you?
P.S. I once read an article from Fétis about the fact that Chopin was merely superior to Liszt in the "Gazette musicale de Paris", and I don't find it anymore. do you know what it could be?
Alexander Doria 14:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Since I got the impression that it might be difficult for you to get certain sources whereas it is easy for me, I shall give the sources from which the well known story of Funérailles being correlated with the death of the Hungarian Count Batthanyi on October 6, 1849, is used to be drawn. The sources are described in: Mueller, Rena Charin: Liszt’s „Tasso“ Sketchbook: Studies in Sources and Revisions, Ph. D. dissertation, New York University 1986. (Mueller's thesis was published on micro film. If you like to read it yourself you can get it from the library of a university and make an own copy from the micro film. Mueller's writing style is sometimes somewhat confuse, but the impression from reading her book is in in so far correct as Liszt was an utmost confuse person himself.) The pages 251-277 are concerning the genesis of the Harmonies poétiques et religieuses.
Concerning Funérailles I am looking at Mueller’s p.270f. According to this, there had been a sketch "Magyar" from which materials were taken for the later Funérailles. (I have never seen the sketch "Magyar" myself.) For the sketch "Magyar" there is not a single date given, so that nobody can tell in which time it was made. It is known from a letter Liszt's to Joachim Raff from December 1850 that Liszt wanted to finish his Harmonies poétiques et religieuses before returning from Bad Eilsen to Weimar in January 1851. It should contain 6 pieces, but not Funérailles. On the other hand it is known from a further source that in the second half of 1850 Liszt had made or planned pieces "Marche funérailles" and "Cantique d'amour" for his Harmonies poétiques et religieuses. It is the impression after this, that Liszt was still uncertain of the cycle's final conception, and since 1834 there had been lots (a dozen at least) of different conceptions before.
Coming to the supposed correlation between Funérailles and the events on October 6, 1849, the only source which was given by Mueller (and in all of the other books I read) is a reference to Peter Raabe's book "Liszts Schaffen" ("Liszt's works"), p.248. Looking at that book it is to be read:
This is absolutely everything which had come from Raabe’s side. Looking at "Br. VI, p.266" (It is a letter Liszt's to Princess Wittgenstein from 1870.) it turns out that no victims of the Hungarian revolution are mentioned at all. According to the letter the Hungarian minister Horvath had recited an old poem by Vörösmarty from 1840 in honour of Liszt, and Liszt had "responded with compositions like Hungaria, Funérailles and some others" to it, whatever this "responding" might have meant. (Alan Walker in his Liszt II, p.71-72, n.31, gives a reference to LLB, vol. 6, p.266 (i.e. "Br. VI, p.266") as well, but cautiously avoiding to tell what the reader of the letter will find.)
The only source for a connection between Funérailles and the events on October 6, 1849, is therefore a guess Peter Raabe's without any foundation in sources. Raabe's supposition, Batthanyi would have been the only victim of the Hungarian revolution is obviously wrong, so that the question of the meaning of Funérailles in 1853, when the cycle was published, is in all respects open. People in 1853 who bought and played it could not find a single hint pointing to Hungary in general or especially to October 6, 1849 (There was no title of the "Funérailles, October 1849" kind but only "Funérailles"), and no sources even of private kind existed from which they could get knowledge of it. So far as they had read Liszt's book about Chopin before (It was written 1850-51 and published 1851-52.), they had from its last chapter good reasons for the assumption that he was altogether thinking of the death of Felix Lichnowski and Chopin instead, and that it was for this reason that in October 1849 a new period in his own life had begun. (In Liszt's subjective reminding they had both died in one and the same year, as he wrote in his book about Chopin, although the dates in the real world had been quite different.)
The cycle was published in 7 parts, and Funérailles was altogether the 5th part and the 7th piece. Without explicit explanations (It would be very long.) I add to this as a last remark, that the numbers 5 and 7 in Liszt's works have an autobiographical importance of the highest degree and are in most cases pointing to him himself. Stating it even more explicit, the numbers are pointing to an imagination Liszt's of living together with the Countess d'Agoult again. (His idea concerning the numbers might have been that the name "Marie" had 5 and the name "d'Agoult" 7 letters.) 84.61.63.73 16:38, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I did some new brainstorming concerning Funérailles in the last days and especially tried to find out from which source the added title "October 1849" had come. In the editions which I saw until now it is not contained and even the New Liszt Edition made in Budapest gives only "Funérailles". But there are several books claiming that the subtitle "October 1849" was a part of Funérailles, so that I shall take this version now. My next idea was that "October 1849" is also the title of Heine's famous poem concerning the benighted Franz who remained unscathed while Hungary was bleeding to death, and the sabre of honour which was lying in the chest of drawers. It is known from Heine's letter to H. v. Campe from November 16, 1849, that the poem was made four weeks ago and afterwards (in the time of Liszt's birthday) circulating in copies in Paris. (It has 15 stanzas and only the 6th, 7th and 8th of them are concerning Liszt.) It was published in the No. for September 1850 of the "Deutsche Monatsschrift für Politik, Wissenschaft, Kunst und Leben." I put to this a written answer by Liszt from November 1875 given to Lina Ramann which can be found in her diary. After some remarks concerning other pieces of his Harmonies poétiques and religieuses Liszt wrote:
While the second sentence is apparently indicating that there had been something embarrassing in connection with the piece, the date 1850 is at first sight looking like a mistake made by Liszt. But from the sources which I gave some days ago the date is known to be correct because it was the second half of 1850 when Liszt composed or planned to compose Funérailles. The piece might therefore have been a part of a response to the poem by Heine which had been very angrily read by Liszt. He had to defend himself and to explain for which reasons he had not taken part in the events of the revolution in Hungary. In order to do this he wrote the last chapter in his book about Chopin. Felix Lichnowski is only mentioned at that place and there was no further connection between him and Chopin at all. Lichnowski was praised by Liszt in many respects, and afterwards Liszt wrote that he had lost all of his interest in things correlated with Lichnowski after his death. Since Lichnowski had been killed because of political reasons, the thing for which Liszt had lost his interest was politics. It could be given a letter by Liszt to Joachim Raff as a source in favour of this. The things are altogether suiting perfectly, so that the tragic event of 1850 concerning Hungary which was in November 1875 remembered by Liszt would have been the publication of the poem by Heine. After this we may arrive at the compromise that Liszt was in connection with Funérailles altogether thinking of Lichnowski and Chopin but in some respects of Hungary as well. 80.145.61.60 18:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Gentlemen of the Wiki, scholars and students, Lisztians and Brahmsians, Leipzigers and Weimarites, Florestans and Eusebiuses, Germans and Frenchmen and Magyars and Brits, pro- and anti-Alan Walker, progressive or reactionary, the words of the immortal Béla Bartók have recently been posted on this page to support one editor's point of view. I would like to offer, reproduced here verbatim, with no edits, elaborations or omissions, some more of Bartók's words concerning Liszt. This is, in full, a letter written by Bartók to the Budapest newspapers to summarize a speech he gave at the Hungarian Academy of Sciences. The letter is dated February 3rd, 1936, and may be found on page 246 of the English-language hardcover edition of Bartók's Letters.
K. Lásztocska 04:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I cannot see which new aspects are given with this posting. The citation in "Béla Bartòks opinion, part one", was not an opinion of a pro- or anti-Alan Walker editor. The immortal Bartòk's own words were given instead. Your paragraph "The third question (...)" is nothing else but a short summary of it.
80.145.61.60
18:27, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
The first paragraph is a perceptive comment on the public's reaction to Liszt, which I just found interesting. I might add that when Mr. Bartók (A.S., please get your accent marks right) mentions "lacking the capacity to see what is really essential" and instead being "unduly influenced by superficial elements," he could just as well have been talking about our debates here...just something for all of us to keep in mind.
The second paragraph, just an interesting tidbit. No real relevance here, just thought you guys might like reading it. I also was very conscious to copy the entire letter, even parts that might seem irrelevant, to avoid the common fallacy of taking things out of context.
The third paragraph, as Mason has already said, clarifies the issue of Hungarian/Gypsy/Hungarian-Gypsy music. Liszt's mistake concerning the origin of gypsy music was simply that, an honest mistake, and his use of music that everyone (Magyars included) considered "Hungarian" music is hardly evidence that he was not or did not consider himself Hungarian, even though we now know that Hungarian music is a very different thing. Why should we punish Liszt for not being Bartók?
The fourth paragraph needs no explanation, as its meaning should be perfectly clear. K. Lásztocska 19:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
The fact that the performance of the Clochette-fantasy was a complete fiasco is known from several sources. There is a remark in the French paper "Le Pianiste" from November 11, 1834, p.16. Then there is an answer given by Liszt to Lina Ramann from December 1876. "Ich spielte damals die Fantasie (eigentlich Variationen) mit Misserfolg in ein paar Concerten." To this comes a letter by Liszt to Jules Janin from May 1846 which is also stating the complete fiasco from November 1834. The letter has been published by Jaques Vier in: L’artiste – le clerc, p.145. 84.61.27.11 14:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
The place where Liszt has been born was "Reiding" according to his birth certificate. Liszt himself and all the rest of his family called it "Raiding". For example there is a letter by Adam Liszt to Count Eszterházy with the original handwritten date "Raiding 13. April 1820". Hungary was a kingdom in those times, and since 1741 the Hungarian King was the Austrian Emperor. In 1809 the Hungarians got an offer from Napoleon according to which Hungary should have become independent from Austria, but it was not accepted by them. 84.61.27.11 15:01, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Exactly. If the Hungarian people, rather than the Austrian nobles who ran the place back then, had been presented with an offer of freedom, they would have run to it with open arms. As for Raiding/Doborján, there is a convincing case that can be made either way, for once I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other. Maybe "Raiding (also called Doborjan)" or something like that? K. Lásztocska 00:59, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Franz Liszt/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
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This is an assessment of article Franz Liszt by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards ( WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described?
Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article.
Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)?
Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.)
Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references?
Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.)
This is mostly a very good biography. It seems to cover Liszt's life fairly thoroughly, and gives good coverage to personal, professional, performance, and composing activities. The most glaring defect in the article is already tagged: his legacy. While his student legacy is described in enough detail that it ought to be in a separate article, there is very little 20th-century appreciation -- are there any modern composers who credit Liszt as an influence? (ditto performers) Presumably many do, but a few choice quotes or names would go far here. A short section on Memorials noting the most important places and objects comemmorating him would also be welcome. (We know he died at Bayreuth; was he buried there?) The article is long enough as it is that more things can be split from it. I note that Life of Franz Liszt has been split out; this means the bio in this article can probably be shortened significantly. Each section of the bio probably ought to be shortened to about 2 medium paragraphs, 3 max. Liszt as Pianist (and Liszt as Teacher) could also be split (and possibly expanded then), with a shorter summary here. If editors want to move this article toward FA consideration, it will require more inline citations; parts are well-cited, but others are not. Article is B-class; legacy needs work. Magic ♪piano 16:50, 2 February 2009 (UTC) |
Last edited at 13:08, 7 November 2010 (UTC). Substituted at 20:26, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
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... "if not the greatest" ...
Regarding Iggy402's removal, on 06:06, 14 November 2006, of "if not the greatest," I see the point about the danger of inserting personal point of view. However, to say that Liszt is merely "one of the greatest pianists in history," instead of "one of the greatest - if not the greatest - pianists in history," still seems a significant understatement, given extraordinary and credible testimonies of his contemporaries and expert opinions which have followed. The preponderance of these suggest a distinct possibility that Liszt indeed was the greatest. For this reason, my insertion on 10:56, 2 November 2006 of the phrase "if not the greatest" seemed reasonable - especially since I still was stopping well short of asserting that he in fact WAS the greatest.
For this same reason, I applaud K. Lastochka's 23:59, 14 November 2006 contribution, which gives Liszt credit where it is due, more credit than for being merely "one of the greatest" pianists in history.
Still I believe it is reasonable to point out that he is generally considered to be one of the greatest - if not the greatest - pianists in history. Again, to say that he merely was "one of the greatest" pianists in history seems an understatement. Bstct 09:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Glad you appreciate my contributions. :) I should probably be watched carefully lest I add some POV of my own though--I'm a big Liszt fan lately. :) K. Lastochka 15:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
"the Comtess d'Agoult". Comtess skould be either Comtesse or Countess.
S.
The reference to "Hungarian Rhapsody" was added by an anonymous user, who apparently wasn't aware that Liszt wrote 19 of them. Which one do you reckon he/she was thinking of? #2, perhaps? -- Ortonmc 03:08, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I am very confused by the numbering of Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody! I have a Naxos CD, 8.550327, which contains a Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2 in C#m, arranged for orchestra. In the program notes it is read, "Hungarian Rhapsody, No. 2 (No. 12) the most popular of Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsodies, No. 2 in the orchestral arrangements the composer made with the aid of Franz Doppler, and No. 12 in the set of 19 for piano, was composed in 1853 and dedicated to the young virtuoso violinist Joseph Joachim, who that year had brought Brahms to visit him. ..."
But when I listen to a DVD Kissin (The Gift of Music), he plays Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody No. 12 in C#m, it is totally a different piece! And I've tried to search for Hungarian Rhapsody in google, it is strange that many websites give a different numbering, some of them have the No. 2 in GbM, some of them C#m, some of them Dm! And the most problematic is Liszt has written two Hungarian Rhapsody in C#m, and some websites have listed No. 2 C#m and No. 12 C#m. It is really confusing. Could anyone help to give an answer? 203.186.238.243 20:07, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Sometimes Ferenc? What is the original full Hungarian name? Rafał Pocztarski 11:54, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I think the biographical information here would be more readable if organized similarly to how Haydn and Chopin are seperated into sub sections and headers. Thoughts? -- Sketchee 17:19, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Dear wikifriends, in book Franz Liszt, compositeur slovaque (Paperback), Miroslav Benko, L'Age d'Homme Editions (2003), ISBN: 2825117897 is written, that F. Liszt has slovak nationality.
This was removed as it probably shouldn't be here. I thought I'd just save it in case anyone wants something to develop a page on Nationalism in music or even a section on the nationalism page. -- Sketchee 01:16, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)
To my knowledge, Liszt is commonly referred to as a Hungarian composer, which is an image he helped to promulgate, but I believe that he actually does not have any Hungarian ancestry. He was Austrian. --11/21/05
He was not Austrian, but an ethnic German Hungarian. As he said: "Je suis Hongrois".
According to my knowledge his father Adam Liszt was Slovak since both his parents (Juraj (eng. Georg) List and Barbara Šlesáková) were Slovaks (both his parents and Adam Liszt were speaking slovak as a first language). It implies that he (Franz Liszt) has Slovak German origin and not Hungarian German. He also learned hungarian as a second language and never used it extensively. So to call him hungarian composer is possible only in the context of 19th century since he was born in Austria-Hungary Empire which consisted of Austria, Hungary, Bohemia, Moravia, Slovakia, and parts of Poland, Romania, Slovenia, Croatia, and Italy. But to oversimplify and to relate him exclusively to present Hungary now in 21st century is really impropriate. My source is the book "Franz Liszt, compositeur slovaque", author Miroslav Demko, publisher Lausanne : Editions L'âge d'homme, 2003. This book is available in the library of the University of Oxford. I want to ask people really interested in this article to check upon this information. Iambilko 04:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Liszt was German Hungarian. His Slovak origin is a nationalistic fabrication.
First of all we need to understand what we mean with an ethnic hungarian. Hungarians are generally considered to be the most mixed ethnicity in Europe. Actually, most hungarians have also slav and german ancestry, more or less, as well as other ethnicity. Liszt had to. The name Liszt and that family may have had, with a high probability, same roots as a transylvanian-hungarian family named Liszty, Liszthy, Liszthiusz etc. That family was hungarian-speaking already in the 1500-century.A part of this family moved to the very same parts of Hungary where the composer had his relatives. Most of of the Liszt family were lutherans as the lutheran Liszts that moved from Transsylvania to the northern parts of what now is Burgenland. Probably Liszt is a descendant of this family. If this is true he might have some remote ancestry with the Hunyady family! According to Liszts statements and according to photos of him his mongoloid features are sometimes recognizable. This could mean that he had magyar roots. The mongoloid element in central europe is associated with the magyar tribes or some proto-magyar ones as the avars or the more distant huns. From an anthropological point of wiev Liszt had magyar ancestry with the uttermost probability. What is most important is however his own feeling in the matter. In this respect he was without doubt hungarian. He was even a nationalistic hungarian. And among nationalistic hungarians he was among the most excessively so. It doesn´t matter at all that he besides magyar also had german, austrian and different slav forefathers. Beside this he seemes to have had roumanian as well. It is quite sure that he had magyar, german and slav roots, as most hungarians do have. The name Liszt is according to bartok slavic. That doesn´t mean that it is slovakian. Some of Liszts ancestors on his fathers side wore the name Slezak. The name Schlezak is a germanized western-slav name. Probably it is czech or moravian and not originaly slovakian. The Slezaks probably however mixed with slovakians and probably magyars as well. On the other hand there are several milion people of mixed slovakian hungarian ancestry. Most of these consider themselves hungarian. Petöfi is one good example. Petöfi had however some magyar ancestry on his mothers side, but she was predominantely of slovak origin.
25 Aug 2006 Laszlo IG Schüszler
THERE are three options: "austrian-hungarian composer", "german-hungarian composer" or "hungarian composer of german descent". Hungarian alone is not correct, Liszt has (austro-)german parents and was born (and lived) in the german part of hungary (called german-west-hungary), and hungary wasn´t a free independent country that time, it was just a part of the austrian "reich". The hungarians where not free in 1811.
I say: He is an austrian-hungarian composer, german-slovacian descent
How could Franz Liszt have been an enthusiastic Hungarian nationalist if he couldn't even master the language fluently? Did he not attempt writing a letter in Hungarian once, but change to French quickly with apologies that he was unable to complete it in Hungarian. I would have assumed that being a Nationalist of a country would include making the effort of learning the language sufficiently...
On another matter; Franz Liszt appears to be on the 'List of Austrians'; don't think that's entirely correct
What makes you so sure he didn't try to learn? :) As a patriotic Hungarian whose mother tongue is not Magyar, I can attest to the fact that it's damn hard to learn!! :) If he was able to write even half a letter, well, then that's pretty good. :) K. Lastochka 02:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
The section about Liszt's meeting with Beethoven takes up way too much place IMO. It is interesting though, so I suggest we move it to a separate article (e.g. Liszt and Beethoven) and reduce it to a single sentence or so within the main article, with a link to the new article. — Pladask 12:57, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)
Audio sample- in the media sample, what's Au bord d'une? (Resolves to download that audio sample soon, but if it turns out to be Au bord d'une source, it really should be labeled as such)
Reading- a further reading section with e.g. biography references may be good (I'd nominate Walker's, unsurprisingly, for instance.) Schissel : bowl listen 03:02, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)
The current link at the end of Noted Works is 404. I know a couple good sites that list Searle numbers (liszt.dk, lisztworks.com), but neither lists Raabe numbers.
Many articles about musicans or composers etc on wikipedia start with "is considered to be the greatest/best..." or something like that, like in this article "Possibly the greatest virtuoso of all time". Adding things like that is just unnecessary and stupid, weather he/she/it is good or not is highly subjective. It's just as stupid as "This is Franz Lizst(for example), some people like him, some don'ta". As if peoples oppinions would change if they found out he is appreciated by some. Thats one the problem with society, people care to much what other people thing.
Well to get on topic again: Less of that stuff.
There is third concerto in Eb major too.
Franz Liszt is a musical hero to me. However, there should be some mention of his anti-semitic views, even if its justs a blurb.
I'm not sure, I guess I really don't know. I sure would like to find out. Thank you for posting, as this is the first time I've heard about Alan Walker. I would really like to find any analysis of evidence, letters, correspondance, etc. that could shed some light either way.
After a bit of digging, it appears that Alan is the most comprehensive source on Liszt to date. Also, I would add:
Franz Liszt: A Guide to Research by Michael Saffle
Contained within Saffle's book is a reference to the following book:
Liszt: A Self-portrait in His Own Words, ed. David Whitwell. Northridge, CA: Winds, 1986. vii, 242 pp. ML410.L7A164 1986.
"A summary of Liszt's life, character, and activities drawn from the composer's letters, essays, and other documents. Includes observations made by Liszt on the Jews, the peoples of various nations, and a variety of individuals--among them, Bach, Ludwig II of Bavaris, Tolstoy, and Wagner."(Saffle)
Perhaps 'ol Liszt got a bad rap? I think you may be correct. Gstejska 08:45, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Here's one more source:
Riehn, Rainer. "Wilder die Verunglimpfung des Andenkens Verstorbener. Liszt soll Antisemit gewesen sein...." pp. 100-14
Keep in mind that people were generally much more anti-semitic and racist in the 19th century than they are today. It is easy for us to criticize people from 200 years ago, as if we would have been different had we lived back then. Chances are we would not, because it was simply accepted by white Christians that nonwhites and jews were racially inferior. That said, I've never seen any evidence that Liszt was anti-semitic. I can't give you a footnote, but I recall reading a bit of a letter from Liszt to (I believe) the Princess Sayn-Wittgenstein encouraging her to meet & hear a new student of his, "though he is of the tribe of Jacob." That student was Carl Tausig, a Jew and one of Liszt's star pupils, to whom Liszt was especially devoted, and whose death at age 29 was bitterly mourned by Liszt, as Tausig was said to remind Liszt of his own son Daniel who had similarly died young some 12 years before.
\\David Curtin, Lock Haven USA 9/1/06
Gstejska 22:40, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I have never found any evidence that F.L. was antisemitic. In fact he often seems to be significantly less so than some of his contemporaries (*cough* Wagner *cough*). I have read in many books that the nasty bits in his books were put in by Princess Caroline--sorry I can't cite any sources right now... :( just my 2 cents. K. Lastochka 02:35, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
84.61.63.109 15:35, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Franz Liszt is famous for his invention of the tone poem, or symphonic poem. The Wiki 'symphonic poem' article mentions this fact, and links to Liszt, but there is no mention in the actual Liszt article about his invention. It might be prudent to include this, as well as a link in a paragraphed section other than a listing of his works, which could be quickly skimmed over & missed.
What was it? His mother was german. His father was magyarised german. He DIDN`T EVEN SPOKE HUNGARIAN!!!!!!!!!!! Can anyone show me just one prove that Frantz Liszt spoke hungarian? A letter, a journal, anything! NO YOU CAN`T!!! Because he didn`t spoke hungarian. Even if he didn`t, is there any prove that he ever called, or considered himself "magyar"? Greier 18:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
ACtually Franz Liszt did consider himself Hungarian, and true he didn't know the language very well..he was half Austrian. Adam Liszt was Hungarian, born in Hungary, worked with a Hungarian family, has a Hungarian surname and Hungarian diacratics on name. Where is the evidence that he was 100% German? Leave the sentence as it was before 65.185.213.33 changed it without reason
So, bottom line is he was an assimilated Hungarian, whose family were assimilated Hungarians, and he WAS in fact Hungarian even though he came from Germanic stock. Kind of like Lajos Kossuth.....nationality and ethnicity get pretty mushy in Central Europe, the way I see it is if somebody feels Hungarian, calls himself Hungarian and loves Hungary as his homeland, then he's Hungarian. :) K. Lastochka 02:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Anonymous Scholar! How I've missed you! :)
Sir, you are making this issue much more complicated than it has to be. Why should we not take Mr. Liszt at his word in the many letters and documents in which he proudly claims Hungarian identity? Certainly one could spend one's entire life sifting through letters, criticisms, contemporary biographies and anything else you could think of to attempt to posthumously correct Liszt on the matter of his own nationality, but why bother? First of all it comes dangerously close to violating Wikipedia policy on original research, second of all it's kind of mean. You are German, am I correct? Would you like it if, many years after your death, people arrogantly and cavalierly reassigned your nationality on the basis of their own "psychological point of view", inferences and reading between many lines?
I might point out that there could be a similar situation with Liszt's friend Chopin: Chopin was half-Polish, half-French, and like most musicians of the day made the center of his world in Paris. So, why not correct this proud Polish patriot and tell him and everyone else that he was really French? I just looked at the Chopin article and saw no arguments about his nationality, nor have I ever heard any in the wider world. Why is this, I wonder? K. Lásztocska 14:37, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear Anonymous Scholar,
you forgot Poland. He played "Jeszcze Polska nie zginiela" in Warsaw once, and caused a near-riot when the recently-conquered Poles heard their national song thundering from Liszt's piano. But that's neither here nor there. Like Mr. Liszt, I too speak several languages and play the music of many countries. Like Liszt, I have ancestors of several nationalities. Like Liszt, I live in the wider world among people of all cultures and ethnicities and have little patience for boorish provincial chauvinist-nationalism. So now will you tell me that I too am not Hungarian?
Myself aside, your evidence that Liszt did not consider himself a Hungarian is purely circumstantial and requires numerous inferences, leaps of faith and assumptions. I challenge you, sir, produce just one verifiable piece of evidence, a letter perhaps, in which good Mr. Liszt declares himself NOT to be Hungarian. Show me please, where does he plainly and simply state that he is not "from birth to the grave Magyar in heart and mind" ? Give me real evidence and not hints and shadows!
The more I engage in these sorts of discussions here the more I am convinced that only a Hungarian can understand what it means to be Hungarian. Ethnically, we are barely a cohesive group--we have Magyar and Hun and Slav and Tatar and Turk and German and anything else you can think of all mixed up in our blood. To be Hungarian is not a matter of DNA or the exact national political borders of Central Europe at the time of one's birth, it a deep conviction and loyalty in the heart. If you can prove conclusively to me that Liszt felt no such things for Hungary in his heart, then I will admit defeat. But until then let us assume that our dear friend Mr. Liszt was not a baldfaced liar and take him at his word.
"I may surely be allowed, in spite of my lamentable ignorance of the Hungarian language, to remain from my birth to the grave Magyar in heart and mind..." K. Lásztocska 18:48, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
There is no such song as "Noch ist Polen nicht verloren". It is called "Jeszcze Polska nie zginęła."
I take offense to your assertion that I cannot see things as they really are because I am too tied up in my own emotions. I would be defending Liszt even if I were Swedish, or Italian, or Turkmen, and if he were Russian, or Kazakh, or Norwegian, and....well, the list goes on, you get the point. I am not taking part in this argument for any petty nationalistic reasons, I am not trying to "claim" Liszt as one of "my own," I am putting up this fight because of my respect and affection for this great artist Liszt, such that on the matter of his cherished homeland and nationality I will not allow anyone to spit contemptuously on his grave.
Incidentally, you missed my point about the Hungarians being such an ethnically mixed people. I will try to clarify: what I meant to say is, the "Hungarian People" are almost impossible to define as one specific ethnic group. Living in the very crossroads of Europe and being overrun periodically has turned us into the national melting pot of Europe. Some of our greatest heroes ( Lajos Kossuth, Sándor Petőfi, the Hunyadis) have come from Slavic ancestry--and yet they still proudly and to the end of their days declared themselves to be Hungarian. Sure, the scholars will disagree, they will say "Oh, Petőfi's birth name was Alexander Petrovics, he thought he was Hungarian but he was wrong, he was actually Slovak." And meanwhile Petőfi lies in a cold unmarked grave somewhere in Russia, after giving his life and blood for Hungary! I cannot stress this enough: to be Hungarian you must simply consider yourself Hungarian, feel Hungarian, and love Hungary as your homeland. (Nowadays you also have to speak Hungarian, but NOBODY spoke Hungarian back then.)
Regarding the "Polish" Bach, according to Harold C. Schoenberg in "The Lives of the Great Composers", Bach in fact always believed himself to be of, yes, Hungarian ancestry. Apparently he once traced his family tree back many generations to some bakers in Hungary. Scholars, of course, dispute his findings, but does that change the fact that Bach proudly considered himself to be part Hungarian? (And simply writing a polonaise is hardly an indicator of someone being Polish, by the way.)
Most important: I am still waiting for your piece of conclusive evidence that Liszt did NOT consider himself a Hungarian. K. Lásztocska 14:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't speak Polish either, but I have enough respect for Poland and the Poles that I will call their national song by its proper name. Surely a man as intelligent as Liszt could have learned four words in Polish, especially being as he was a friend of Chopin's! (And as for German name vs. Polish name, is it really all that surprising that someone might be slightly offended (or at least irritated) when someone refers to "Noch is Polen nicht verloren" when, in living memory, Poland was wiped off the map by Germany?)
That, of course, is neither here nor there, as is the odd diversion about the sort-of-Hungarian Bach. To respond to your points:
We are arriving at a point at last, from which in our debating Liszt's may have been Hungarian identity there may an end come into sight. When comparing Liszt with a Hungarian of the Kossuth type it is even more evident that his Hungarian identity has been a highly problematic thing. (There is a very sarcastic poem by Heinrich Heine concerning exactly this.) Taking the Jóska Magyar version instead, there are strong hints pointing to the direction that there is much more resemblance between this and Liszt's own imaginations of being Hungarian, but this is not the subject which I want to discuss now.
So far as I can see, Liszt's father Adam Liszt assumed that he himself was not Hungarian but German. Having lived in a Franciscan order for some time and afterwards studied philosophy for one semester, he was in that time registered as "Adamus Matthäus Liszt, natio et loco natalis Germanus" which is Latin and has the meaning "Adam Matthias Liszt, of German nationality and born in a German place". To the question, in which way his son Franz was thinking concerning his own nationality when living in Raiding, can without doing posthumous mind reading not answered with certainty. But since Franz Liszt and his whole family were only speaking German in these times, it is highly probable that he thought he was German in the same sense as his father was. You may also have a look at the landscape of the "Burgenland" ("Country of castles") given by Alan Walker in his Liszt I, p.46. Near Raiding there are places with names like Deutschkreuz, Unterfrauenhaid and Lackenbach to be seen, and the names are all German. In other words, Liszt's family was living in a German colony. (There were German colonies in Russia as well, and many people still living there are until now proud of not being Russians but Germans.)
It can be shown that Liszt was in Paris regarded as being a German artist as well. I am remembering an article in the Parisian Ménestrel from February 19, 1837, in which Liszt's reactions are described when listening to Thalberg's piano playing in a soirée given three days before by Zimmermann, a professor at the Parisian conservatorium. According to the article, the Parisian contemporaries had expected that Liszt when meeting Thalberg would show compatriot solidarity. Since Thalberg was in Paris regarded as being a German artist, it was all the same with Liszt.
In winter 1839-40, Liszt all of a sudden started giving some of his well known statements concerning his Hungarian identity, so that something must have had changed. The thing which had changed is also quite well known. It was Liszt's assumption, there would have been a Hungarian family Listius of nobility rank (I took the name from a short remark in a Parisian paper.) a long time ago, and this would have been the line from which he himself came. It has in the meanwhile turned out that Liszt's assumption was wrong. So it was an error and can be compared with other errors in his letters to be found. (There are plenty of them.) From a logical point of view these different kinds of errors are to be regarded as being equal. As a result, the may have been felt Hungarian identity Liszt's has the same logical ranking as a wrong date given to one of his letters. In October 1858 Liszt got his most desired nobility rank by the way, but it was not a Hungarian but an Austrian one.
Concerning Poland having been wiped out by Germans, it has neither been Liszt's business nor is it mine or yours. Polish and German people are living altogether in the European Union today and they are doing it in friendly ways. Concerning the strong influences of the Père Enfantin, Francois Joseph Fétis and Felicité de Lammenais on Liszt, it would be a quite long story when trying to explain it in full details, and there would be many more of Alan Walker's mistakes to be corrected. But without knowledge of this background, Liszt's life and his development as artist cannot be properly understood at all. Chopin and Liszt were both talking French by the way. 84.61.93.253 19:27, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
To conclude your very interesting argument, I could add that Liszt was a perfect Austro-Hungarian. That is to say a man with a german blood , a Magyar heart and a French spirit (cf. "Dyonisos ou le crucifié", a french survey by P-A Huré and C. Knepper). Besides, if the anonymous scholar possesses enough bases to read French, I and the others french member will be happy to welcome his knowledge on the french version of the article .
yours sincerely
Alexander Doria 19:30, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
A man's nationality is not something to be assigned after his death by scholars in an ivory tower, whether they are Hungarian scholars or German ones, or ones from the planet Mars. It is something that Liszt and Liszt alone could tell us for certain. I make no pretense of being able to see across the firmament into the afterlife to gaze deep into his heart and find there a Hungarian soul. But I am acquainted with Liszt through his music, his letters, and several biographies of him (and yes, I have read more than just Alan Walker) and it is clear to me that he did believe himself to be "from birth to the grave Magyar in his heart and mind." Read his letters! Listen to Funerailles, Octobre 1849 and hear the agonized elegy he wrote for his defeated homeland! Hear the exuberant joy in his Hungarian Rhapsodies, especially the proud Hungarian Fantasy for piano and orchestra. Remember the tears in his eyes as he accepted that famous sword of honor from the Hungarian government and vowed to lead Hungary to greatness in art. And he did just that: his sword may have remained in its sheath during the terrible fighting of 1848, but if he had fought and died for Kossuth, he would not have been able, at the end of his life, to found a great conservatory in Pest. It is still standing, and now it bears his name. It is one of the finest conservatories in Europe and the world. Let that venerable hall and the countless great musicians who have passed through its doors be Liszt's final testimony. K. Lásztocska 18:08, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I won't indulge you with my tears. If you are really as well-read as you claim, you will have undoubtedly come across things like this:
"I am Hungarian, and I do not know a greater happiness than to introduce to my beloved country the first fruits of my education and studies-as the first expression of my gratitude. What is missing yet of my maturity I intend to acquire with lasting diligence, and perhaps then I will have the good fortune to become a small branch of my country's glory." -Announcing F.Liszt's "homecoming" concert that took place on May 1, 1823 in Pest.
And this:
"I may surely be allowed, in spite of my lamentable ignorance of the Hungarian language, to remain from my birth to the grave Magyar in heart and mind..." -Liszt's letter to Baron Antal Augusz, dated May 7, 1873 (PBUS, p.160)
Sir, tell me plainly, are you calling Mr. Liszt a liar? K. Lásztocska 19:39, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
As you do not seem able to put one end and find an agreement to the issue of Liszt's nationality, I propose you, once more, my mediation : Liszt was an Austro-Hungarian or, if you prefer Musil's concept, a Kakanian. Actually, his mother was a German from bohemia, and his father a magyarised German. Then, as the Austro-Hungarian civilization, Liszt stands as a product of a melting-pot of Mittle-Europa's cultures and civilizations. As others great Austro-Hungarian figures, Liszt is a francophile who put Paris at the very center of his universe. And, as the anonymous scholar focuses on, Liszt has a great respect for the imperial family.
P.S. I would appreciate you to read my remarks (please, scuse my english which may sound strange)
Yours Sincerely
Alexander Doria 19:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree with that--"Austro-Hungarian" isn't really a nationality, more like an unfortunate turn of history. But then I guess I'm not 100% neutral when it comes to the Habsburgs. :) Merci anyway, Alexander. K. Lásztocska 20:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
In fact the Austro-Hungarian empire wasn't really , like the British colonialist empire, an artificial and arbitrary construction. As the Musil's roman, the man without qualities, or the analysts of the Hungarian historian Fetjö show it, an Austro-Hungarian national spirit existed, at an embryonic state, before the collapse of the Habsbourg's empire. This spirit could have the following caracteristics : cosmopolitanism (which include francophilie), elitism, and love for culture and arts. You will agree with me that Liszt possesses all those caracteristics. Besides, in Liszt's time, Austria dosn't stand as the owner of Hungaria (it was the Habsbourgs), but only a geographic expression. He didn't only became an Austro-Hungarian by a turn of History. Anyway my ambition is to settle yours problems, not to create others. Then, if you find my mediation a little shaky, forget it!
Yours Sincerly
Köszönöm, Làsztocska (I feel cosmopolitan myself)
Monsieur Doria 16:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
With you, I, and the anonymous scholar we've got three different conceptions of Nation. In your point of view, Liszt is an Hungarian because he wanted to be one : you believe in an elective Nation as the French philosopher Ernest Renan who once said "La nation est un plébiscite de tout les jours" — which means that a nation exist only because people want to . In Anonymous Scholar's vision, nation is a racial concept : Liszt has German ancestor, then he is German (he joins Herder's theories). Finally in my mediation, I considered that people belongs to a nation because they have a specific way of living, and a particuliar collective spirit. To be neutral, the article on Franz Liszt should develop those three viewpoints.
Jó estét Lásztocska (What do you think of my Hungarian speaking?)
Monsieur Doria 19:43, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Once again, very well put. :) I can't believe I didn't think of that before--that instead of just flat-out stating LISZT WAS HUNGARIAN or LISZT WAS GERMAN or whatever, we could just "teach the controversy" as it were. We did that on Sándor Petőfi: after some heated edit warring and battling citations over whether he was ethnically all-Slovak or half-Serb, we decided: duhhh, let's just say "some believe him to be of entirely Slovak ancestry, other sources claim he was half-Serbian." And problem solved. :)
You're basically correct in your analysis of my concept of nationality. For the most part I do agree with your Mr. Renan. I also like your viewpoint about the "national character" and specific way of living, that's also quite important. I have little patience for racial theories--there is of course some place for them (blood of the ancestors and all), but generally I find such definitions of nationality unhelpful, imperceptive, usually obnoxious and often harmful. In Hungary, I'm sure you know, there have been heated debates over "Who is a Hungarian?" for practically as long as the nation has existed, and they show no sign of coming to any conclusion anytime soon. It's all very interesting. :)
Oh, BTW, te nagyon jól beszelsz magyarul. :) K. Lásztocska 20:15, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm glad that we come to a compromise . I doubt that A.S. will agree with it and, frankly, I don't care: my mediation was neutral and disinteressed (I stand both Germanophile and Magyarophile and I'm a Frenchman: I haven't any bias on Liszt's nationality) and you accept it with an open mind. Then I propose to all Liszt's contributors to make a chapter on Liszt's nationality in that way (I will do the same thing in the French version) :
Szervusz/Salut/I/(no German translation)
Messire Alexander Doria, roi potentiel de France et de Navarre 19:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Sigh. And I thought you'd finally decided to leave us alone. I am getting very tired of your condescending attitude towards me, sir. I may not be an international scholar, and I have not yet written a doctoral dissertation, but I'm not stupid. And you don't have to explain the difference between "Hungarian" and "Magyar" to me.
I am defending Liszt also, since EVERYTHING I've read states that his Hungarian identity was important to him and was a PART of the individual person he was. Where have I ever denied that he had German blood, French ideas, Polish and French and German and Hungarian friends, etc. etc. etc. I have not. I even agreed with good Monsieur Doria up the page when he said that Liszt was an internationalist. You, on the other hand, are bending over backwards and leaping from one dubious conclusion to the next to "prove" your pet conviction, that Liszt was not even in the slightest bit Hungarian in any way at all. Did I mention how you don't have to explain the difference between "Hungarian" and "Magyar" to me?
As for Funerailles, again, I'm not stupid. I KNOW it's part of a larger cycle of works. Funerailles was written in response to the crushing of the Hungarian War for Independence in October 1849. Hence the military fanfare, the soldiers' funeral march, and how do you explain the fact that an early sketch of the work bore the inscription "Magyar"? (Remember, I know the difference between Hungarian and Magyar!)
As for the Hungarian Rhapsodies, do you think I'm stupid? I know they aren't based on Real Authentic Hungarian Folk Music--believe it or not I am quite well read on the subject of Magyar peasant music. EVERYBODY back then thought that Hungarian music was Gypsy music, even those about whose nationality there is no debate. And actually, there is a quote from Liszt somewhere (I will find its exact wording and a source when I have more free time, which means not today) that he had a fond dream of going to wander around the countryside looking for peasant music. Bartók read that with much interest. :)
I have no more time right now to waste on this argument. Auf wiedersehen. K. Lásztocska 12:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
You must have some late in the discussion, Anonymous Scholar. Actually I and Lásztocka (and there isn't the slightiest doubt that Mason will join us) came to the following compromise : Liszt's nationality depends on which conception one gets of Nation (everything concerning that point is developed higher). However, I undestand you believe Liszt to be a 'Kosmopolitaï' (citizen of the world) without any nationality or an European. This is a possibility. But, anyway, and despite all your knowledge, I don't think that we can exclude his attachment for Hungaria, and make him German, or French (even if I would be very happy to learn that he was my compatriot).
Yours sincerely and 'Danke' anyway
Monsieur Doria 13:19, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Which is his mother's maiden name - Lager or Lagen? According to this article it's Lagen, but according to the article of Anna Liszt, it's Lager. -- 1523 15:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone explain to me why this section is so titled? If not I'll change it to something else. Arniep 14:34, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Does anybody know if Liszt became a priest or something similar. There was a story that he was a ladies' man, and he promised each he will marry them, it never happened. In order to avoid the promise, he studied 4 years to be a priest and he was ordained in 1860's, even though he had kids, he was a widow.
- Old newspapers say he married to avoid marriage and I do not mean to Caroline, but to other ladies, it's possible this happened before he met Caroline. So what kind of 4 orders? Was this similar to a brother? I know he was religious but...
Ok, I know somebody who can give you that file, leave your email here for few days, I will get that person to email you. But if he had women, still, should not even be Abbe. What's AID?
I have added "Liszt's virtuosity and technical reforms" and "piano recital" under Musical style and influence to shed some more light on his pianistic reforms. gordonf238 21:13, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
this section refers to his Transcendental Studies and then says that Schumann said they were playable by 8 or 9 people at most. This is incorrect. Schumann was referring to Liszt's Douze Grandes Etudes, which were the much more difficult precursers to the 12 Transcendental Studies - which are much more managable pieces. 199.111.216.222 06:39, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Was he greatest or did he get his virtuosity from Chopin? And yea, one of the reasons he was abbot, he wanted to avoid marraige.
Hmm...it is to my knowledge that the relationship between Chopin and Liszt was love/hate, they were close friends, but they could be envious at times. I think it is far too strong to say despise here, though I am not going to change it without approval. Lots could be said about the relationship between Liszt and Chopin, though I don't know much about Schumann and Liszt o_O — Pmerrill
I think I'll go ahead and take out the names altogether, that's pretty harmless, thus making it: "Some of Liszt's contemporaries saw this kind of worship as vulgar and inappropriate, and eventually came to despise Liszt because of it." -- Pmerrill 20:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The relationship between Liszt and both Schumann and Chopin is fascinating. It's clear that Liszt held Schumann and Chopin in the highest possible regard and was a champion of their works. But the tension with Chopin, according to the biographies and letters I've read, seem to indicate personal reasons for it relating to an occasion when Liszt used Chopin's apartment for a rendezvous without telling him about it (a story that has never been definitely confirmed), though the two did patch up their friendship by Chopin's final years. Schumann considered Liszt a genius who squandered his talent in the pursuit of mere showmanship and seems genunely dismayed by what he saw as a betrayal of Art for the sake of flashy pyrotechnics; Clara Schumann loathed Liszt and that is well documented. Mhare40
Should there be an article named "Composer-Pianist"? It's become a very common phrase phrase, as they are truly a unique breed when compared to regular "concert pianists". There are lots of pianists that could fall under that category, who made a living as both a composer AND a pianist - Liszt, Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Scriabin, Marc-André Hamelin, etc. Is it worth its own article? -- Crabbyass 18:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
He was also a conductor. He actively promoted the music of Berlioz and Wagner during his Weimar years, and continued to conduct much of his own music for the remainder of his life. I'm open to the idea of mentioning both of these attributes in the opening paragraph Gordon Freeman 15:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Broken category- nono. More seriously: I know of no evidence that Liszt was a freemason at all. He was a lay Franciscan as of the mid-1850s and later took minor orders- not inconsistent but not the same as evidence, which is lacking. Schissel | Sound the Note! 21:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Okay now -- what's up with the photo of Liszt at the top of this article? It's probably the ugliest thing I've ever seen! I, of course, mean no offense at all to whoever uploaded it -- any photo is better than no photo -- and if anyone should be offended by my comments it should be solely the actual photographer.
In any event, can we do no better than this? I did a search on google and found many, many photos/portraits of the great Liszt. Now, what's most important in an encyclopaedia, naturally, is the written content, and I think the editors have done a pretty good job here. However, the photo is so unattractive that I actually find it distracting: I think we should really consider switching that photo for one of his more dignified portraits, such as this one from Britannica.
I would just do it myself, but I don't think I can just take it from that particular (encyclopaedic) site and upload it here. Can anyone advise me in better detail as to Wikipedia's policy on this? -- Todeswalzer| Talk 23:24, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Excellent! I've switched the old photo for the Lehmann portrait. Thanks for the help. -- Todeswalzer| Talk 00:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
LOL! I was about to upload that pic myself--was musing on what Hungary-related articles needed work, and remembered "Oh yeah, that picture of Liszt Ferenc was absolutely gross, he deserves better, I should put up that painting of him when he was young and dashing." And lo and behold, somebody already did! Köszönöm szépen (thanks very much) to whoever put that up! :) K. Lastochka 02:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
The invitation was at the instigation of Maria Pavlovna, if I remember, but Carl Alexander played a large role. There's also now an article on Hippolyte André Jean Baptiste Chélard if his contract (Cornell U Press edition of The Weimar Years, page 96) with Liszt (immediately contradicted by Grand Duke Carl Friedrich (sorry, wrote Carl Alexander- who was not yet in a position to contradict that...), followed by ill-will...) is relevant*... I do think that the roots of the growing ill-will which helped create the "Barber of Baghdad affair" are of interest if maybe not for a brief article like here.
Much more generally, since some of Walker's references and footnotes on other subjects are presently unverifiable (in locked libraries, for example), a person feels uneasy about using his book for reference material at times. Ways in which his has since been superceded by better research would be of great interest to me.
Please see the new order on the external sites and check the sites I have there deleted. There is another (commercial) site: pianosociety.com/cms/index.php?section=221 which contains an huge collection of cds (to buy online of course). My other comments are on the hystory page. Alegreen 08:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not quite sure where to post this, but I think every composer should have his/her most remarkable interpreters listed in some standard way. -- Sdistefano 02:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
For me, it's Alfred Brendel, hands down. Listen to his recording of Annees de Pelerinage (Italy), he takes you to heaven and hell in the Dante Lecture like no other. Words don't do justice.. FRM SYD 08:58, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
patently untrue statement that his first language was Slovak removed (it was actually German), and unusual statement the veracity of which I seriously doubt removed from article and pasted here pending verification.
Here is the weird statement:
He was fascinated by the pre-Hungarian history of Slovakia, he dedicated Slavino slavno Slaveni (Let's Celebrate Famous Slavs) to St. Cyril and Methodius citation needed.
Anyone heard of this before?!?! K. Lástocska 20:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
The article currently states:
So then the question, Why no Opus numbers? If anyone knows the answer, I'd be very interested. (It might also be useful to explain in the article why the numbers are no longer used.) -- Todeswalzer| Talk 00:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
“ | Indeed, Liszt is frequently credited with re-defining piano playing itself, and his influence is still visible today. | ” |
This seems a little POV to me (if not the entire sentence, then at least the "indeed" part). I tried tweaking it, but it doesn't sound quite right any other way. (I didn't save the changes for that reason.) — The still-Esperanzan $PЯINGrαgђ Always loyal! 01:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I just removed this sentence:
He always used the German version Franz, never the Hungarian version Ferenc.
for the simple reason that it's actually pretty hard to tell. He was born as Franciscus, his parents called him Franzi, the Germans and Austrians called him Franz, the French called him either Franz or Francois, the Hungarians called him Ferenc...and he didn't help us poor confused saps out one bit by almost invariably signing his name as simply "F. Liszt." :) K. Lásztocska 01:56, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion the twofold advertising of Alan Walker’s Liszt is contradicting the required Wikipedia neutrality of point of view. Notwithstanding Walkers celebrity his three volumes are containing lots and lots and lots of errors and mistakes many of which have been refuted in subsequent Liszt research. Walker's books about Liszt are written from an extremely restricted kind of point of view, which means that everything Liszt did or is supposed to have done must have been admirable to the highest point, whereas all contemporaries with alternate opinions could only have been jealous (Ferdinand Hiller), have had paranoia (Princess Wittgenstein) or have been in some other kinds ill (Robert Schumann, Comtesse d'Agoult, Olga Janina and many others). In order to gain neutrality there should be added references to other books. (The Liszt biography of Serge Gut for example is comparatively excellent.) If someone really likes to get into contact with the personality of Liszt and his life, reading his own letters (published up to a huge amount) and playing his music will be the best way after all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.192.232 ( talk) 15:37, 16 February 2007 (UTC).
Re: "all contemporaries with alternate opinions..." Well, I must mention that Schumann WAS in fact mentally disturbed, Comtesse d'Agoult may not have been disturbed strictly speaking but she certainly had a melancholic personality, and as for Janina...she was completely nuts, and no one disputes that. :) I also understand your point about Walker's bias, but it must be remembered that basically, his books were probably the first real, serious, scholarly bio of Liszt (i.e. not based primarily on rumors, 19th-century tabloid sensationalism, romans a clef, and popular legends.) Certainly Mr. Walker may have erred at certain points, but his three volumes are still a very important and valuable resource. As M A Mason says, if you find factual errors by all means, correct them. But please do not dismiss the usefulness and significance of Walker's books (especially the corrected editions) because you don't approve of his admiration of Liszt.
K. Lásztocska
14:53, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
80.145.221.5 18:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
No no, you're right of course. Who am I? Just a stupid little student. You're a scholar. You certainly know more about this than I do--I'm not being sarcastic at all, I'm being completely serious. I apologize for being a snob and sticking my nose into things I know nothing about--I liked Walker's books, and I found them well-researched and convincing, but I am hardly a scholar of music history--hell, I'm not even in conservatory yet. So thank you, Anonymous Scholar, for reminding me that there are things I know nothing about and should stay out of. (Still not being sarcastic, this is completely sincere even though it might sound snide.) Wikipedia can do that to people, can convince even idiots, dilletantes and charlatans like me that they're experts. I am not an expert and as such should not be editing this article. Liszt deserves better than to have his article spoiled by a stupid little girl. (Regarding Schumann though, didn't he die in a mental institution? I didn't think there was any dispute that he went nuts toward the end of his life.) K. Lásztocska 23:48, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
80.145.1.161 09:55, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Could someone who has any knowledge of IPA provide a transliteration of Franz and Ferenc Liszt? It's a pretty glaring omission in the article.
I know the pronunciation of Liszt, but would Franz be like 'Frans', as if it were something belonging to someone called Fran, 'Fran's apple' if you see what I mean. Or would it be more like 'Frants'? And is the end of Ferenc the same as with French, 'Ferench', or more like 'Ferenk'? I have a feeling it's 'Frants' and 'Ferenk', but I'm not sure enough to have a go at the IPA myself. M A Mason 01:13, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
"Ferenc" is actually pronounced more like "Ferentz", I don't know German very well but pretty sure Franz is just how it looks. ("long A" sound btw...like "Frahnz") K. Lásztocska 15:35, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
According to Lizt's own statement in his later years Thalberg had been much more succesful in Paris than Liszt himself. Thalberg was also much more succesful in Italy and in England. In spring 1841 after two concerts of Thalberg in Vienna it was said that he was the real leading pianist of the time. Thalberg was admired by Robert Schumann who met him in October 1838 in Vienna, by Clara Wieck/Schumann who played works of him up to 1847, by Felix Mendelssohn Bartholdy, by Hector Berlioz, by Giaccomo Meyerbeer, by Giaccomo Rossini, by Ferdinand Hiller and many many others. To give some examples concerning the money which was earned by Liszt and Thalberg in their concerts Thalberg gave his first own concert in Paris on April 16, 1836. For that concert he got 10000 Francs. Liszt giving concerts in Lyon at the same time got 500 Francs for one concert. In spring 1842 Thalberg gave two concerts in Paris for which he got 12000 Francs and 13000 Francs. Liszt in the beginning of 1846 was happy for an offer to give two concerts in Paris for which he would get altogether 15000 Francs. While it was said that the compositions of Liszt were poor the compositions of Thalberg were liked and played in all Europe. If it is sayed that the compositions of Thalberg were mostly forgotten up to today it would be correct but the same goes for the vast majority of the compositions of Liszt. It would be difficult in fact to find artists who were not delighted by the music of Thalberg in the time around 1840. Liszt with his struggle against Thalberg was an exception of the rarest kind. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.102.54 ( talk) 10:31, 17 February 2007 (UTC).
Liszt was not the first composer who made piano arrangements of vocal and instrumental scores. There were thousands of arrangements made by many, many other composers and in a long time (several centuries) before Liszt. For his arrangements of Beethoven's 5th, 6th and 7th sinfonies Liszt took a piano arrangement for four hands by Czerny by the way. There were piano arrangements of the sinfonies by Hummel, Kalkbrenner and others in that time. Liszt's arrangements of the 5th and the 6th sinfonies were published in March 1840 and they were not succesful. Without minor exceptions they are hardly ever played today. The same goes for the vast majority of his song transcriptions notwithstanding the beautiful music Liszt made in many of them.
Liszt's letter to his mother mentioning his "Methode" is not from November but from October 19, 1835. Since it was a methode to be used by the students in Geneva and there were not many greatest pianists who ever lived among them it would have been a rather bad methode if it could really provide "an invaluable insight into the playing style of one of the greatest pianists who ever lived". There is some kind of known methode by Liszt. It is called "Technische Studien" and has been published in three volumes by Editio musica, Budapest. From a practical kind of point of view you could take Alfred Cortot's methode as well. Better results will be gained when using Czerny's Schule des Virtuosen which was studied by Hans von Bülow in his early Weimar years.
In the diary of Orlando Parry there are the following remarks concerning the concerts given by the group around Lavenu in Dublin: "At 2 this Morning (It is meant the afternoon of January 7, 1841.) 4th concert here, took place at Rotunda as usual. Bad attendance, only about 160 (...) Everything as flat as dish water - no applause, no nothing." and: "5th concert here. It was the Anacreontic Society 2nd Concert, but given in the small room of the Rotunda or Rotundo as they print it here. It was not quite so full as I had anticipated (400) (...) Liszt & Rudersdoff played a piece "Sonata of Beethoven" - 20 minutes long! 'twas dreadful!". In fact the "4th" concert was their first and the "5th" concert their second concert in Dublin. (They had attendend three concerts of other artists the days before.) The "dreadful" sonata should have been the Kreutzer Sonata. After having given two concerts in Limerick they returned to Dublin on January 12th (120 miles!) where they gave two further concerts on January 12th and 13th. It was only the concert on January 13th, a concert of the Philharmonic Society, where they had an audience of at least 1200 people. (The diary of Parry has been published in the Liszt Society Journal in 1981-82.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.162.45 ( talk) 11:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC).
I cannot understand what is exactly meant when saying Liszt would have revolutionized piano technique. At present state there is nothing more to be read that Liszt did something new which was new because it was new but nobody can telll what it was. (For some reasons I am just remembering an old picture which shows Liszt playing a four handed Sonata by Chopin with his left foot only but this was a caricature of course.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.112.116 ( talk) 10:30, 24 February 2007 (UTC).
Liszt brought piano technique to a whole new level. He had (by all accounts) an absolutely unbelievable virtuoso technique himself, characterized mostly by complete freedom (finger independence--he practiced his Czerny) and great expressiveness. He used that technique to revolutionary musical ends. As far as I know he was the first to treat the piano like an orchestra: listen to some of the Transcendentals, the Hungarian Rhapsodies, even the Annees de Pelegrinage, a lot of them are very "symphonic" in scope and style. (Then of course there's the famous story about him playing his transcription of the Symphonie Fantastique immediately after it had been played by the full orchestra, and apparently Liszt brought the house down, making an even stronger impression with just two hands on a keyboard than had been made by the entire orchestra!) I'm not a very good pianist myself and haven't played much Liszt, so I can't be very specific at the moment, but IMHO the "symphonic" thing is one of his most important contributions. (Of course he also, like Paganini, just wrote such damn difficult pieces that he ended up raising the overall level of technical virtuosity among the next generation of pianists.) K. Lásztocska 14:45, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
In order to be consistent as well as directing the reader's associations ("Les cloches de Genève" is by Liszt whereas "The Bells of Geneva" might be by Richards.) not only some but all of Liszt's works should be called with original titles in original languages. So the "Piano Sonata in B minor" should be "Klaviersonate in h-Moll" and the "Transcendental Etudes" should be "Etudes d'exécution transcendante". The "Etude in twelve Exercises" should be "Etude en douze exercises". The "March to the Scaffold" should be "Marche au supplice". (Liszt arranged all five movements of the Symphonie fantastique.) The "Divertissement on the Cavatina "I tuoi frequenti palpiti" from Pacini's La Niobe" should be "Divertissement sur la Cavatine de Pacini (I tuoi frquenti palpit)" according to the Haslinger edition. (It was composed in autumn 1835 and revised in spring 1838. According to the Latte edition, published in October 1836, there may have been a previous version for piano and orchestra but nothing has come to light of it.) The "Hungarian Rhapsodies" should be "Rhapsodies hongroises". (The animated cartoons have nothing to do with Liszt at all, may they have been funny as well.) The "Ballade No. 2 in H-Moll" should be "2. Ballade in h-Moll", the "Sinfonic poems" should be "Sinfonische Dichtungen" or "Symphonische Dichtungen" and so on.
You're not disturbing anyone, new perspectives and information are always welcome. :) My invitation to contribute here still stands, but if you don't want to that's fine. As for the language thing, I see your point--my point, which I probably didn't articulate very well, was that we should just use the names that are most commonly used in English-speaking countries. On the other hand, that would be a major pain to try and count up the # of uses of each language in every published edition, so I'll defer to you on this one. :) K. Lásztocska 17:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
He's apparently some big Liszt scholar--all the rest of us are schlubs and know-nothing charlatans by comparison. K. Lásztocska 01:18, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
80.145.0.225 11:29, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Good grief, is it THAT important? If we say "Piano Sonata in B minor" instead of "Klaviersonate in h-moll" it means that we are presenting some sort of " McDonald's" version of Liszt? Maybe you are not entirely familiar with the function of Wikipedia. It is not intended to elevate public taste, nor is it intended to be an arbiter of philosophical debates. (It is also not intended to turn ordinary English-speaking barbarians into nice civilized, cultured German speakers. :) ) It is intended as a compendium of knowledge and a source of free information. Most people using the English Wikipedia, if they are looking for information on the aforementioned sonata, will type "piano sonata in b minor" into the search engine, not "klaviersonate in h-moll."
My dear Anonymous Scholar, I must respectfully admit that I am beginning to find your posts ever so slightly unhelpful. You have confined yourself to posting big detail-ridden scholarly mini-theses on the talk page, but have not edited the article itself. If the article is really such a god-awful mess, well then, that's what the "edit this page" button is for. And if you have no interest in contributing to the article, then why the voluminous talk-page outpouring of titles, facts, impressive words, and making the rest of us ordinary Joes and Janes look like total idiots?
(By the way, stepping back from this particular issue I must briefly address all the various academics, scholars, professors and other folks who whine about how bad Wikipedia is and what an unreliable source of information it is. "Wikipedia is evil!" they cry, "we found mistakes!!" Well, my response to that is just what I said above: that's what the little "edit this page" button is for. You find a mistake, you fix it, and the Wiki gets that much better. OK, rant over. :) K. Lásztocska 23:16, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I leave it to those actively working on this article to decide whether to use this but Oscar Levant remarked, "The later piano works of Liszt were harmonically so inventive and new that they were the forerunner of the Impressionist school that Debussy founded." [Oscar Levant, The Unimportance of Being Oscar, Pocket Books 1969 (reprint of G.P. Putnam 1968), p. 129–130. ISBN 0-671-77104-3.] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jmabel ( talk • contribs) 07:33, 3 March 2007 (UTC).
Having read in your article that there is a letter Liszt's to his mother which begins in faltering Hungarian, and after an apology continues in French, I'd like to see it. Since it is apparently missing in the new edition of Liszt's correspondence with his mother (ed. Klara Hamburger, Eisenstadt 2000) I have got to search it eslewhere. So, please tell me where you found it. 80.144.195.184 18:05, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Having learnt that you are preferring doing corrections without listening to arguments before, I did some of them in your list of Liszt's works. For getting tired now I'll take a break. So please don't be angry that there have been some mistakes to be found left. Concerning that language problem I took the point of the view, that it will surely a better task for you finding out apropriate English titles instead of the titles given until now. (Anonymus Scholar) 80.145.10.217 10:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
The list with the selected works is already rather long. It will be much longer when adding some of the most important choral works and some others to it. For this reason I strongly suggest to build extra pages for the piano works, symphonic works, choral works etc. The extra pages may contain links leading to the single works. At present state some aspects are totally missing. An example is Liszt as editor of piano works by Beethoven, Schubert, Weber, Viole and others. Giving a remark to your article's principal style again (I know that you do not like it.), it is at present state looking like an advertising page. With such kind of a view, a life such as the life having been lived by Liszt can in no sense be understood at all. Liszt himself had a much more sceptical view at himself, and there have been good reasons for him thinking in that way. To give a single hint, his motto in his youth as it is known from one of his letters was: "I prefer being not happy and rich, but being happy and poor." He was not touring for 10 years just for the fun of it but for the purpose to get as much money as possible with his concerts. It was only in his later years (starting in the end of 1861) that he changed his philosophy and in his last years he was subjectively feeling being not happy and poor altogether. 85.182.47.210 19:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Concerning Robert le diable: The exact date of the concert in Hamburg was taken from an announcement in the "Hamburgische Correspondent" (a German paper). The further details have been told by Liszt himself (according to Liszt it had been "ein halber Misserfolg"); see the diary of his pupil Carl Lachmund. (There is an old edition in German and a rather new edition in English of it.)
Concerning the Hexameron: The fact that the variation by Czerny is the only really difficult one will easily be verified when looking into the score. It is besides my own experience, having played quite a lot of Liszt's piano music myself, and it is shared by all people known to me, who had also played it. The other fact, that Liszt skipped the variations by Czerny and by Chopin in many cases, is known from announcements and reviews of his concerts. (He made two own variations instead by the way, but it is not known whether he ever played them.) Giving some examples: In an announcement for the concert on February 18, 1838, in Milan, the variation by Czerny is missing. In an announcement for the concert on January 26, 1840, in Pressburg, it is explicitly to be read, that the Hexameron would contain only variations by Thalberg, Liszt, Herz and Pixis. From a review in the AmZ ("Leipziger Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung") No. 13 from March 1840, p.261-62 it is known that Liszt played the same selection in Prag. According to the AmZ No. 14 from April 1840, p.299 the variation by Czerny had been omitted in the concert on March 30, 1840 in Leipzig, and - so far as I can remember at moment - it is known from a review by Schumann that the variation by Chopin had been omitted as well. In this style I could go on, giving a very long list. 84.61.93.253 19:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Sir, I do respect your knowledge on the subject of Franz Liszt, please be under no illusion about that. You clearly do have a very scholarly background and have probably done more research about Liszt than I could ever hope to do. I do not doubt your credentials as a scholar, nor do I doubt your intentions in coming here and putting accross your point of view.
I have to speak my mind though, and say that it is starting to get tiresome coming on here to read essays about topics which are in no way to do with the article. This talk page is not a forum. If the nationality or whereabouts of Liszt on a certain date are to be debated, this is not the place, and there are plenty of music forums where this can be done. It is well accepted in mainstream scholarship that Liszt was Hungarian. I have never seen an article, website, publication of any sort that states otherwise. To say otherwise amounts to original research, which is not allowed here.
You have shown by your edits to the list of works section that you can be a very valuable contributor and a great asset to the article, and the project in general. Coming here and writing your essays not only wastes your own time, but the time of those reading it, but especially K. Lásztocska who has very patiently read and responded to all your comments, arguments and indeed accusations.
For your own sake and that of the article, let's spend time improving it; not bickering over what amounts to minor points which in the grand scheme of things are irrelevant. Here we should be talking about the article, and controversial subjects there, not what Liszt had for breakfast on May 8th 1840 or something similarly rediculous. Yours respecfully, M A Mason 23:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Dear friends, it may be allowed for me giving some principle words to some problems concerning your article and to this at the same time adding, that you will please not feel being offended as persons. A first problem is concerning the language. When taking the point of view that everything being said about Liszt has to be said in English and nothing else, and when this point of view has been taken to the utmost extreme, so that even Liszt's own letters and others of his private materials are only to be looked at if having been translated to English before, an understanding of his personality and his life is not only hard but certainly impossible. Liszt research is an international business today, and those who are interested in learning some of the results must inevitably try to get a fluent reading in different languages for it.
A second problem is that you are to a very high degree infected by Alan Walker's Liszt, reading his books as if they were parts of the Holy Bible, and I presume that it will be the same with many readers of your English Wikipedia article concerning Liszt. But the juice which you were drinking with this is nothing more than a picture of Liszt which may have been of interest some 60 years ago. There are all of the old stories concerning the greatest pianist of all times, the Hungarian Liszt and all the other stuff to be found. As a result, your Wikipedia Liszt has apparently been a person who was living for nearly 75 years, and in the last 25 of them doing nothing more but preparing himself for his death. From Liszt's own point of view in his youth he had not much fun doing his virtuoso job but he did it as good as he could, thereby thinking: "I do not mind the hell of critics and aesthetics when giving my concerts because I have got to earn money, and much of it." (I was citing from one of his letters.) Besides this, there was a hidden "ligne intérieure" ("inner line"), and following this line, Liszt arrived at a point at last where he could compose his real masterworks. From this "ligne intérieure", having been the more important and interesting part of him, there is nearly nothing at all to be found in your article at present state. When trying to calculate the moon's way around the earth in a similar way, you would surely conclude that because of the forces of gravity the moon is always falling straight down to the earth.
With the purpose of helping you, I gave a plenty of information and explanations in your talk page, and I corrected this and that in your article besides. But your imagination, it would have been sufficient just clicking at the edit button instead and after some minutes it would everything have been done, is really naïf. When trying to correct everything, my task would have been nothing less than writing the entire article myself. With every single word I had to fight against offended feelings of the one or the other person being until now with all strength of his heart bound to a picture of Liszt which has in Liszt research died a long time ago and has only survived in true scholarly masterworks of the Alan Walker kind. Liszt himself was until his end fighting against it, and he did it apparently in vain. Having already done a hard job until now, it is my pleasure, reading in comments that I am arrogant and mean, have eaten French potatoes and have several further qualities which are altogether also very nice. Concerning the length of some of my postings, there is not more to be said about it, that it was in reality a minimum in order to show from which sources my positions came. It is easy to say: "A. B. is surely the best Liszt player of all times!", to say to this: "No, it is C. D. instead!" and to say to those: "It is neither nor, but it is the most famous E. F., as everybody knows!" If it is this kind of debating which you like, please do it, but for my taste there are some things in the world being more interesting for filling my own time with them. I shall keep trying to help you, but the really strenuous task, writing the article, will keep being yours. 80.145.1.82 15:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
The person, who was thinking that there would have been a "ligne intérieure" and it would have been important, happens to have been a certain Franz Liszt, and it is known from some of his letters. (see PBUS, p.51, for example) The "ligne intérieure" is connected with the genesis of compositions like the Harmonies poétiques et religieuses, so please take this as a hint. So far as you are assuring not to be brainwashed by Alan Walker it is even the better. And since we agree that Liszt had not much fun doing his virtuoso job, please write it in your article and give examples for it. You will find lots of materials in his book about Chopin.
The debating of the nationality question was on March 5 put from my side to an end, and it was done in perfectly tolerant terms. After this I did nothing else but answering to the questions and outbursts from some other side, and I did it after having read in the Wikipedia help that this would be regarded as being polite. Your argument concerning the nationality question in the German Wikipedia Liszt is in parts correct, but it was not me who made that article in its former state. It has been my understanding of Wikipedia politeness not to change everything at a time. If you have a new look to its present state you will see that something has changed in the text. In order to completely remove the nationality hint, some patience will be needed. A Wikipedia article does not belong to a single person but it is works in progress and it is not perfectly ready yet. If you will click to the German talk page (It is really dull in comparison with yours after my entering it.) you may find that an Austrian person has complained. In reaction to this I took the name "Ferenc" away.
From my perspective, your assumption that a person must in all cases be associated with a single nationality is obviously wrong and it is even wrong in our days. There are people who are at the same time legally associated with different countries (some of the Turks living in Germany for example). Then there are people who are living in some country but who are regarded as to be associated to a different nationality. It is the case of the "Russland Deutschen" ("Russian Germans") who are subjectively feeling being Germans and are in an ethnic sens regarded as being Germans and have full rights after having come to Germany. At last there are people who changed their nationality. (Schönberg, Rachmaninoff, Einstein and Thomas Mann for example) Liszt will be taken at best when looking to his living and his music. From this point of view it is obvious that he was a European international artist, and I think that it is much more said about him than only saying he was Hungarian. Looking at him as a teacher, the same result is gained. In comparison with this, the fact that he was born in a place Raiding which was in 1811 a legal part of Hungary is to be regarded as having been per accident. It had in former times belonged to Turkey and it is today belonging to Austria after the people living in the "Burgenland" had voted for this. The Hungary of the time of Liszt's living does no longer exist. Taking the words "Austria" and "Hungary" with present state meanings, and there is no reason for doing it in a different way, Liszt was a person born in Austria and nothing lse. Liszt himself during his long life said this and that and the meaning of it as well as the reasons because of which he did it must be scrutinized in every single case. This is not a solitary opinion of mine but it is the collective experience of all prominent Liszt scholars with whom I was talking. (Alan Walker was not among them.) In order to gain a single inch in Liszt research it is a fighting of the hardest kind afforded. Writing an encyclopedia article about Liszt is certainly a very strenous task. 80.144.103.17 10:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
An opinion Béla Bartók's from his famous essay Liszt-Probleme ("Problems concerning Liszt") may be allowed to be heard. Bartók's opinion was shared by Margit Prahács in a note to Liszt's letter to Baron Augusz from May 7, 1873. (see PBUS, p.360)
In other words, Liszt's own point of view when trying to support a "Hungarian" music was and is until today regarded as having been absolutely wrong and of no use at all. In contrast to Bartók's position it is known from Lina Ramann's diary that the same point of view was already taken by Hungarians in 1882. Liszt was not only attacked for a supposed anti-Semitism but in the same time from the opposite side as well. 80.145.58.129 10:36, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
....and what's your point? K. Lásztocska 13:07, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
HAHAHahahahaha now you are even telling me that what I feel/hear/think when I listen to Liszt is the "wrong" thing! I know this essay of Bartók's, I know Bartók's life and work quite well. What Bartók and Kodály were saying about Gypsy music at that time was very important, as until then everybody, Hungarians included, thought that Hungarian and Gypsy music were one and the same. But B and K took the other extreme, that Gypsy music isn't Hungarian AT ALL. Well, surely in origin it is not Hungarian, but it has become such an important and integral part of Hungarian culture (especially urban culture--gypsy bands in coffeehouses etc.) From my perspective that type of Gypsy music which Liszt used in those notorious Rhapsodies is Hungarian, just not Magyar. As much as I adore Bartók, I have to diagree with him a bit as regards Hungarian Gypsy music. Saying Gypsy music cannot ever be considered Hungarian would be like saying jazz isn't really American since its roots are in Africa. Gypsy music was quite literally the folk music of the cities. K. Lásztocska 14:22, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Right, there we go--that's it. :) I still think the Rhapsodies are Hungarian also, because that's what they were intended to be, but yes, primarily just Liszt. :) I guess Liszt is like a gypsy, improvising on Hungarian melodies...:) By the way, did we actually just agree on something and come to a reasonable conclusion?! ;) K. Lásztocska 18:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Leave me alone. K. Lásztocska 16:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
In case that you like to add a little anecdote to your article you may take the following one which I found in an essay "Liszt et Thalberg" by Ernest Legouvée in the Parisian Ménestrel from May 11, 1890. In April 1842 Thalberg had given two concerts in Paris and Chopin had given one. Legouvée wrote to this in a review for the Parisian Gazette musicale: "When the eternal question will arise again who was the greatest pianist of today, was it Liszt or was it Thalberg, it will come from the public's side the same answer as the answer given by me: It is Chopin!" According to Legouvée he had been visited by Thalberg on the next day. Thalberg shook hands with him and said: "Bravo! Your article is nothing more but only just." In contrast to this, Liszt who had arrived in Paris some weeks later was heavily angry, refusing to talk to Legouvée for a long time.
Liszt had in June 1842 a Russian pupil Wilhelm von Lenz who later wrote a book about the golden age of the virtuosos' times. (You can find it in the bibliography given by A. Walker.) In the chapter about Chopin there are astonishing aggressions contra Chopin to be found, and it is hardly to be doubted that the aggressions had come in main parts from Liszt's side. There is a last chapter about Adolph Henselt, living in St. Petersburg, by the way, and from the point of view taken by Lenz it was Henselt who was to be regarded as the true champion of all of them. 80.144.122.132 11:01, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to give a further hint to our French colleague (as well as to all of the others of course), and I am thinking of R. Wagner's essay "Das Publikum in Zeit und Raum" ("The public in time and space") from 1878. It is mainly concerning Liszt's Dante symphony (dedicated to Wagner himself) but it is altogether an essay about Liszt as a composer in general. Wagner reminded of the two decades around the year 1830 and of the eminent elevation of the superior minds of the Parisian society in those times. Liszt was surrounded by them in his youth, and it was Wagner's opinion, that Liszt had imagined an assembly of persons of this kind as an audience when composing his Faust and Dante. Some days before Wagner wrote this, he had in his Villa Wahnfried in Bayreuth heard the Dante symphony played by Liszt himself, and it is known from Cosima's diary that Wagner was very much admiring it. The "Neudeutsche Schule" ("New German School") is therefore turning out to have been French after all.
Looking at Liszt on October 22, 1849, it can be read in a long letter which he wrote to Jean Francois Fétis on that day, that he was busily thinking of his Symphonic poem Ce qu'on entend sur la montagne after Victor Hugo, a French sujet. (I am relying on a copy of the letter which I got from the Goethe- and Schiller Archive in Weimar.) Liszt and Hugo had been close friends in the Saint Simonists' times of the early 1830s. In a long letter which Liszt wrote to his mother on October 22, 1849, he was as well busily thinking of the money he had deposed in Eisenstadt and in the bank of Rothschild in Paris. Unfortunately there is in both letters not a single word concerning Hungary to be found with the only exception of the money in Eisenstadt, so that I cannot precisely tell you what Liszt was presently thinking in this respect. But I can assure that he was gratefully thinking of the new cigars which he got as a birthday gift. 80.144.122.132 11:03, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I totally agree with you when you say that Liszt wasn't ONLY an Hungarian. He was also French, German, and maybe Italian. But I don't follow you when you say that he wasn't Hungarian AT ALL. Actually, Chopin, more than Liszt, stood as a difficult case for nationality: he was a perfect Franco-Polish (his mother was Polish, his father French, he spend one part of his life in Poland, and the other in France). Even though the French government doesn't blame Poland when the latter built an airport in Warsaw with Chopin's name. Why? Because it was undeniable that Chopin see himself as a Polish (he wrote so much "Polonaises"). I think that Lizst's issue for nationality is the same: did Austria react when Hungaria created musical institutions with Liszt's name? No because he wrote 12 Magyar Dalok, 19 Hungarian Rhapsodies, a lot of Csardas and Ungarish Romanzero, and transcriptions of Hungarian composers (Hunyadi Laszlo's Opers for instance). Anyway, it's also true that Liszt never knew hungarian speaking, that he behaved as a native French during the twenty years he spent in my country, and that he almost only spoke German from his settlement in Weimar to his death. All that shouldn't be occured.
I believe, like you, that Liszt was a multi-faceted figure, and I developed this idea in the French article. Actually he was in the same time a churchman, an international pianist, an administrator in Weimar, and a Magyar (a Leslie Howard's anthology used the same system). The issue of Liszt's nationality only stood, for me, in the following terms: was he an Hungarian or a "Kosmopolitaï"? I'm glad that you developed more interesting outlets to this issue, but I think we should put one end to this controversy : do you agree with my compromise? And if you don't, what disturb you?
P.S. I once read an article from Fétis about the fact that Chopin was merely superior to Liszt in the "Gazette musicale de Paris", and I don't find it anymore. do you know what it could be?
Alexander Doria 14:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Since I got the impression that it might be difficult for you to get certain sources whereas it is easy for me, I shall give the sources from which the well known story of Funérailles being correlated with the death of the Hungarian Count Batthanyi on October 6, 1849, is used to be drawn. The sources are described in: Mueller, Rena Charin: Liszt’s „Tasso“ Sketchbook: Studies in Sources and Revisions, Ph. D. dissertation, New York University 1986. (Mueller's thesis was published on micro film. If you like to read it yourself you can get it from the library of a university and make an own copy from the micro film. Mueller's writing style is sometimes somewhat confuse, but the impression from reading her book is in in so far correct as Liszt was an utmost confuse person himself.) The pages 251-277 are concerning the genesis of the Harmonies poétiques et religieuses.
Concerning Funérailles I am looking at Mueller’s p.270f. According to this, there had been a sketch "Magyar" from which materials were taken for the later Funérailles. (I have never seen the sketch "Magyar" myself.) For the sketch "Magyar" there is not a single date given, so that nobody can tell in which time it was made. It is known from a letter Liszt's to Joachim Raff from December 1850 that Liszt wanted to finish his Harmonies poétiques et religieuses before returning from Bad Eilsen to Weimar in January 1851. It should contain 6 pieces, but not Funérailles. On the other hand it is known from a further source that in the second half of 1850 Liszt had made or planned pieces "Marche funérailles" and "Cantique d'amour" for his Harmonies poétiques et religieuses. It is the impression after this, that Liszt was still uncertain of the cycle's final conception, and since 1834 there had been lots (a dozen at least) of different conceptions before.
Coming to the supposed correlation between Funérailles and the events on October 6, 1849, the only source which was given by Mueller (and in all of the other books I read) is a reference to Peter Raabe's book "Liszts Schaffen" ("Liszt's works"), p.248. Looking at that book it is to be read:
This is absolutely everything which had come from Raabe’s side. Looking at "Br. VI, p.266" (It is a letter Liszt's to Princess Wittgenstein from 1870.) it turns out that no victims of the Hungarian revolution are mentioned at all. According to the letter the Hungarian minister Horvath had recited an old poem by Vörösmarty from 1840 in honour of Liszt, and Liszt had "responded with compositions like Hungaria, Funérailles and some others" to it, whatever this "responding" might have meant. (Alan Walker in his Liszt II, p.71-72, n.31, gives a reference to LLB, vol. 6, p.266 (i.e. "Br. VI, p.266") as well, but cautiously avoiding to tell what the reader of the letter will find.)
The only source for a connection between Funérailles and the events on October 6, 1849, is therefore a guess Peter Raabe's without any foundation in sources. Raabe's supposition, Batthanyi would have been the only victim of the Hungarian revolution is obviously wrong, so that the question of the meaning of Funérailles in 1853, when the cycle was published, is in all respects open. People in 1853 who bought and played it could not find a single hint pointing to Hungary in general or especially to October 6, 1849 (There was no title of the "Funérailles, October 1849" kind but only "Funérailles"), and no sources even of private kind existed from which they could get knowledge of it. So far as they had read Liszt's book about Chopin before (It was written 1850-51 and published 1851-52.), they had from its last chapter good reasons for the assumption that he was altogether thinking of the death of Felix Lichnowski and Chopin instead, and that it was for this reason that in October 1849 a new period in his own life had begun. (In Liszt's subjective reminding they had both died in one and the same year, as he wrote in his book about Chopin, although the dates in the real world had been quite different.)
The cycle was published in 7 parts, and Funérailles was altogether the 5th part and the 7th piece. Without explicit explanations (It would be very long.) I add to this as a last remark, that the numbers 5 and 7 in Liszt's works have an autobiographical importance of the highest degree and are in most cases pointing to him himself. Stating it even more explicit, the numbers are pointing to an imagination Liszt's of living together with the Countess d'Agoult again. (His idea concerning the numbers might have been that the name "Marie" had 5 and the name "d'Agoult" 7 letters.) 84.61.63.73 16:38, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I did some new brainstorming concerning Funérailles in the last days and especially tried to find out from which source the added title "October 1849" had come. In the editions which I saw until now it is not contained and even the New Liszt Edition made in Budapest gives only "Funérailles". But there are several books claiming that the subtitle "October 1849" was a part of Funérailles, so that I shall take this version now. My next idea was that "October 1849" is also the title of Heine's famous poem concerning the benighted Franz who remained unscathed while Hungary was bleeding to death, and the sabre of honour which was lying in the chest of drawers. It is known from Heine's letter to H. v. Campe from November 16, 1849, that the poem was made four weeks ago and afterwards (in the time of Liszt's birthday) circulating in copies in Paris. (It has 15 stanzas and only the 6th, 7th and 8th of them are concerning Liszt.) It was published in the No. for September 1850 of the "Deutsche Monatsschrift für Politik, Wissenschaft, Kunst und Leben." I put to this a written answer by Liszt from November 1875 given to Lina Ramann which can be found in her diary. After some remarks concerning other pieces of his Harmonies poétiques and religieuses Liszt wrote:
While the second sentence is apparently indicating that there had been something embarrassing in connection with the piece, the date 1850 is at first sight looking like a mistake made by Liszt. But from the sources which I gave some days ago the date is known to be correct because it was the second half of 1850 when Liszt composed or planned to compose Funérailles. The piece might therefore have been a part of a response to the poem by Heine which had been very angrily read by Liszt. He had to defend himself and to explain for which reasons he had not taken part in the events of the revolution in Hungary. In order to do this he wrote the last chapter in his book about Chopin. Felix Lichnowski is only mentioned at that place and there was no further connection between him and Chopin at all. Lichnowski was praised by Liszt in many respects, and afterwards Liszt wrote that he had lost all of his interest in things correlated with Lichnowski after his death. Since Lichnowski had been killed because of political reasons, the thing for which Liszt had lost his interest was politics. It could be given a letter by Liszt to Joachim Raff as a source in favour of this. The things are altogether suiting perfectly, so that the tragic event of 1850 concerning Hungary which was in November 1875 remembered by Liszt would have been the publication of the poem by Heine. After this we may arrive at the compromise that Liszt was in connection with Funérailles altogether thinking of Lichnowski and Chopin but in some respects of Hungary as well. 80.145.61.60 18:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Gentlemen of the Wiki, scholars and students, Lisztians and Brahmsians, Leipzigers and Weimarites, Florestans and Eusebiuses, Germans and Frenchmen and Magyars and Brits, pro- and anti-Alan Walker, progressive or reactionary, the words of the immortal Béla Bartók have recently been posted on this page to support one editor's point of view. I would like to offer, reproduced here verbatim, with no edits, elaborations or omissions, some more of Bartók's words concerning Liszt. This is, in full, a letter written by Bartók to the Budapest newspapers to summarize a speech he gave at the Hungarian Academy of Sciences. The letter is dated February 3rd, 1936, and may be found on page 246 of the English-language hardcover edition of Bartók's Letters.
K. Lásztocska 04:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I cannot see which new aspects are given with this posting. The citation in "Béla Bartòks opinion, part one", was not an opinion of a pro- or anti-Alan Walker editor. The immortal Bartòk's own words were given instead. Your paragraph "The third question (...)" is nothing else but a short summary of it.
80.145.61.60
18:27, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
The first paragraph is a perceptive comment on the public's reaction to Liszt, which I just found interesting. I might add that when Mr. Bartók (A.S., please get your accent marks right) mentions "lacking the capacity to see what is really essential" and instead being "unduly influenced by superficial elements," he could just as well have been talking about our debates here...just something for all of us to keep in mind.
The second paragraph, just an interesting tidbit. No real relevance here, just thought you guys might like reading it. I also was very conscious to copy the entire letter, even parts that might seem irrelevant, to avoid the common fallacy of taking things out of context.
The third paragraph, as Mason has already said, clarifies the issue of Hungarian/Gypsy/Hungarian-Gypsy music. Liszt's mistake concerning the origin of gypsy music was simply that, an honest mistake, and his use of music that everyone (Magyars included) considered "Hungarian" music is hardly evidence that he was not or did not consider himself Hungarian, even though we now know that Hungarian music is a very different thing. Why should we punish Liszt for not being Bartók?
The fourth paragraph needs no explanation, as its meaning should be perfectly clear. K. Lásztocska 19:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
The fact that the performance of the Clochette-fantasy was a complete fiasco is known from several sources. There is a remark in the French paper "Le Pianiste" from November 11, 1834, p.16. Then there is an answer given by Liszt to Lina Ramann from December 1876. "Ich spielte damals die Fantasie (eigentlich Variationen) mit Misserfolg in ein paar Concerten." To this comes a letter by Liszt to Jules Janin from May 1846 which is also stating the complete fiasco from November 1834. The letter has been published by Jaques Vier in: L’artiste – le clerc, p.145. 84.61.27.11 14:58, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
The place where Liszt has been born was "Reiding" according to his birth certificate. Liszt himself and all the rest of his family called it "Raiding". For example there is a letter by Adam Liszt to Count Eszterházy with the original handwritten date "Raiding 13. April 1820". Hungary was a kingdom in those times, and since 1741 the Hungarian King was the Austrian Emperor. In 1809 the Hungarians got an offer from Napoleon according to which Hungary should have become independent from Austria, but it was not accepted by them. 84.61.27.11 15:01, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Exactly. If the Hungarian people, rather than the Austrian nobles who ran the place back then, had been presented with an offer of freedom, they would have run to it with open arms. As for Raiding/Doborján, there is a convincing case that can be made either way, for once I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other. Maybe "Raiding (also called Doborjan)" or something like that? K. Lásztocska 00:59, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Franz Liszt/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
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This is an assessment of article Franz Liszt by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards ( WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described?
Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article.
Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)?
Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.)
Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references?
Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.)
This is mostly a very good biography. It seems to cover Liszt's life fairly thoroughly, and gives good coverage to personal, professional, performance, and composing activities. The most glaring defect in the article is already tagged: his legacy. While his student legacy is described in enough detail that it ought to be in a separate article, there is very little 20th-century appreciation -- are there any modern composers who credit Liszt as an influence? (ditto performers) Presumably many do, but a few choice quotes or names would go far here. A short section on Memorials noting the most important places and objects comemmorating him would also be welcome. (We know he died at Bayreuth; was he buried there?) The article is long enough as it is that more things can be split from it. I note that Life of Franz Liszt has been split out; this means the bio in this article can probably be shortened significantly. Each section of the bio probably ought to be shortened to about 2 medium paragraphs, 3 max. Liszt as Pianist (and Liszt as Teacher) could also be split (and possibly expanded then), with a shorter summary here. If editors want to move this article toward FA consideration, it will require more inline citations; parts are well-cited, but others are not. Article is B-class; legacy needs work. Magic ♪piano 16:50, 2 February 2009 (UTC) |
Last edited at 13:08, 7 November 2010 (UTC). Substituted at 20:26, 3 May 2016 (UTC)