As pointed out previously, there was a long series of discussions back in 2007 (documented in the Archives) involving many editors that reached a consensus paragraph that succinctly summarized the two viewpoints of Bacon's sexuality:
Recently there has been insistance on adding discussion of an article from Journal of Homosexuality and despite objections to adding more material to this paragraph, it has been repeatedly re-inserted. Now the further quote from Oxford Dictionary of Biography that states "While there is no certainty about Bacon's sexual orientation or identity, the likelihood that he may have been homosexual is undeniable" is being repeatedly added. I disagree with these repeated attempts to portray Francis Bacon as a homosexual. He had two love relationships with females (Marguerite & Elizabeth) that have been been written about by various authors, and he married a thrid - Alice Barnham.
If you want to know what Francis Bacon thought of homosexuality, then consider his personal conception of what would constitute an ideal society in his own words. Just as Thomas More wrote Utopia as his vision of an ideal society, in 1623 Bacon's aspirations and ideals were expressed in The New Atlantis. This was his creation of an ideal land where "generosity and enlightenment, dignity and splendor, piety and public spirit" were the commonly held qualities of the inhabitants of Bensalem. Franics wrote of "the faithful nuptial union of man and wife," regardless of alliances and positions. In his vision of his ideal society, homosexuality did not exist. He wrote: "As for masculine love, they have no touch of it, and yet there are not so faithful and inviolate friendships in the world as are there", and "there is not under the heavens so chaste a nation as this of Bensalem.". Arion 3x3 ( talk) 16:39, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. In a biographical article in an encyclopedia, presenting both sides of the homosexual controversy needs to be done dispassionately and without overemphasis. Secondary sources are helpful in such an endeavor. Otherwise this article will appear amateurish and trivial. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 19:39, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
The sentence that the "likelihood that he may have been homosexual is undeniable" doesn't even make sense. "Likelihood" implies possibility, "may have been" is dubious, and how that leads to the conclusion of "undeniable" is ridiculous. If you were a lawyer in a courtroom your entire case would be thrown out because the "likelihood" of anything that "may have been" and leads to "undeniable" is simply indefensible and incredulous. The entire sentence should be struck because it has no legs to stand on. Sage 1133 ( talk) 04:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
As someone pointed out last year, Francis Bacon's fame is due to his historical impact as a philosopher, Parliamentarian, scientist, essayist, lawyer and politician. Any speculation regarding his sexuality is irrelevant to his notoriety. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 22:09, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
I've been debating this issue in good faith and have taken great pains to present credible evidence of Bacon's homosexuality. The issue is relevant as it deals with his private life and personal relations and has been raised by historians so is an issue of interest to some; the character of the man as well as his works ( - incidentally the text referring to the 'relationship' with Margueritte has not been questioned by anyone in the same way as being 'relevant'!) I have approached this in an academic way, presenting arguments and citing reputable sources. But it's clear to me now that some of the material being used to refute the issue of homosexuality is bordering on the eccentric. The main text has a reference from Ross Jackson(Shaker of the Spear): first a novel and then a companion to the novel. I have found that Jackson is not even a historian. He has a Ph.D. in Operations Research (apparently the theory and practice of 'problem solving'). His books not only claim that Shakespeare's plays were written by Bacon (disputed by the majority of historians and critics - and indeed anyone who has read the plodding and heavy language used by Bacon in his verified writing); he claims Elizabeth I and Dudley were married - with Bacon as their child; that Bacon was a Rosicrucian; and that Bacon was the reincarnation of Plotinus and Plato. Now I think we're agreed that any wikipedia article needs to be of a high standard. Using Jackson to support any aspect of the text brings the whole article into serious disrepute. We haven't even been presented with the evidence Jackson supposedly uses against homosexuality? I would be grateful to actually see it. It seems absurd to say that because Bacon married Alice Barnham then that settles the case. I discovered this week (from the Du Maurier biography) that in 1603 Bacon indicated his desire to Lord Burghley to marry in order to counteract his waning influence at court, and the woman he had set his sights on (Alice) was 11 years old! We need to get a little serious with this whole issue and present text purely on the basis of hard facts - whenever I try to quote John Aubrey in relation to this section it is disputed and I find this both unfair and illogical. Maybe we need some sort of independent arbitration to sort this, and I would be grateful for anyone's suggestion as to how to go about doing this. Contaldo80 ( talk) 23:25, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
The issue is actually of some importance because certain authors have suggested that the reason that Bacon was not promoted earlier under Elizabeth I was that she knew about (and disapproved of) his pederasty. He faired much better under the new king - James I. That's really why the issue is important and of interest - but the article doesn't give a chance to reflect this. But I'm sorry I really don't think the Jackson book has any place in this article - there are much better sources. Jackson is not a historian or academic and his book is acknowledged as a piece of fiction (I can't even find the book in any library or bookshop). In addition there are really too many sources from the 1920s and 1940s in this article - it gives the whole thing a very odd slant. If we can't replace them with something newer then they'll have to go. Contaldo80 ( talk) 16:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm absolutely happy to follow this suggestion. Avoid labouring the issue but present some evidence (from both sides) and main academic proponents - and why it impacts upon Bacon's life. At the moment the section reads awkwardly. Problem is that every time we try to redraft the section (for example to include the quote from John Aubrey - an important source) - the text is reverted. Contaldo80 ( talk) 08:49, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
No, as it doesn't really say very much - at least we should give some reasons on either side (and set out why it is important in the context of Bacon's life and career). Otherwise we're left in the odd position that this issue is dealt with in 3 sentences while controversies on rosicrucian membership, faked death, parentage of Elizabeth I, and Shakespearean authorship are each covered in detail in 3 or 4 paragraphs (even though homosexuality is covered in mainstream and reputable publications, and the other controversies are not). Contaldo80 ( talk) 12:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
I apologize, but I must differ with any assertion that discussion of an article that appeared in "Journal of Homosexuality" has any place in a scholarly biography about Francis Bacon. This is indefensible. I do agree that POVs should be kept in check. Therefore the obvious attempt to add more material that would artificially place more weight on the side of the homosexuality hypothesis, instead of keeping the satisfactory and balanced statement that has previously been on this article is not acceptable. Additionally, the statement regarding both sides of the argument more appropriately belongs in the "Personal relationships" section. Emery ( talk) 07:05, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
( Dick Emery) - I removed the material on Marguerite as it's highly speculative. It only appears in books from the 1910s and 1940s. There is nothing on the wiki article page for Marguerite about a relationship with Francis Bacon. If you can cite a mainstream source that confirms a relationship between the two then it can stay (likewise contribute to the wiki article on Marguerite)- otherwise it is frankly nonsense and seems to support a trend of material that implies that Bacon was of 'royal blood' and therefore was comfortable relationships with other royals! I also removed the material on Hatton as it appeared again in a book from the 1940s (Dodd). I don't doubt that Bacon later regretted not marrying her as he certainly needed the money her dowry would have brought! I'm happy to have something on Hatton - it's important - but from a more recent source. This fixation on the homosexuality issue means that improvements to the rest of the article are being left out. We need to improve all source material please! Contaldo80 ( talk) 16:29, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
In response to ( Dick Emery) - wikipedia is not strictly an academic resource. However, we should try to discipline ourselves as much as possible in order to take an academic approach, and to improve the credibility and usefulness of the site. In general academic practice it is usual to use material that is up-to-date unless of course it is either seminal or influential. I don't think this claim can be made for the material under the Francis Bacon article from 1912 or 1940. If recent material is available to support the text - for example with regard to Marguerite and Hatton (and I am aware that it does exist with regard to Hatton) - then these should simply be used in place of the earlier sources cited. If more recent material is not available then we really do have to question how reliable these earlier sources are - particularly in light of the fact that many scholars have looked at the life of Francis Bacon since the 1940s and historical research methods are much improved on those in the past. This is particularly important if we want to reach the aspiration of reaching 'featured article' status. Also please do not call me "Mr. Contaldo" - I have not invited you to interact on such familiar terms (and you may also be making suppositions); I would be grateful if you would follow proper wikipedia etiquette. Contaldo80 ( talk) 16:19, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
I am all for inclusiveness but suggest that this approach is a recipe for disaster - it's not really good academic practice. Firstly we need to distinguish between primary and secondary sources - primary sources are those written from people around at the time of Bacon (or shortly thereafter). Secondary sources are commentaries on these. We should not really be quoting 150 year old sources for this article unless they are seminal works of great influence. The risk is that historical methods in the past were far from rigorous, and a lot of the conclusions drawn are dubious. Macaulay's 'History of England' is a magisterial work, but subsequent research has revealed significant errors. Also there is the fact that loads of material is available from recent years - from good reliable and verifiable academic soruces. Bacon is a popular subject. Why can't we just use material from these? If modern historians haven't included a piece of information then it's probably not worth covering; and frankly we're scraping the bottom of the barrel if we need to find a quote from something written 80 years ago in order to support a sentence in the text. Contaldo80 ( talk) 11:13, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
And interestingly the book by Nieves Mathews on character assassination actually looks at these fringe theories in some detail, and maps how they have developed over the centuries - detracting from the real achievements of Bacon (ie his writings). Contaldo80 ( talk) 13:42, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes I also agree the age of works is not a problem, and that these should not take the place of modern scholarship. But these older reference works must not be excluded. As for the homosexuality topic, I humbly believe that the paragraph that is quoted at the top of this section does give both sides of the argument. Sujata Kapila ( talk) 20:48, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
You must stop adding the homosexual journal synopsis to this article. Namaste. Sujata Kapila ( talk) 02:58, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Sujata. Less is better. Simply ADDING to an article doesn't make it better. Sage 1133 ( talk) 04:07, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
I again reaffirm my agreement with all the other editors who have clearly stated that a short balanced statement of both sides of the homosexualy hypothesis is acceptable. What is not acceptable is the insertion of the "Journal of Homosexuality" article summary into that statement. Trying to slant the presentation towards the homosexual view is unacceptable. And what is expecially intolerable among intelligent adults engaging in rational discourse is the flinging of labels such as "homophobia" and edit summaries that claim to be reverting a "vandal" (which is what was directed at me today). Emery ( talk) 15:48, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
All I want to see is a balanced statement as suggested by Dick Emory. In politics if you don't get your way, you go on a personal attack. It has no place in chronicling someone's life. Sage 1133 ( talk) 19:45, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
If contributors here are really serious about presenting balanced information then can I suggest they do so under the sections dealing with marguerite, parentage, rosicrucians, faked death etc which are frankly fringe (and shouldn't really be included at all). I have seen no evidence that some are prepared to do that. The bulk of mainstream authors believe Bacon to have been attracted to other men - that does not mean that he was necessarilly an active homosexual - he may have been chaste. It is important (i) because that was part of his character (and certainly no less of interest than a supposed 'love affair' with the queen of France; and (2) as some scholars have suggested this is why he was passed over for high office by Elizabeth (or 'mummy' as she may have been known). The text should therefore include references to the main supporting works; citations of aubrey and D'Ewes (the key sources) and something about the politics of the issue Then let's bring this to a close. I don't care whether he was gay or not but I do care about being intellectually honest. It is not sufficient to say that equal space be given to arguments for and against as the arguments against are less significant and convincing than thos for. Contaldo80 ( talk) 21:06, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Certainly a scholarly approach such as you reflect upon is admirable. However when dealing with Zagorin and Stewart's discussion of D'Ewes, Aubrey, and Anne Bacon, this is a different matter: it is not valid evidence under any honest evaluation of it - especially if you have read Bacon's writings. Any even superficial examination of what they bring up as "evidence" in support of the specualtion - is not "evidence". What do they bring up?
(1) D'Ewes attack upon Bacon in his private diary. There was no "public controversey" or "outcry" sparked by him against Bacon as has been falsely implied. D'Ewes had been a sworn enemy of Bacon in Parliament in political matters, and had called from a church pulpit for the execution of all homosexuals.
(2) Aubrey was an alcoholic who often got the gossip he collected mixed up and attributed to the wrong people.
(3) Anne Bacon loved her son, but was furious that he sometime allowed servants use the quarters that were not reserved for servants. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 17:38, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
D'Ewes and Aubrey are primary sources that - as the discussions here have shown - can be misinterpreted as to their significance. Some secondary sources disagree, while other secondary sources - such as Nieves Mathews and Ross Jackson - point out the lack of substantial evidence for homosexuality - as well as the evidence against homosexuality (his ideal society vision in The New Atlantis). Arion 3x3 ( talk) 13:18, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
A few months ago this year I stated my opposition to include the Homosexuality Journal article discussion into Bacon's biography. I simply don't see where it belongs in a biographical encyclopedia article, nor do I agree with placing opinions about someone's sexuality in an article unless it was well known it led to their notoriety or fame. I feel like a broken record on this. Bacon is famous not for his sexuality, but his many contributions to civilization. 70.162.21.53 ( talk) 16:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I think qp10qp makes the points very well. We are not required to be historians here and research this ourselves. Our role is simply to report the facts as they are and leave it to the reader to draw (unbiased) conclusions. Hence I don't think it's our role to dismiss Aubrey or D'Ewes as unreliable sources - better men and women than we have decided to draw up on them as sources when dealing with the issue of sexuality (and indeed Aubrey is a common and fairly respected source on what happened in that century - there aren't that many near-contemporary sources...)
Can I state yet again why it is important to cover the issue in the article (i) it is part of Bacon's character and as valid for comment as the fact that Nelson only had one eye(!) (ii) most modern mainstream authors today cover the issue (either briefly or at length); and (iii) perhaps most important is the fact that historians believe Bacon's sexuality may have slowed his career. Jardine and Stewart argue (also covered by Rictor Norton, author of 'Mother Clap's Molly House') that his responsibilities remained rather meagre for more than twenty years, and suggest this was because of prejudice against him for being homosexual. However, acknowledging it also seems likely that his advancement was prevented by the personal enmity of his cousin Robert Cecil, Lord Burghley. In contrast, Bacon rapidly rose to fame under King James I. He received the titles of Baron Verulam in 1618 and Viscount St Albans in 1621. (His home was at Gorhambury, outside St Albans.) Again the argument is that the swiftness of his rise may have been influenced by his personal friendship with James, who was homosexual himself.
I would grateful please to hear a convincing argument as to why it is not necessary to deal with sexuality in the article. Can I also reiterate that the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography deals with the issue of sexuality - perhaps suggesting that we should not get too caught up in arguments for or against inclusion. Let's go ahead now and decide the best wording to capture the key issues - otherwise we're going in circles here!
But I still argue we should leave Ross Jackson out of this. I now have his book and the blurb describes him as 'an international management consultant and the author of 4 books on ecological, economic and spiritual themes'. Even a quick flick through 'Shaker of the Spear' gives us the following reading: Ancient egyptian phrases found in the scrolls. Ma'at was the name they gave to the inner order. The modern interpretation is 'Great is the established Master of Freemasonry, Great is the Spirit of Masonry'. Again they are magical phrases that actually work. Yours is just one example of how they work... (p147). I could go on! This is a bit like using Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code to write an wiki article on the Renaissance! It might be a cracking good read but I can't see why we're including it? Incidentally just what arguments does Jackson make against Bacon's homosexuality? No-one has ever said. Contaldo80 ( talk) 17:53, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
You ask for a convincing argument as to why it is not necessary to deal with sexuality in the article. A few months ago I opposed inclusion of the Homosexuality Journal article because it does not belong in a biographical encyclopedia article. Why? Here's the reason: placing opinions about someone's sexuality into their biography unless it has a direct impact upon their career or fame is superfluous. Bacon is famous for his writing and philosophy, not his sexuality. If you follow your line of thinking we need to re-write everyone's biography in Wiki and include any conjecture about their sexuality whether it played a pivotal role in their life or not. Sage 1133 ( talk) 03:40, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Sage 1133 - I don't feel I can really have proper discussion on this issue with you. You keep insisting that sexuality is irrelevant but I have written umpteenth times that academics believe it to have had an impact on Bacon's career. Yet you seem to have deliberately chosen not to acknowledge those comments. Please let's be clear; we are not debating whether the issue of sexuality is an issue of interest for you personally. That has no interest or relevance here. The issue is 'Do academics think sexuality was a relevant factor that impacted upon Bacon's life and career?' If that argument is too nuanced then please let me know and I'll see if I can simplify further. Contaldo80 ( talk) 19:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Arion 3x3 - thanks for clarifying but isn't this still I bit like drawing upon 'Dan Brown's Guide to the Da Vinci Code' to source the wiki-article on the renaissance? I think there are better academic sources. Also still interested to hear though how Jackson refutes the sexuality claims? Contaldo80 ( talk) 19:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Might I suggest that the following wording be changed: "The Jacobean antiquarian, Sir Simonds D'Ewes suggested implied there had been was some question of bringing him to trial for buggery[12]. This conclusion has been disputed by other authors, such as Nieves Mathews,[13][14] who consider the sources to be more open to interpretation.". Apart from the redundancy of "suggested implied", I feel that "consider the sources to be more open to interpretation" is very bad English. If "open to different interpretations" is what is meant, that should be the form used. 124.197.15.138 ( talk) 22:29, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
The section on Bacon's relationship with Marguerite de Valois is highly dubious. It says that she was in the process of a divorce when they met. Whoever wrote this is unaware of how such issues were conducted in 16th century France. Marguerite was Catholic and would never have been able to procure a divorce. Instead she would have had to seek a papal dispension to dissolve the marriage. In addition the source cited to explain that they fell in 'love at first sight' is from 1940. This is too old a source to be used credibly here, and highly subjective I would have thought. Can we amend or get rid of please. Contaldo80 ( talk) 23:32, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
I absolutely agree with you. There's a shocking lot of nonsense in this article - a lot of it highly romanticised and speculative. It really needs a good tidying up. If you're agreed then I think we should cut back the section on Marguerite. Contaldo80 ( talk) 16:23, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for having a go at this but still more to do I think. I'm worried about using the Peter Dawkins source for one. His academic training is actually in architecture; and this can be found from his website: "Peter is also the Founder-Director of the Zoence Academy, which runs a training course in the spiritual, geomantic and cosmological wisdom of the West." It all sounds a bit 'new age'. Meanwhile Jean Overton Fuller (again not a historian) has written a number of books around 'magic' - Alesteir Crowley, Madame Blavatsky - and is a proponent of the theory that Bacon wrote Shakespeare's plays. Finally, even Smedley is said by some to have an 'occultist' agenda. This is one of his quotes: "It will eventually be proven that the whole scheme of the Authorized Version of the Bible was Francis Bacon's. The first edition of the King James Bible contains a cryptic draconian headpiece. Bacon cryptically concealed in the Bible that which he dared not reveal in the literal text: the secret Rosicrucian key to a mystic and Masonic Christianity". I'm concerned that stuff like this weakens our credibility. And again can we be clear whether or not there are references to Bacon on the wiki article for Marguerite? These things need to be reciprocal. Contaldo80 ( talk) 14:11, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks very helpful, and certainly makes odd such a statement as: "Francis Bacon's love for Margueritte was the overmastering passion of his life, and dominated his mind for many years". Maybe it did, but it doesn't seem to have been reciprocal! Another one for the controversies section rather than the main body of text? Contaldo80 ( talk) 10:53, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
There is no denying that the implausible lengths that those attempting to decode what they claimed were cipers hidden in various writings have resulted in some historians backing away from seriously studying Francis Bacon. Nevertheless, there is plenty of evidence (not just conjecture) that supports what some would dismiss as "the silliest ideas about Bacon". Emery ( talk) 14:55, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I certainly have no problem finding mentions of Marguerite in my books on Bacon. In addition, I cannot find myself agreeing with limiting sources to only those by "respectable academics." When serious scholars diligently and with precison pursue the facts in history that may not be widely acknowledged, they should be honored for their integrity and courage - not dismissed as not being "respectable". I will never forget how the " Gulf of Tonkin" alleged attacks were parroted as legitimate by "respectable academics" and continued for years to be defended as the true "mainstream" historical truth. Emery ( talk) 01:51, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
The information about the alleged relationship between Francis and Marguerite should be in the "Controversies" section. When I have a moment, I will look at what other sources exist besides the largely discredited ciphers or the interpretation of the story allegedly concealed in Argenis. My actual area of specialization has been researching the evidence for Francis Bacon as the true author of the Shakespeare works. I consider it practically impossible to deny Francis as the true author once one becomes familiar with such matters as the financial arrangement with Will Shakspere, as well as the Northumberland Manuscript and all the parallels from Bacon's Promus of Formularies and Elegancies.
One further note about "respected academics" and their supposed expertise. I heartily concur with the following observation written by one of my colleagues: "The ignorance of today’s scholars is especially blissful. They think the authorship dispute was all settled years ago. They are largely ignorant even of Bacon’s acknowledged works. A second reason for devaluing their opinion is that, regrettably, sound judgment is not always among the qualities which achieve eminence for a scholar. An aptitude for sitting in libraries, digging out information, is distinct from an ability to evaluate the evidence so unearthed." Emery ( talk) 20:38, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Smatprt - wikipedia must meet the most rigorous standards in order to support its credibility. The study of Bacon the man - over centuries in fact - has attracted frequent fringe theorists determined to reveal some 'hidden' facet (most notably around the occult). The book by Mathews actually covers these well and tries to sweep away some of the cobwebs. Contaldo80 ( talk) 09:34, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree with you that the operative word is "practicing". No one but the person himself, in this case Francis, can really describe what "inclinations" he has. In the case of Francis, however, . . . . . he did suggest what his inclinations are: that being that "masculine love" (the term used at that time for homosexuality) was not what he would envision in an ideal society (his Utopian creation in "The New Atlantis"). Arion 3x3 ( talk) 17:55, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Is this really as inconsistent as you think? It's perfectly logical that he was attracted to other men, but would not see that as an ideal. It would be very odd in 17th century England to find a man 'out and proud'. He would have viewed at as a shameful weakness. Besides which he wrote New Atlantis when he was an old man - even his ardour is likely to have cooled over time! Contaldo80 ( talk) 21:10, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
You are correct that The New Atlantis extols chasteness (and also extols the new order he envisioned for the settlements in North America). However the "wasn't going to talk about it" argument holds no more weight in this year of 2008 than it did in last year's discussions in the archives. The absence of evidence - is not evidence! Arion 3x3 ( talk) 21:02, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
I am completely opposed to the removal of the Marguerite material. Although I can understand the concerns expressed by qp10qp, I would also like to caution all of us to remain careful not to engage censorship of material that we personally find implausible. We need to have a proportionate representation of the matter, rather than to challenge the work of writers on the subject. Much of this work may strike one as not widely acknowledged, but as long as there are scholars, researchers, and authors in print who have written of the Francis and Marguerite relationship, their theories are validly referenceable on Wikipedia.
Arion 3x3 - I can see you have great respect for Francis Bacon, and I do actually admire that. You've shown that your passionate about the subject. But dare I say that you're being a little disingenuous here? You say I would also like to caution all of us to remain careful not to engage censorship of material that we personally find implausible. But above you have argued quite strongly for the removal of text dealing with Bacon's sexuality on the grounds that the sources are biased and described events couldn't have happened! My main opposition to the inclusion of the text on Marguerite is that the modern academic sources are too old. If it's an important and valid issue then it will easily be covered in recent academic material - if it's not then it's for the fringes. But also, if you feel strongly about this then perhaps you should add some text to the actual wikipedia article on Marguerite. Why concentrate just on Bacon? Contaldo80 ( talk) 18:00, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to raise this issue because of one of his quotations: "A little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion." This would put some weight to argument that he was a theist, and a materialist worldview cuts pretty effectively all supernatural beings from existance. Of course Bacon can be also agnostic or something else, but in the light of this quotation it is most likely that he was a Christian of some sort. More research on this subject is needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.50.9.167 ( talk) 14:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Everyone in Elizabethan England was at least nominally a Christian. You weren't really permitted to be anything else. That doesn't discount the possibility, however, that Bacon may have personally doubted the existance of God and rejected Christian theology. Outwardly though he would still have been required to conform and practice the faith (particularly if holding senior public office). Contaldo80 ( talk) 13:51, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Francis wrote of his disappointment with the clerical power struggles in both Roman Catholicism and the Church of England. However it is impossible to read his writings and speculate that he may have personally doubted the existance of God and rejected Christian theology. Emery ( talk) 07:28, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Francis Bacon was opposed to superstition and clerical repression, but I have not seen evidence that he was a "materialist" who regarded "the spiritual and the material spheres as completely separate." That conclusion does not follow from Bacon's advocacy of experimentation and inductive science for the "Advancement of Learning". He believed that the same Nature that was ascribed to God was also in every person. In his essay "Of Atheism" he wrote: "They that deny a God, destroy man's nobility; for certainly man is of kin to the beasts, by his body; and, if he be not of kin to God, by his spirit, he is a base and ignoble creature. . . . So man, when he resteth and assureth himself, upon divine protection and favor, gathered a force and faith, which human nature in itself could not obtain." Emery ( talk) 07:14, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Not only did Francis Bacon consider an all-pervading God to be the essential nature of reality, but he considered the process of scientific discovery part of the activity which sets us apart from merely "kin to the beasts" but as "kin to God, by his spirit". Zagorin's labeling of him as a "materialist" under any stretch of logic ("modern" or otherwise) does not follow. For example, on page 45 of "Of the Advancement of Learning" Francis Bacon wrote: "For so he (King Solomon) saith expressly, The Glory of God is to conceale a thing, but the Glory of a King is to find it out. As if according to that innocent and affectionate play of children, the Divine Majesty took delight to hide his works, to the end to have them found out, and as if Kings could not obtain a greater Honour, then to be God's play-fellowes in that game, especially considering the great command they have of wits and means, whereby the investigation of all things may be perfected." Emery ( talk) 14:44, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes it is true that Zagorin claimed that Francis Bacon believed "that these two kinds of learning should be kept separate". I have never read anything written by Francis Bacon that would make one think that this was his actual viewpoint. I believe, if I truly understand the point of Emery, that this is the problem with such an interpretation by Zagorin. I apologize for this, but it is a necessity to point out that the statement of Zagorin that "materialism was a ... basic feature of his philosophy" is not the truth. Sujata Kapila ( talk) 20:32, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Francis Bacon was not a materialist. He was, in fact, opposed to materialism. This is a fact that is seen throughout all of his writings and is strongly communicated in his essay "A Confession of Faith"(and also "Of Atheism") where he clearly lays out his beliefs. To say that he was a materialist is like saying that President Obama is a Republican. It is evident to me that someone who calls Bacon a materialist either has never read his works or is mistaking him for someone else. "I had rather believe all the fables in the Legend, and the Talmud, and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind."(Bacon, Of Atheism) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.156.150.246 ( talk) 20:02, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Who put the timeline on this page? It looks awesome, and I might want to use it on other pages, but I'm not entirely sure how to use it. Where did it come from and how does it work? Tea and crumpets ( t c) 18:58, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Can someone specifically cite Bacon's presence in parliament on the date the Gunpowder Plot was supposed to have taken place? - Hexhand ( talk) 23:09, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Removed several edits by User:Smatprt concerning the sexuality. Despite the claim that this was a npov edit it clearly was not. "Numerous scholars believe that Bacon was either bisexual or homosexual" and then "In opposition to these theories, novelist Ross Jackson..." is certainly no npov edit. The "350 years of debate" is certainly also debatable, since this question has only been debated amongst Bacon scholars in recent years. The mention of the bisexual/homosexual theory as it is seems a lot more npov than those recent edits. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 01:29, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
(1) I stand by my statements - and they can easily be verifed by anyone who objectively evaluates the facts. And why this insistance on discussing the sexuality of a historical figure who was never known to be involved in any campaign for sexual rights, and never involved in any sexual scandals?
(2) Misrepresentation of my position is not helpful. It is not true that I have a "personal agenda to censor the entire subject" - I have clearly stated my support for an unbiased, balanced presentation of both sides of the issue.
(3) Using the argument that the article synopsis of the article from the Journal of Homosexuality is "properly referenced" and therefore should be included as part of the text of a biography of Francis Bacon was opposed by editors from the very beginning of the attempts by Smatprt and Contraldo to insert it - and will continue to be opposed. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 12:24, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
As pointed out by Nandesuka, giving both sides of the issue, in a balanced way without bias, is indeed what this biographical article needs. The article synopsis from the Journal of Homosexuality does not belong in this biography. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 14:53, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Having studied the writings of Francis Bacon since 1968, and as the holder of a large collection of books and journals by and about Francis Bacon, I can say that I know him through his writings. In The Cambridge History of English and American Literature in 18 Volumes (1907–21) Volume IV, Chapter XIV. The Beginnings of English Philosophy Section 9: Francis Bacon is the following helpful comment:
Careless editing over the last 4 days resulted in a messed up reference section. I reverted to the 19 July version after unsuccessfully trying to fix the problems. Any further edits on the article should be done by editors who also preview the article to see if their edits do not ravage the Notes section. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 13:37, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Just look at the messed up "Notes" section that you put back [ [1]] (the operative words are look at that section) and then look at the version that I just restored (edited by Edward321) [ [2]] I would suggest that if you do not understand the problem, that you do not keep re-creating the problem after other editors have contributed to the article. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 17:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree - helpful suggestion. Contaldo80 ( talk) 18:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
The messed-up condition of the formatting of the reference notes section has again been re-created - a third time today after being fixed 3 times today - this time by Contaldo80: [ [3]] Arion 3x3 ( talk) 22:00, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Repeated repostings of condescending remarks directed towards another editor - regarding Wikipedia rules - are not helpful. There are reminders at the top of this discussion page that this page is for discussing improvements to the format and content of the Francis Bacon article. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 19:47, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
The techniques of false accusation and inaccurate misrepresentation of the facts are well-known methods used to try to discredit someone. Nevertheless these do not help to improve the article.
I do agree with you about the shallow nature of adding a few names to an "info box" under the heading of "Influenced by" without any context. Yes, you and I know that Machiavelli was praised by Bacon and others as a political realist who attempted to expose the dark side of political manipulation and malfeasance by governmental leaders. That being said, public perceptions need to be considered when assembling a reference resource such as Wikipedia.
Yes Francis Bacon always disapproved of torture. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 19:38, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm really not happy about the comments above whereby Arion 3x3 accuses me of having messed up the references yet again. I did no such thing - I did not revert, I just removed the text on Marguerite which the contributor had inserted yet again. This goes to the heart of the issue of 'ownership'; this is making this article very awkward and unpleasant to work on. Contaldo80 ( talk) 19:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. Apologies then for having done that. Contaldo80 ( talk) 17:20, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
At present, in an encyclopedic article on, IMHO, one of the most influential writers ever in any language, a great philosopher of inductive scientific method and a major influence on the Enlightenment and, as has been remarked, on those who brought about both the English and American revolutions, people currently will find a section about his apparently having never died, with sources which are - how to put this? - largely unscholarly, non NPOV and non-peer reviewed. This section is actually larger than the section on his works.
I would certainly defend the secret and occult stuff's inclusion somewhere in the Encyclopedia - the Rosicrucian material is informative. But surely either they should be moved to a separate article from the main one, or else their fringe status should be highlighted.
Certainly the Works and main biographical section needs some expanding.-- Straw Cat ( talk) 18:17, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Personally I blame the Ross Jackson book - it's 'romanticised' Bacon too much! Contaldo80 ( talk) 18:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I will be moving the Faked Death section to a separate article, Fringe and Occult Theories about Francis Bacon, in the next few days, in accordance with the rules in WP:Fringe. Possibly other sections should go there too. -- Straw Cat ( talk) 23:50, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi - I deleted the bulk of the occult section as I thought there wasn't much need for it as there's a whole article about it now - I transferred the text to that page instead. Otherwise it seems that we risk ending up repeating the same information in several different articles. My thought was that we should give a summary and then flag the link to the main article on the occult so that interested people can read more about it. While I personally don't agree with the claims being made, I have little objection to having the material (unlike the parentage stuff which in my view is frankly barking). My main concern is that the whole Bacon article is already way too long and would benefit more from including stuff on Bacon's political career and philosophical works. Happy to seek views though. Contaldo80 ( talk) 08:17, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Lead sentence described Bacon as "an English philosopher, statesman, and essayist." I've changed "essayist" to "author".
Bacon wrote essays, and he wrote a
novel,
The New Atlantis.
"Author" means "The writer of a book, article, or other text." (
http://www.bartleby.com/61/19/A0531900.html ) The category "author" includes the category "essayist", but not vice-versa.
Therefore, "author" is both correct and comprehensive, and "essayist", though correct, is not comprehensive.
(Personally, I'd also be perfectly happy with "philosopher, statesman, and writer," if we prefer that.)
Comments? --
201.17.36.246 (
talk)
13:23, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Can someone specifically cite Bacon's presence in parliament on the date the Gunpowder Plot was supposed to have taken place? Without it, we might have to excise ANY commentary that suggests he was. - Hexhand ( talk) 18:31, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
The article requires a complete list of the man's published works: I'm amazed that this has been neglected, while so much else has been done.
1597: Bacon publishes On Plantations, evidently his most direct foray into the debates over slavery, colonialism, etc., massively influential in its day.
By contrast, The Interpretation of Nature was unknown and ignored until long after his death (among those who sought to revive interest in it was 20th c. philosopher Karl Popper, who had been rather biased against Bacon prior to reading it, and became a fan thereafter; Popper complained that Interpretation had been treated rather flippantly by Bacon's editors, including those who compiled his complete works, etc.).
Much else of import will follow from a simple list of the man's published works.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.170.212.34 ( talk) 04:14, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
The article ends on an odd note, and it seems that several catagorie heads could be combined or even eliminated. I'm going to have a go at addressing this. If anyone has an issue with this, please discuss at this thread. Cheers! Smatprt ( talk) 16:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Had a go at the least of works - grateful for thoughts on any ommissions. Is everyone agreed that we should also merge the article on Idols of the Mind with that on the Baconian Method? Makes no sense having them separate. Contaldo80 ( talk) 12:39, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
In the last several weeks there has been the repeated deleting - without discussion - of the section on Bacon's influence on new religions of the 20th century. Since Francis Bacon has been the focal point of these spiritual organization, which have had millions of adherents over the last 75 years, this is entirely appropriate. Just as it is appropriate to include popular culture influences under the "Modern portrayals" subheading which details cinema and television portrayals of Francis Bacon. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 15:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
I have to disagree with you. Francis Bacon is the key historical person around which numerous new religions have been established in the 20th century. Estimates of their membership have ranged from 1 million to several million. If significant historical figures have had religions established around them, such as Siddhartha Gautama, Confucius, or Francis Bacon, then this should be documented in Wikipedia. It makes no difference if a Wikipedia editor considers any particular religious belief to be outlandish. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 04:00, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm frankly fed up that everytime we try and put in some well-sourced mainstream reference to Bacon's sexuality we have to have an endless debate on whether it should or should not be included. Yet here we have a group of contributors who are clearly pushing POV - that Francis Bacon was an 'ascended master' and that he's the leader of some religious band or the other. And clearly to be an ascended master you could never be homosexual (God forbid!) There is even less evidence of this - how are we going to prove it! Smartprt is absolutely right to be firm on whether Bacon is an ascended master or not - it's frankly ruining and distorting the article. Contaldo80 ( talk) 16:23, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Let's face it. Francis Bacon has been an important influence upon new religious movements since the 30's; I think this should be part of the main article Sage1224 12.71.96.2 ( talk) 01:13, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Contrary to what you say, I moved the Bacon's Still Alive stuff to a new article back in July, with a full explanation, but perhaps proponents of this stuff were all at the Ascended Master Summer School then.
I'd noted that Arion 3x3, under this and his various other predecessor names, is obviously deeply interested in and knowleagble about this subject and Theosophy, to judge from his many contributions to the articles on Ascended Masters, and removal of critical material in them. Fine.
But Wikipedia has evolved rules, and one of them, endorsed by Jimbo Wales himself, states that you shouldn't present beliefs in an article, which are held by a tiny amount of people. And he says that is a rule, not open for debate. The belief that Francis Bacon literally never died is held by a very very small set of people. In an article about one of the pioneers of scientific evidential method, the continual insertion of this stuff amounts to vandalism. So please be warned - there are procedures to deal with it.-- Straw Cat ( talk) 19:53, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Well said. I respect individuals' personal beliefs, but we should avoid attempts to build respectability for a theme purely through association. Contaldo80 ( talk) 17:02, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
As a newcomer to this article, I must weigh in against you. These fringe theories actually have little to do with Bacon, and much more to do with the believers in them. A separate article is the cottect place for them. Bob ( QaBob) 04:59, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
There is something clear : you can find a homophobic biographer for every historical homosexual character, even for Verlaine and Rimbaud, denying their homosexuality : in the case of Francis Bacon, it is Nieves Matthews, who was a known homophobic woman. That's nothing more complicated than that. It's just not important. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.200.61.98 ( talk) 22:10, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
Whether or not Bacon was, in fact, homosexual (or for that matter bisexual) is a matter of dispute (note the lonnng discussions above, and in the archive) -- that said, whether he was gay or bi or whatever is interesting as a discussion of the arguments, and that stuff IS encyclopedic; however, adding Bacon to the LGBT list crosses the line of presenting arguments, and instead providing conclusions. Removing the LGBT-list link, and unless consensus indicates he should be listed as LGBT, it shouldn't be added back in again. JasonDUIUC ( talk) 20:59, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Fine, I can go with that. It's been a long slog trying to resolve this issue in any case. Incidentally though I still don't think there's as much of a dispute as some commentators would have us believe. Part of the problem in my view comes when personal religious beliefs (however noble or well-intentioned) interfere with objective historical analysis. The LGBT category label is in any case slightly anachronistic. Although I do have reservations about adopting a 'consensus-seeking' approach - that presupposes one can have a rational debate. Contaldo80 ( talk) 15:11, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
At present the article both claims that he was a member of several secret societies, and disputes this... not optimal, I would say. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. ( talk) 00:51, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
As this article deals primarily with personages and locations in England, it ought to be written in Standard English and not General American. 203.202.95.141 ( talk) 05:07, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
我很喜欢培根的作品
我很喜欢培根的作品 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.71.191.242 ( talk) 10:45, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Might we consider semi-protecting this article - at the very least allowing only signed in users to contribute? It gets an awful lot of childish vandalism - often extremely unfunny "jokes" about pork products. This makes it very hard for me to follow some of the debate on changes and improvements - and there is a danger that efforts to make the article better (instead of fire-fighting) are being severely compromised. Contaldo80 ( talk) 15:51, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
I have recently uploaded contemporary engravings of Bacon by Wenceslas Hollar, galleried below. Feel free to use or not use. Dcoetzee 09:39, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
There is a conspiracy theory which claims that Francis Bacon and count Saint Germain were the same person. I don't know much about this theory, but it seems to be part of the series of urban legends surrounding Bacon. [5] ADM ( talk) 22:10, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
You're right. It's covered under the Occult theories about Francis Bacon article which can be accessed through this main biographical one. Regards. Contaldo80 ( talk) 08:47, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
This, from the section titled "The New Instrument":
seems to conflict with this from Avicenna's Canon of Medicine:
As it stands, this Bacon article might lead the reader to believe Bacon developed the methods. So I've tried to clarify that. Cheers, Anthony ( talk) 18:53, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
I've added to the list of Bacon's works. I didn't really know how to add the citation within the article for such a discontinuous list (or even whether it was appropriate), but these references come from this source:
JKeck ( talk) 19:20, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Just added some other works of Bacon's that I found in the Farrington reference (for biblographical info., see "Sources"). JKeck ( talk) 16:49, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
"He died at Lord Arundel's home[15] on 9 April 1626, leaving assets of about £7,000 (2009 US$11,183) and debts to the amount of £22,000 (2009 US$35,147)."
These amounts of money are not the current value of the pound, they are the value of the pound in 1626. I don't know how to find out how much the debts and assets are worth in today's money, perhaps someone else can help? Until then, the dollar conversions should probably be removed, as they're converting as if £7,000 is a 2009 value, not a 1626 value.
87.236.252.100 ( talk) 13:57, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
As pointed out previously, there was a long series of discussions back in 2007 (documented in the Archives) involving many editors that reached a consensus paragraph that succinctly summarized the two viewpoints of Bacon's sexuality:
Recently there has been insistance on adding discussion of an article from Journal of Homosexuality and despite objections to adding more material to this paragraph, it has been repeatedly re-inserted. Now the further quote from Oxford Dictionary of Biography that states "While there is no certainty about Bacon's sexual orientation or identity, the likelihood that he may have been homosexual is undeniable" is being repeatedly added. I disagree with these repeated attempts to portray Francis Bacon as a homosexual. He had two love relationships with females (Marguerite & Elizabeth) that have been been written about by various authors, and he married a thrid - Alice Barnham.
If you want to know what Francis Bacon thought of homosexuality, then consider his personal conception of what would constitute an ideal society in his own words. Just as Thomas More wrote Utopia as his vision of an ideal society, in 1623 Bacon's aspirations and ideals were expressed in The New Atlantis. This was his creation of an ideal land where "generosity and enlightenment, dignity and splendor, piety and public spirit" were the commonly held qualities of the inhabitants of Bensalem. Franics wrote of "the faithful nuptial union of man and wife," regardless of alliances and positions. In his vision of his ideal society, homosexuality did not exist. He wrote: "As for masculine love, they have no touch of it, and yet there are not so faithful and inviolate friendships in the world as are there", and "there is not under the heavens so chaste a nation as this of Bensalem.". Arion 3x3 ( talk) 16:39, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. In a biographical article in an encyclopedia, presenting both sides of the homosexual controversy needs to be done dispassionately and without overemphasis. Secondary sources are helpful in such an endeavor. Otherwise this article will appear amateurish and trivial. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 19:39, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
The sentence that the "likelihood that he may have been homosexual is undeniable" doesn't even make sense. "Likelihood" implies possibility, "may have been" is dubious, and how that leads to the conclusion of "undeniable" is ridiculous. If you were a lawyer in a courtroom your entire case would be thrown out because the "likelihood" of anything that "may have been" and leads to "undeniable" is simply indefensible and incredulous. The entire sentence should be struck because it has no legs to stand on. Sage 1133 ( talk) 04:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
As someone pointed out last year, Francis Bacon's fame is due to his historical impact as a philosopher, Parliamentarian, scientist, essayist, lawyer and politician. Any speculation regarding his sexuality is irrelevant to his notoriety. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 22:09, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
I've been debating this issue in good faith and have taken great pains to present credible evidence of Bacon's homosexuality. The issue is relevant as it deals with his private life and personal relations and has been raised by historians so is an issue of interest to some; the character of the man as well as his works ( - incidentally the text referring to the 'relationship' with Margueritte has not been questioned by anyone in the same way as being 'relevant'!) I have approached this in an academic way, presenting arguments and citing reputable sources. But it's clear to me now that some of the material being used to refute the issue of homosexuality is bordering on the eccentric. The main text has a reference from Ross Jackson(Shaker of the Spear): first a novel and then a companion to the novel. I have found that Jackson is not even a historian. He has a Ph.D. in Operations Research (apparently the theory and practice of 'problem solving'). His books not only claim that Shakespeare's plays were written by Bacon (disputed by the majority of historians and critics - and indeed anyone who has read the plodding and heavy language used by Bacon in his verified writing); he claims Elizabeth I and Dudley were married - with Bacon as their child; that Bacon was a Rosicrucian; and that Bacon was the reincarnation of Plotinus and Plato. Now I think we're agreed that any wikipedia article needs to be of a high standard. Using Jackson to support any aspect of the text brings the whole article into serious disrepute. We haven't even been presented with the evidence Jackson supposedly uses against homosexuality? I would be grateful to actually see it. It seems absurd to say that because Bacon married Alice Barnham then that settles the case. I discovered this week (from the Du Maurier biography) that in 1603 Bacon indicated his desire to Lord Burghley to marry in order to counteract his waning influence at court, and the woman he had set his sights on (Alice) was 11 years old! We need to get a little serious with this whole issue and present text purely on the basis of hard facts - whenever I try to quote John Aubrey in relation to this section it is disputed and I find this both unfair and illogical. Maybe we need some sort of independent arbitration to sort this, and I would be grateful for anyone's suggestion as to how to go about doing this. Contaldo80 ( talk) 23:25, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
The issue is actually of some importance because certain authors have suggested that the reason that Bacon was not promoted earlier under Elizabeth I was that she knew about (and disapproved of) his pederasty. He faired much better under the new king - James I. That's really why the issue is important and of interest - but the article doesn't give a chance to reflect this. But I'm sorry I really don't think the Jackson book has any place in this article - there are much better sources. Jackson is not a historian or academic and his book is acknowledged as a piece of fiction (I can't even find the book in any library or bookshop). In addition there are really too many sources from the 1920s and 1940s in this article - it gives the whole thing a very odd slant. If we can't replace them with something newer then they'll have to go. Contaldo80 ( talk) 16:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm absolutely happy to follow this suggestion. Avoid labouring the issue but present some evidence (from both sides) and main academic proponents - and why it impacts upon Bacon's life. At the moment the section reads awkwardly. Problem is that every time we try to redraft the section (for example to include the quote from John Aubrey - an important source) - the text is reverted. Contaldo80 ( talk) 08:49, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
No, as it doesn't really say very much - at least we should give some reasons on either side (and set out why it is important in the context of Bacon's life and career). Otherwise we're left in the odd position that this issue is dealt with in 3 sentences while controversies on rosicrucian membership, faked death, parentage of Elizabeth I, and Shakespearean authorship are each covered in detail in 3 or 4 paragraphs (even though homosexuality is covered in mainstream and reputable publications, and the other controversies are not). Contaldo80 ( talk) 12:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
I apologize, but I must differ with any assertion that discussion of an article that appeared in "Journal of Homosexuality" has any place in a scholarly biography about Francis Bacon. This is indefensible. I do agree that POVs should be kept in check. Therefore the obvious attempt to add more material that would artificially place more weight on the side of the homosexuality hypothesis, instead of keeping the satisfactory and balanced statement that has previously been on this article is not acceptable. Additionally, the statement regarding both sides of the argument more appropriately belongs in the "Personal relationships" section. Emery ( talk) 07:05, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
( Dick Emery) - I removed the material on Marguerite as it's highly speculative. It only appears in books from the 1910s and 1940s. There is nothing on the wiki article page for Marguerite about a relationship with Francis Bacon. If you can cite a mainstream source that confirms a relationship between the two then it can stay (likewise contribute to the wiki article on Marguerite)- otherwise it is frankly nonsense and seems to support a trend of material that implies that Bacon was of 'royal blood' and therefore was comfortable relationships with other royals! I also removed the material on Hatton as it appeared again in a book from the 1940s (Dodd). I don't doubt that Bacon later regretted not marrying her as he certainly needed the money her dowry would have brought! I'm happy to have something on Hatton - it's important - but from a more recent source. This fixation on the homosexuality issue means that improvements to the rest of the article are being left out. We need to improve all source material please! Contaldo80 ( talk) 16:29, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
In response to ( Dick Emery) - wikipedia is not strictly an academic resource. However, we should try to discipline ourselves as much as possible in order to take an academic approach, and to improve the credibility and usefulness of the site. In general academic practice it is usual to use material that is up-to-date unless of course it is either seminal or influential. I don't think this claim can be made for the material under the Francis Bacon article from 1912 or 1940. If recent material is available to support the text - for example with regard to Marguerite and Hatton (and I am aware that it does exist with regard to Hatton) - then these should simply be used in place of the earlier sources cited. If more recent material is not available then we really do have to question how reliable these earlier sources are - particularly in light of the fact that many scholars have looked at the life of Francis Bacon since the 1940s and historical research methods are much improved on those in the past. This is particularly important if we want to reach the aspiration of reaching 'featured article' status. Also please do not call me "Mr. Contaldo" - I have not invited you to interact on such familiar terms (and you may also be making suppositions); I would be grateful if you would follow proper wikipedia etiquette. Contaldo80 ( talk) 16:19, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
I am all for inclusiveness but suggest that this approach is a recipe for disaster - it's not really good academic practice. Firstly we need to distinguish between primary and secondary sources - primary sources are those written from people around at the time of Bacon (or shortly thereafter). Secondary sources are commentaries on these. We should not really be quoting 150 year old sources for this article unless they are seminal works of great influence. The risk is that historical methods in the past were far from rigorous, and a lot of the conclusions drawn are dubious. Macaulay's 'History of England' is a magisterial work, but subsequent research has revealed significant errors. Also there is the fact that loads of material is available from recent years - from good reliable and verifiable academic soruces. Bacon is a popular subject. Why can't we just use material from these? If modern historians haven't included a piece of information then it's probably not worth covering; and frankly we're scraping the bottom of the barrel if we need to find a quote from something written 80 years ago in order to support a sentence in the text. Contaldo80 ( talk) 11:13, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
And interestingly the book by Nieves Mathews on character assassination actually looks at these fringe theories in some detail, and maps how they have developed over the centuries - detracting from the real achievements of Bacon (ie his writings). Contaldo80 ( talk) 13:42, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes I also agree the age of works is not a problem, and that these should not take the place of modern scholarship. But these older reference works must not be excluded. As for the homosexuality topic, I humbly believe that the paragraph that is quoted at the top of this section does give both sides of the argument. Sujata Kapila ( talk) 20:48, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
You must stop adding the homosexual journal synopsis to this article. Namaste. Sujata Kapila ( talk) 02:58, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Sujata. Less is better. Simply ADDING to an article doesn't make it better. Sage 1133 ( talk) 04:07, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
I again reaffirm my agreement with all the other editors who have clearly stated that a short balanced statement of both sides of the homosexualy hypothesis is acceptable. What is not acceptable is the insertion of the "Journal of Homosexuality" article summary into that statement. Trying to slant the presentation towards the homosexual view is unacceptable. And what is expecially intolerable among intelligent adults engaging in rational discourse is the flinging of labels such as "homophobia" and edit summaries that claim to be reverting a "vandal" (which is what was directed at me today). Emery ( talk) 15:48, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
All I want to see is a balanced statement as suggested by Dick Emory. In politics if you don't get your way, you go on a personal attack. It has no place in chronicling someone's life. Sage 1133 ( talk) 19:45, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
If contributors here are really serious about presenting balanced information then can I suggest they do so under the sections dealing with marguerite, parentage, rosicrucians, faked death etc which are frankly fringe (and shouldn't really be included at all). I have seen no evidence that some are prepared to do that. The bulk of mainstream authors believe Bacon to have been attracted to other men - that does not mean that he was necessarilly an active homosexual - he may have been chaste. It is important (i) because that was part of his character (and certainly no less of interest than a supposed 'love affair' with the queen of France; and (2) as some scholars have suggested this is why he was passed over for high office by Elizabeth (or 'mummy' as she may have been known). The text should therefore include references to the main supporting works; citations of aubrey and D'Ewes (the key sources) and something about the politics of the issue Then let's bring this to a close. I don't care whether he was gay or not but I do care about being intellectually honest. It is not sufficient to say that equal space be given to arguments for and against as the arguments against are less significant and convincing than thos for. Contaldo80 ( talk) 21:06, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Certainly a scholarly approach such as you reflect upon is admirable. However when dealing with Zagorin and Stewart's discussion of D'Ewes, Aubrey, and Anne Bacon, this is a different matter: it is not valid evidence under any honest evaluation of it - especially if you have read Bacon's writings. Any even superficial examination of what they bring up as "evidence" in support of the specualtion - is not "evidence". What do they bring up?
(1) D'Ewes attack upon Bacon in his private diary. There was no "public controversey" or "outcry" sparked by him against Bacon as has been falsely implied. D'Ewes had been a sworn enemy of Bacon in Parliament in political matters, and had called from a church pulpit for the execution of all homosexuals.
(2) Aubrey was an alcoholic who often got the gossip he collected mixed up and attributed to the wrong people.
(3) Anne Bacon loved her son, but was furious that he sometime allowed servants use the quarters that were not reserved for servants. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 17:38, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
D'Ewes and Aubrey are primary sources that - as the discussions here have shown - can be misinterpreted as to their significance. Some secondary sources disagree, while other secondary sources - such as Nieves Mathews and Ross Jackson - point out the lack of substantial evidence for homosexuality - as well as the evidence against homosexuality (his ideal society vision in The New Atlantis). Arion 3x3 ( talk) 13:18, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
A few months ago this year I stated my opposition to include the Homosexuality Journal article discussion into Bacon's biography. I simply don't see where it belongs in a biographical encyclopedia article, nor do I agree with placing opinions about someone's sexuality in an article unless it was well known it led to their notoriety or fame. I feel like a broken record on this. Bacon is famous not for his sexuality, but his many contributions to civilization. 70.162.21.53 ( talk) 16:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I think qp10qp makes the points very well. We are not required to be historians here and research this ourselves. Our role is simply to report the facts as they are and leave it to the reader to draw (unbiased) conclusions. Hence I don't think it's our role to dismiss Aubrey or D'Ewes as unreliable sources - better men and women than we have decided to draw up on them as sources when dealing with the issue of sexuality (and indeed Aubrey is a common and fairly respected source on what happened in that century - there aren't that many near-contemporary sources...)
Can I state yet again why it is important to cover the issue in the article (i) it is part of Bacon's character and as valid for comment as the fact that Nelson only had one eye(!) (ii) most modern mainstream authors today cover the issue (either briefly or at length); and (iii) perhaps most important is the fact that historians believe Bacon's sexuality may have slowed his career. Jardine and Stewart argue (also covered by Rictor Norton, author of 'Mother Clap's Molly House') that his responsibilities remained rather meagre for more than twenty years, and suggest this was because of prejudice against him for being homosexual. However, acknowledging it also seems likely that his advancement was prevented by the personal enmity of his cousin Robert Cecil, Lord Burghley. In contrast, Bacon rapidly rose to fame under King James I. He received the titles of Baron Verulam in 1618 and Viscount St Albans in 1621. (His home was at Gorhambury, outside St Albans.) Again the argument is that the swiftness of his rise may have been influenced by his personal friendship with James, who was homosexual himself.
I would grateful please to hear a convincing argument as to why it is not necessary to deal with sexuality in the article. Can I also reiterate that the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography deals with the issue of sexuality - perhaps suggesting that we should not get too caught up in arguments for or against inclusion. Let's go ahead now and decide the best wording to capture the key issues - otherwise we're going in circles here!
But I still argue we should leave Ross Jackson out of this. I now have his book and the blurb describes him as 'an international management consultant and the author of 4 books on ecological, economic and spiritual themes'. Even a quick flick through 'Shaker of the Spear' gives us the following reading: Ancient egyptian phrases found in the scrolls. Ma'at was the name they gave to the inner order. The modern interpretation is 'Great is the established Master of Freemasonry, Great is the Spirit of Masonry'. Again they are magical phrases that actually work. Yours is just one example of how they work... (p147). I could go on! This is a bit like using Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code to write an wiki article on the Renaissance! It might be a cracking good read but I can't see why we're including it? Incidentally just what arguments does Jackson make against Bacon's homosexuality? No-one has ever said. Contaldo80 ( talk) 17:53, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
You ask for a convincing argument as to why it is not necessary to deal with sexuality in the article. A few months ago I opposed inclusion of the Homosexuality Journal article because it does not belong in a biographical encyclopedia article. Why? Here's the reason: placing opinions about someone's sexuality into their biography unless it has a direct impact upon their career or fame is superfluous. Bacon is famous for his writing and philosophy, not his sexuality. If you follow your line of thinking we need to re-write everyone's biography in Wiki and include any conjecture about their sexuality whether it played a pivotal role in their life or not. Sage 1133 ( talk) 03:40, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Sage 1133 - I don't feel I can really have proper discussion on this issue with you. You keep insisting that sexuality is irrelevant but I have written umpteenth times that academics believe it to have had an impact on Bacon's career. Yet you seem to have deliberately chosen not to acknowledge those comments. Please let's be clear; we are not debating whether the issue of sexuality is an issue of interest for you personally. That has no interest or relevance here. The issue is 'Do academics think sexuality was a relevant factor that impacted upon Bacon's life and career?' If that argument is too nuanced then please let me know and I'll see if I can simplify further. Contaldo80 ( talk) 19:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Arion 3x3 - thanks for clarifying but isn't this still I bit like drawing upon 'Dan Brown's Guide to the Da Vinci Code' to source the wiki-article on the renaissance? I think there are better academic sources. Also still interested to hear though how Jackson refutes the sexuality claims? Contaldo80 ( talk) 19:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Might I suggest that the following wording be changed: "The Jacobean antiquarian, Sir Simonds D'Ewes suggested implied there had been was some question of bringing him to trial for buggery[12]. This conclusion has been disputed by other authors, such as Nieves Mathews,[13][14] who consider the sources to be more open to interpretation.". Apart from the redundancy of "suggested implied", I feel that "consider the sources to be more open to interpretation" is very bad English. If "open to different interpretations" is what is meant, that should be the form used. 124.197.15.138 ( talk) 22:29, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
The section on Bacon's relationship with Marguerite de Valois is highly dubious. It says that she was in the process of a divorce when they met. Whoever wrote this is unaware of how such issues were conducted in 16th century France. Marguerite was Catholic and would never have been able to procure a divorce. Instead she would have had to seek a papal dispension to dissolve the marriage. In addition the source cited to explain that they fell in 'love at first sight' is from 1940. This is too old a source to be used credibly here, and highly subjective I would have thought. Can we amend or get rid of please. Contaldo80 ( talk) 23:32, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
I absolutely agree with you. There's a shocking lot of nonsense in this article - a lot of it highly romanticised and speculative. It really needs a good tidying up. If you're agreed then I think we should cut back the section on Marguerite. Contaldo80 ( talk) 16:23, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for having a go at this but still more to do I think. I'm worried about using the Peter Dawkins source for one. His academic training is actually in architecture; and this can be found from his website: "Peter is also the Founder-Director of the Zoence Academy, which runs a training course in the spiritual, geomantic and cosmological wisdom of the West." It all sounds a bit 'new age'. Meanwhile Jean Overton Fuller (again not a historian) has written a number of books around 'magic' - Alesteir Crowley, Madame Blavatsky - and is a proponent of the theory that Bacon wrote Shakespeare's plays. Finally, even Smedley is said by some to have an 'occultist' agenda. This is one of his quotes: "It will eventually be proven that the whole scheme of the Authorized Version of the Bible was Francis Bacon's. The first edition of the King James Bible contains a cryptic draconian headpiece. Bacon cryptically concealed in the Bible that which he dared not reveal in the literal text: the secret Rosicrucian key to a mystic and Masonic Christianity". I'm concerned that stuff like this weakens our credibility. And again can we be clear whether or not there are references to Bacon on the wiki article for Marguerite? These things need to be reciprocal. Contaldo80 ( talk) 14:11, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks very helpful, and certainly makes odd such a statement as: "Francis Bacon's love for Margueritte was the overmastering passion of his life, and dominated his mind for many years". Maybe it did, but it doesn't seem to have been reciprocal! Another one for the controversies section rather than the main body of text? Contaldo80 ( talk) 10:53, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
There is no denying that the implausible lengths that those attempting to decode what they claimed were cipers hidden in various writings have resulted in some historians backing away from seriously studying Francis Bacon. Nevertheless, there is plenty of evidence (not just conjecture) that supports what some would dismiss as "the silliest ideas about Bacon". Emery ( talk) 14:55, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I certainly have no problem finding mentions of Marguerite in my books on Bacon. In addition, I cannot find myself agreeing with limiting sources to only those by "respectable academics." When serious scholars diligently and with precison pursue the facts in history that may not be widely acknowledged, they should be honored for their integrity and courage - not dismissed as not being "respectable". I will never forget how the " Gulf of Tonkin" alleged attacks were parroted as legitimate by "respectable academics" and continued for years to be defended as the true "mainstream" historical truth. Emery ( talk) 01:51, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
The information about the alleged relationship between Francis and Marguerite should be in the "Controversies" section. When I have a moment, I will look at what other sources exist besides the largely discredited ciphers or the interpretation of the story allegedly concealed in Argenis. My actual area of specialization has been researching the evidence for Francis Bacon as the true author of the Shakespeare works. I consider it practically impossible to deny Francis as the true author once one becomes familiar with such matters as the financial arrangement with Will Shakspere, as well as the Northumberland Manuscript and all the parallels from Bacon's Promus of Formularies and Elegancies.
One further note about "respected academics" and their supposed expertise. I heartily concur with the following observation written by one of my colleagues: "The ignorance of today’s scholars is especially blissful. They think the authorship dispute was all settled years ago. They are largely ignorant even of Bacon’s acknowledged works. A second reason for devaluing their opinion is that, regrettably, sound judgment is not always among the qualities which achieve eminence for a scholar. An aptitude for sitting in libraries, digging out information, is distinct from an ability to evaluate the evidence so unearthed." Emery ( talk) 20:38, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Smatprt - wikipedia must meet the most rigorous standards in order to support its credibility. The study of Bacon the man - over centuries in fact - has attracted frequent fringe theorists determined to reveal some 'hidden' facet (most notably around the occult). The book by Mathews actually covers these well and tries to sweep away some of the cobwebs. Contaldo80 ( talk) 09:34, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree with you that the operative word is "practicing". No one but the person himself, in this case Francis, can really describe what "inclinations" he has. In the case of Francis, however, . . . . . he did suggest what his inclinations are: that being that "masculine love" (the term used at that time for homosexuality) was not what he would envision in an ideal society (his Utopian creation in "The New Atlantis"). Arion 3x3 ( talk) 17:55, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Is this really as inconsistent as you think? It's perfectly logical that he was attracted to other men, but would not see that as an ideal. It would be very odd in 17th century England to find a man 'out and proud'. He would have viewed at as a shameful weakness. Besides which he wrote New Atlantis when he was an old man - even his ardour is likely to have cooled over time! Contaldo80 ( talk) 21:10, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
You are correct that The New Atlantis extols chasteness (and also extols the new order he envisioned for the settlements in North America). However the "wasn't going to talk about it" argument holds no more weight in this year of 2008 than it did in last year's discussions in the archives. The absence of evidence - is not evidence! Arion 3x3 ( talk) 21:02, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
I am completely opposed to the removal of the Marguerite material. Although I can understand the concerns expressed by qp10qp, I would also like to caution all of us to remain careful not to engage censorship of material that we personally find implausible. We need to have a proportionate representation of the matter, rather than to challenge the work of writers on the subject. Much of this work may strike one as not widely acknowledged, but as long as there are scholars, researchers, and authors in print who have written of the Francis and Marguerite relationship, their theories are validly referenceable on Wikipedia.
Arion 3x3 - I can see you have great respect for Francis Bacon, and I do actually admire that. You've shown that your passionate about the subject. But dare I say that you're being a little disingenuous here? You say I would also like to caution all of us to remain careful not to engage censorship of material that we personally find implausible. But above you have argued quite strongly for the removal of text dealing with Bacon's sexuality on the grounds that the sources are biased and described events couldn't have happened! My main opposition to the inclusion of the text on Marguerite is that the modern academic sources are too old. If it's an important and valid issue then it will easily be covered in recent academic material - if it's not then it's for the fringes. But also, if you feel strongly about this then perhaps you should add some text to the actual wikipedia article on Marguerite. Why concentrate just on Bacon? Contaldo80 ( talk) 18:00, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to raise this issue because of one of his quotations: "A little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion." This would put some weight to argument that he was a theist, and a materialist worldview cuts pretty effectively all supernatural beings from existance. Of course Bacon can be also agnostic or something else, but in the light of this quotation it is most likely that he was a Christian of some sort. More research on this subject is needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.50.9.167 ( talk) 14:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Everyone in Elizabethan England was at least nominally a Christian. You weren't really permitted to be anything else. That doesn't discount the possibility, however, that Bacon may have personally doubted the existance of God and rejected Christian theology. Outwardly though he would still have been required to conform and practice the faith (particularly if holding senior public office). Contaldo80 ( talk) 13:51, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Francis wrote of his disappointment with the clerical power struggles in both Roman Catholicism and the Church of England. However it is impossible to read his writings and speculate that he may have personally doubted the existance of God and rejected Christian theology. Emery ( talk) 07:28, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Francis Bacon was opposed to superstition and clerical repression, but I have not seen evidence that he was a "materialist" who regarded "the spiritual and the material spheres as completely separate." That conclusion does not follow from Bacon's advocacy of experimentation and inductive science for the "Advancement of Learning". He believed that the same Nature that was ascribed to God was also in every person. In his essay "Of Atheism" he wrote: "They that deny a God, destroy man's nobility; for certainly man is of kin to the beasts, by his body; and, if he be not of kin to God, by his spirit, he is a base and ignoble creature. . . . So man, when he resteth and assureth himself, upon divine protection and favor, gathered a force and faith, which human nature in itself could not obtain." Emery ( talk) 07:14, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Not only did Francis Bacon consider an all-pervading God to be the essential nature of reality, but he considered the process of scientific discovery part of the activity which sets us apart from merely "kin to the beasts" but as "kin to God, by his spirit". Zagorin's labeling of him as a "materialist" under any stretch of logic ("modern" or otherwise) does not follow. For example, on page 45 of "Of the Advancement of Learning" Francis Bacon wrote: "For so he (King Solomon) saith expressly, The Glory of God is to conceale a thing, but the Glory of a King is to find it out. As if according to that innocent and affectionate play of children, the Divine Majesty took delight to hide his works, to the end to have them found out, and as if Kings could not obtain a greater Honour, then to be God's play-fellowes in that game, especially considering the great command they have of wits and means, whereby the investigation of all things may be perfected." Emery ( talk) 14:44, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes it is true that Zagorin claimed that Francis Bacon believed "that these two kinds of learning should be kept separate". I have never read anything written by Francis Bacon that would make one think that this was his actual viewpoint. I believe, if I truly understand the point of Emery, that this is the problem with such an interpretation by Zagorin. I apologize for this, but it is a necessity to point out that the statement of Zagorin that "materialism was a ... basic feature of his philosophy" is not the truth. Sujata Kapila ( talk) 20:32, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Francis Bacon was not a materialist. He was, in fact, opposed to materialism. This is a fact that is seen throughout all of his writings and is strongly communicated in his essay "A Confession of Faith"(and also "Of Atheism") where he clearly lays out his beliefs. To say that he was a materialist is like saying that President Obama is a Republican. It is evident to me that someone who calls Bacon a materialist either has never read his works or is mistaking him for someone else. "I had rather believe all the fables in the Legend, and the Talmud, and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind."(Bacon, Of Atheism) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.156.150.246 ( talk) 20:02, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Who put the timeline on this page? It looks awesome, and I might want to use it on other pages, but I'm not entirely sure how to use it. Where did it come from and how does it work? Tea and crumpets ( t c) 18:58, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Can someone specifically cite Bacon's presence in parliament on the date the Gunpowder Plot was supposed to have taken place? - Hexhand ( talk) 23:09, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Removed several edits by User:Smatprt concerning the sexuality. Despite the claim that this was a npov edit it clearly was not. "Numerous scholars believe that Bacon was either bisexual or homosexual" and then "In opposition to these theories, novelist Ross Jackson..." is certainly no npov edit. The "350 years of debate" is certainly also debatable, since this question has only been debated amongst Bacon scholars in recent years. The mention of the bisexual/homosexual theory as it is seems a lot more npov than those recent edits. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 01:29, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
(1) I stand by my statements - and they can easily be verifed by anyone who objectively evaluates the facts. And why this insistance on discussing the sexuality of a historical figure who was never known to be involved in any campaign for sexual rights, and never involved in any sexual scandals?
(2) Misrepresentation of my position is not helpful. It is not true that I have a "personal agenda to censor the entire subject" - I have clearly stated my support for an unbiased, balanced presentation of both sides of the issue.
(3) Using the argument that the article synopsis of the article from the Journal of Homosexuality is "properly referenced" and therefore should be included as part of the text of a biography of Francis Bacon was opposed by editors from the very beginning of the attempts by Smatprt and Contraldo to insert it - and will continue to be opposed. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 12:24, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
As pointed out by Nandesuka, giving both sides of the issue, in a balanced way without bias, is indeed what this biographical article needs. The article synopsis from the Journal of Homosexuality does not belong in this biography. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 14:53, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Having studied the writings of Francis Bacon since 1968, and as the holder of a large collection of books and journals by and about Francis Bacon, I can say that I know him through his writings. In The Cambridge History of English and American Literature in 18 Volumes (1907–21) Volume IV, Chapter XIV. The Beginnings of English Philosophy Section 9: Francis Bacon is the following helpful comment:
Careless editing over the last 4 days resulted in a messed up reference section. I reverted to the 19 July version after unsuccessfully trying to fix the problems. Any further edits on the article should be done by editors who also preview the article to see if their edits do not ravage the Notes section. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 13:37, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Just look at the messed up "Notes" section that you put back [ [1]] (the operative words are look at that section) and then look at the version that I just restored (edited by Edward321) [ [2]] I would suggest that if you do not understand the problem, that you do not keep re-creating the problem after other editors have contributed to the article. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 17:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree - helpful suggestion. Contaldo80 ( talk) 18:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
The messed-up condition of the formatting of the reference notes section has again been re-created - a third time today after being fixed 3 times today - this time by Contaldo80: [ [3]] Arion 3x3 ( talk) 22:00, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Repeated repostings of condescending remarks directed towards another editor - regarding Wikipedia rules - are not helpful. There are reminders at the top of this discussion page that this page is for discussing improvements to the format and content of the Francis Bacon article. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 19:47, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
The techniques of false accusation and inaccurate misrepresentation of the facts are well-known methods used to try to discredit someone. Nevertheless these do not help to improve the article.
I do agree with you about the shallow nature of adding a few names to an "info box" under the heading of "Influenced by" without any context. Yes, you and I know that Machiavelli was praised by Bacon and others as a political realist who attempted to expose the dark side of political manipulation and malfeasance by governmental leaders. That being said, public perceptions need to be considered when assembling a reference resource such as Wikipedia.
Yes Francis Bacon always disapproved of torture. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 19:38, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm really not happy about the comments above whereby Arion 3x3 accuses me of having messed up the references yet again. I did no such thing - I did not revert, I just removed the text on Marguerite which the contributor had inserted yet again. This goes to the heart of the issue of 'ownership'; this is making this article very awkward and unpleasant to work on. Contaldo80 ( talk) 19:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. Apologies then for having done that. Contaldo80 ( talk) 17:20, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
At present, in an encyclopedic article on, IMHO, one of the most influential writers ever in any language, a great philosopher of inductive scientific method and a major influence on the Enlightenment and, as has been remarked, on those who brought about both the English and American revolutions, people currently will find a section about his apparently having never died, with sources which are - how to put this? - largely unscholarly, non NPOV and non-peer reviewed. This section is actually larger than the section on his works.
I would certainly defend the secret and occult stuff's inclusion somewhere in the Encyclopedia - the Rosicrucian material is informative. But surely either they should be moved to a separate article from the main one, or else their fringe status should be highlighted.
Certainly the Works and main biographical section needs some expanding.-- Straw Cat ( talk) 18:17, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Personally I blame the Ross Jackson book - it's 'romanticised' Bacon too much! Contaldo80 ( talk) 18:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I will be moving the Faked Death section to a separate article, Fringe and Occult Theories about Francis Bacon, in the next few days, in accordance with the rules in WP:Fringe. Possibly other sections should go there too. -- Straw Cat ( talk) 23:50, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi - I deleted the bulk of the occult section as I thought there wasn't much need for it as there's a whole article about it now - I transferred the text to that page instead. Otherwise it seems that we risk ending up repeating the same information in several different articles. My thought was that we should give a summary and then flag the link to the main article on the occult so that interested people can read more about it. While I personally don't agree with the claims being made, I have little objection to having the material (unlike the parentage stuff which in my view is frankly barking). My main concern is that the whole Bacon article is already way too long and would benefit more from including stuff on Bacon's political career and philosophical works. Happy to seek views though. Contaldo80 ( talk) 08:17, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Lead sentence described Bacon as "an English philosopher, statesman, and essayist." I've changed "essayist" to "author".
Bacon wrote essays, and he wrote a
novel,
The New Atlantis.
"Author" means "The writer of a book, article, or other text." (
http://www.bartleby.com/61/19/A0531900.html ) The category "author" includes the category "essayist", but not vice-versa.
Therefore, "author" is both correct and comprehensive, and "essayist", though correct, is not comprehensive.
(Personally, I'd also be perfectly happy with "philosopher, statesman, and writer," if we prefer that.)
Comments? --
201.17.36.246 (
talk)
13:23, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Can someone specifically cite Bacon's presence in parliament on the date the Gunpowder Plot was supposed to have taken place? Without it, we might have to excise ANY commentary that suggests he was. - Hexhand ( talk) 18:31, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
The article requires a complete list of the man's published works: I'm amazed that this has been neglected, while so much else has been done.
1597: Bacon publishes On Plantations, evidently his most direct foray into the debates over slavery, colonialism, etc., massively influential in its day.
By contrast, The Interpretation of Nature was unknown and ignored until long after his death (among those who sought to revive interest in it was 20th c. philosopher Karl Popper, who had been rather biased against Bacon prior to reading it, and became a fan thereafter; Popper complained that Interpretation had been treated rather flippantly by Bacon's editors, including those who compiled his complete works, etc.).
Much else of import will follow from a simple list of the man's published works.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.170.212.34 ( talk) 04:14, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
The article ends on an odd note, and it seems that several catagorie heads could be combined or even eliminated. I'm going to have a go at addressing this. If anyone has an issue with this, please discuss at this thread. Cheers! Smatprt ( talk) 16:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Had a go at the least of works - grateful for thoughts on any ommissions. Is everyone agreed that we should also merge the article on Idols of the Mind with that on the Baconian Method? Makes no sense having them separate. Contaldo80 ( talk) 12:39, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
In the last several weeks there has been the repeated deleting - without discussion - of the section on Bacon's influence on new religions of the 20th century. Since Francis Bacon has been the focal point of these spiritual organization, which have had millions of adherents over the last 75 years, this is entirely appropriate. Just as it is appropriate to include popular culture influences under the "Modern portrayals" subheading which details cinema and television portrayals of Francis Bacon. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 15:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
I have to disagree with you. Francis Bacon is the key historical person around which numerous new religions have been established in the 20th century. Estimates of their membership have ranged from 1 million to several million. If significant historical figures have had religions established around them, such as Siddhartha Gautama, Confucius, or Francis Bacon, then this should be documented in Wikipedia. It makes no difference if a Wikipedia editor considers any particular religious belief to be outlandish. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 04:00, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm frankly fed up that everytime we try and put in some well-sourced mainstream reference to Bacon's sexuality we have to have an endless debate on whether it should or should not be included. Yet here we have a group of contributors who are clearly pushing POV - that Francis Bacon was an 'ascended master' and that he's the leader of some religious band or the other. And clearly to be an ascended master you could never be homosexual (God forbid!) There is even less evidence of this - how are we going to prove it! Smartprt is absolutely right to be firm on whether Bacon is an ascended master or not - it's frankly ruining and distorting the article. Contaldo80 ( talk) 16:23, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Let's face it. Francis Bacon has been an important influence upon new religious movements since the 30's; I think this should be part of the main article Sage1224 12.71.96.2 ( talk) 01:13, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Contrary to what you say, I moved the Bacon's Still Alive stuff to a new article back in July, with a full explanation, but perhaps proponents of this stuff were all at the Ascended Master Summer School then.
I'd noted that Arion 3x3, under this and his various other predecessor names, is obviously deeply interested in and knowleagble about this subject and Theosophy, to judge from his many contributions to the articles on Ascended Masters, and removal of critical material in them. Fine.
But Wikipedia has evolved rules, and one of them, endorsed by Jimbo Wales himself, states that you shouldn't present beliefs in an article, which are held by a tiny amount of people. And he says that is a rule, not open for debate. The belief that Francis Bacon literally never died is held by a very very small set of people. In an article about one of the pioneers of scientific evidential method, the continual insertion of this stuff amounts to vandalism. So please be warned - there are procedures to deal with it.-- Straw Cat ( talk) 19:53, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Well said. I respect individuals' personal beliefs, but we should avoid attempts to build respectability for a theme purely through association. Contaldo80 ( talk) 17:02, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
As a newcomer to this article, I must weigh in against you. These fringe theories actually have little to do with Bacon, and much more to do with the believers in them. A separate article is the cottect place for them. Bob ( QaBob) 04:59, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
There is something clear : you can find a homophobic biographer for every historical homosexual character, even for Verlaine and Rimbaud, denying their homosexuality : in the case of Francis Bacon, it is Nieves Matthews, who was a known homophobic woman. That's nothing more complicated than that. It's just not important. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.200.61.98 ( talk) 22:10, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
Whether or not Bacon was, in fact, homosexual (or for that matter bisexual) is a matter of dispute (note the lonnng discussions above, and in the archive) -- that said, whether he was gay or bi or whatever is interesting as a discussion of the arguments, and that stuff IS encyclopedic; however, adding Bacon to the LGBT list crosses the line of presenting arguments, and instead providing conclusions. Removing the LGBT-list link, and unless consensus indicates he should be listed as LGBT, it shouldn't be added back in again. JasonDUIUC ( talk) 20:59, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Fine, I can go with that. It's been a long slog trying to resolve this issue in any case. Incidentally though I still don't think there's as much of a dispute as some commentators would have us believe. Part of the problem in my view comes when personal religious beliefs (however noble or well-intentioned) interfere with objective historical analysis. The LGBT category label is in any case slightly anachronistic. Although I do have reservations about adopting a 'consensus-seeking' approach - that presupposes one can have a rational debate. Contaldo80 ( talk) 15:11, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
At present the article both claims that he was a member of several secret societies, and disputes this... not optimal, I would say. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. ( talk) 00:51, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
As this article deals primarily with personages and locations in England, it ought to be written in Standard English and not General American. 203.202.95.141 ( talk) 05:07, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
我很喜欢培根的作品
我很喜欢培根的作品 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.71.191.242 ( talk) 10:45, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Might we consider semi-protecting this article - at the very least allowing only signed in users to contribute? It gets an awful lot of childish vandalism - often extremely unfunny "jokes" about pork products. This makes it very hard for me to follow some of the debate on changes and improvements - and there is a danger that efforts to make the article better (instead of fire-fighting) are being severely compromised. Contaldo80 ( talk) 15:51, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
I have recently uploaded contemporary engravings of Bacon by Wenceslas Hollar, galleried below. Feel free to use or not use. Dcoetzee 09:39, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
There is a conspiracy theory which claims that Francis Bacon and count Saint Germain were the same person. I don't know much about this theory, but it seems to be part of the series of urban legends surrounding Bacon. [5] ADM ( talk) 22:10, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
You're right. It's covered under the Occult theories about Francis Bacon article which can be accessed through this main biographical one. Regards. Contaldo80 ( talk) 08:47, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
This, from the section titled "The New Instrument":
seems to conflict with this from Avicenna's Canon of Medicine:
As it stands, this Bacon article might lead the reader to believe Bacon developed the methods. So I've tried to clarify that. Cheers, Anthony ( talk) 18:53, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
I've added to the list of Bacon's works. I didn't really know how to add the citation within the article for such a discontinuous list (or even whether it was appropriate), but these references come from this source:
JKeck ( talk) 19:20, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Just added some other works of Bacon's that I found in the Farrington reference (for biblographical info., see "Sources"). JKeck ( talk) 16:49, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
"He died at Lord Arundel's home[15] on 9 April 1626, leaving assets of about £7,000 (2009 US$11,183) and debts to the amount of £22,000 (2009 US$35,147)."
These amounts of money are not the current value of the pound, they are the value of the pound in 1626. I don't know how to find out how much the debts and assets are worth in today's money, perhaps someone else can help? Until then, the dollar conversions should probably be removed, as they're converting as if £7,000 is a 2009 value, not a 1626 value.
87.236.252.100 ( talk) 13:57, 14 October 2009 (UTC)